YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

It's more like single-parent home...the last stat I saw was from 2015 and that 90+% of Texas inmates were from single-parent homes.

---

thanks to the slippery slope of no fault divorces

---

And government attempting to be the primary provider allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility.

---

That's a helluva statement. Have any sources to back that up?

BrooksBearLives said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

Oh. It's race that most strongly correlates with incarceration rates.

Here's a pretty interesting article from the Pew Research Center showing that African Americans, while only making 12% of the adult population of America, makes up 33% of the prison population of American prisons.

Economic status plays into it as well. But if it was a stronger indicator, the gap wouldn't be so ridiculously large.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/04/30/shrinking-gap-between-number-of-blacks-and-whites-in-prison/

Good news, the gap IS shrinking. So it's a start. But SOOOOO long to go.

Incarceration rates are one of the most stark examples of institutionalized racism. Things like huge differences in minimum sentences for crack vs cocaine (those drugs were incredibly split along racial lines). Examples of this go back to Jim Crow -which has had a legacy across generations.

Things will never be perfect. But we can work on it.

One interesting option is to remove race altogether from sentencing practices. Prosecutors would literally enter race-blind before deciding on the case.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/us/prosecutor-race-blind-charging.amp.html

---

Here we go again.

You think in static terms. We live in a dynamic world.

Black culture acts differently than white culture. That is a fact. Are you willing to discuss?

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

And that's it...You attribute your "success" to being lucky and riding on the coat tails of others. No wonder you feel guilty and entitled.

Some of us decided to forge our own path, regardless of the circumstances thrown our way and the obstacles we had to overcome.

When you ride coat tails and don't put in the effort....You get coat tails.

It's not hard to understand.

---

I've been blessed beyond belief. I was born to amazing parents who loved me and told me I could do anything, but also pushed me to actually do it.

They modeled love for each other and love for me. My father worked a ****ty job because it had good insurance -because as a cancer survivor, i needed it.

I'm pretty blessed with intelligence. I love reading and questioning everything.

Every time I've worked hard, it has paid off. Every time.

That's not the case with a LOT of people. I see it every day. I work my ass off every day. I work with my hands and my mind. I work hard to serve others.

But it's all a blessing. I haven't really EARNED any of it. That's an illusion.

I'm glad you're proud. Sounds like you have a lot to be proud of. You've accomplished a lot. But that's not the case for everyone.

Trump says he's a self-made man. Do you think he's right?

---

I see. So the only people who can "earn" it are those born poor or with no parents or with darker skin pigment? Sound about right?

---

You don't read. You seriously don't read.

NO ONE earns it.

I don't understand the weird need for some people to impress everyone with their life story. They sniff their own farts and invent these Horatio Alger stories for themselves because they aren't really a success if they didn't do everything themselves.

You're not "a man" if you think you've done everything on your own.

You're wrong. And you're less of a man if you think that.

This idea that we HAVE to be the hero of every story is childish and small. My father raised me to never trust a man of woman who is always the hero of their own story. Because they lack humility or any self awareness.

It's a very strange thing to get angry and insist you have earned everything you have.

As if your life wouldn't have been harder if you'd been born in a different country. Or without legs. Or the ability to see.

---

You, Sir, are just not a very nice person. We will leave it at that.

---

I'm not a nice person because I think hard work should pay off?

---

You and your Bud, Waco, seem to be a whole lot more about privilege than hard work. Reminds me of ole Barack's famous quote "you didn't build that!"

---

So I'm a bad person for thinking hard work should pay off?

Please answer the question.

---

I am all for hard work. That is what capitalism and free enterprise are all about. You are not a nice person for mocking and belittling a fellow poster (a veteran) who took the time to share his life experience. You almost sounded a little Donald Trumpish with your post.

---

If you are referring to me, I appreciate the support, but I don't interpret anything as belittling me or pissing on me.

I served so we could go through this exercise and help preserve it.

Different opinions make the world go around and while I may not agree with all opinions, I can respect the right to have them. That does not mean I respect the opinion.

Perhaps it's my own life experience and it's difficult for me to understand how any American doesn't have an opportunity and an actual chance at a good life.

Perhaps I have been to enough countries to understand what we have versus other countries...Perhaps I've seen real poverty (and that is rare in the U.S. by comparison).

One thing I will never agree with is that we should take from those that put forth whatever effort necessary to succeed in order to subsidize those that don't.

Obviously things happen in people's lives that can be devastating and some of those things are nearly impossible to overcome, given the means...That's when support is needed and I would be happy to contribute in that scenario.

That's one thing, but if the thought is that everyone who happens to be born white has some sort stairway to heaven to success is sadly mistaken.

I was born in Oakland, Calif...Tell me what my advantage and my "white privilege" was. I suggest you do your homework and you will figure out, I was the minority and wasn't blessed with anything but birth.

I suppose that's why I just don't agree. There was nothing extraordinary about me other than I just wanted to do better and figured out a way to do it...My initial principle was just outwork everybody else, and I did.

---

Being white doesn't mean your life is awesome or that your life was perfect. It just means the color of your skin is probably not a reason it was rough.

For those who argue against the idea of privilege, I use the example of able-bodied privilege. Do you think that your life isn't easier than someone in a wheelchair? Of course it is. You can use steps.

Does having legs that work make your life easy? No. Does it mean you're not a good person? Of course not. It just means that your life isn't ****ty because your legs work. That's privilege.

And no one is arguing that we "take away from those who have earned." We're just arguing that we all have a vested interest in having a world where there are steps and ramps. Because Stephen Hawking wouldn't have been able to do so much if we hadn't tried.

---

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Doc Holliday 2:04p, 6/14/19

"And wealth concentration ABSOLUTELY factors into lack of economic mobility. With money, is power. And people don't give up power willingly. They use that paper to concentrate more power and wealth."

---

Where is the lie? You're taking that out of context, which is pretty dishonest.

I was saying that steps need to be taken to allow opportunity and address the wealth gap. If we don't, it won't work out well. We were having an entire conversation about it and you pull that quote. Shame on you.

I'm for market based approaches.

---

I don't feel shame and nothing I posted was dishonest. It was your quote. I didn't state a opinion on the matter.

As you told another poster earlier.
BrooksBearLivesIn reply to ScottS 1:47p, 6/14/19

"So you're a mind-reader now?

Why bother going on a message board if you already know what everyone is going to say?"

Regarding above.

What are the market based steps you would like to see implemented? I am not aware of you posting any in this specific discussion. If you did please direct me to where I may have missed it.

If you haven't posted any steps a list would be helpful for a "conversation"?

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Indeed "Because they lack humility or any self awareness. "
BBL
Self awareness that to whom and where we are born is a huge matters more than they can admit.

---

No human being on this earth (whether they be black, white, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) had any control whatsoever over their birth or who their parents are. My parents both grew up in poverty and were able to rise above. My Dad joined and had a career in the Air Force and my Mom was a school teacher and then became a registered nurse. You would have been hard-pressed to convince either one of them that they grew up "privileged" just because they were born white.

