President Trump announces military strikes on Iran: Operation Epic Fury

110,126 Views | 2422 Replies | Last: 11 min ago by The_barBEARian
Porteroso
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KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

If Iranian regime change is the final goal…..bombing Iran's oil facilities and power plants are a must.

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

Fight to win…..period

Using the strategic bombing of during the second world ware to advocate for the destruction of Iran's oil and power infrastructure is complete non sequitur.

Comparing the current world oil market within the context of this conflict to the energy reality and constraints during WWII is as useful as comparing apples to carburetors.

Awful lot of Warhawks in this thread for folks that generally voted for the "peace" president.

People said they voted for Trump explicitly because both Hilary and Kamela would start wars with Iran. People in this thread.

One of those people now wants Trump to raze the oil production of Iran to the ground. It's incredible. Tribal zealots have such short memories.


If the goal is regime change…..you have to do what's necessary to force it.

US history provides several examples.

Buy a book….do it with your own money.
Your mommy will be so proud.

Wanna bet whether there is real regime change when we leave?

And no, you dont do "whatever it takes" to force regime change. You weigh whether any given action is worth it or not. You never go full Hitler.


Your knowledge of US history is so limited as to be frightening.

In what way would this show ignorance of US history, dumbo?
KaiBear
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Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

If Iranian regime change is the final goal…..bombing Iran's oil facilities and power plants are a must.

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

Fight to win…..period

Using the strategic bombing of during the second world ware to advocate for the destruction of Iran's oil and power infrastructure is complete non sequitur.

Comparing the current world oil market within the context of this conflict to the energy reality and constraints during WWII is as useful as comparing apples to carburetors.

Awful lot of Warhawks in this thread for folks that generally voted for the "peace" president.

People said they voted for Trump explicitly because both Hilary and Kamela would start wars with Iran. People in this thread.

One of those people now wants Trump to raze the oil production of Iran to the ground. It's incredible. Tribal zealots have such short memories.


If the goal is regime change…..you have to do what's necessary to force it.

US history provides several examples.

Buy a book….do it with your own money.
Your mommy will be so proud.

Wanna bet whether there is real regime change when we leave?

And no, you dont do "whatever it takes" to force regime change. You weigh whether any given action is worth it or not. You never go full Hitler.


Your knowledge of US history is so limited as to be frightening.

In what way would this show ignorance of US history, dumbo?


A. You characterize everything in the most simplistic terms.
B. Mention only the most woke used bogeyman. Have no awareness of Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot.
C. Have repeatedly demonstrated zero knowledge of US tactics in WW1, WW2, Korea , Vietnam, Iraq , or the Philippines .



READ child.

I do not have the time or interest in educating a blank mind.
Realitybites
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KaiBear said:

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

We are a much poorer and weaker country today than we were in 1935

Lets you see the collapse of our currency from WW2 to 2020. Which doesn't account for the disaster that has occurred since then.
Sam Lowry
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303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

If Iranian regime change is the final goal…..bombing Iran's oil facilities and power plants are a must.

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

Fight to win…..period

Using the strategic bombing of during the second world ware to advocate for the destruction of Iran's oil and power infrastructure is complete non sequitur.

Comparing the current world oil market within the context of this conflict to the energy reality and constraints during WWII is as useful as comparing apples to carburetors.

Awful lot of Warhawks in this thread for folks that generally voted for the "peace" president.


Wrong

If you want regime change …..you destroy the ability of the mullah's to maintain control of the populace.

You do not let our entitled masses whine their way into half measures.

That merely kick the terrorist can down the road still again.






Please kindly explain how destroying the civilian power grid helps ensure regime change. Further disconnecting and punishing a reeling population seems like a poor plan to get them to act in our best interests.

By repeatedly bringing up "the entitled masses" and the "whiners" as you fully commit everyone to a lower quality of life due to rationing, you expose the absurdity of many claims you likely agree with about our own energy independence. If we really were energy independent, Iranian production or Hormuz wouldn't matter. But since reality isn't want you want it to be, and we do live in an integrated global market, it does matter. Assume you will be just fine with a 4 gallon a week gas ration and I am sure you have already started your victory garden.

Finally, once this glorious regime change is accomplished, then what? Do we leave a fledgling government with no infrastructure, ripe to be taken over by the next waive of zealots? Or do we stay 20+ years and rebuild?

My kids will be paying off the last time we spent 20 years in a country to replace the regime with the same regime for the rest of their lives. I'd really rather not saddle my grandkids with the debt from this half baked boondoggle.


Iran has been killing Americans world wide for decades. Ok. A throw away point I will gladly concede as it is largely irrelevant to the actual situation here.

They had come to believe Americans were cowards . Infidels more concerned about immediate gratification and material accumulation. Technically partially correct, non-Muslims are, by definition, infidels. The rest is your opinion based on?

Should have fought this war at least 20 years ago; but each president ….Republican and Democrat knew the American people would retaliate politically and damage their party come election time. Pray tell, with what force were we going to bomb and then invade Iran 20 years ago? 20 years ago we were still very much in both Iraq and Afghanistan. 2006 would have been before the surge in Iraq and around the time much of the insurgency in both places was picking up steam and we were frantically trying to build enough MRAPs and ship up-armor kits to units to give them a chance in their HMMWVs.

Iran saw this ….and pushed the envelope with nukes. What have they done in the last 12 months that makes "now" the moment? Did we not impact their program at all with the strikes in 2025? Do we even know?

So here we are.

I do not like this war ….primarily because of all the Israeli influence within our government. yet you are advocating for its escalation?

However now that's it's begun it is vitally important that we win it. If you can't see that I am not going to spend 3000 words attempting to show you the reasons. Will you spend 5 works explaining what "winning" looks like to you? maybe if there is time, address my prior points and questions on "post-winning" Iran looks like (which you ignored entirely)?

Be it Iraq, Japan, Germany or Italy……regime change only occurs when the civilian population is fed up with the actions of their current dictator. The civilian population played little to no role in any of those instances. You can make a (weak) argument for Italy, but the overthrow of what was left of the fascist regime until mere weeks before the war ended in Europe and organized Axis military resistance in Italy effectively collapsed. Germany and Japan did not fall to civilian unrest, but rather, in Germany's case, two of the largest armies ever assembled on either side of its capital and for Japan, the instant destruction of two of its cities to the first operational atomic bombs. Iraq fell because of an overwhelming ground force routing what was left of a demoralized standing army using obsolete and worn out equipment as a result of 30 years of war and sanctions. Ask the marines in Fallujah how helpful the citizenry were in supporting the occupation.

Privation works…..war fatigue works. So are you advocating for carpet bombing and then a ground invasion?

Of course nothing I post is going to change your mind in the slightest. Probably not, but I dont think you are trying that hard to change my mind, just spinning talking points. You still havent addressed the most basic question I asked: what good does bombing the civilian power gird do?

Just hope Trump follows through, though I doubt he is strong enough to do so. What do you want trump to follow through on? There have been as many goals listed as there have been days in this conflict so far.


You seem to be advocating for full military invasion and occupation, though you wont yet come right out and say it. I think that is an absurd plan that will ruin this country for a long time (possibly forever).

Great post.
Osodecentx
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D. C. Bear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

If Iranian regime change is the final goal…..bombing Iran's oil facilities and power plants are a must.

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

Fight to win…..period

Using the strategic bombing of during the second world ware to advocate for the destruction of Iran's oil and power infrastructure is complete non sequitur.

Comparing the current world oil market within the context of this conflict to the energy reality and constraints during WWII is as useful as comparing apples to carburetors.

Awful lot of Warhawks in this thread for folks that generally voted for the "peace" president.

People said they voted for Trump explicitly because both Hilary and Kamela would start wars with Iran. People in this thread.

