TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.

---

We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.

---

Actually it holds up very well. You haven't explained why a god of love would create a universe that is hostile to life, and is full of pain and suffering for sentient beings. If his goal is to create a utopian heaven somewhere, then why didn't he create that to begin with, create everyone to be in the state they will be in heaven, and skip all the rest? Unless, your god is evil and has a sadistic side to him. Oh, wait, that seems to fit the god described in the OT, NT, and the Quran? Your god doesn't make sense, and doesn't hold up, and is essentially no different than any other god postulated by any other religion, past or present. Even the the various sects and cults of Christianity do not agree on the tenets and beliefs of what it means to be a Christian. Beside that, there is no objective evidence that any such god exists. In fact, objective reality indicates that there is no such god, and that there is no need for any such god to explain the existence of anything. Isn't your belief irrational and illogical?

---

If the universe has no creator, and everything is just chaos, which is your argument, then evil is not real and your objections to it are meaningless. Believing that suffering and evil is real requires believing that the universe is not simply chaos.

JXL said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.

---

We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.

---

Actually it holds up very well. You haven't explained why a god of love would create a universe that is hostile to life, and is full of pain and suffering for sentient beings. If his goal is to create a utopian heaven somewhere, then why didn't he create that to begin with, create everyone to be in the state they will be in heaven, and skip all the rest? Unless, your god is evil and has a sadistic side to him. Oh, wait, that seems to fit the god described in the OT, NT, and the Quran? Your god doesn't make sense, and doesn't hold up, and is essentially no different than any other god postulated by any other religion, past or present. Even the the various sects and cults of Christianity do not agree on the tenets and beliefs of what it means to be a Christian. Beside that, there is no objective evidence that any such god exists. In fact, objective reality indicates that there is no such god, and that there is no need for any such god to explain the existence of anything. Isn't your belief irrational and illogical?

---

The universe you describe is not compatible with free will.

---

TS rejects any universe not of his own imagination

Oldbear83 said:

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If your faith is "grounded in science" it is not faith but humanism.

Thus endeth the lesson.

---

God is love is straight from scripture - I John God is love, and anyone who doesn't love others has never known him..
Matthew 22 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. This is the basis of my faith.
So show me the "humanism"
You cannot and will not respond because you would be arguing with my scriptural. So you will just shuffle away.

UBBY said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

There isn't a reason behind it. Its chance.

You also see instances where things go perfectly wrong like a woman being decapitated while driving. Or a man being crushed by his vehicle and later he dies a slow painful death.

People have this insatiable desire to attach meaning to something. Everything doesn't happen for a reason. That's very obvious to anyone who has studied human history.

---

It's chance and physics.
These guys are old theism guys who are arguing with you. They twist themselves into logical, philosophical and science pretzels trying to justify a theodicy of God is love, We are free will creatures and an all powerful God.
Try Alfred Whitehead for a process philosophy and theology. The supernatural and all power themes in the Bible are Scientific nonsense but God is love is truth and spiritual. Build your faith there not on a magical God. Our existential life is lived physical world and a spiritual world. I am comfortable in both worlds by tossing out all powerful and clinging tightly to God's love.

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.

---

We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.

---

Actually it holds up very well. You haven't explained why a god of love would create a universe that is hostile to life, and is full of pain and suffering for sentient beings. If his goal is to create a utopian heaven somewhere, then why didn't he create that to begin with, create everyone to be in the state they will be in heaven, and skip all the rest? Unless, your god is evil and has a sadistic side to him. Oh, wait, that seems to fit the god described in the OT, NT, and the Quran? Your god doesn't make sense, and doesn't hold up, and is essentially no different than any other god postulated by any other religion, past or present. Even the the various sects and cults of Christianity do not agree on the tenets and beliefs of what it means to be a Christian. Beside that, there is no objective evidence that any such god exists. In fact, objective reality indicates that there is no such god, and that there is no need for any such god to explain the existence of anything. Isn't your belief irrational and illogical?

---

If the universe has no creator, and everything is just chaos, which is your argument, then evil is not real and your objections to it are meaningless. Believing that suffering and evil is real requires believing that the universe is not simply chaos.