---

Yup. My dad didn't get along with his father and dropped out of high school at 17 and enlisted in the Army. Was "privileged" to spend almost 2 years in Korea where he earned a Combat Infantry Badge and Bronze Star among other things. He came back and married my school-teacher mom. Worked with his hands all of his working life in non-climate controlled environments while continuing to serve in the Reserves and later, the National Guard.
His father before him spent several years in the depression looking at the back side of a mule as a subsistence farmer in the Hill Country working his in-law's place. My mom picked tobacco as a little girl to earn a little money to help put food on the table. My in-law's family were share croppers in Oklahoma for a few generations. Yeah, not feeling the myth of privilege here so much.

My ancestors have been on this continent since the late 17th century. As far as I can tell, that's 300 years of working the land, working in saw mills, or working with their hands for little more than the clothes on their backs and the food on their tables. I'm the first male in my line to graduate from college. I don't think most leftist pinheads have a clue with all of their identity politics and intersectionality BS.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

And that's it...You attribute your "success" to being lucky and riding on the coat tails of others. No wonder you feel guilty and entitled.

Some of us decided to forge our own path, regardless of the circumstances thrown our way and the obstacles we had to overcome.

When you ride coat tails and don't put in the effort....You get coat tails.

It's not hard to understand.

---

I've been blessed beyond belief. I was born to amazing parents who loved me and told me I could do anything, but also pushed me to actually do it.

They modeled love for each other and love for me. My father worked a ****ty job because it had good insurance -because as a cancer survivor, i needed it.

I'm pretty blessed with intelligence. I love reading and questioning everything.

Every time I've worked hard, it has paid off. Every time.

That's not the case with a LOT of people. I see it every day. I work my ass off every day. I work with my hands and my mind. I work hard to serve others.

But it's all a blessing. I haven't really EARNED any of it. That's an illusion.

I'm glad you're proud. Sounds like you have a lot to be proud of. You've accomplished a lot. But that's not the case for everyone.

Trump says he's a self-made man. Do you think he's right?

---

I see. So the only people who can "earn" it are those born poor or with no parents or with darker skin pigment? Sound about right?

---

You don't read. You seriously don't read.

NO ONE earns it.

I don't understand the weird need for some people to impress everyone with their life story. They sniff their own farts and invent these Horatio Alger stories for themselves because they aren't really a success if they didn't do everything themselves.

You're not "a man" if you think you've done everything on your own.

You're wrong. And you're less of a man if you think that.

This idea that we HAVE to be the hero of every story is childish and small. My father raised me to never trust a man of woman who is always the hero of their own story. Because they lack humility or any self awareness.

It's a very strange thing to get angry and insist you have earned everything you have.

As if your life wouldn't have been harder if you'd been born in a different country. Or without legs. Or the ability to see.

---

OMG. You have no clue at all.

Take your Marx/Engels ******** somewhere else. If you love this communist crap, then why not just move to one of the $h1thole communist countries that agree with you. You have a nice selection of Cuba, China, North Korea, Venezuela,.... take your pic. I'm sure we could take up an offering for a one-way ticket for your sorry ass. We will also pay to have your citizenship revoked, so you will never come back to our capitalist society again. My goodness you are sick. If you continue to believe the crap you are spouting, then you will never amount to anything in life. Go away and take your anti-American, loser ******** with you.

---

I'm a communist for thinking someone willing to work should have a chance to not be poor?

That is the definition of communism, now?

Y'all are off the deep-end.

---

You should easily recognize the deep-end, since that's where you reside.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

It's more like single-parent home...the last stat I saw was from 2015 and that 90+% of Texas inmates were from single-parent homes.

---

thanks to the slippery slope of no fault divorces

---

And government attempting to be the primary provider allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility.

---

That's a helluva statement. Have any sources to back that up?

---

LBJ's War on Poverty and the advent of food stamps resulted in reliance on the government tit and more specifically the dissolution of the family unit because it made the man's role in the house irrelevant. Look it up. It's been a bigger failure than Reagan's War on Drugs.

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

Oh. It's race that most strongly correlates with incarceration rates.

Here's a pretty interesting article from the Pew Research Center showing that African Americans, while only making 12% of the adult population of America, makes up 33% of the prison population of American prisons.

Economic status plays into it as well. But if it was a stronger indicator, the gap wouldn't be so ridiculously large.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/04/30/shrinking-gap-between-number-of-blacks-and-whites-in-prison/

Good news, the gap IS shrinking. So it's a start. But SOOOOO long to go.

Incarceration rates are one of the most stark examples of institutionalized racism. Things like huge differences in minimum sentences for crack vs cocaine (those drugs were incredibly split along racial lines). Examples of this go back to Jim Crow -which has had a legacy across generations.

Things will never be perfect. But we can work on it.

One interesting option is to remove race altogether from sentencing practices. Prosecutors would literally enter race-blind before deciding on the case.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/us/prosecutor-race-blind-charging.amp.html

---

Here we go again.

You think in static terms. We live in a dynamic world.

Black culture acts differently than white culture. That is a fact. Are you willing to discuss?

---

What am I supposed to say to that word-salad of a response? Who is saying the world is static? I'm talking about facts. These are facts right now.

Here's how discussion among serious adults work: someone will state an opinion and usually back it up with some sort of reliable source material to show it wasn't something they just made up. It shows why they believe what they believe.

Then another serious adult will respond in kind. Either agreeing, disagreeing, or asking questions about the first adult's methodology.

Notice how I didn't put space in there for insults, aspersions and snippy remarks?

Static? Did you hear a new word you're trying to work into your vernacular? Are you disagreeing with the FACT that African Americans make up 12% of the adult population but 33% of the prison population?

And please, don't start talking about "black culture." Stay in your lane.

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

And that's it...You attribute your "success" to being lucky and riding on the coat tails of others. No wonder you feel guilty and entitled.

Some of us decided to forge our own path, regardless of the circumstances thrown our way and the obstacles we had to overcome.

When you ride coat tails and don't put in the effort....You get coat tails.

It's not hard to understand.

---

I've been blessed beyond belief. I was born to amazing parents who loved me and told me I could do anything, but also pushed me to actually do it.

They modeled love for each other and love for me. My father worked a ****ty job because it had good insurance -because as a cancer survivor, i needed it.

I'm pretty blessed with intelligence. I love reading and questioning everything.

Every time I've worked hard, it has paid off. Every time.

That's not the case with a LOT of people. I see it every day. I work my ass off every day. I work with my hands and my mind. I work hard to serve others.

But it's all a blessing. I haven't really EARNED any of it. That's an illusion.

I'm glad you're proud. Sounds like you have a lot to be proud of. You've accomplished a lot. But that's not the case for everyone.

Trump says he's a self-made man. Do you think he's right?

---

I see. So the only people who can "earn" it are those born poor or with no parents or with darker skin pigment? Sound about right?

---

You don't read. You seriously don't read.

NO ONE earns it.

I don't understand the weird need for some people to impress everyone with their life story. They sniff their own farts and invent these Horatio Alger stories for themselves because they aren't really a success if they didn't do everything themselves.

You're not "a man" if you think you've done everything on your own.

You're wrong. And you're less of a man if you think that.

This idea that we HAVE to be the hero of every story is childish and small. My father raised me to never trust a man of woman who is always the hero of their own story. Because they lack humility or any self awareness.