One of those people now wants Trump to raze the oil production of Iran to the ground. It's incredible. Tribal zealots have such short memories.


If the goal is regime change…..you have to do what's necessary to force it.

US history provides several examples.

Buy a book….do it with your own money.
Your mommy will be so proud.

Wanna bet whether there is real regime change when we leave?

And no, you dont do "whatever it takes" to force regime change. You weigh whether any given action is worth it or not. You never go full Hitler.


This is the measure of success having decided to respond to Iran's threat with this level of force. If the Islamic regime is left intact, it's a lot of blood and treasure for very little return. While the administration says this is not a regime change war, it needs to be.




Yep
KaiBear
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Realitybites said:

KaiBear said:

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

We are a much poorer and weaker country today than we were in 1935

Lets you see the collapse of our currency from WW2 to 2020. Which doesn't account for the disaster that has occurred since then.


In 1935 the United States was in the throes of the Great Depression.

The worst economy in US history.
Realitybites
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KaiBear said:

Realitybites said:

KaiBear said:

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

We are a much poorer and weaker country today than we were in 1935

Lets you see the collapse of our currency from WW2 to 2020. Which doesn't account for the disaster that has occurred since then.


In 1935 the United States was in the throes of the Great Depression.

The worst economy in US history.

Yes.

Shocking, isn't it?
boognish_bear
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FLBear5630
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boognish_bear said:



Joey trying to get back inside the tent...
whiterock
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FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

303Bear said:

whiterock said:

Danielsjackson114 said:

Firing and them hitting target are not the same

"Yeah, the mob put out a contact on me but the guy they hired is a terrible shot. No need to take any action."

How much time are you going to give them to improve their targeting systems.

What hit rate is acceptable…10%, 30%, etc…..?

How close are you going to let the rattlesnake get to your kids before you put your beer down and go kill it?




Using retaliatory actions taken after we attack is a really interesting way to justify the initial attack.

Also, you realize they now have the excuse to test/refine/figure out the variables and intricacies of long range targeting that they would have never been able to achieve with live fire tests, which would have brought UN resolutions and further rounds of sanctions.

At this point, which is it: is Iran collapsing and have we won (for the third or fourth time); or are they a dangerous threat to the very existence of the free world and we need $200 billion more in defense (ha) spending to keep the war going? They can't be both.

Where the hell have you been the last 40yrs.

I collected intel…human intel….on Iran, Hizballah, et al….for several years. Efforts to portray as innocuous to us a country which has killed thousands of Americans and is relentlessly (and successfully) pursuing nuclear weapons as well as the ballistic missile capability to deliver the us intellectual dishonest of the highest order.

Like this guy…..



No one doubts what you say on that.

The question is was the threat worth the cost of direct military action by the US?

For decades, we have had threats worth countering but not worth direct military action, such as the USSR, China and North Korea. We countered, but kept US forces out of direct military action, besides a few brushing incidents.

Iran was hands off because of the problems after. No one thought the US couldn't win a direct conflict, but what happens after and how do we get out? You know this because it is common reading, how did your models play out and what did your formulas show for the TOTAL equation, not just the threat inputs?

Second question, IF the full equation showed it was now worth the cost, why only Israel as partner? Even Great Britain and Canada, whom we can count on for standing with us were against? No one else, Turkey? Other Arab States?

You are great at showing Kelly on the threat, which is totally credible because he agrees with Trump. But, when he says there was no reason to do this now, it is not... That is what he said, not that Iran was not a threat, but we don't have to do THIS...

Pinhead argument.

They have demonstrated ballistic missile capability to at least the shores of the Arctic Ocean and admitted to having enough 60% enriched uranium make a dozen nukes. 60% enrich uranium is within weeks of nuclear weapon ready. They have made it clear they are going to rebuild their enrichment program.

Please explain EXACTLY how close you intend to let them get on capability of the weapons delivery system before you would act.

Please explain what level of confidence in intel you require before acting.

Please explain why their current ballistic misdile capability alone is not sufficient to do what we have done. It's okay to lob MIRV warheads into New Your City as long as they not nuclear? (Can you not hear the insanity of the argument yo are making?)

If you can dissuade a regime from pursuing policies that are unacceptable to you, how far are you going to let them go before you engage in diplomacy via other means?

Thank God we finally had a POTUS brave and wise enough to ignore ninnies like you and finish damned job.

KaiBear
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Realitybites said:

KaiBear said:

Realitybites said:

KaiBear said:

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

We are a much poorer and weaker country today than we were in 1935

Lets you see the collapse of our currency from WW2 to 2020. Which doesn't account for the disaster that has occurred since then.


In 1935 the United States was in the throes of the Great Depression.

The worst economy in US history.

Yes.

Shocking, isn't it?


No

The US is not remotely poorer than in 1935.

An estimated 25-30% of working Americans were unemployed.

Real privation existed throughout the country.

Heath care was minimal compared to today.

Our military is light years stronger than it was in 1935.
historian
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KaiBear said:

william said:

>>
A young Iranian who barely made it across the border into Turkey has delivered a gut-wrenching eyewitness account that's sending shockwaves worldwide.

He says the outside world has no real grasp of the horror unfolding inside Iran right now.

This isn't about arrests.

This isn't about beatings.

This is about deliberate killingscold, calculated executions on the streets.

Protesters are being shot straight in the chest, point-blank.

No warning shots.

No stray bullets.

No accidents.

Over and over again, with lethal intent. The death tolls trickling out online? According to him, they're nowhere near the truth.

The real numbers are far higherbodies vanish into mass graves, hospitals are raided to finish off the wounded, and corpses are stacked and hidden to erase the evidence.

Families are terrified into silence.

They beg for their loved ones' remains, sometimes forced to pay for the very bullets that killed them, then warned never to speak.

Fear seals every mouth. Inside Iran, people can't cry out without risking the same fate.

Outside, the world sees only fragmentsfiltered, delayed, minimized.

That enforced silence is the regime's most powerful weapon right now.

It lets the killing continue unchecked while the rest of the planet looks away.

The refugee's plea cuts through it: the scale of this bloodshed is being buried alive.

And until the world forces its eyes open, the true carnage stays hidden in the shadows...

The Ayatollah's barbarians are the reason Commander in Chief Trump must blast them back to the Stone Age..
<<


Those who want Trump to fail…..are going to ignore news such as this.



They would ignore such news in America because of TDS. They've been covering up Dem scandals & illegal alien murders for years.
historian
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whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

If Iranian regime change is the final goal…..bombing Iran's oil facilities and power plants are a must.

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

Fight to win…..period

Using the strategic bombing of during the second world ware to advocate for the destruction of Iran's oil and power infrastructure is complete non sequitur.

Comparing the current world oil market within the context of this conflict to the energy reality and constraints during WWII is as useful as comparing apples to carburetors.

Awful lot of Warhawks in this thread for folks that generally voted for the "peace" president.


Wrong

If you want regime change …..you destroy the ability of the mullah's to maintain control of the populace.

You do not let our entitled masses whine their way into half measures.

That merely kick the terrorist can down the road still again.






Please kindly explain how destroying the civilian power grid helps ensure regime change. Further disconnecting and punishing a reeling population seems like a poor plan to get them to act in our best interests.

By repeatedly bringing up "the entitled masses" and the "whiners" as you fully commit everyone to a lower quality of life due to rationing, you expose the absurdity of many claims you likely agree with about our own energy independence. If we really were energy independent, Iranian production or Hormuz wouldn't matter. But since reality isn't want you want it to be, and we do live in an integrated global market, it does matter. Assume you will be just fine with a 4 gallon a week gas ration and I am sure you have already started your victory garden.

