Liberals want war with Russia over Ukraine

56,227 Views | 755 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Mothra
jupiter
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10:34p, 2/6/22

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12:31a, 2/7/22

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FLBear5630
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In reply to jupiter • 5:56a, 2/7/22
jupiter said:



Gets it...
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Canon
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In reply to jupiter • 5:59a, 2/7/22
jupiter said:



My condolences to his family soon.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Canon • 6:05a, 2/7/22
Canon said:
jupiter said:



My condolences to his family soon.


Must have gotten them out last week!
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jupiter
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8:22p, 2/11/22



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GrowlTowel
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7:48a, 2/12/22
Amazing that the Simpsons got it right again. Thanks Brandon.

Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to GrowlTowel • 8:22a, 2/12/22
GrowlTowel said:
Amazing that the Simpsons got it right again. Thanks Brandon.

Ok, this is what message boards are here to provide!

This has to be the post of the year for this Political site.

Ok, South Park boys, your up!
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jupiter
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10:06a, 2/12/22



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Redbrickbear
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In reply to jupiter • 4:12p, 2/12/22
jupiter said:





So much disinformation going on.

Most it it meant to pump up defense industry stocks.
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jupiter
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11:57a, 2/13/22

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5:15p, 2/13/22

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whiterock
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5:35a, 2/14/22
Putin certainly could at any time invade Ukraine and own it all. But I don't think that's what he wants to do.

I think he'd back off with a simple pledge from NATO that Ukraine will never be a member state.

I'm not sure I'd be willing to give that pledge. I'd rather let him have eastern Ukraine in exchange for a guarantee of a neutral Western Ukraine.

I think the Biden Admin is hyping the tension so that anything less than a full-bore invasion of Ukraine will look like a diplomatic victory.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to whiterock • 6:08a, 2/14/22
whiterock said:
Putin certainly could at any time invade Ukraine and own it all. But I don't think that's what he wants to do.

I think he'd back off with a simple pledge from NATO that Ukraine will never be a member state.

I'm not sure I'd be willing to give that pledge. I'd rather let him have eastern Ukraine in exchange for a guarantee of a neutral Western Ukraine.

I think the Biden Admin is hyping the tension so that anything less than a full-bore invasion of Ukraine will look like a diplomatic victory.


I agree with your assessment. I actually like the idea of given him eastern Ukraine and take Western straight into NATO to give Ukraine some certainty moving forward. If Turkey can stay in NATO, Ukraine can fit.
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jupiter
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7:37p, 2/14/22

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In reply to STxBear81 • 10:38p, 2/14/22
BornAgain said:
We will do the opposite of what Biden says.

Biden says he opposed Russian troops invading Ukraine.

So you support Putin here?
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
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quash
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In reply to whiterock • 10:43p, 2/14/22
whiterock said:
Putin certainly could at any time invade Ukraine and own it all. But I don't think that's what he wants to do.

I think he'd back off with a simple pledge from NATO that Ukraine will never be a member state.

I'm not sure I'd be willing to give that pledge. I'd rather let him have eastern Ukraine in exchange for a guarantee of a neutral Western Ukraine.

I think the Biden Admin is hyping the tension so that anything less than a full-bore invasion of Ukraine will look like a diplomatic victory.

Putin can do a variety of things and sell it to the Russian people as a win.

But if he wants all of Ukraine he will get it and Biden won't stop him. See the Crimea.

And yes, President Clinton should have left a non-aligned buffer around Russia. NATO expansion poked the bear without delivering any gains for US interests.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
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FLBear5630
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In reply to quash • 5:45a, 2/15/22
quash said:
whiterock said:
Putin certainly could at any time invade Ukraine and own it all. But I don't think that's what he wants to do.

I think he'd back off with a simple pledge from NATO that Ukraine will never be a member state.

I'm not sure I'd be willing to give that pledge. I'd rather let him have eastern Ukraine in exchange for a guarantee of a neutral Western Ukraine.

I think the Biden Admin is hyping the tension so that anything less than a full-bore invasion of Ukraine will look like a diplomatic victory.

Putin can do a variety of things and sell it to the Russian people as a win.

But if he wants all of Ukraine he will get it and Biden won't stop him. See the Crimea.

And yes, President Clinton should have left a non-aligned buffer around Russia. NATO expansion poked the bear without delivering any gains for US interests.