It's a very strange thing to get angry and insist you have earned everything you have.

As if your life wouldn't have been harder if you'd been born in a different country. Or without legs. Or the ability to see.

---

You, Sir, are just not a very nice person. We will leave it at that.

---

I'm not a nice person because I think hard work should pay off?

---

You and your Bud, Waco, seem to be a whole lot more about privilege than hard work. Reminds me of ole Barack's famous quote "you didn't build that!"

---

So I'm a bad person for thinking hard work should pay off?

Please answer the question.

---

I am all for hard work. That is what capitalism and free enterprise are all about. You are not a nice person for mocking and belittling a fellow poster (a veteran) who took the time to share his life experience. You almost sounded a little Donald Trumpish with your post.

---

If you are referring to me, I appreciate the support, but I don't interpret anything as belittling me or pissing on me.

I served so we could go through this exercise and help preserve it.

Different opinions make the world go around and while I may not agree with all opinions, I can respect the right to have them. That does not mean I respect the opinion.

Perhaps it's my own life experience and it's difficult for me to understand how any American doesn't have an opportunity and an actual chance at a good life.

Perhaps I have been to enough countries to understand what we have versus other countries...Perhaps I've seen real poverty (and that is rare in the U.S. by comparison).

One thing I will never agree with is that we should take from those that put forth whatever effort necessary to succeed in order to subsidize those that don't.

Obviously things happen in people's lives that can be devastating and some of those things are nearly impossible to overcome, given the means...That's when support is needed and I would be happy to contribute in that scenario.

That's one thing, but if the thought is that everyone who happens to be born white has some sort stairway to heaven to success is sadly mistaken.

I was born in Oakland, Calif...Tell me what my advantage and my "white privilege" was. I suggest you do your homework and you will figure out, I was the minority and wasn't blessed with anything but birth.

I suppose that's why I just don't agree. There was nothing extraordinary about me other than I just wanted to do better and figured out a way to do it...My initial principle was just outwork everybody else, and I did.

---

Being white doesn't mean your life is awesome or that your life was perfect. It just means the color of your skin is probably not a reason it was rough.

For those who argue against the idea of privilege, I use the example of able-bodied privilege. Do you think that your life isn't easier than someone in a wheelchair? Of course it is. You can use steps.

Does having legs that work make your life easy? No. Does it mean you're not a good person? Of course not. It just means that your life isn't ****ty because your legs work. That's privilege.

And no one is arguing that we "take away from those who have earned." We're just arguing that we all have a vested interest in having a world where there are steps and ramps. Because Stephen Hawking wouldn't have been able to do so much if we hadn't tried.

---

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Doc Holliday 2:04p, 6/14/19

"And wealth concentration ABSOLUTELY factors into lack of economic mobility. With money, is power. And people don't give up power willingly. They use that paper to concentrate more power and wealth."

---

Where is the lie? You're taking that out of context, which is pretty dishonest.

I was saying that steps need to be taken to allow opportunity and address the wealth gap. If we don't, it won't work out well. We were having an entire conversation about it and you pull that quote. Shame on you.

I'm for market based approaches.

---

I don't feel shame and nothing I posted was dishonest. It was your quote. I didn't state a opinion on the matter.

As you told another poster earlier.
BrooksBearLivesIn reply to ScottS 1:47p, 6/14/19

"So you're a mind-reader now?

Why bother going on a message board if you already know what everyone is going to say?"

Regarding above.

What are the market based steps you would like to see implemented? I am not aware of you posting any in this specific discussion. If you did please direct me to where I may have missed it.

If you haven't posted any steps a list would be helpful for a "conversation"?

---

Listen, I've been responding to a lot of different people When they make specific points, I'll respond. But when people start asking me to do their homework for them, I check out. Either do the reading or don't.

The fact that you don't feel shame isn't exactly the statement you think it is.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

Oh. It's race that most strongly correlates with incarceration rates.

Here's a pretty interesting article from the Pew Research Center showing that African Americans, while only making 12% of the adult population of America, makes up 33% of the prison population of American prisons.

Economic status plays into it as well. But if it was a stronger indicator, the gap wouldn't be so ridiculously large.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/04/30/shrinking-gap-between-number-of-blacks-and-whites-in-prison/

Good news, the gap IS shrinking. So it's a start. But SOOOOO long to go.

Incarceration rates are one of the most stark examples of institutionalized racism. Things like huge differences in minimum sentences for crack vs cocaine (those drugs were incredibly split along racial lines). Examples of this go back to Jim Crow -which has had a legacy across generations.

Things will never be perfect. But we can work on it.

One interesting option is to remove race altogether from sentencing practices. Prosecutors would literally enter race-blind before deciding on the case.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/us/prosecutor-race-blind-charging.amp.html

---

Here we go again.

You think in static terms. We live in a dynamic world.

Black culture acts differently than white culture. That is a fact. Are you willing to discuss?

---

What am I supposed to say to that word-salad of a response? Who is saying the world is static? I'm talking about facts. These are facts right now.

Here's how discussion among serious adults work: someone will state an opinion and usually back it up with some sort of reliable source material to show it wasn't something they just made up. It shows why they believe what they believe.

Then another serious adult will respond in kind. Either agreeing, disagreeing, or asking questions about the first adult's methodology.

Notice how I didn't put space in there for insults, aspersions and snippy remarks?

Static? Did you hear a new word you're trying to work into your vernacular? Are you disagreeing with the FACT that African Americans make up 12% of the adult population but 33% of the prison population?

And please, don't start talking about "black culture." Stay in your lane.

---

Black males make up 6% of the population but make up over half of all murders. That's not stemming from accusations or arrests...that's actual proven crimes.

Care to explain why this is occurring?

curtpenn said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Indeed "Because they lack humility or any self awareness. "
BBL
Self awareness that to whom and where we are born is a huge matters more than they can admit.

---

No human being on this earth (whether they be black, white, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) had any control whatsoever over their birth or who their parents are. My parents both grew up in poverty and were able to rise above. My Dad joined and had a career in the Air Force and my Mom was a school teacher and then became a registered nurse. You would have been hard-pressed to convince either one of them that they grew up "privileged" just because they were born white.

---

Yup. My dad didn't get along with his father and dropped out of high school at 17 and enlisted in the Army. Was "privileged" to spend almost 2 years in Korea where he earned a Combat Infantry Badge and Bronze Star among other things. He came back and married my school-teacher mom. Worked with his hands all of his working life in non-climate controlled environments while continuing to serve in the Reserves and later, the National Guard.
His father before him spent several years in the depression looking at the back side of a mule as a subsistence farmer in the Hill Country working his in-law's place. My mom picked tobacco as a little girl to earn a little money to help put food on the table. My in-law's family were share croppers in Oklahoma for a few generations. Yeah, not feeling the myth of privilege here so much.

My ancestors have been on this continent since the late 17th century. As far as I can tell, that's 300 years of working the land, working in saw mills, or working with their hands for little more than the clothes on their backs and the food on their tables. I'm the first male in my line to graduate from college. I don't think most leftist pinheads have a clue with all of their identity politics and intersectionality BS.