Finally, once this glorious regime change is accomplished, then what? Do we leave a fledgling government with no infrastructure, ripe to be taken over by the next waive of zealots? Or do we stay 20+ years and rebuild?

My kids will be paying off the last time we spent 20 years in a country to replace the regime with the same regime for the rest of their lives. I'd really rather not saddle my grandkids with the debt from this half baked boondoggle.


Iran has been killing Americans world wide for decades. Ok. A throw away point I will gladly concede as it is largely irrelevant to the actual situation here.

They had come to believe Americans were cowards . Infidels more concerned about immediate gratification and material accumulation. Technically partially correct, non-Muslims are, by definition, infidels. The rest is your opinion based on?

Should have fought this war at least 20 years ago; but each president ….Republican and Democrat knew the American people would retaliate politically and damage their party come election time. Pray tell, with what force were we going to bomb and then invade Iran 20 years ago? 20 years ago we were still very much in both Iraq and Afghanistan. 2006 would have been before the surge in Iraq and around the time much of the insurgency in both places was picking up steam and we were frantically trying to build enough MRAPs and ship up-armor kits to units to give them a chance in their HMMWVs.

Iran saw this ….and pushed the envelope with nukes. What have they done in the last 12 months that makes "now" the moment? Did we not impact their program at all with the strikes in 2025? Do we even know?

So here we are.

I do not like this war ….primarily because of all the Israeli influence within our government. yet you are advocating for its escalation?

However now that's it's begun it is vitally important that we win it. If you can't see that I am not going to spend 3000 words attempting to show you the reasons. Will you spend 5 works explaining what "winning" looks like to you? maybe if there is time, address my prior points and questions on "post-winning" Iran looks like (which you ignored entirely)?

Be it Iraq, Japan, Germany or Italy……regime change only occurs when the civilian population is fed up with the actions of their current dictator. The civilian population played little to no role in any of those instances. You can make a (weak) argument for Italy, but the overthrow of what was left of the fascist regime until mere weeks before the war ended in Europe and organized Axis military resistance in Italy effectively collapsed. Germany and Japan did not fall to civilian unrest, but rather, in Germany's case, two of the largest armies ever assembled on either side of its capital and for Japan, the instant destruction of two of its cities to the first operational atomic bombs. Iraq fell because of an overwhelming ground force routing what was left of a demoralized standing army using obsolete and worn out equipment as a result of 30 years of war and sanctions. Ask the marines in Fallujah how helpful the citizenry were in supporting the occupation.

Privation works…..war fatigue works. So are you advocating for carpet bombing and then a ground invasion?

Of course nothing I post is going to change your mind in the slightest. Probably not, but I dont think you are trying that hard to change my mind, just spinning talking points. You still havent addressed the most basic question I asked: what good does bombing the civilian power gird do?

Just hope Trump follows through, though I doubt he is strong enough to do so. What do you want trump to follow through on? There have been as many goals listed as there have been days in this conflict so far.


You seem to be advocating for full military invasion and occupation, though you wont yet come right out and say it. I think that is an absurd plan that will ruin this country for a long time (possibly forever).

Great post.

…..as an example of straw man arguments sprinkled with inane assumptions. How can we take seriously the blathering of a person who believes the loss of functionality of one's power grid is NOT a strategic body blow to the defense of one's country?
historian
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Realitybites said:

KaiBear said:

william said:

>>
A young Iranian who barely made it across the border into Turkey has delivered a gut-wrenching eyewitness account that's sending shockwaves worldwide.

He says the outside world has no real grasp of the horror unfolding inside Iran right now.

This isn't about arrests.

This isn't about beatings.

This is about deliberate killingscold, calculated executions on the streets.

Protesters are being shot straight in the chest, point-blank.

No warning shots.

No stray bullets.

No accidents.

Over and over again, with lethal intent. The death tolls trickling out online? According to him, they're nowhere near the truth.

The real numbers are far higherbodies vanish into mass graves, hospitals are raided to finish off the wounded, and corpses are stacked and hidden to erase the evidence.

Families are terrified into silence.

They beg for their loved ones' remains, sometimes forced to pay for the very bullets that killed them, then warned never to speak.

Fear seals every mouth. Inside Iran, people can't cry out without risking the same fate.

Outside, the world sees only fragmentsfiltered, delayed, minimized.

That enforced silence is the regime's most powerful weapon right now.

It lets the killing continue unchecked while the rest of the planet looks away.

The refugee's plea cuts through it: the scale of this bloodshed is being buried alive.

And until the world forces its eyes open, the true carnage stays hidden in the shadows...

The Ayatollah's barbarians are the reason Commander in Chief Trump must blast them back to the Stone Age..
<<


Those who want Trump to fail…..are going to ignore news such as this.




Nobody wants Trump to fail.

We just don't want him to destroy the United States tilting at this particular windmill.

Fertilizer prices are up 44%.

What do you think that is going to do to food prices?

The Dems most definitely want Trump to fail. They carry their TDS so far as to be cheering against America & for our enemies. Right now some of them are in Cuba supporting the oppressive commie regime and using the suffering people as props for their propaganda! They are actually contributing to the people's misery by hogging scarce resources (electricity, for example) at a luxury hotel. Lohan Omar's daughter is with them.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

303Bear said:

whiterock said:

Danielsjackson114 said:

Firing and them hitting target are not the same

"Yeah, the mob put out a contact on me but the guy they hired is a terrible shot. No need to take any action."

How much time are you going to give them to improve their targeting systems.

What hit rate is acceptable…10%, 30%, etc…..?

How close are you going to let the rattlesnake get to your kids before you put your beer down and go kill it?




Using retaliatory actions taken after we attack is a really interesting way to justify the initial attack.

Also, you realize they now have the excuse to test/refine/figure out the variables and intricacies of long range targeting that they would have never been able to achieve with live fire tests, which would have brought UN resolutions and further rounds of sanctions.

At this point, which is it: is Iran collapsing and have we won (for the third or fourth time); or are they a dangerous threat to the very existence of the free world and we need $200 billion more in defense (ha) spending to keep the war going? They can't be both.

Where the hell have you been the last 40yrs.

I collected intel…human intel….on Iran, Hizballah, et al….for several years. Efforts to portray as innocuous to us a country which has killed thousands of Americans and is relentlessly (and successfully) pursuing nuclear weapons as well as the ballistic missile capability to deliver the us intellectual dishonest of the highest order.

Like this guy…..



No one doubts what you say on that.

The question is was the threat worth the cost of direct military action by the US?

For decades, we have had threats worth countering but not worth direct military action, such as the USSR, China and North Korea. We countered, but kept US forces out of direct military action, besides a few brushing incidents.

Iran was hands off because of the problems after. No one thought the US couldn't win a direct conflict, but what happens after and how do we get out? You know this because it is common reading, how did your models play out and what did your formulas show for the TOTAL equation, not just the threat inputs?

Second question, IF the full equation showed it was now worth the cost, why only Israel as partner? Even Great Britain and Canada, whom we can count on for standing with us were against? No one else, Turkey? Other Arab States?

You are great at showing Kelly on the threat, which is totally credible because he agrees with Trump. But, when he says there was no reason to do this now, it is not... That is what he said, not that Iran was not a threat, but we don't have to do THIS...

They have demonstrated ballistic missile capability to at least the shores of the Arctic Ocean and admitted to having enough 60% enriched uranium make a dozen nukes. 60% enrich uranium is within weeks of nuclear weapon ready.

And it's been that way for five years. If they were so bound and determined, where are the nukes?
Realitybites
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whiterock said:

How can we take seriously the blathering of a person who believes the loss of functionality of one's power grid is NOT a strategic body blow to the defense of one's country?



