The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

Waco1947 said:

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The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

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And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

TexasScientist said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Quote:

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and you are the one who made the claim it was presenting fact.

Do you not see that you are jumping on the same bandwagon, although with different intentions, than many Others that have presented the poetry of Gen 1 as fact.

When you use Gen 1 as a factual presentation when you know it is poetry, what does that say about your integrity?

---

No. I don't claim or present it as fact. My contention is with those who claim it as fact, poetry notwithstanding.

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you know it is poetry but continue to argue as though it is a factual argument. Like I said, credibility much?

---

I don't have problem if you want to read it as poetry and realize it is fiction. My problem is with those who believe it as literal fact. There are plenty of people who argue it as fact. Look no further than Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis, and his "Creation Museum." Your argument should be with him, not me.

---

I presented my view and you continued to come back at me as though I made his argument.

When you argue with me, try challenging my views rather than someone else's.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Quote:

---

and you are the one who made the claim it was presenting fact.

Do you not see that you are jumping on the same bandwagon, although with different intentions, than many Others that have presented the poetry of Gen 1 as fact.

When you use Gen 1 as a factual presentation when you know it is poetry, what does that say about your integrity?

---

No. I don't claim or present it as fact. My contention is with those who claim it as fact, poetry notwithstanding.

---

you know it is poetry but continue to argue as though it is a factual argument. Like I said, credibility much?

---

I don't have problem if you want to read it as poetry and realize it is fiction. My problem is with those who believe it as literal fact. There are plenty of people who argue it as fact. Look no further than Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis, and his "Creation Museum." Your argument should be with him, not me.

---

I presented my view and you continued to come back at me as though I made his argument.

When you argue with me, try challenging my views rather than someone else's.

---

I've told you all along, as long as you know its fiction I don't care if you read it as poetry.

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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'What has Christianity ever been right about?'


Compare the existence of free education, charities, the concept of human rights from 2200 years ago to now. Consider what caused the change from those ancient opinions and behaviors to what we do and believe now.

Hint - it wasn't Marx.

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Crusades, inquisition, slavery, witch trials, hiding Nazi war criminals. It wasn't humanism.

---

Crusades - Romans Catholic Church, but in cooperation with secular nobility and only after invasion by the Muslims
So you believe the Crusades are excused because the RCC is somehow not the Christian Church and directed by Christians? Do you excuse Islam today in the same manner?

Inquisition - again, RCC but notably also common in modern-day political practice. See damn near anything from the Governor/Mayors in California and New York
Isn't/wasn't the RCC the predominant definitive institution of Christianity? I don't follow what your trying to say about governors - explain?

Slavery - not a religious thing. Just the nastier part of human nature, like the Tuskegee Study and other 'scientific' abuses of minorities.
Christianity historically has embraced slavery. No where in the NT has any Christian claiming to speak with authority condemned slavery, including Jesus. If anything, the NT writings are supportive, which gives further credence to the idea that these are simply the writings of ignorant people. Why was Jesus morally absent on the issue of slavery? Religion is a nastier part of human nature.

https://atlantablackstar.com/2014/12/02/5-unethical-medical-experiments-that-used-black-people-as-guinea-pigs/

Witch Trials - again, secular abuse of power
Imposed by those who claim the authority of Christ.

Hiding Nazis - political abuse of power, not religious doctrine
Why would Christian clergy use their position in the Church, power, and church resources to aid Nazis? Are they no different than any other political organization (rhetorical question)?

You seem desperate to throw anything you can, hoping to smear faith.
No, my goal is not to smear. Rather, it is to draw attention to the fact that religions are nothing more than an institutions created by man that have outlived their purpose. We should recognize religion for what it is, release the world from its shackles of myth and superstition, and move beyond archaic primitive beliefs. That's the only way we have a chance to successfully address the challenges we face on this planet.