---

So you're saying that their hard work paid off?

That's all I'm arguing for.

YoakDaddy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

It's more like single-parent home...the last stat I saw was from 2015 and that 90+% of Texas inmates were from single-parent homes.

---

thanks to the slippery slope of no fault divorces

---

And government attempting to be the primary provider allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility.

---

That's a helluva statement. Have any sources to back that up?

---

LBJ's War on Poverty and the advent of food stamps resulted in reliance on the government tit and more specifically the dissolution of the family unit because it made the man's role in the house irrelevant. Look it up. It's been a bigger failure than Reagan's War on Drugs.

---

So we have people on this thread arguing that no, poverty isn't that bad in this country.

Now we have you saying that there is poverty and that it only exists because of LBJ?

Like, there weren't poor people before LBJ? I think if you looked at the facts, you'd see that 90%+ of the people on public assistance are children, elderly or disabled. Most adults who do participate it are on it for less than a year through their entire lives.

Having programs that keep poor babies and elderly fed aren't the reason we have poor people.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

And that's it...You attribute your "success" to being lucky and riding on the coat tails of others. No wonder you feel guilty and entitled.

Some of us decided to forge our own path, regardless of the circumstances thrown our way and the obstacles we had to overcome.

When you ride coat tails and don't put in the effort....You get coat tails.

It's not hard to understand.

---

I've been blessed beyond belief. I was born to amazing parents who loved me and told me I could do anything, but also pushed me to actually do it.

They modeled love for each other and love for me. My father worked a ****ty job because it had good insurance -because as a cancer survivor, i needed it.

I'm pretty blessed with intelligence. I love reading and questioning everything.

Every time I've worked hard, it has paid off. Every time.

That's not the case with a LOT of people. I see it every day. I work my ass off every day. I work with my hands and my mind. I work hard to serve others.

But it's all a blessing. I haven't really EARNED any of it. That's an illusion.

I'm glad you're proud. Sounds like you have a lot to be proud of. You've accomplished a lot. But that's not the case for everyone.

Trump says he's a self-made man. Do you think he's right?

---

I see. So the only people who can "earn" it are those born poor or with no parents or with darker skin pigment? Sound about right?

---

You don't read. You seriously don't read.

NO ONE earns it.

I don't understand the weird need for some people to impress everyone with their life story. They sniff their own farts and invent these Horatio Alger stories for themselves because they aren't really a success if they didn't do everything themselves.

You're not "a man" if you think you've done everything on your own.

You're wrong. And you're less of a man if you think that.

This idea that we HAVE to be the hero of every story is childish and small. My father raised me to never trust a man of woman who is always the hero of their own story. Because they lack humility or any self awareness.

It's a very strange thing to get angry and insist you have earned everything you have.

As if your life wouldn't have been harder if you'd been born in a different country. Or without legs. Or the ability to see.

---

You, Sir, are just not a very nice person. We will leave it at that.

---

I'm not a nice person because I think hard work should pay off?

---

You and your Bud, Waco, seem to be a whole lot more about privilege than hard work. Reminds me of ole Barack's famous quote "you didn't build that!"

---

So I'm a bad person for thinking hard work should pay off?

Please answer the question.

---

I am all for hard work. That is what capitalism and free enterprise are all about. You are not a nice person for mocking and belittling a fellow poster (a veteran) who took the time to share his life experience. You almost sounded a little Donald Trumpish with your post.

---

If you are referring to me, I appreciate the support, but I don't interpret anything as belittling me or pissing on me.

I served so we could go through this exercise and help preserve it.

Different opinions make the world go around and while I may not agree with all opinions, I can respect the right to have them. That does not mean I respect the opinion.

Perhaps it's my own life experience and it's difficult for me to understand how any American doesn't have an opportunity and an actual chance at a good life.

Perhaps I have been to enough countries to understand what we have versus other countries...Perhaps I've seen real poverty (and that is rare in the U.S. by comparison).

One thing I will never agree with is that we should take from those that put forth whatever effort necessary to succeed in order to subsidize those that don't.

Obviously things happen in people's lives that can be devastating and some of those things are nearly impossible to overcome, given the means...That's when support is needed and I would be happy to contribute in that scenario.

That's one thing, but if the thought is that everyone who happens to be born white has some sort stairway to heaven to success is sadly mistaken.

I was born in Oakland, Calif...Tell me what my advantage and my "white privilege" was. I suggest you do your homework and you will figure out, I was the minority and wasn't blessed with anything but birth.

I suppose that's why I just don't agree. There was nothing extraordinary about me other than I just wanted to do better and figured out a way to do it...My initial principle was just outwork everybody else, and I did.

---

Being white doesn't mean your life is awesome or that your life was perfect. It just means the color of your skin is probably not a reason it was rough.

For those who argue against the idea of privilege, I use the example of able-bodied privilege. Do you think that your life isn't easier than someone in a wheelchair? Of course it is. You can use steps.

Does having legs that work make your life easy? No. Does it mean you're not a good person? Of course not. It just means that your life isn't ****ty because your legs work. That's privilege.

And no one is arguing that we "take away from those who have earned." We're just arguing that we all have a vested interest in having a world where there are steps and ramps. Because Stephen Hawking wouldn't have been able to do so much if we hadn't tried.

---

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Doc Holliday 2:04p, 6/14/19

"And wealth concentration ABSOLUTELY factors into lack of economic mobility. With money, is power. And people don't give up power willingly. They use that paper to concentrate more power and wealth."

---

Where is the lie? You're taking that out of context, which is pretty dishonest.

I was saying that steps need to be taken to allow opportunity and address the wealth gap. If we don't, it won't work out well. We were having an entire conversation about it and you pull that quote. Shame on you.

I'm for market based approaches.

---

I don't feel shame and nothing I posted was dishonest. It was your quote. I didn't state a opinion on the matter.

As you told another poster earlier.
BrooksBearLivesIn reply to ScottS 1:47p, 6/14/19

"So you're a mind-reader now?

Why bother going on a message board if you already know what everyone is going to say?"

Regarding above.

What are the market based steps you would like to see implemented? I am not aware of you posting any in this specific discussion. If you did please direct me to where I may have missed it.

If you haven't posted any steps a list would be helpful for a "conversation"?

---

Listen, I've been responding to a lot of different people When they make specific points, I'll respond. But when people start asking me to do their homework for them, I check out. Either do the reading or don't.

The fact that you don't feel shame isn't exactly the statement you think it is.

---

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Doc Holliday 10:04a

"Then another serious adult will respond in kind. Either agreeing, disagreeing, or asking questions about the first adult's methodology."

Here is "my homework" on what on points have you made to address the wealth gap.

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to RD2WINAGNBEAR86 11:14p, 6/13/19

"But it's not perfect. Right now, many people are fully "employed" and still poor. That's not right."

BrooksBearLives 11:22p, 6/13/19
"Which this squares a lot of what I see. That there are a LOT of people struggling. I know people losing farms and really in a rough spot."

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Bruce Leroy 12:31p, 6/14/19
"That's not right. If someone is industrious and hard-working and trying, they shouldn't be poor. Not in a meritocracy."