As serious as taking out the power grid of a country is, taking out the desalination plants of countries that rely on that process for 75%+ of their drinking water is far worse.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

If Iranian regime change is the final goal…..bombing Iran's oil facilities and power plants are a must.

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

Fight to win…..period

Using the strategic bombing of during the second world ware to advocate for the destruction of Iran's oil and power infrastructure is complete non sequitur.

Comparing the current world oil market within the context of this conflict to the energy reality and constraints during WWII is as useful as comparing apples to carburetors.

Awful lot of Warhawks in this thread for folks that generally voted for the "peace" president.


Wrong

If you want regime change …..you destroy the ability of the mullah's to maintain control of the populace.

You do not let our entitled masses whine their way into half measures.

That merely kick the terrorist can down the road still again.






Please kindly explain how destroying the civilian power grid helps ensure regime change. Further disconnecting and punishing a reeling population seems like a poor plan to get them to act in our best interests.

By repeatedly bringing up "the entitled masses" and the "whiners" as you fully commit everyone to a lower quality of life due to rationing, you expose the absurdity of many claims you likely agree with about our own energy independence. If we really were energy independent, Iranian production or Hormuz wouldn't matter. But since reality isn't want you want it to be, and we do live in an integrated global market, it does matter. Assume you will be just fine with a 4 gallon a week gas ration and I am sure you have already started your victory garden.

Finally, once this glorious regime change is accomplished, then what? Do we leave a fledgling government with no infrastructure, ripe to be taken over by the next waive of zealots? Or do we stay 20+ years and rebuild?

My kids will be paying off the last time we spent 20 years in a country to replace the regime with the same regime for the rest of their lives. I'd really rather not saddle my grandkids with the debt from this half baked boondoggle.


Iran has been killing Americans world wide for decades. Ok. A throw away point I will gladly concede as it is largely irrelevant to the actual situation here.

They had come to believe Americans were cowards . Infidels more concerned about immediate gratification and material accumulation. Technically partially correct, non-Muslims are, by definition, infidels. The rest is your opinion based on?

Should have fought this war at least 20 years ago; but each president ….Republican and Democrat knew the American people would retaliate politically and damage their party come election time. Pray tell, with what force were we going to bomb and then invade Iran 20 years ago? 20 years ago we were still very much in both Iraq and Afghanistan. 2006 would have been before the surge in Iraq and around the time much of the insurgency in both places was picking up steam and we were frantically trying to build enough MRAPs and ship up-armor kits to units to give them a chance in their HMMWVs.

Iran saw this ….and pushed the envelope with nukes. What have they done in the last 12 months that makes "now" the moment? Did we not impact their program at all with the strikes in 2025? Do we even know?

So here we are.

I do not like this war ….primarily because of all the Israeli influence within our government. yet you are advocating for its escalation?

However now that's it's begun it is vitally important that we win it. If you can't see that I am not going to spend 3000 words attempting to show you the reasons. Will you spend 5 works explaining what "winning" looks like to you? maybe if there is time, address my prior points and questions on "post-winning" Iran looks like (which you ignored entirely)?

Be it Iraq, Japan, Germany or Italy……regime change only occurs when the civilian population is fed up with the actions of their current dictator. The civilian population played little to no role in any of those instances. You can make a (weak) argument for Italy, but the overthrow of what was left of the fascist regime until mere weeks before the war ended in Europe and organized Axis military resistance in Italy effectively collapsed. Germany and Japan did not fall to civilian unrest, but rather, in Germany's case, two of the largest armies ever assembled on either side of its capital and for Japan, the instant destruction of two of its cities to the first operational atomic bombs. Iraq fell because of an overwhelming ground force routing what was left of a demoralized standing army using obsolete and worn out equipment as a result of 30 years of war and sanctions. Ask the marines in Fallujah how helpful the citizenry were in supporting the occupation.

Privation works…..war fatigue works. So are you advocating for carpet bombing and then a ground invasion?

Of course nothing I post is going to change your mind in the slightest. Probably not, but I dont think you are trying that hard to change my mind, just spinning talking points. You still havent addressed the most basic question I asked: what good does bombing the civilian power gird do?

Just hope Trump follows through, though I doubt he is strong enough to do so. What do you want trump to follow through on? There have been as many goals listed as there have been days in this conflict so far.


You seem to be advocating for full military invasion and occupation, though you wont yet come right out and say it. I think that is an absurd plan that will ruin this country for a long time (possibly forever).

Great post.

…..as an example of straw man arguments sprinkled with inane assumptions. How can we take seriously the blathering of a person who believes the loss of functionality of one's power grid is NOT a strategic body blow to the defense of one's country?


I don't see where he said that. What he said was that bombing cities doesn't win people over to your side, and history overwhelmingly confirms this. Besides, we don't have the ability to carpet bomb Iran even if we tried to.
303Bear
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

If Iranian regime change is the final goal…..bombing Iran's oil facilities and power plants are a must.

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

Fight to win…..period

Using the strategic bombing of during the second world ware to advocate for the destruction of Iran's oil and power infrastructure is complete non sequitur.

Comparing the current world oil market within the context of this conflict to the energy reality and constraints during WWII is as useful as comparing apples to carburetors.

Awful lot of Warhawks in this thread for folks that generally voted for the "peace" president.


Wrong

If you want regime change …..you destroy the ability of the mullah's to maintain control of the populace.

You do not let our entitled masses whine their way into half measures.

That merely kick the terrorist can down the road still again.






Please kindly explain how destroying the civilian power grid helps ensure regime change. Further disconnecting and punishing a reeling population seems like a poor plan to get them to act in our best interests.

By repeatedly bringing up "the entitled masses" and the "whiners" as you fully commit everyone to a lower quality of life due to rationing, you expose the absurdity of many claims you likely agree with about our own energy independence. If we really were energy independent, Iranian production or Hormuz wouldn't matter. But since reality isn't want you want it to be, and we do live in an integrated global market, it does matter. Assume you will be just fine with a 4 gallon a week gas ration and I am sure you have already started your victory garden.

Finally, once this glorious regime change is accomplished, then what? Do we leave a fledgling government with no infrastructure, ripe to be taken over by the next waive of zealots? Or do we stay 20+ years and rebuild?

My kids will be paying off the last time we spent 20 years in a country to replace the regime with the same regime for the rest of their lives. I'd really rather not saddle my grandkids with the debt from this half baked boondoggle.


Iran has been killing Americans world wide for decades. Ok. A throw away point I will gladly concede as it is largely irrelevant to the actual situation here.

They had come to believe Americans were cowards . Infidels more concerned about immediate gratification and material accumulation. Technically partially correct, non-Muslims are, by definition, infidels. The rest is your opinion based on?

Should have fought this war at least 20 years ago; but each president ….Republican and Democrat knew the American people would retaliate politically and damage their party come election time. Pray tell, with what force were we going to bomb and then invade Iran 20 years ago? 20 years ago we were still very much in both Iraq and Afghanistan. 2006 would have been before the surge in Iraq and around the time much of the insurgency in both places was picking up steam and we were frantically trying to build enough MRAPs and ship up-armor kits to units to give them a chance in their HMMWVs.

Iran saw this ….and pushed the envelope with nukes. What have they done in the last 12 months that makes "now" the moment? Did we not impact their program at all with the strikes in 2025? Do we even know?

So here we are.

I do not like this war ….primarily because of all the Israeli influence within our government. yet you are advocating for its escalation?

However now that's it's begun it is vitally important that we win it. If you can't see that I am not going to spend 3000 words attempting to show you the reasons. Will you spend 5 works explaining what "winning" looks like to you? maybe if there is time, address my prior points and questions on "post-winning" Iran looks like (which you ignored entirely)?