---

Evil is a human and cultural construct. There is evil because human culture, having evolved into self awareness, has determined that which causes harm and adversely affects others is detrimental to cooperation and the individual collective wellbeing of others.

Oldbear83 said:

---

JXL said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.

---

We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.

---

Actually it holds up very well. You haven't explained why a god of love would create a universe that is hostile to life, and is full of pain and suffering for sentient beings. If his goal is to create a utopian heaven somewhere, then why didn't he create that to begin with, create everyone to be in the state they will be in heaven, and skip all the rest? Unless, your god is evil and has a sadistic side to him. Oh, wait, that seems to fit the god described in the OT, NT, and the Quran? Your god doesn't make sense, and doesn't hold up, and is essentially no different than any other god postulated by any other religion, past or present. Even the the various sects and cults of Christianity do not agree on the tenets and beliefs of what it means to be a Christian. Beside that, there is no objective evidence that any such god exists. In fact, objective reality indicates that there is no such god, and that there is no need for any such god to explain the existence of anything. Isn't your belief irrational and illogical?

---

The universe you describe is not compatible with free will.

---

TS rejects any universe not of his own imagination

---

I reject all universes that are the product of imagination and myth. The universe that you and I live in is objectively real. There is tangible evidence for the universe we live in, and the tool of science is affording us the opportunity and ability, for our knowledge and understanding of the universe to grow. This tool has given us the ability to recognize the Genesis universe is a myth.

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.

---

We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.

---

Actually it holds up very well. You haven't explained why a god of love would create a universe that is hostile to life, and is full of pain and suffering for sentient beings. If his goal is to create a utopian heaven somewhere, then why didn't he create that to begin with, create everyone to be in the state they will be in heaven, and skip all the rest? Unless, your god is evil and has a sadistic side to him. Oh, wait, that seems to fit the god described in the OT, NT, and the Quran? Your god doesn't make sense, and doesn't hold up, and is essentially no different than any other god postulated by any other religion, past or present. Even the the various sects and cults of Christianity do not agree on the tenets and beliefs of what it means to be a Christian. Beside that, there is no objective evidence that any such god exists. In fact, objective reality indicates that there is no such god, and that there is no need for any such god to explain the existence of anything. Isn't your belief irrational and illogical?

---

If the universe has no creator, and everything is just chaos, which is your argument, then evil is not real and your objections to it are meaningless. Believing that suffering and evil is real requires believing that the universe is not simply chaos.

---

Evil is a human and cultural construct. There is evil because human culture, having evolved into self awareness, has determined that which causes harm and adversely affects others is detrimental to cooperation and the individual collective wellbeing of others.

---

If the universe is mere chaos, then there is no self of which to be aware. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.

---

We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.

---

Actually it holds up very well. You haven't explained why a god of love would create a universe that is hostile to life, and is full of pain and suffering for sentient beings. If his goal is to create a utopian heaven somewhere, then why didn't he create that to begin with, create everyone to be in the state they will be in heaven, and skip all the rest? Unless, your god is evil and has a sadistic side to him. Oh, wait, that seems to fit the god described in the OT, NT, and the Quran? Your god doesn't make sense, and doesn't hold up, and is essentially no different than any other god postulated by any other religion, past or present. Even the the various sects and cults of Christianity do not agree on the tenets and beliefs of what it means to be a Christian. Beside that, there is no objective evidence that any such god exists. In fact, objective reality indicates that there is no such god, and that there is no need for any such god to explain the existence of anything. Isn't your belief irrational and illogical?

---

If the universe has no creator, and everything is just chaos, which is your argument, then evil is not real and your objections to it are meaningless. Believing that suffering and evil is real requires believing that the universe is not simply chaos.

---

Evil is a human and cultural construct. There is evil because human culture, having evolved into self awareness, has determined that which causes harm and adversely affects others is detrimental to cooperation and the individual collective wellbeing of others.

---

"Evil" is a word used to describe a recognized character of thought and conduct which is abhorrent to all moral concepts. It is not a construct itself, but is properly defined as a description of a malicious moral character.

Your definition would describe apprehension of criminals as 'evil' simply because they are adversely affected by getting caught in their crimes. Ergo your definition is incorrect.