Doc HollidayIn reply to BrooksBearLives 10:24a, 6/14/19
Have any solutions to make the economy boom BBL?

You no response.

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Doc Holliday 12:58p, 6/14/19
"You're saying that wealth disparity isn't a thing? It has grown exponentially. This is a fact."

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to redfish961 4:05p, 6/17/19
"We're just arguing that we all have a vested interest in having a world where there are steps and ramps. Because Stephen Hawking wouldn't have been able to do so much if we hadn't tried."

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to LIB,MR BEARS 12:06a, 6/18/19
"Things will never be perfect. But we can work on it."

Based on above here was my previous Direct question to you

"What are the market based steps you would like to see implemented? I am not aware of you posting any in this specific discussion. If you did please direct me to where I may have missed it.

If you haven't posted any steps a list would be helpful for a "conversation"?"

Your Response

"Listen, I've been responding to a lot of different people .When they make specific points, I'll respond. But when people start asking me to do their homework for them, I check out. Either do the reading or don't."


Now that I have done "my homework". What are the market based steps you would like to see implemented?

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Bruce Leroy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

And that's it...You attribute your "success" to being lucky and riding on the coat tails of others. No wonder you feel guilty and entitled.

Some of us decided to forge our own path, regardless of the circumstances thrown our way and the obstacles we had to overcome.

When you ride coat tails and don't put in the effort....You get coat tails.

It's not hard to understand.

---

I've been blessed beyond belief. I was born to amazing parents who loved me and told me I could do anything, but also pushed me to actually do it.

They modeled love for each other and love for me. My father worked a ****ty job because it had good insurance -because as a cancer survivor, i needed it.

I'm pretty blessed with intelligence. I love reading and questioning everything.

Every time I've worked hard, it has paid off. Every time.

That's not the case with a LOT of people. I see it every day. I work my ass off every day. I work with my hands and my mind. I work hard to serve others.

But it's all a blessing. I haven't really EARNED any of it. That's an illusion.

I'm glad you're proud. Sounds like you have a lot to be proud of. You've accomplished a lot. But that's not the case for everyone.

Trump says he's a self-made man. Do you think he's right?

---

I see. So the only people who can "earn" it are those born poor or with no parents or with darker skin pigment? Sound about right?

---

You don't read. You seriously don't read.

NO ONE earns it.

I don't understand the weird need for some people to impress everyone with their life story. They sniff their own farts and invent these Horatio Alger stories for themselves because they aren't really a success if they didn't do everything themselves.

You're not "a man" if you think you've done everything on your own.

You're wrong. And you're less of a man if you think that.

This idea that we HAVE to be the hero of every story is childish and small. My father raised me to never trust a man of woman who is always the hero of their own story. Because they lack humility or any self awareness.

It's a very strange thing to get angry and insist you have earned everything you have.

As if your life wouldn't have been harder if you'd been born in a different country. Or without legs. Or the ability to see.

---

You, Sir, are just not a very nice person. We will leave it at that.

---

I'm not a nice person because I think hard work should pay off?

---

You and your Bud, Waco, seem to be a whole lot more about privilege than hard work. Reminds me of ole Barack's famous quote "you didn't build that!"

---

So I'm a bad person for thinking hard work should pay off?

Please answer the question.

---

I am all for hard work. That is what capitalism and free enterprise are all about. You are not a nice person for mocking and belittling a fellow poster (a veteran) who took the time to share his life experience. You almost sounded a little Donald Trumpish with your post.

---

If you are referring to me, I appreciate the support, but I don't interpret anything as belittling me or pissing on me.

I served so we could go through this exercise and help preserve it.

Different opinions make the world go around and while I may not agree with all opinions, I can respect the right to have them. That does not mean I respect the opinion.

Perhaps it's my own life experience and it's difficult for me to understand how any American doesn't have an opportunity and an actual chance at a good life.

Perhaps I have been to enough countries to understand what we have versus other countries...Perhaps I've seen real poverty (and that is rare in the U.S. by comparison).

One thing I will never agree with is that we should take from those that put forth whatever effort necessary to succeed in order to subsidize those that don't.

Obviously things happen in people's lives that can be devastating and some of those things are nearly impossible to overcome, given the means...That's when support is needed and I would be happy to contribute in that scenario.

That's one thing, but if the thought is that everyone who happens to be born white has some sort stairway to heaven to success is sadly mistaken.

I was born in Oakland, Calif...Tell me what my advantage and my "white privilege" was. I suggest you do your homework and you will figure out, I was the minority and wasn't blessed with anything but birth.

I suppose that's why I just don't agree. There was nothing extraordinary about me other than I just wanted to do better and figured out a way to do it...My initial principle was just outwork everybody else, and I did.

---

Being white doesn't mean your life is awesome or that your life was perfect. It just means the color of your skin is probably not a reason it was rough.

For those who argue against the idea of privilege, I use the example of able-bodied privilege. Do you think that your life isn't easier than someone in a wheelchair? Of course it is. You can use steps.

Does having legs that work make your life easy? No. Does it mean you're not a good person? Of course not. It just means that your life isn't ****ty because your legs work. That's privilege.

And no one is arguing that we "take away from those who have earned." We're just arguing that we all have a vested interest in having a world where there are steps and ramps. Because Stephen Hawking wouldn't have been able to do so much if we hadn't tried.

---

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Doc Holliday 2:04p, 6/14/19

"And wealth concentration ABSOLUTELY factors into lack of economic mobility. With money, is power. And people don't give up power willingly. They use that paper to concentrate more power and wealth."

---

Where is the lie? You're taking that out of context, which is pretty dishonest.

I was saying that steps need to be taken to allow opportunity and address the wealth gap. If we don't, it won't work out well. We were having an entire conversation about it and you pull that quote. Shame on you.

I'm for market based approaches.

---

I don't feel shame and nothing I posted was dishonest. It was your quote. I didn't state a opinion on the matter.

As you told another poster earlier.
BrooksBearLivesIn reply to ScottS 1:47p, 6/14/19

"So you're a mind-reader now?

Why bother going on a message board if you already know what everyone is going to say?"

Regarding above.

What are the market based steps you would like to see implemented? I am not aware of you posting any in this specific discussion. If you did please direct me to where I may have missed it.

If you haven't posted any steps a list would be helpful for a "conversation"?

---

Listen, I've been responding to a lot of different people When they make specific points, I'll respond. But when people start asking me to do their homework for them, I check out. Either do the reading or don't.

The fact that you don't feel shame isn't exactly the statement you think it is.

---

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Doc Holliday 10:04a

"Then another serious adult will respond in kind. Either agreeing, disagreeing, or asking questions about the first adult's methodology."

Here is "my homework" on what on points have you made to address the wealth gap.

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to RD2WINAGNBEAR86 11:14p, 6/13/19

"But it's not perfect. Right now, many people are fully "employed" and still poor. That's not right."

BrooksBearLives 11:22p, 6/13/19
"Which this squares a lot of what I see. That there are a LOT of people struggling. I know people losing farms and really in a rough spot."

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Bruce Leroy 12:31p, 6/14/19
"That's not right. If someone is industrious and hard-working and trying, they shouldn't be poor. Not in a meritocracy."