Now consider this:

"In 1435 Eugenius IV excommunicated Christians enslaving inhabitants of the Canary Islands (the earliest Portuguese and Spanish outpost in the Atlantic); in 1462, Pius II declared slavery a "great crime"; in 1537, Paul III demanded the freedom of all American Indians, as did Gregory XIV in 1591. Urban VIII (16231644) condemned all slavery, including that of blacks, and the Inquisition (Holy Office) followed suit in 1686."
Did they go far enough? I do find it interesting that some clergy have spoken out against slavery, yet Jesus and the leaders in the early church condoned slavery.

https://www.equip.org/article/christianity-black-slavery/

The early Christian Church created many of the first hospitals:

"As churches were established some of them were used as informal hospitals. The Christians would often help others during epidemics such as the Antonine Plague."
Nice. They sometimes do some good.

https://classicalwisdom.com/culture/history/christianity-and-the-rise-of-the-hospital-in-the-ancient-world/

Also

https://www.ancient-origins.net/history/plight-poor-0011676?utm_source=classicalwisdom.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange_article&utm_term=pubexchange_article-ancient_origins-classical_wisdom

There was Christian opposition to the Witch Trials, by the way:
Yet Christians who have a humanistic conscience couldn't prevail, and the executions were carried out in the name and authority of Christ. Why didn't Jesus do something to stop such Christian barbarism?

"Andrea Alciato (1515) and Johann Weyer (1563) both objected that torture could lead to false confessions.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_early_modern_witch_trials#cite_note-3][3][/url] Johann Georg Gdelmann (1591) objected to legal abuses and improper methods of trial,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_early_modern_witch_trials#cite_note-4][4][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_early_modern_witch_trials#cite_note-5][5][/url] while Friedrich Spee (1631) argued that there was no empirical evidence for allegations of witchcraft, even self-confessed.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_early_modern_witch_trials#cite_note-6][6][/url] In 1635 Roman Inquisition acknowledged that "the Inquisition has found scarcely one trial conducted legally".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_early_modern_witch_trials#cite_note-7][7][/url] In the middle of the 17th century, the difficulty in proving witchcraft according to legal process contributed to the councilors of Rothenburg ob der Tauber (German), following advice to treat witchcraft cases with caution.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_early_modern_witch_trials#cite_note-8][8][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_early_modern_witch_trials#cite_note-9][9][/url] In 1652 jurist Georg Christoph Walther advised the Rothenburg council in the case of two women accused of witchcraft, insisting that unless the women could be found guilty by proper due legal procedure they should be released without punishment.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_early_modern_witch_trials#cite_note-10][10][/url]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_early_modern_witch_trials

As for the Nazis?

"we seek to see if Hitler's agenda met with Christian opposition. Evidence would suggest that the resistance was in fact substantial." - along with even more substantial Christian aid, assistance, and complaisance. Look no further than the treatment of the Jews.

http://creationsd.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Hitler-s_Evolution_Versus_Christian_Resistance.pdf

Consider Dietrich Bonhoffer, if you want specifics.
Unfortunately, his humanism wasn't shared by the majority of Christians, who carried out, ignored or excused Nazi atrocities. Christians regularly attended church near Dachau.

---

Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Quote:

---

and you are the one who made the claim it was presenting fact.

Do you not see that you are jumping on the same bandwagon, although with different intentions, than many Others that have presented the poetry of Gen 1 as fact.

When you use Gen 1 as a factual presentation when you know it is poetry, what does that say about your integrity?

---

No. I don't claim or present it as fact. My contention is with those who claim it as fact, poetry notwithstanding.

---

you know it is poetry but continue to argue as though it is a factual argument. Like I said, credibility much?

---

I don't have problem if you want to read it as poetry and realize it is fiction. My problem is with those who believe it as literal fact. There are plenty of people who argue it as fact. Look no further than Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis, and his "Creation Museum." Your argument should be with him, not me.

---

I presented my view and you continued to come back at me as though I made his argument.

When you argue with me, try challenging my views rather than someone else's.

---

I've told you all along, as long as you know its fiction I don't care if you read it as poetry.

---

Origin Myth Fiction

You are absolutely wrong. Most Christians hated the Nazis. Many lacked Bonhoffer's courage to stand up to them, but it's a damnable lie to blame all for so few.

Any serious examination of the Nazis reveals that they used religion to serve their publicity, pretty much none of them really believed in anything but power and themselves.

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

Oldbear83 said:

---

You are absolutely wrong. Most Christians hated the Nazis. Many lacked Bonhoffer's courage to stand up to them, but it's a damnable lie to blame all for so few.

Any serious examination of the Nazis reveals that they used religion to serve their publicity, pretty much none of them really believed in anything but power and themselves.