TS: "I reject all universes that are the product of imagination and myth."

Were that statement correct, you would decline to offer opinion on heaven, hell, goodness and evil, since by your own words those proceed from human imagination, including your own.

Quote:

---

Evil is a human and cultural construct. There is evil because human culture, having evolved into self awareness, has determined that which causes harm and adversely affects others is detrimental to cooperation and the individual collective wellbeing of others.

---

How in the heck did we "evolve into self awareness"? What exactly IS self-awareness in the first place? How can random DNA mutations and natural selection lead to such a thing? What is the proposed mechanism?

What will it take to show you that this is as much of a faith statement as any?

Texas said:

---

Evil is a human and cultural construct. There is evil because human culture, having evolved into self awareness, has determined that which causes harm and adversely affects others is detrimental to cooperation and the individual collective wellbeing of others.

---

If evil is a human and cultural construct, and since humans are themselves the product of pure random, natural events of physical matter in the universe, then the human-derived concepts of "harm", "detrimental to cooperation", and "individual or collective wellbeing" have no real meaning or value. Thus, "evil" has no real meaning or value.

Quote:

---

I reject all universes that are the product of imagination and myth. The universe that you and I live in is objectively real. There is tangible evidence for the universe we live in, and the tool of science is affording us the opportunity and ability, for our knowledge and understanding of the universe to grow. This tool has given us the ability to recognize the Genesis universe is a myth.

---

But there are far smarter scientists than you and I, like astrophysicist Hugh Ross, who believe that our increasing knowledge in science has actually confirmed the creations accounts in the bible.

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.

---

We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.

---

Actually it holds up very well. You haven't explained why a god of love would create a universe that is hostile to life, and is full of pain and suffering for sentient beings. If his goal is to create a utopian heaven somewhere, then why didn't he create that to begin with, create everyone to be in the state they will be in heaven, and skip all the rest? Unless, your god is evil and has a sadistic side to him. Oh, wait, that seems to fit the god described in the OT, NT, and the Quran? Your god doesn't make sense, and doesn't hold up, and is essentially no different than any other god postulated by any other religion, past or present. Even the the various sects and cults of Christianity do not agree on the tenets and beliefs of what it means to be a Christian. Beside that, there is no objective evidence that any such god exists. In fact, objective reality indicates that there is no such god, and that there is no need for any such god to explain the existence of anything. Isn't your belief irrational and illogical?

---

If the universe has no creator, and everything is just chaos, which is your argument, then evil is not real and your objections to it are meaningless. Believing that suffering and evil is real requires believing that the universe is not simply chaos.

---

Evil is a human and cultural construct. There is evil because human culture, having evolved into self awareness, has determined that which causes harm and adversely affects others is detrimental to cooperation and the individual collective wellbeing of others.

---

If the universe is mere chaos, then there is no self of which to be aware. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

---

Then your existential self is denying your premise. Even on chaos you exist.

God is not a cosmic bellboy for whom we can press a button to get things.
Harry Emerson Fosdick

Waco1947 said:

---

God is not a cosmic bellboy for whom we can press a button to get things.
Harry Emerson Fosdick

---

That's right, and God is also the creator of the universe and everything in it.

Waco1947 said:

---

UBBY said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

There isn't a reason behind it. Its chance.

You also see instances where things go perfectly wrong like a woman being decapitated while driving. Or a man being crushed by his vehicle and later he dies a slow painful death.

People have this insatiable desire to attach meaning to something. Everything doesn't happen for a reason. That's very obvious to anyone who has studied human history.

---

It's chance and physics.
These guys are old theism guys who are arguing with you. They twist themselves into logical, philosophical and science pretzels trying to justify a theodicy of God is love, We are free will creatures and an all powerful God.
Try Alfred Whitehead for a process philosophy and theology. The supernatural and all power themes in the Bible are Scientific nonsense but God is love is truth and spiritual. Build your faith there not on a magical God. Our existential life is lived physical world and a spiritual world. I am comfortable in both worlds by tossing out all powerful and clinging tightly to God's love.

---

You say other people's logic is like pretzels but yours fails from the start, because you profess to believe in (a) a god who is not supernatural and not all-powerful, and (b), the resurrection of Christ from the dead, which requires both of the aspects which you denied in (a).