Doc HollidayIn reply to BrooksBearLives 10:24a, 6/14/19
Have any solutions to make the economy boom BBL?

You no response.

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to Doc Holliday 12:58p, 6/14/19
"You're saying that wealth disparity isn't a thing? It has grown exponentially. This is a fact."

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to redfish961 4:05p, 6/17/19
"We're just arguing that we all have a vested interest in having a world where there are steps and ramps. Because Stephen Hawking wouldn't have been able to do so much if we hadn't tried."

BrooksBearLivesIn reply to LIB,MR BEARS 12:06a, 6/18/19
"Things will never be perfect. But we can work on it."

Based on above here was my previous Direct question to you

"What are the market based steps you would like to see implemented? I am not aware of you posting any in this specific discussion. If you did please direct me to where I may have missed it.

If you haven't posted any steps a list would be helpful for a "conversation"?"

Your Response

"Listen, I've been responding to a lot of different people .When they make specific points, I'll respond. But when people start asking me to do their homework for them, I check out. Either do the reading or don't."


Now that I have done "my homework". What are the market based steps you would like to see implemented?

---

I'm kind of flattered you're taking the time to catalogue my amazing, fantastic, pretty much perfect posts.

But hey, yo'ure doing it in a nearly unreadable fashion. Seriously, my eyes hurt. Work on that, please.

Also, I missed a question from Doc. THE HORROR.

Market-based actions to address inequality? How about stopping tax subsidies to giant organizations shipping jobs and profits overseas, to support jobs here?

Actually, Elizabeth Warren's "Economic Patriotism" plan would be a fantastic start. And before you get all triggered, even Tucker Carlson loves it.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/06/06/tucker_carlson_elizabeth_warrens_economic_patriotism_plan_sounds_like_donald_trump_at_his_best.html

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

It's more like single-parent home...the last stat I saw was from 2015 and that 90+% of Texas inmates were from single-parent homes.

---

thanks to the slippery slope of no fault divorces

---

And government attempting to be the primary provider allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility.

---

That's a helluva statement. Have any sources to back that up?

---

LBJ's War on Poverty and the advent of food stamps resulted in reliance on the government tit and more specifically the dissolution of the family unit because it made the man's role in the house irrelevant. Look it up. It's been a bigger failure than Reagan's War on Drugs.

---

So we have people on this thread arguing that no, poverty isn't that bad in this country.

Now we have you saying that there is poverty and that it only exists because of LBJ?

Like, there weren't poor people before LBJ? I think if you looked at the facts, you'd see that 90%+ of the people on public assistance are children, elderly or disabled. Most adults who do participate it are on it for less than a year through their entire lives.

Having programs that keep poor babies and elderly fed aren't the reason we have poor people.

---

My original comment was about government attempting to be the primary provider thus allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility as backed up by LBJ's failed war on poverty. You fail once again in your whatabout-ism and attempt to prove it succeeded especially in light of incarceration rates that are higher for those from single parent homes. LBJ's war on poverty has essentially killed the minority family unit. Good try tho....and BTW the poverty in this country is much better than that in other 3rd world countries where they don't have a food kitchen, Salvation Army, etc. that will provide necessities and their priority for the day is finding water.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

bearassnekkid said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

redfish961 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Good Lord you are accident of birth and think you hit a triple.

---

Good grief....you certainly have your excuses all figured out.

---

Excuses? I'm not following you.
90% of Who I am and what I have is being born white, Methodist, in the USA, to good parents. None of my success is mine to claim.

---

And that's it...You attribute your "success" to being lucky and riding on the coat tails of others. No wonder you feel guilty and entitled.

Some of us decided to forge our own path, regardless of the circumstances thrown our way and the obstacles we had to overcome.

When you ride coat tails and don't put in the effort....You get coat tails.

It's not hard to understand.

---

I've been blessed beyond belief. I was born to amazing parents who loved me and told me I could do anything, but also pushed me to actually do it.

They modeled love for each other and love for me. My father worked a ****ty job because it had good insurance -because as a cancer survivor, i needed it.

I'm pretty blessed with intelligence. I love reading and questioning everything.

Every time I've worked hard, it has paid off. Every time.

That's not the case with a LOT of people. I see it every day. I work my ass off every day. I work with my hands and my mind. I work hard to serve others.

But it's all a blessing. I haven't really EARNED any of it. That's an illusion.

I'm glad you're proud. Sounds like you have a lot to be proud of. You've accomplished a lot. But that's not the case for everyone.

Trump says he's a self-made man. Do you think he's right?

---

I see. So the only people who can "earn" it are those born poor or with no parents or with darker skin pigment? Sound about right?

---

You don't read. You seriously don't read.

NO ONE earns it.

I don't understand the weird need for some people to impress everyone with their life story. They sniff their own farts and invent these Horatio Alger stories for themselves because they aren't really a success if they didn't do everything themselves.

You're not "a man" if you think you've done everything on your own.

You're wrong. And you're less of a man if you think that.

This idea that we HAVE to be the hero of every story is childish and small. My father raised me to never trust a man of woman who is always the hero of their own story. Because they lack humility or any self awareness.

It's a very strange thing to get angry and insist you have earned everything you have.

As if your life wouldn't have been harder if you'd been born in a different country. Or without legs. Or the ability to see.

---

You, Sir, are just not a very nice person. We will leave it at that.

---

I'm not a nice person because I think hard work should pay off?

---

You and your Bud, Waco, seem to be a whole lot more about privilege than hard work. Reminds me of ole Barack's famous quote "you didn't build that!"

---

So I'm a bad person for thinking hard work should pay off?

Please answer the question.

---

I am all for hard work. That is what capitalism and free enterprise are all about. You are not a nice person for mocking and belittling a fellow poster (a veteran) who took the time to share his life experience. You almost sounded a little Donald Trumpish with your post.

---

If you are referring to me, I appreciate the support, but I don't interpret anything as belittling me or pissing on me.

I served so we could go through this exercise and help preserve it.

Different opinions make the world go around and while I may not agree with all opinions, I can respect the right to have them. That does not mean I respect the opinion.

Perhaps it's my own life experience and it's difficult for me to understand how any American doesn't have an opportunity and an actual chance at a good life.

Perhaps I have been to enough countries to understand what we have versus other countries...Perhaps I've seen real poverty (and that is rare in the U.S. by comparison).

One thing I will never agree with is that we should take from those that put forth whatever effort necessary to succeed in order to subsidize those that don't.

Obviously things happen in people's lives that can be devastating and some of those things are nearly impossible to overcome, given the means...That's when support is needed and I would be happy to contribute in that scenario.

That's one thing, but if the thought is that everyone who happens to be born white has some sort stairway to heaven to success is sadly mistaken.

I was born in Oakland, Calif...Tell me what my advantage and my "white privilege" was. I suggest you do your homework and you will figure out, I was the minority and wasn't blessed with anything but birth.

I suppose that's why I just don't agree. There was nothing extraordinary about me other than I just wanted to do better and figured out a way to do it...My initial principle was just outwork everybody else, and I did.

---

Being white doesn't mean your life is awesome or that your life was perfect. It just means the color of your skin is probably not a reason it was rough.