---

Germany was by and large a country made up of professing Christians. Many engaged in the activities of Nazi Germany, others were ambivalent or complacent at best. The same can be said of Italy its the fascist regime. It points out that there is no distinction in the behavior of Christians when compared to others. You could make the same analogy today in this country. People can be giving and caring for others, and they can be incredibly brutal in there treatment of others. Look no further than the tenor of the postings on this board by those who profess Christianity. To expand on your comment, many in church leadership have used religion to serve their publicity and for personal benefit.

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

---

It seems to me Waco exhibits the "fruits of the spirit" more than most who post on this board: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

---

It seems to me Waco exhibits the "fruits of the spirit" more than most who post on this board: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

---

Waco exhibits none of those.

I know many more immoral scientists than church-goers.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

---

It seems to me Waco exhibits the "fruits of the spirit" more than most who post on this board: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

---

Thank you

Matthew 23:6 "They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues, the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of 'Rabbi' by which they are addressed."

Waco is very much a Pharisee.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

---

It seems to me Waco exhibits the "fruits of the spirit" more than most who post on this board: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

---

in many ways yes, in some ways at times no.. we are all human and stumble in many ways along our walk with Christ.

4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

---

It seems to me Waco exhibits the "fruits of the spirit" more than most who post on this board: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

---

in many ways yes, in some ways at times no.. we are all human and stumble in many ways along our walk with Christ.

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So it is with us all...

4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

---

It seems to me Waco exhibits the "fruits of the spirit" more than most who post on this board: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

---

in many ways yes, in some ways at times no.. we are all human and stumble in many ways along our walk with Christ.

---

I'm the guy at the sanctuary saying "Lord be merciful to me a sinner"

Waco: "I'm the guy at the sanctuary saying "Lord be merciful to me a sinner""

Waco is the guy in the S365 forum pretending he alone is right with the Lord.

Tomorrow, his sermon will be some version of 'God Loves Me More Than You'

Waco1947 said:

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4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

---

It seems to me Waco exhibits the "fruits of the spirit" more than most who post on this board: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

---

in many ways yes, in some ways at times no.. we are all human and stumble in many ways along our walk with Christ.

---

I'm the guy at the sanctuary saying "Lord be merciful to me a sinner"

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Merciful? From what do you seek mercy?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

---

It seems to me Waco exhibits the "fruits of the spirit" more than most who post on this board: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

---

in many ways yes, in some ways at times no.. we are all human and stumble in many ways along our walk with Christ.

---

I'm the guy at the sanctuary saying "Lord be merciful to me a sinner"

---

Merciful? From what do you seek mercy?

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My sins.

Oldbear83 said:

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I know many more immoral scientists than church-goers.

---

Really? Sounds catchy. I know far more lay members to ordained preachers and priests who have been caught up in immorality, and even criminal activity. We can start in Waco if you like.

Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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4th and Inches said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

The Catholic Church had to apologize for its failures.

---

And they did. Most scientists who did wrong never owned up to it.

---

Nor did most lawyers, military leaders, clergy, and Christians.

---

You are, as usual, wrong about Christians, Waco.

Maybe you should drop the lie that you actually are one.

---

It seems to me Waco exhibits the "fruits of the spirit" more than most who post on this board: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

---

in many ways yes, in some ways at times no.. we are all human and stumble in many ways along our walk with Christ.

---

I'm the guy at the sanctuary saying "Lord be merciful to me a sinner"

---

Merciful? From what do you seek mercy?

---

My sins.

---

From what do you seek mercy, not for what. What will happen without mercy?

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I know many more immoral scientists than church-goers.

---

Really? Sounds catchy. I know far more lay members to ordained preachers and priests who have been caught up in immorality, and even criminal activity. We can start in Waco if you like.

---

No clergyman had anything to do with altering DNA in unborn children, but 'scentists' did.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/health/unethical-experiments/index.html

Clergymen had nothing to do with the Tuskegee Institute experiments, but 'scientists' did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

No clergyman ever deliberately injected cancer cells into patients, but 'scientists' did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_M._Southam

No clergyman proposed abusing children as a treatment for a medical condition, but 'scientists' did.

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/magazine/the-stuttering-doctor-s-monster-study.html



Your hate is targeting the wrong people, TS.

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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I know many more immoral scientists than church-goers.

---

Really? Sounds catchy. I know far more lay members to ordained preachers and priests who have been caught up in immorality, and even criminal activity. We can start in Waco if you like.