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

---

Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

---

Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

---

I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

---

If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

---

No, actually, I don't. In any event, I am asking you a question.

Do you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator? Yes or no?

---

I don't know but it doesn't help your argument. It's not a numbers game it's physics. Can God over rule physics?

---

Physics is mere description. There are no rules without a rule-maker.

---

Wrong. We have rules that govern our universe without any rule-maker.

---

You usually don't slip up like this, but this is simply a leap of faith. It is simple faith.

Rules, without a rule maker. When we want to go into the realm of unprovable statements, this is right at the top.

That said I like you as a poster, and on the football board we rarely disagree.

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

UBBY said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

There isn't a reason behind it. Its chance.

You also see instances where things go perfectly wrong like a woman being decapitated while driving. Or a man being crushed by his vehicle and later he dies a slow painful death.

People have this insatiable desire to attach meaning to something. Everything doesn't happen for a reason. That's very obvious to anyone who has studied human history.

---

It's chance and physics.
These guys are old theism guys who are arguing with you. They twist themselves into logical, philosophical and science pretzels trying to justify a theodicy of God is love, We are free will creatures and an all powerful God.
Try Alfred Whitehead for a process philosophy and theology. The supernatural and all power themes in the Bible are Scientific nonsense but God is love is truth and spiritual. Build your faith there not on a magical God. Our existential life is lived physical world and a spiritual world. I am comfortable in both worlds by tossing out all powerful and clinging tightly to God's love.

---

You say other people's logic is like pretzels but yours fails from the start, because you profess to believe in (a) a god who is not supernatural and not all-powerful, and (b), the resurrection of Christ from the dead, which requires both of the aspects which you denied in (a).

---

Wrong - I believe in the resurrection but an all powerful God.
There is no way you can prove God is the rule maker or the creator. Your only source is Bible. All powerFul is a scientific term because it means your theism can send storms, push rocks, separate water and you can't prove it with science. You haven't even tried. You simply have no recourse for proving it except the Bible but scientists do not ever turn to the Bible for answer to physics.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

UBBY said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

There isn't a reason behind it. Its chance.

You also see instances where things go perfectly wrong like a woman being decapitated while driving. Or a man being crushed by his vehicle and later he dies a slow painful death.

People have this insatiable desire to attach meaning to something. Everything doesn't happen for a reason. That's very obvious to anyone who has studied human history.

---

It's chance and physics.
These guys are old theism guys who are arguing with you. They twist themselves into logical, philosophical and science pretzels trying to justify a theodicy of God is love, We are free will creatures and an all powerful God.
Try Alfred Whitehead for a process philosophy and theology. The supernatural and all power themes in the Bible are Scientific nonsense but God is love is truth and spiritual. Build your faith there not on a magical God. Our existential life is lived physical world and a spiritual world. I am comfortable in both worlds by tossing out all powerful and clinging tightly to God's love.

---

You say other people's logic is like pretzels but yours fails from the start, because you profess to believe in (a) a god who is not supernatural and not all-powerful, and (b), the resurrection of Christ from the dead, which requires both of the aspects which you denied in (a).

---

Wrong - I believe in the resurrection but an all powerful God.
There is no way you can prove God is the rule maker or the creator. Your only source is Bible. All powerFul is a scientific term because it means your theism can send storms, push rocks, separate water and you can't prove it with science. You haven't even tried. You simply have no recourse for proving it except the Bible but scientists do not ever turn to the Bible for answer to physics.

---

If "your theism" can raise the dead, "sending storms" or whatever else is child's play.

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: "I reject all universes that are the product of imagination and myth."

Were that statement correct, you would decline to offer opinion on heaven, hell, goodness and evil, since by your own words those proceed from human imagination, including your own.

---

I can reject myths, and can have an opinion on myths. Goodness and evil have nothing to do with heaven or hell. Human and cultural morals and my thoughts regarding those are irrelevant to whether I reject the myths of heaven and hell.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Quote:

---

I reject all universes that are the product of imagination and myth. The universe that you and I live in is objectively real. There is tangible evidence for the universe we live in, and the tool of science is affording us the opportunity and ability, for our knowledge and understanding of the universe to grow. This tool has given us the ability to recognize the Genesis universe is a myth.