Be it Iraq, Japan, Germany or Italy……regime change only occurs when the civilian population is fed up with the actions of their current dictator. The civilian population played little to no role in any of those instances. You can make a (weak) argument for Italy, but the overthrow of what was left of the fascist regime until mere weeks before the war ended in Europe and organized Axis military resistance in Italy effectively collapsed. Germany and Japan did not fall to civilian unrest, but rather, in Germany's case, two of the largest armies ever assembled on either side of its capital and for Japan, the instant destruction of two of its cities to the first operational atomic bombs. Iraq fell because of an overwhelming ground force routing what was left of a demoralized standing army using obsolete and worn out equipment as a result of 30 years of war and sanctions. Ask the marines in Fallujah how helpful the citizenry were in supporting the occupation.

Privation works…..war fatigue works. So are you advocating for carpet bombing and then a ground invasion?

Of course nothing I post is going to change your mind in the slightest. Probably not, but I dont think you are trying that hard to change my mind, just spinning talking points. You still havent addressed the most basic question I asked: what good does bombing the civilian power gird do?

Just hope Trump follows through, though I doubt he is strong enough to do so. What do you want trump to follow through on? There have been as many goals listed as there have been days in this conflict so far.


You seem to be advocating for full military invasion and occupation, though you wont yet come right out and say it. I think that is an absurd plan that will ruin this country for a long time (possibly forever).

Great post.

…..as an example of straw man arguments sprinkled with inane assumptions. How can we take seriously the blathering of a person who believes the loss of functionality of one's power grid is NOT a strategic body blow to the defense of one's country?



Please point out any straw man arguments I made. I'll gladly discuss.

Do you really believe there is no redundancy built into the power supply of Iran's military bases? Destroying the power grid will do far more harm to the population at large, who already suffer plenty, than it will to the strategic position or operational capabilities of the Iranian military.

Still waiting for anyone to answer what happens after. Assume we bomb the hell out of them, install a new regime. Who pays to replace a country's worth of infrastructure we destroyed?

Another question I doubt you will answer, if there is a "deal" in the next week/month without any bombing and without regime change and we halt operations, is that a win or a loss in your book?
KaiBear
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historian said:

KaiBear said:

william said:

>>
A young Iranian who barely made it across the border into Turkey has delivered a gut-wrenching eyewitness account that's sending shockwaves worldwide.

He says the outside world has no real grasp of the horror unfolding inside Iran right now.

This isn't about arrests.

This isn't about beatings.

This is about deliberate killingscold, calculated executions on the streets.

Protesters are being shot straight in the chest, point-blank.

No warning shots.

No stray bullets.

No accidents.

Over and over again, with lethal intent. The death tolls trickling out online? According to him, they're nowhere near the truth.

The real numbers are far higherbodies vanish into mass graves, hospitals are raided to finish off the wounded, and corpses are stacked and hidden to erase the evidence.

Families are terrified into silence.

They beg for their loved ones' remains, sometimes forced to pay for the very bullets that killed them, then warned never to speak.

Fear seals every mouth. Inside Iran, people can't cry out without risking the same fate.

Outside, the world sees only fragmentsfiltered, delayed, minimized.

That enforced silence is the regime's most powerful weapon right now.

It lets the killing continue unchecked while the rest of the planet looks away.

The refugee's plea cuts through it: the scale of this bloodshed is being buried alive.

And until the world forces its eyes open, the true carnage stays hidden in the shadows...

The Ayatollah's barbarians are the reason Commander in Chief Trump must blast them back to the Stone Age..
<<


Those who want Trump to fail…..are going to ignore news such as this.



They would ignore such news in America because of TDS. They've been covering up Dem scandals & illegal alien murders for years.


All true.

There are now millions of Americans who hate capitalism, Christianity , and the traditional culture of the United States.

And the divide is only growing wider.
FLBear5630
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whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

303Bear said:

whiterock said:

Danielsjackson114 said:

Firing and them hitting target are not the same

"Yeah, the mob put out a contact on me but the guy they hired is a terrible shot. No need to take any action."

How much time are you going to give them to improve their targeting systems.

What hit rate is acceptable…10%, 30%, etc…..?

How close are you going to let the rattlesnake get to your kids before you put your beer down and go kill it?




Using retaliatory actions taken after we attack is a really interesting way to justify the initial attack.

Also, you realize they now have the excuse to test/refine/figure out the variables and intricacies of long range targeting that they would have never been able to achieve with live fire tests, which would have brought UN resolutions and further rounds of sanctions.

At this point, which is it: is Iran collapsing and have we won (for the third or fourth time); or are they a dangerous threat to the very existence of the free world and we need $200 billion more in defense (ha) spending to keep the war going? They can't be both.

Where the hell have you been the last 40yrs.

I collected intel…human intel….on Iran, Hizballah, et al….for several years. Efforts to portray as innocuous to us a country which has killed thousands of Americans and is relentlessly (and successfully) pursuing nuclear weapons as well as the ballistic missile capability to deliver the us intellectual dishonest of the highest order.

Like this guy…..



No one doubts what you say on that.

The question is was the threat worth the cost of direct military action by the US?

For decades, we have had threats worth countering but not worth direct military action, such as the USSR, China and North Korea. We countered, but kept US forces out of direct military action, besides a few brushing incidents.

Iran was hands off because of the problems after. No one thought the US couldn't win a direct conflict, but what happens after and how do we get out? You know this because it is common reading, how did your models play out and what did your formulas show for the TOTAL equation, not just the threat inputs?

Second question, IF the full equation showed it was now worth the cost, why only Israel as partner? Even Great Britain and Canada, whom we can count on for standing with us were against? No one else, Turkey? Other Arab States?

You are great at showing Kelly on the threat, which is totally credible because he agrees with Trump. But, when he says there was no reason to do this now, it is not... That is what he said, not that Iran was not a threat, but we don't have to do THIS...

Pinhead argument.

They have demonstrated ballistic missile capability to at least the shores of the Arctic Ocean and admitted to having enough 60% enriched uranium make a dozen nukes. 60% enrich uranium is within weeks of nuclear weapon ready. They have made it clear they are going to rebuild their enrichment program.

Please explain EXACTLY how close you intend to let them get on capability of the weapons delivery system before you would act.

Please explain what level of confidence in intel you require before acting.

Please explain why their current ballistic misdile capability alone is not sufficient to do what we have done. It's okay to lob MIRV warheads into New Your City as long as they not nuclear? (Can you not hear the insanity of the argument yo are making?)

If you can dissuade a regime from pursuing policies that are unacceptable to you, how far are you going to let them go before you engage in diplomacy via other means?

Thank God we finally had a POTUS brave and wise enough to ignore ninnies like you and finish damned job.



You are so full of it. You will justify anything Trump does and reverse yourself, make stuff up. All with little equations to make it look official. So now with the logic du jour, we are going to attack anyone that has ballistic missile technology over 2500 km and doesn't like us? N Korea? China? Russia? Pakistan?

More importantly how are you going to find the enriched material? It can be anywhere.

The pinhead argument is to go into this with no idea where the material is, say we will count on the people rising up and actually giving Iran a reason to use a weapon against the US. Up until now, it has been against Israel and in the Middle East.

Why wouldn't they before? Because of us attacking and destroying everything. But, since we are already doing that and we are killing every leader they bring forward what incentive is there for them NOT to take as many shots as they can?

Which leads us to ground troops and occupying. But that was your plan all along, right. Typical CIA type ****, which has played out so well in the past.

Name once it actually worked!
Sam Lowry
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FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

303Bear said:

whiterock said:

Danielsjackson114 said:

Firing and them hitting target are not the same

"Yeah, the mob put out a contact on me but the guy they hired is a terrible shot. No need to take any action."

How much time are you going to give them to improve their targeting systems.