For those who argue against the idea of privilege, I use the example of able-bodied privilege. Do you think that your life isn't easier than someone in a wheelchair? Of course it is. You can use steps.

Does having legs that work make your life easy? No. Does it mean you're not a good person? Of course not. It just means that your life isn't ****ty because your legs work. That's privilege.

And no one is arguing that we "take away from those who have earned." We're just arguing that we all have a vested interest in having a world where there are steps and ramps. Because Stephen Hawking wouldn't have been able to do so much if we hadn't tried.

---

As I said before, Obviously things happen in people's lives that can be devastating and some of those things are nearly impossible to overcome, given the means...That's when support is needed and I would be happy to contribute in that scenario.

I understand some are disadvantaged and that certainly makes things much harsher due to being handicapped...I'm all in there.

What I don't understand are those that aren't and then make excuses.

So the color of my skin is a reason it wasn't rough? In Oakland? Are you kidding me?

I suppose I have always looked at color as a nonfactor...Maybe we all should... No, we all should.

---

Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

All of this goes to the point that what you call an excuse, others would call a reason.

The entire point of that other thread on meritocracy is that meritocracy doesn't really exist right now. Social mobility is the most stagnant it has been in modern American history.

Surely we can agree that every advantage matters. And that disadvantages add up. Right?

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

It's more like single-parent home...the last stat I saw was from 2015 and that 90+% of Texas inmates were from single-parent homes.

---

thanks to the slippery slope of no fault divorces

---

And government attempting to be the primary provider allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility.

---

That's a helluva statement. Have any sources to back that up?

---

LBJ's War on Poverty and the advent of food stamps resulted in reliance on the government tit and more specifically the dissolution of the family unit because it made the man's role in the house irrelevant. Look it up. It's been a bigger failure than Reagan's War on Drugs.

---

So we have people on this thread arguing that no, poverty isn't that bad in this country.

Now we have you saying that there is poverty and that it only exists because of LBJ?

Like, there weren't poor people before LBJ? I think if you looked at the facts, you'd see that 90%+ of the people on public assistance are children, elderly or disabled. Most adults who do participate it are on it for less than a year through their entire lives.

Having programs that keep poor babies and elderly fed aren't the reason we have poor people.

---

My original comment was about government attempting to be the primary provider thus allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility as backed up by LBJ's failed war on poverty. You fail once again in your whatabout-ism and attempt to prove it succeeded especially in light of incarceration rates that are higher for those from single parent homes. LBJ's war on poverty has essentially killed the minority family unit. Good try tho....and BTW the poverty in this country is much better than that in other 3rd world countries where they don't have a food kitchen, Salvation Army, etc. that will provide necessities and their priority for the day is finding water.

---

You cast an aspersion and didn't back it up.

I specifically asked for sources.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Indeed "Because they lack humility or any self awareness. "
BBL
Self awareness that to whom and where we are born is a huge matters more than they can admit.

---

No human being on this earth (whether they be black, white, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) had any control whatsoever over their birth or who their parents are. My parents both grew up in poverty and were able to rise above. My Dad joined and had a career in the Air Force and my Mom was a school teacher and then became a registered nurse. You would have been hard-pressed to convince either one of them that they grew up "privileged" just because they were born white.

---

Yup. My dad didn't get along with his father and dropped out of high school at 17 and enlisted in the Army. Was "privileged" to spend almost 2 years in Korea where he earned a Combat Infantry Badge and Bronze Star among other things. He came back and married my school-teacher mom. Worked with his hands all of his working life in non-climate controlled environments while continuing to serve in the Reserves and later, the National Guard.
His father before him spent several years in the depression looking at the back side of a mule as a subsistence farmer in the Hill Country working his in-law's place. My mom picked tobacco as a little girl to earn a little money to help put food on the table. My in-law's family were share croppers in Oklahoma for a few generations. Yeah, not feeling the myth of privilege here so much.

My ancestors have been on this continent since the late 17th century. As far as I can tell, that's 300 years of working the land, working in saw mills, or working with their hands for little more than the clothes on their backs and the food on their tables. I'm the first male in my line to graduate from college. I don't think most leftist pinheads have a clue with all of their identity politics and intersectionality BS.

---

So you're saying that their hard work paid off?

That's all I'm arguing for.

---

"That's all I'm arguing for." I doubt your sincerity about this.

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Indeed "Because they lack humility or any self awareness. "
BBL
Self awareness that to whom and where we are born is a huge matters more than they can admit.

---

No human being on this earth (whether they be black, white, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) had any control whatsoever over their birth or who their parents are. My parents both grew up in poverty and were able to rise above. My Dad joined and had a career in the Air Force and my Mom was a school teacher and then became a registered nurse. You would have been hard-pressed to convince either one of them that they grew up "privileged" just because they were born white.

---

Yup. My dad didn't get along with his father and dropped out of high school at 17 and enlisted in the Army. Was "privileged" to spend almost 2 years in Korea where he earned a Combat Infantry Badge and Bronze Star among other things. He came back and married my school-teacher mom. Worked with his hands all of his working life in non-climate controlled environments while continuing to serve in the Reserves and later, the National Guard.
His father before him spent several years in the depression looking at the back side of a mule as a subsistence farmer in the Hill Country working his in-law's place. My mom picked tobacco as a little girl to earn a little money to help put food on the table. My in-law's family were share croppers in Oklahoma for a few generations. Yeah, not feeling the myth of privilege here so much.

My ancestors have been on this continent since the late 17th century. As far as I can tell, that's 300 years of working the land, working in saw mills, or working with their hands for little more than the clothes on their backs and the food on their tables. I'm the first male in my line to graduate from college. I don't think most leftist pinheads have a clue with all of their identity politics and intersectionality BS.

---

So you're saying that their hard work paid off?

That's all I'm arguing for.

---

"That's all I'm arguing for." I doubt your sincerity about this.

---

K. Guess that's a problem you're going to have to figure out.

Prayers!

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

It's more like single-parent home...the last stat I saw was from 2015 and that 90+% of Texas inmates were from single-parent homes.

---

thanks to the slippery slope of no fault divorces

---

And government attempting to be the primary provider allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility.

---

That's a helluva statement. Have any sources to back that up?

---

LBJ's War on Poverty and the advent of food stamps resulted in reliance on the government tit and more specifically the dissolution of the family unit because it made the man's role in the house irrelevant. Look it up. It's been a bigger failure than Reagan's War on Drugs.

---

So we have people on this thread arguing that no, poverty isn't that bad in this country.

Now we have you saying that there is poverty and that it only exists because of LBJ?

Like, there weren't poor people before LBJ? I think if you looked at the facts, you'd see that 90%+ of the people on public assistance are children, elderly or disabled. Most adults who do participate it are on it for less than a year through their entire lives.

Having programs that keep poor babies and elderly fed aren't the reason we have poor people.

---

My original comment was about government attempting to be the primary provider thus allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility as backed up by LBJ's failed war on poverty. You fail once again in your whatabout-ism and attempt to prove it succeeded especially in light of incarceration rates that are higher for those from single parent homes. LBJ's war on poverty has essentially killed the minority family unit. Good try tho....and BTW the poverty in this country is much better than that in other 3rd world countries where they don't have a food kitchen, Salvation Army, etc. that will provide necessities and their priority for the day is finding water.