---

But there are far smarter scientists than you and I, like astrophysicist Hugh Ross, who believe that our increasing knowledge in science has actually confirmed the creations accounts in the bible.

---

Hugh Ross's ideas fall outside of the mainstream and norms of science. His ideas about a young earth and Christian apologetics are not supported by objective and empirical evidence of biology, paleontology, geology, nor astrophysics.

Forest Bueller said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

---

Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

---

Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

---

I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

---

If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

---

No, actually, I don't. In any event, I am asking you a question.

Do you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator? Yes or no?

---

I don't know but it doesn't help your argument. It's not a numbers game it's physics. Can God over rule physics?

---

Physics is mere description. There are no rules without a rule-maker.

---

Wrong. We have rules that govern our universe without any rule-maker.

---

You usually don't slip up like this, but this is simply a leap of faith. It is simple faith.

Rules, without a rule maker. When we want to go into the realm of unprovable statements, this is right at the top.

That said I like you as a poster, and on the football board we rarely disagree.

---

Rules are descriptive terms that consistently and predictably describe principles and observations of nature.

Glad we agree on football.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

UBBY said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

UBBY said:

---

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?

---

UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?

---

There isn't a reason behind it. Its chance.

You also see instances where things go perfectly wrong like a woman being decapitated while driving. Or a man being crushed by his vehicle and later he dies a slow painful death.

People have this insatiable desire to attach meaning to something. Everything doesn't happen for a reason. That's very obvious to anyone who has studied human history.

---

It's chance and physics.
These guys are old theism guys who are arguing with you. They twist themselves into logical, philosophical and science pretzels trying to justify a theodicy of God is love, We are free will creatures and an all powerful God.
Try Alfred Whitehead for a process philosophy and theology. The supernatural and all power themes in the Bible are Scientific nonsense but God is love is truth and spiritual. Build your faith there not on a magical God. Our existential life is lived physical world and a spiritual world. I am comfortable in both worlds by tossing out all powerful and clinging tightly to God's love.

---

You say other people's logic is like pretzels but yours fails from the start, because you profess to believe in (a) a god who is not supernatural and not all-powerful, and (b), the resurrection of Christ from the dead, which requires both of the aspects which you denied in (a).

---

Wrong - I believe in the resurrection but an all powerful God.
There is no way you can prove God is the rule maker or the creator. Your only source is Bible. All powerFul is a scientific term because it means your theism can send storms, push rocks, separate water and you can't prove it with science. You haven't even tried. You simply have no recourse for proving it except the Bible but scientists do not ever turn to the Bible for answer to physics.

---

No, they don't, because as you've been told at least a dozen times now, the Bible isn't a science textbook.

But while we're on that subject, how did your limited, non-supernatural god perform the supremely supernatural feat of raising a man from the dead?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Texas said:

---

Evil is a human and cultural construct. There is evil because human culture, having evolved into self awareness, has determined that which causes harm and adversely affects others is detrimental to cooperation and the individual collective wellbeing of others.

---

If evil is a human and cultural construct, and since humans are themselves the product of pure random, natural events of physical matter in the universe, then the human-derived concepts of "harm", "detrimental to cooperation", and "individual or collective wellbeing" have no real meaning or value. Thus, "evil" has no real meaning or value.

---

Evil does have meaning or value to cultures that have cognition, awareness, and ability to make value judgements about collective and individual wellbeing.

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Texas said:

---

Evil is a human and cultural construct. There is evil because human culture, having evolved into self awareness, has determined that which causes harm and adversely affects others is detrimental to cooperation and the individual collective wellbeing of others.

---

If evil is a human and cultural construct, and since humans are themselves the product of pure random, natural events of physical matter in the universe, then the human-derived concepts of "harm", "detrimental to cooperation", and "individual or collective wellbeing" have no real meaning or value. Thus, "evil" has no real meaning or value.

---

Evil does have meaning or value to cultures that have cognition, awareness, and ability to make value judgements about collective and individual wellbeing.