What hit rate is acceptable…10%, 30%, etc…..?

How close are you going to let the rattlesnake get to your kids before you put your beer down and go kill it?




Using retaliatory actions taken after we attack is a really interesting way to justify the initial attack.

Also, you realize they now have the excuse to test/refine/figure out the variables and intricacies of long range targeting that they would have never been able to achieve with live fire tests, which would have brought UN resolutions and further rounds of sanctions.

At this point, which is it: is Iran collapsing and have we won (for the third or fourth time); or are they a dangerous threat to the very existence of the free world and we need $200 billion more in defense (ha) spending to keep the war going? They can't be both.

Where the hell have you been the last 40yrs.

I collected intel…human intel….on Iran, Hizballah, et al….for several years. Efforts to portray as innocuous to us a country which has killed thousands of Americans and is relentlessly (and successfully) pursuing nuclear weapons as well as the ballistic missile capability to deliver the us intellectual dishonest of the highest order.

Like this guy…..



No one doubts what you say on that.

The question is was the threat worth the cost of direct military action by the US?

For decades, we have had threats worth countering but not worth direct military action, such as the USSR, China and North Korea. We countered, but kept US forces out of direct military action, besides a few brushing incidents.

Iran was hands off because of the problems after. No one thought the US couldn't win a direct conflict, but what happens after and how do we get out? You know this because it is common reading, how did your models play out and what did your formulas show for the TOTAL equation, not just the threat inputs?

Second question, IF the full equation showed it was now worth the cost, why only Israel as partner? Even Great Britain and Canada, whom we can count on for standing with us were against? No one else, Turkey? Other Arab States?

You are great at showing Kelly on the threat, which is totally credible because he agrees with Trump. But, when he says there was no reason to do this now, it is not... That is what he said, not that Iran was not a threat, but we don't have to do THIS...

Pinhead argument.

They have demonstrated ballistic missile capability to at least the shores of the Arctic Ocean and admitted to having enough 60% enriched uranium make a dozen nukes. 60% enrich uranium is within weeks of nuclear weapon ready. They have made it clear they are going to rebuild their enrichment program.

Please explain EXACTLY how close you intend to let them get on capability of the weapons delivery system before you would act.

Please explain what level of confidence in intel you require before acting.

Please explain why their current ballistic misdile capability alone is not sufficient to do what we have done. It's okay to lob MIRV warheads into New Your City as long as they not nuclear? (Can you not hear the insanity of the argument yo are making?)

If you can dissuade a regime from pursuing policies that are unacceptable to you, how far are you going to let them go before you engage in diplomacy via other means?

Thank God we finally had a POTUS brave and wise enough to ignore ninnies like you and finish damned job.



You are so full of it. You will justify anything Trump does and reverse yourself, make stuff up. All with little equations to make it look official. So now with the logic du jour, we are going to attack anyone that has ballistic missile technology over 2500 km and doesn't like us? N Korea? China? Russia? Pakistan?

More importantly how are you going to find the enriched material? It can be anywhere.

The pinhead argument is to go into this with no idea where the material is, say we will count on the people rising up and actually giving Iran a reason to use a weapon against the US. Up until now, it has been against Israel and in the Middle East.

Why wouldn't they before? Because of us attacking and destroying everything. But, since we are already doing that and we are killing every leader they bring forward what incentive is there for them NOT to take as many shots as they can?

Which leads us to ground troops and occupying. But that was your plan all along, right. Typical CIA type ****, which has played out so well in the past.

Name once it actually worked!

It has worked only through various forms of skullduggery, none of which involved real popular support and none of which have succeeded in this case.
Oldbear83
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What a shameful post. I can see your grandfather telling everyone in late December 1941 how FDR was to blame for Pearl Harbor.

Disgusting how some will cheer against America, just because you hate our elected President.
FLBear5630
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Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

303Bear said:

whiterock said:

Danielsjackson114 said:

Firing and them hitting target are not the same

"Yeah, the mob put out a contact on me but the guy they hired is a terrible shot. No need to take any action."

How much time are you going to give them to improve their targeting systems.

What hit rate is acceptable…10%, 30%, etc…..?

How close are you going to let the rattlesnake get to your kids before you put your beer down and go kill it?




Using retaliatory actions taken after we attack is a really interesting way to justify the initial attack.

Also, you realize they now have the excuse to test/refine/figure out the variables and intricacies of long range targeting that they would have never been able to achieve with live fire tests, which would have brought UN resolutions and further rounds of sanctions.

At this point, which is it: is Iran collapsing and have we won (for the third or fourth time); or are they a dangerous threat to the very existence of the free world and we need $200 billion more in defense (ha) spending to keep the war going? They can't be both.

Where the hell have you been the last 40yrs.

I collected intel…human intel….on Iran, Hizballah, et al….for several years. Efforts to portray as innocuous to us a country which has killed thousands of Americans and is relentlessly (and successfully) pursuing nuclear weapons as well as the ballistic missile capability to deliver the us intellectual dishonest of the highest order.

Like this guy…..



No one doubts what you say on that.

The question is was the threat worth the cost of direct military action by the US?

For decades, we have had threats worth countering but not worth direct military action, such as the USSR, China and North Korea. We countered, but kept US forces out of direct military action, besides a few brushing incidents.

Iran was hands off because of the problems after. No one thought the US couldn't win a direct conflict, but what happens after and how do we get out? You know this because it is common reading, how did your models play out and what did your formulas show for the TOTAL equation, not just the threat inputs?

Second question, IF the full equation showed it was now worth the cost, why only Israel as partner? Even Great Britain and Canada, whom we can count on for standing with us were against? No one else, Turkey? Other Arab States?

You are great at showing Kelly on the threat, which is totally credible because he agrees with Trump. But, when he says there was no reason to do this now, it is not... That is what he said, not that Iran was not a threat, but we don't have to do THIS...

Pinhead argument.

They have demonstrated ballistic missile capability to at least the shores of the Arctic Ocean and admitted to having enough 60% enriched uranium make a dozen nukes. 60% enrich uranium is within weeks of nuclear weapon ready. They have made it clear they are going to rebuild their enrichment program.

Please explain EXACTLY how close you intend to let them get on capability of the weapons delivery system before you would act.

Please explain what level of confidence in intel you require before acting.

Please explain why their current ballistic misdile capability alone is not sufficient to do what we have done. It's okay to lob MIRV warheads into New Your City as long as they not nuclear? (Can you not hear the insanity of the argument yo are making?)

If you can dissuade a regime from pursuing policies that are unacceptable to you, how far are you going to let them go before you engage in diplomacy via other means?

Thank God we finally had a POTUS brave and wise enough to ignore ninnies like you and finish damned job.



You are so full of it. You will justify anything Trump does and reverse yourself, make stuff up. All with little equations to make it look official. So now with the logic du jour, we are going to attack anyone that has ballistic missile technology over 2500 km and doesn't like us? N Korea? China? Russia? Pakistan?

More importantly how are you going to find the enriched material? It can be anywhere.

The pinhead argument is to go into this with no idea where the material is, say we will count on the people rising up and actually giving Iran a reason to use a weapon against the US. Up until now, it has been against Israel and in the Middle East.

Why wouldn't they before? Because of us attacking and destroying everything. But, since we are already doing that and we are killing every leader they bring forward what incentive is there for them NOT to take as many shots as they can?

Which leads us to ground troops and occupying. But that was your plan all along, right. Typical CIA type ****, which has played out so well in the past.

Name once it actually worked!

It has worked only through various forms of skullduggery, none of which involved real popular support and none of which have succeeded in this case.


It cant succeed, without a presence after to enforce. This is another boondoggle that will result in US commitment for 20 years.