---

No clergyman had anything to do with altering DNA in unborn children, but 'scentists' did.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/health/unethical-experiments/index.html

Clergymen had nothing to do with the Tuskegee Institute experiments, but 'scientists' did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

No clergyman ever deliberately injected cancer cells into patients, but 'scientists' did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_M._Southam

No clergyman proposed abusing children as a treatment for a medical condition, but 'scientists' did.

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/magazine/the-stuttering-doctor-s-monster-study.html



Your hate is targeting the wrong people, TS.

---

How many of those were ordered at the hands of "good" Christians? None of them were Christians were they? If you want to dig back into history, those numbers are small in comparison to the number of crimes, sexual predators, and atrocities committed at the hands or sponsored by clergy, the Church Inquisition, and Islamic Clerics. Look no further than than the recorded atrocities of the OT god as written in the OT, or Islam today. But I don't excuse any wrong doing by any human, be it a scientist or clergy.


Run by Christian Churches (mostly Catholic) for the state.
Remains of more than 1,000 Indigenous children found at former residential schools in Canada
https://www.livescience.com/childrens-graves-residential-schools-canada.html

TS, you seem to struggle on knowing the difference in following Christianity and following Jesus Christ.

TS, your whole philosophy is based on hate, lies and malice.

I pity you.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TS, you seem to struggle on knowing the difference in following Christianity and following Jesus Christ.

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Are they not supposed to be one and the same? And how do you follow Christianity or Jesus Christ? It's all subjective. That's why there are so many differing beliefs, even within one denomination, much less all the varous sects and denominations within the Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, and Mormon churches. They all believe they are uniquely corrects.

TexasScientist said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TS, you seem to struggle on knowing the difference in following Christianity and following Jesus Christ.

---

Are they not supposed to be one and the same? And how do you follow Christianity or Jesus Christ? It's all subjective. That's why there are so many differing beliefs, even within one denomination, much less all the varous sects and denominations within the Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, and Mormon churches. They all believe they are uniquely corrects.

---

Christianity is made up of flawed people. Jesus Christ was not flawed.

Flawed Christians scare a lot of people away.

TexasScientist said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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TS, you seem to struggle on knowing the difference in following Christianity and following Jesus Christ.

---

Are they not supposed to be one and the same? And how do you follow Christianity or Jesus Christ? It's all subjective. That's why there are so many differing beliefs, even within one denomination, much less all the varous sects and denominations within the Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, and Mormon churches. They all believe they are uniquely corrects.

---

There are a lot of beliefs about law, science, history, etc., but some are more accurate than others. All is not subjective.

Oldbear83 said:

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TS, your whole philosophy is based on hate, lies and malice.

I pity you.

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No, you just want believe that because it fits your narrative. I dont' hate anyone. I do point out the absurdity of religion when confronted with objective truth and reality. I you weren't raised in a Christian culture, you would view it the same as you do Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, or any other religion.

TexasScientist said:

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I (sic) you weren't raised in a Christian culture, you would view it the same as you do Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, or any other religion.

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If I hadn't grown up to be a Baylor religion prof, I always thought being a Druid priest could be interesting.

TexasScientist said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TS, your whole philosophy is based on hate, lies and malice.

I pity you.

---

No, you just want believe that because it fits your narrative. I dont' hate anyone. I do point out the absurdity of religion when confronted with objective truth and reality. I you weren't raised in a Christian culture, you would view it the same as you do Islam, Jainism, Buddhism, or any other religion.

---

People in Africa haven't grown up in a Christian culture and yet there is a huge conversion to Christianity going on in Africa. The same goes for China. In 5-10 years, there will be more Christians in China than in the US

It took just a few hundred years for 2/3rds of the Roman Empire to convert to Christianity.

You grew up in a Christian culture and yet you aren't Christian.

Your logic is flawed.

I'll save your use of the descriptor "objective" for another time.

TS: ' I don't hate anyone."

Oh yes you do. Many of your posts reek of it, the bitterness against faith and anyone who lives by it, the inability to treat the Right as reasonable no matter what.

The only person who is fooled by that lie is yourself, but that's common, people lying to themselves to pretend they are morally right even when the opposite is so.

Oldbear83 said:

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TS, your whole philosophy is based on hate, lies and malice.

I pity you.

---

I feel sorry for you. You believe that you live in a hate-filled world. You see it everywhere. People make rational posts and you, per usual, see hate and anger. Over and over. I wish you lived in a happier place.