---

If humans are simply the result random physical events in the universe, then "cognition, awareness, and ability to make value judgements about collective and individual wellbeing" have no meaning or value either.

JXL " No, they don't, because as you've been told at least a dozen times now, the Bible isn't a science textbook.

But while we're on that subject, how did your limited, non-supernatural god perform the supremely supernatural feat of raising a man from the dead?"
I have answered this question a dozen times. See I Corinthians 15. Paul is clear a bodily resurrection. God raised Jesus as Paul says - a body appropriate to resurrection.
I know I he Bible is not a science. I am arguing that is But - this is important so listen up - when you say God is all powerful meaning power over biology, physics, geology then you are making a scientific statement from the Bible. You cannot prove your all powerful belief by appealing to the Bible ad you say it's not a scientific textbook. Sooooo you must prove it then by using science. All powerful is a science statement. Now prove it scientifically.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL " No, they don't, because as you've been told at least a dozen times now, the Bible isn't a science textbook.

But while we're on that subject, how did your limited, non-supernatural god perform the supremely supernatural feat of raising a man from the dead?"
I have answered this question a dozen times. See I Corinthians 15. Paul is clear a bodily resurrection. God raised Jesus as Paul says - a body appropriate to resurrection.
I know I he Bible is not a science. I am arguing that is But - this is important so listen up - when you say God is all powerful meaning power over biology, physics, geology then you are making a scientific statement from the Bible. You cannot prove your all powerful belief by appealing to the Bible ad you say it's not a scientific textbook. Sooooo you must prove it then by using science. All powerful is a science statement. Now prove it scientifically.

---

I'll mention this again since you ignored it before. You can't say that a statement is scientific and also say that it's scientifically unprovable. Those two things don't go together.

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: "I reject all universes that are the product of imagination and myth."

Were that statement correct, you would decline to offer opinion on heaven, hell, goodness and evil, since by your own words those proceed from human imagination, including your own.

---

I can reject myths, and can have an opinion on myths. Goodness and evil have nothing to do with heaven or hell. Human and cultural morals and my thoughts regarding those are irrelevant to whether I reject the myths of heaven and hell.

---

No, since you use your imagination to reject imagination.

Your logic contradicts your conclusion.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL " No, they don't, because as you've been told at least a dozen times now, the Bible isn't a science textbook.

But while we're on that subject, how did your limited, non-supernatural god perform the supremely supernatural feat of raising a man from the dead?"
I have answered this question a dozen times. See I Corinthians 15. Paul is clear a bodily resurrection. God raised Jesus as Paul says - a body appropriate to resurrection.
I know I he Bible is not a science. I am arguing that is But - this is important so listen up - when you say God is all powerful meaning power over biology, physics, geology then you are making a scientific statement from the Bible. You cannot prove your all powerful belief by appealing to the Bible ad you say it's not a scientific textbook. Sooooo you must prove it then by using science. All powerful is a science statement. Now prove it scientifically.

---

1. It's been shown to you several times that the Resurrection was physical. Even if Christ took on the spiritual body described by Paul at the Ascension, He still had a physical body for the time period between the Resurrection and the Ascension.

2. Setting that aside, you still have not explained how your limited, non-supernatural god can resurrect someone from the dead, whether in a physical body or a spiritual one.

3. What form of proof would you like? You've already been given the creation of the universe as evidence and apparently rejected it, so what exactly are you looking for? Do you know?

4. How do you respond to Sam's point that a statement cannot be both scientific and scientifically unprovable?

D. C. Bear said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Texas said:

---

Evil is a human and cultural construct. There is evil because human culture, having evolved into self awareness, has determined that which causes harm and adversely affects others is detrimental to cooperation and the individual collective wellbeing of others.

---

If evil is a human and cultural construct, and since humans are themselves the product of pure random, natural events of physical matter in the universe, then the human-derived concepts of "harm", "detrimental to cooperation", and "individual or collective wellbeing" have no real meaning or value. Thus, "evil" has no real meaning or value.

---

Evil does have meaning or value to cultures that have cognition, awareness, and ability to make value judgements about collective and individual wellbeing.

---

If humans are simply the result random physical events in the universe, then "cognition, awareness, and ability to make value judgements about collective and individual wellbeing" have no meaning or value either.