This is Israel's war. They got a proxy to fight for them.
boognish_bear
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ATL Bear
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KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

If Iranian regime change is the final goal…..bombing Iran's oil facilities and power plants are a must.

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

Fight to win…..period

Using the strategic bombing of during the second world ware to advocate for the destruction of Iran's oil and power infrastructure is complete non sequitur.

Comparing the current world oil market within the context of this conflict to the energy reality and constraints during WWII is as useful as comparing apples to carburetors.

Awful lot of Warhawks in this thread for folks that generally voted for the "peace" president.

People said they voted for Trump explicitly because both Hilary and Kamela would start wars with Iran. People in this thread.

One of those people now wants Trump to raze the oil production of Iran to the ground. It's incredible. Tribal zealots have such short memories.


If the goal is regime change…..you have to do what's necessary to force it.

US history provides several examples.

Buy a book….do it with your own money.
Your mommy will be so proud.
How are these other regime changes in the region going? I'd suggest putting down these books on unrelated events and read some current situational analysis reports.

We can be "friends" with Islamic bad guys. We can't kill Islamism (the actual regime power). I suggest common economic interests as a good start. With Iran it's easy to identify what that is. Something we haven't had with them for almost half a century.
Oldbear83
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Thanks for the Islamic opinion.

I'm glad you spent time on it, less time for you to attack Jews or deface another synagogue.
ATL Bear
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D. C. Bear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

303Bear said:

KaiBear said:

If Iranian regime change is the final goal…..bombing Iran's oil facilities and power plants are a must.

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

Fight to win…..period

Using the strategic bombing of during the second world ware to advocate for the destruction of Iran's oil and power infrastructure is complete non sequitur.

Comparing the current world oil market within the context of this conflict to the energy reality and constraints during WWII is as useful as comparing apples to carburetors.

Awful lot of Warhawks in this thread for folks that generally voted for the "peace" president.

People said they voted for Trump explicitly because both Hilary and Kamela would start wars with Iran. People in this thread.

One of those people now wants Trump to raze the oil production of Iran to the ground. It's incredible. Tribal zealots have such short memories.


If the goal is regime change…..you have to do what's necessary to force it.

US history provides several examples.

Buy a book….do it with your own money.
Your mommy will be so proud.

Wanna bet whether there is real regime change when we leave?

And no, you dont do "whatever it takes" to force regime change. You weigh whether any given action is worth it or not. You never go full Hitler.


This is the measure of success having decided to respond to Iran's threat with this level of force. If the Islamic regime is left intact, it's a lot of blood and treasure for very little return. While the administration says this is not a regime change war, it needs to be.


The real question is what a changed regime looks like or means.
EatMoreSalmon
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KaiBear said:

Realitybites said:

KaiBear said:

Realitybites said:

KaiBear said:

During WW2 we bombed German occupied oil facilities in Europe and didn't give a **** about its price per barrel impact.

Same when we sank the entire Japanese fleet of oil tankers.

We are a much poorer and weaker country today than we were in 1935

Lets you see the collapse of our currency from WW2 to 2020. Which doesn't account for the disaster that has occurred since then.


In 1935 the United States was in the throes of the Great Depression.

The worst economy in US history.

Yes.

Shocking, isn't it?


No

The US is not remotely poorer than in 1935.

An estimated 25-30% of working Americans were unemployed.

Real privation existed throughout the country.

Heath care was minimal compared to today.

Our military is light years stronger than it was in 1935.


US Military was pretty pathetic in 1935. Less than 250,00 total in all branches.

https://www.military.com/off-duty/books/what-us-military-was-attack-pearl-harbor.html
Sam Lowry
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Oldbear83 said:

What a shameful post. I can see your grandfather telling everyone in late December 1941 how FDR was to blame for Pearl Harbor.

Disgusting how some will cheer against America, just because you hate our elected President.

That would make slightly more sense if FDR had launched an unprovoked bombing campaign against Japan like Trump just did against Iran.
Sam Lowry
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FLBear5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

FLBear5630 said:

whiterock said:

303Bear said:

whiterock said:

Danielsjackson114 said:

Firing and them hitting target are not the same

"Yeah, the mob put out a contact on me but the guy they hired is a terrible shot. No need to take any action."

How much time are you going to give them to improve their targeting systems.

What hit rate is acceptable…10%, 30%, etc…..?

How close are you going to let the rattlesnake get to your kids before you put your beer down and go kill it?




Using retaliatory actions taken after we attack is a really interesting way to justify the initial attack.

Also, you realize they now have the excuse to test/refine/figure out the variables and intricacies of long range targeting that they would have never been able to achieve with live fire tests, which would have brought UN resolutions and further rounds of sanctions.

At this point, which is it: is Iran collapsing and have we won (for the third or fourth time); or are they a dangerous threat to the very existence of the free world and we need $200 billion more in defense (ha) spending to keep the war going? They can't be both.

Where the hell have you been the last 40yrs.

I collected intel…human intel….on Iran, Hizballah, et al….for several years. Efforts to portray as innocuous to us a country which has killed thousands of Americans and is relentlessly (and successfully) pursuing nuclear weapons as well as the ballistic missile capability to deliver the us intellectual dishonest of the highest order.

Like this guy…..



No one doubts what you say on that.

The question is was the threat worth the cost of direct military action by the US?

For decades, we have had threats worth countering but not worth direct military action, such as the USSR, China and North Korea. We countered, but kept US forces out of direct military action, besides a few brushing incidents.

Iran was hands off because of the problems after. No one thought the US couldn't win a direct conflict, but what happens after and how do we get out? You know this because it is common reading, how did your models play out and what did your formulas show for the TOTAL equation, not just the threat inputs?

Second question, IF the full equation showed it was now worth the cost, why only Israel as partner? Even Great Britain and Canada, whom we can count on for standing with us were against? No one else, Turkey? Other Arab States?

You are great at showing Kelly on the threat, which is totally credible because he agrees with Trump. But, when he says there was no reason to do this now, it is not... That is what he said, not that Iran was not a threat, but we don't have to do THIS...

Pinhead argument.

They have demonstrated ballistic missile capability to at least the shores of the Arctic Ocean and admitted to having enough 60% enriched uranium make a dozen nukes. 60% enrich uranium is within weeks of nuclear weapon ready. They have made it clear they are going to rebuild their enrichment program.

Please explain EXACTLY how close you intend to let them get on capability of the weapons delivery system before you would act.

Please explain what level of confidence in intel you require before acting.

Please explain why their current ballistic misdile capability alone is not sufficient to do what we have done. It's okay to lob MIRV warheads into New Your City as long as they not nuclear? (Can you not hear the insanity of the argument yo are making?)

If you can dissuade a regime from pursuing policies that are unacceptable to you, how far are you going to let them go before you engage in diplomacy via other means?

Thank God we finally had a POTUS brave and wise enough to ignore ninnies like you and finish damned job.



You are so full of it. You will justify anything Trump does and reverse yourself, make stuff up. All with little equations to make it look official. So now with the logic du jour, we are going to attack anyone that has ballistic missile technology over 2500 km and doesn't like us? N Korea? China? Russia? Pakistan?

More importantly how are you going to find the enriched material? It can be anywhere.

The pinhead argument is to go into this with no idea where the material is, say we will count on the people rising up and actually giving Iran a reason to use a weapon against the US. Up until now, it has been against Israel and in the Middle East.

Why wouldn't they before? Because of us attacking and destroying everything. But, since we are already doing that and we are killing every leader they bring forward what incentive is there for them NOT to take as many shots as they can?

Which leads us to ground troops and occupying. But that was your plan all along, right. Typical CIA type ****, which has played out so well in the past.

Name once it actually worked!

It has worked only through various forms of skullduggery, none of which involved real popular support and none of which have succeeded in this case.