---

You cast an aspersion and didn't back it up.

I specifically asked for sources.

---

I'm not doing your research for you. The war on poverty has been an abysmal failure on the minority family for going on 60 years now resulting in increased incarceration rates for minorities. Adios.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Indeed "Because they lack humility or any self awareness. "
BBL
Self awareness that to whom and where we are born is a huge matters more than they can admit.

---

No human being on this earth (whether they be black, white, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) had any control whatsoever over their birth or who their parents are. My parents both grew up in poverty and were able to rise above. My Dad joined and had a career in the Air Force and my Mom was a school teacher and then became a registered nurse. You would have been hard-pressed to convince either one of them that they grew up "privileged" just because they were born white.

---

Yup. My dad didn't get along with his father and dropped out of high school at 17 and enlisted in the Army. Was "privileged" to spend almost 2 years in Korea where he earned a Combat Infantry Badge and Bronze Star among other things. He came back and married my school-teacher mom. Worked with his hands all of his working life in non-climate controlled environments while continuing to serve in the Reserves and later, the National Guard.
His father before him spent several years in the depression looking at the back side of a mule as a subsistence farmer in the Hill Country working his in-law's place. My mom picked tobacco as a little girl to earn a little money to help put food on the table. My in-law's family were share croppers in Oklahoma for a few generations. Yeah, not feeling the myth of privilege here so much.

My ancestors have been on this continent since the late 17th century. As far as I can tell, that's 300 years of working the land, working in saw mills, or working with their hands for little more than the clothes on their backs and the food on their tables. I'm the first male in my line to graduate from college. I don't think most leftist pinheads have a clue with all of their identity politics and intersectionality BS.

---

So you're saying that their hard work paid off?

That's all I'm arguing for.

---

"That's all I'm arguing for." I doubt your sincerity about this.

---

K. Guess that's a problem you're going to have to figure out.

Prayers!

---

It's not a problem for me, so nothing to "figure out".

"Prayers." Doubt your sincerity about that, as well, but thanks if real.

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

YoakDaddy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

YoakDaddy said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BBL said Color IS a factor, though. Are we REALLY trying to argue it isn't? Look at incarceration rates alone. Race plays a role. Especially when you consider how incarceration's effects cascade through families (and has since Jim Crow).

Regarding incarceration rates, is it race or is it income level that plays the more important role?

Being white doesn't buy good legal representation. Money does that.

I've not looked at any stats. I'm just spit-ballin' . But, the question still stands.

---

It's more like single-parent home...the last stat I saw was from 2015 and that 90+% of Texas inmates were from single-parent homes.

---

thanks to the slippery slope of no fault divorces

---

And government attempting to be the primary provider allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility.

---

That's a helluva statement. Have any sources to back that up?

---

LBJ's War on Poverty and the advent of food stamps resulted in reliance on the government tit and more specifically the dissolution of the family unit because it made the man's role in the house irrelevant. Look it up. It's been a bigger failure than Reagan's War on Drugs.

---

So we have people on this thread arguing that no, poverty isn't that bad in this country.

Now we have you saying that there is poverty and that it only exists because of LBJ?

Like, there weren't poor people before LBJ? I think if you looked at the facts, you'd see that 90%+ of the people on public assistance are children, elderly or disabled. Most adults who do participate it are on it for less than a year through their entire lives.

Having programs that keep poor babies and elderly fed aren't the reason we have poor people.

---

My original comment was about government attempting to be the primary provider thus allowing fathers to abdicate familial responsibility as backed up by LBJ's failed war on poverty. You fail once again in your whatabout-ism and attempt to prove it succeeded especially in light of incarceration rates that are higher for those from single parent homes. LBJ's war on poverty has essentially killed the minority family unit. Good try tho....and BTW the poverty in this country is much better than that in other 3rd world countries where they don't have a food kitchen, Salvation Army, etc. that will provide necessities and their priority for the day is finding water.

---

You cast an aspersion and didn't back it up.

I specifically asked for sources.

---

I'm not doing your research for you. The war on poverty has been an abysmal failure on the minority family for going on 60 years now resulting in increased incarceration rates for minorities. Adios.

---

Lol. Do the research for yourself, then.

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

I seriously wonder if BBL is telling truth about paying off college debt?

I also wonder if so, if his parents enabled him again and did it for him?

You, on other hand, probably worked day and night doing so!

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

Passive Aggressive

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BrooksBearLives said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

BBL, is there any solution you can offer that doesn't tax the middle class or hurt them in anyway?

---

Yes. There's loads. College debt forgiveness would immediately stimulate the economy to the tune of $900 million a year for the cost of 1/10th TARP bailout.

---

I paid off my loans last year. Do I get a refund?

---

I just paid mine off. Don't hear me *****ing like a little whimp.

Didn't you just go off on a rant about how the world isn't fair the other day?

---

Whoa dude, I'm just asking if that's part of this student loan forgiveness plan. I just wanted more details.

I guess I should have held off paying those damn things so I could save thousands.

---

This is one of the more disingenuous things you've ever said -and that's really saying something.

---

How is it disingenuous?

If you want me to take you seriously on this topic, you're going to have to explain the details. Especially if it could effect me.

---

Sigh. You have not been taking anything I say seriously throughout this whole topic. You've consistently mischaracterized my statements. Called me names. Attacked my character.

It was clear where you were going with this. You know it. I know it. So can we just skip ahead to the point where you drop the whole "who, me?" act and get to the topic you're trying to pretend you care about?

The point of student loan forgiveness isn't to be fair, but to stimulate the economy for an entire generation. Removing student debt -and of course reforming that insane system on which I have built a fair amount of expertise through my career and studies (I've presented at conferences and co-written papers on the topic)- would immediately stimulate our economy and open up a whole world for recent graduates.

---

So since debt can't actually be eliminated...who ends up footing the bill?

I get that it's supposed to stimulate the economy to offset the forgiveness, but someone is still going to pay for it. The banks aren't just going to be like "Oh I guess we don't need that money". . The total amount of student loan debt is $1.47 trillion as of the end of 2018

How do we know for a fact that it will create a stimulus?

---

Oh we absolutely know there would be a major stimulus.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canceling-14-trillion-in-student-debt-could-have-major-benefits-for-the-economy-2018-02-07

Quote:

---

Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

"That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth," said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.

---

You and I are both young enough to know people who are still paying $300-1000 a month towards student loans. I personally know dozens.

They're putting off marriage. Having children. Buying homes (even moving out of their parent's house). Buying cars. Changing jobs. Etc.

$300 a month is a car payment. $1000 a month is rent or a mortgage.

---

I just foresee a massive raise in taxes to accomplish this to the point where I might lose $1000 a month.

Quote:

---

Of course, cancelling borrowers' student loans wouldn't come for free. More than 90% of outstanding student debt is owned by the government, which means that by cancelling it, taxpayers would lose out on interest and principal payments borrowers would have gotten on the loans.

The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers' private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.

Given that push and pull, it's unlikely that policymakers will seriously consider widespread cancellation of student loan debt.

---