---

Your conditional statement is overly simplistic, but the fact that we are self aware, and have the unique ability to make value judgements, is what gives meaning and value to us as individuals and collectively as a species. We find meaning and value in ourselves and amongst ourselves.

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: "I reject all universes that are the product of imagination and myth."

Were that statement correct, you would decline to offer opinion on heaven, hell, goodness and evil, since by your own words those proceed from human imagination, including your own.

---

I can reject myths, and can have an opinion on myths. Goodness and evil have nothing to do with heaven or hell. Human and cultural morals and my thoughts regarding those are irrelevant to whether I reject the myths of heaven and hell.

---

No, since you use your imagination to reject imagination.

Your logic contradicts your conclusion.

---

No, I reject the combination of imagination and myth. Imagination itself can be useful.

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: "I reject all universes that are the product of imagination and myth."

Were that statement correct, you would decline to offer opinion on heaven, hell, goodness and evil, since by your own words those proceed from human imagination, including your own.

---

I can reject myths, and can have an opinion on myths. Goodness and evil have nothing to do with heaven or hell. Human and cultural morals and my thoughts regarding those are irrelevant to whether I reject the myths of heaven and hell.

---

No, since you use your imagination to reject imagination.

Your logic contradicts your conclusion.

---

No, I reject the combination of imagination and myth. Imagination itself can be useful.

---

Again, nothing can be useful if we are merely the product of random events. There is no "useful" in that situation, there is only random physical events.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL " No, they don't, because as you've been told at least a dozen times now, the Bible isn't a science textbook.

But while we're on that subject, how did your limited, non-supernatural god perform the supremely supernatural feat of raising a man from the dead?"
I have answered this question a dozen times. See I Corinthians 15. Paul is clear a bodily resurrection. God raised Jesus as Paul says - a body appropriate to resurrection.
I know I he Bible is not a science. I am arguing that is But - this is important so listen up - when you say God is all powerful meaning power over biology, physics, geology then you are making a scientific statement from the Bible. You cannot prove your all powerful belief by appealing to the Bible ad you say it's not a scientific textbook. Sooooo you must prove it then by using science. All powerful is a science statement. Now prove it scientifically.

---

I'll mention this again since you ignored it before. You can't say that a statement is scientific and also say that it's scientifically unprovable. Those two things don't go together.

---

then what is "all powerful?" Ontrol over science. It ain't my claim but yours. You can't defend it as science.

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TS: "I reject all universes that are the product of imagination and myth."

Were that statement correct, you would decline to offer opinion on heaven, hell, goodness and evil, since by your own words those proceed from human imagination, including your own.

---

I can reject myths, and can have an opinion on myths. Goodness and evil have nothing to do with heaven or hell. Human and cultural morals and my thoughts regarding those are irrelevant to whether I reject the myths of heaven and hell.

---

No, since you use your imagination to reject imagination.

Your logic contradicts your conclusion.

---

No, I reject the combination of imagination and myth. Imagination itself can be useful.

---

But not to refute imagination.

As for myth, all humans subscribe to myths. You as much as anyone.

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL " No, they don't, because as you've been told at least a dozen times now, the Bible isn't a science textbook.

But while we're on that subject, how did your limited, non-supernatural god perform the supremely supernatural feat of raising a man from the dead?"
I have answered this question a dozen times. See I Corinthians 15. Paul is clear a bodily resurrection. God raised Jesus as Paul says - a body appropriate to resurrection.
I know I he Bible is not a science. I am arguing that is But - this is important so listen up - when you say God is all powerful meaning power over biology, physics, geology then you are making a scientific statement from the Bible. You cannot prove your all powerful belief by appealing to the Bible ad you say it's not a scientific textbook. Sooooo you must prove it then by using science. All powerful is a science statement. Now prove it scientifically.

---

I'll mention this again since you ignored it before. You can't say that a statement is scientific and also say that it's scientifically unprovable. Those two things don't go together.

---

then what is "all powerful?" Ontrol over science. It ain't my claim but yours. You can't defend it as science.

---

We worship God, not Science.

Prove Science is greater than God, since you worship a thing mad by man rather than the universe made by God.