It cant succeed, without a presence after to enforce. This is another boondoggle that will result in US commitment for 20 years.

This is Israel's war. They got a proxy to fight for them.

True, I wasn't clear. It has sometimes been done covertly without an ongoing military presence. Failing that, I agree it would be a long-term commitment if it could be done at all. Which it can't, since we don't have a ground force remotely capable of invading Iran.
J.R.
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KaiBear said:

J.R. said:

KaiBear said:

J.R. said:

KaiBear said:

J.R. said:

KaiBear said:

J.R. said:

KaiBear said:

william said:

>>
A young Iranian who barely made it across the border into Turkey has delivered a gut-wrenching eyewitness account that's sending shockwaves worldwide.

He says the outside world has no real grasp of the horror unfolding inside Iran right now.

This isn't about arrests.

This isn't about beatings.

This is about deliberate killingscold, calculated executions on the streets.

Protesters are being shot straight in the chest, point-blank.

No warning shots.

No stray bullets.

No accidents.

Over and over again, with lethal intent. The death tolls trickling out online? According to him, they're nowhere near the truth.

The real numbers are far higherbodies vanish into mass graves, hospitals are raided to finish off the wounded, and corpses are stacked and hidden to erase the evidence.

Families are terrified into silence.

They beg for their loved ones' remains, sometimes forced to pay for the very bullets that killed them, then warned never to speak.

Fear seals every mouth. Inside Iran, people can't cry out without risking the same fate.

Outside, the world sees only fragmentsfiltered, delayed, minimized.

That enforced silence is the regime's most powerful weapon right now.

It lets the killing continue unchecked while the rest of the planet looks away.

The refugee's plea cuts through it: the scale of this bloodshed is being buried alive.

And until the world forces its eyes open, the true carnage stays hidden in the shadows...

The Ayatollah's barbarians are the reason Commander in Chief Trump must blast them back to the Stone Age..
<<


Those who want Trump to fail…..are going to ignore news such as this.



Total BS. Trump has gotten us into an unnecessary war that we don't need and certainly can't afford. Yeah, Trump's doing great stuff getting people slaughtered all over these places. You good with indesciminate killing of ours and others. I don't want him to fail. I've changed my tune. I want him to keep up the Disaster. Screw the country. I just gonna laugh all the way to the bank as Piggy does. Keep on Donnie! $$$$


The mullah's have been executing their own citizens for many years.

Which is why so many Iranians living overseas support Trumps actions.

Glad you are making money off all this.

Maybe the additional funds will bring you happiness.

I may be more of the content people you know, there Kai. Have always been comfortable in my own skin. People who aren't , generally aren't productive. Nothing I can do to change what Piggy has done to our country, guess I got my silver lining. Btw, I don't keep score anymore. Financial independence is nothing more than flexibility. I don't buy "stuff". ok, I have a bit of a guitar fetish..and travel and what goes with. 1 watch (not in your class), no labels on anything. Yuk


My friend I have no doubt you possess more wealth than myself.
However I have 'enough' to enjoy the same flexibility.

Honestly tired of international travel……but my wife still has a passion for it. Guilty as charged in regards to luxury watches. Some have turned out to be good investments; others are for pure enjoyment.

Our happiest moments are with our grandchildren. We see them almost every single day. As a result we now limit our trips away from them to 14 days.



International travel can be rough on an old man(trust me I know) another reason I'm getting around a lot while I can. I'm starting a company in Bangkok, btw. Interesting navigating the Thai govt. Thankfully, my partner is Bangkok local and know how to get things done. Her language skills don't hurt either. I'm real conversant in Thai, but would no consider myself fluent. she picks up on the nuance I miss. I used to have factories one country over in Viet Nam. Amazing how difference the 2 countries are.


What are the biggest differences ?

Viet Nam are more go-go full throttle . They work their ass off, but talk about sexist. My business partner is Vietnamese, so we had thousands of peeps doing hi tech assembly, test, ect. Never once have a seen a Viet names dude open a door for a women. its the other way around. most have a side piece. Govt. is corrupt, so you have to have a local to run interference. In Thailand, only Thais can own real estate (dirt) Foreigners can own or build the building, but can't own. Thais also , general have the Sabai, Sabai vibe which is they ain't in a hurry for much. Double edged sword. Most hospitable, loving people, but Western Business can be challenging. Still muddling through it. I've spend a lot of time in Asia on business during my corporate days and it was interesting. I haven't lived in Asia until now (last 3 months) and one thing I still struggle with is the time difference to the US (work day). So I have to put on trades at 8:30pm , wake up a couple times to check if important. About to be 10:00pm and off to bed , so I kinda miss the US business day. its odd


Interesting

Have never been to Thailand.

As the climate does not appeal to me.

Can barely tolerate returning to Europe most years. Tired of the crowds and airports.

I prefer the Big Horn mountains near Sheridan Wyoming.
Beautiful area with normal , nice , common sense possessing folks.





you know, I hadn't either till November when I decided to visit Thailand as it is my 45th country and check the box. Spent 3 weeks all over. Knew some Expats in Bangkok. Just fell in love with the city, people, culture. As far as the weather is concerned, we will see as we head into hot season. good thing is they know how to do it here relative to heat. I liken to NYC w/0 the attitude, Anger, ****tly subway ect. Everyone here including me live in very tall "condos" as they call them. Most are rentals. These building are self sufficed, rooftop pool, rooftop deck. Coworking spaces ect. don't need to leave if monsoon or really hot. Since I have been here in January, the weather has been great. I too don't like heat and humidity. Public Transport is fabulous (better than anywhere in the US) overground train and underground subway too. I'm a huge CO fan. I have a place in Southern Co. and spend most of the hot Dallas summers there prior to relocating.
KaiBear
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Sam Lowry said:

Oldbear83 said:

What a shameful post. I can see your grandfather telling everyone in late December 1941 how FDR was to blame for Pearl Harbor.

Disgusting how some will cheer against America, just because you hate our elected President.

That would make slightly more sense if FDR had launched an unprovoked bombing campaign against Japan like Trump just did against Iran.

Hate to break it to you, but long before the Japanese Pearl Harbor attack and while the United States was still 'neutral'...........FDR ordered the United States Navy to escort American and British merchant ships ( most carrying war supplies to Great Britain ) across the Atlantic.


AND TO HUNT DOWN AND DESTROY ANY GERMAN SUBMARINES.

One US destroyer was sunk in the attempt and another severly damaged.

HUNDREDS of US sailors were killed.

One of the reasons Hitler gave his associates for declaring war after Pearl Harbor was this exact undeclared naval war by FDR.


Oldbear83
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Only Teheran (and Sam) would claim the last 47 years is not provocation.
Sam Lowry
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KaiBear said:

Sam Lowry said:

Oldbear83 said:

What a shameful post. I can see your grandfather telling everyone in late December 1941 how FDR was to blame for Pearl Harbor.

Disgusting how some will cheer against America, just because you hate our elected President.

That would make slightly more sense if FDR had launched an unprovoked bombing campaign against Japan like Trump just did against Iran.

Hate to break it to you, but long before the Japanese Pearl Harbor attack and while the United States was still 'neutral'...........FDR ordered the United States Navy to escort American and British merchant ships ( most carrying war supplies to Great Britain ) across the Atlantic.


AND TO HUNT DOWN AND DESTROY ANY GERMAN SUBMARINES.

One US destroyer was sunk in the attempt and another severly damaged.

HUNDREDS of US sailors were killed.

One of the reasons Hitler gave his associates for declaring war after Pearl Harbor was this exact undeclared naval war by FDR.




I've mentioned all of that before and been shamed for doing so. The fact remains that we just Pearl-Harbored Iran in the midst of negotiations, and not vice versa.
 
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