That is revisionist. Putin and Russia have changed their desires several times since the break up of the Soviet Union. There was a time Putin wanted to align closer to Europe and even floated Russia joining NATO (remember that?). In Afghanistan Putin had the Russian military cooperate with the US.

Trying to say now in 2022 that Bush, Clinton or Bush Jr dropped the ball is not accurate, they dealt with the Putin of their time. Putin since about 2010 has now been a Rus-Asia Putin, rather than Rus-Eur Putin. To keep out Poland and the Baltics because Putin can't make up his mind is not fair to either

You also seem to disregard what those Nations want to do, I fear of Putin. That is what Putin wants.
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william
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6:44a, 2/15/22
pelosi et al are long energy and defense stocks.

so we might as well.

- KKM

{ sipping coffee }

arbyscoin - the only crypto you can eat.
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quash
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 10:59a, 2/15/22
RMF5630 said:
quash said:
whiterock said:
Putin certainly could at any time invade Ukraine and own it all. But I don't think that's what he wants to do.

I think he'd back off with a simple pledge from NATO that Ukraine will never be a member state.

I'm not sure I'd be willing to give that pledge. I'd rather let him have eastern Ukraine in exchange for a guarantee of a neutral Western Ukraine.

I think the Biden Admin is hyping the tension so that anything less than a full-bore invasion of Ukraine will look like a diplomatic victory.

Putin can do a variety of things and sell it to the Russian people as a win.

But if he wants all of Ukraine he will get it and Biden won't stop him. See the Crimea.

And yes, President Clinton should have left a non-aligned buffer around Russia. NATO expansion poked the bear without delivering any gains for US interests.


That is revisionist. Putin and Russia have changed their desires several times since the break up of the Soviet Union. There was a time Putin wanted to align closer to Europe and even floated Russia joining NATO (remember that?). In Afghanistan Putin had the Russian military cooperate with the US.

Trying to say now in 2022 that Bush, Clinton or Bush Jr dropped the ball is not accurate, they dealt with the Putin of their time. Putin since about 2010 has now been a Rus-Asia Putin, rather than Rus-Eur Putin. To keep out Poland and the Baltics because Putin can't make up his mind is not fair to either

You also seem to disregard what those Nations want to do, I fear of Putin. That is what Putin wants.


I didn't revise anything and didn't mention any presidents except Clinton.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
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FLBear5630
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In reply to quash • 11:59a, 2/15/22
quash said:
RMF5630 said:
quash said:
whiterock said:
Putin certainly could at any time invade Ukraine and own it all. But I don't think that's what he wants to do.

I think he'd back off with a simple pledge from NATO that Ukraine will never be a member state.

I'm not sure I'd be willing to give that pledge. I'd rather let him have eastern Ukraine in exchange for a guarantee of a neutral Western Ukraine.

I think the Biden Admin is hyping the tension so that anything less than a full-bore invasion of Ukraine will look like a diplomatic victory.

Putin can do a variety of things and sell it to the Russian people as a win.

But if he wants all of Ukraine he will get it and Biden won't stop him. See the Crimea.

And yes, President Clinton should have left a non-aligned buffer around Russia. NATO expansion poked the bear without delivering any gains for US interests.


That is revisionist. Putin and Russia have changed their desires several times since the break up of the Soviet Union. There was a time Putin wanted to align closer to Europe and even floated Russia joining NATO (remember that?). In Afghanistan Putin had the Russian military cooperate with the US.

Trying to say now in 2022 that Bush, Clinton or Bush Jr dropped the ball is not accurate, they dealt with the Putin of their time. Putin since about 2010 has now been a Rus-Asia Putin, rather than Rus-Eur Putin. To keep out Poland and the Baltics because Putin can't make up his mind is not fair to either

You also seem to disregard what those Nations want to do, I fear of Putin. That is what Putin wants.


I didn't revise anything and didn't mention any presidents except Clinton.
Putin discussed joining NATO and with Clinton. My point is that Putin did not have the same opinion then of NATO as he does now. The Presidents dealing with him dealt with the information at the time, including Clinton. If I remember correctly, Putin during the Clinton years saw Russia's future to the west. Now, to the east.
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Mothra
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 12:57p, 2/15/22
RMF5630 said:
jupiter said:



Gets it...
Most of us do. The question is, and has always been, what to do about it. You would wholeheartedly send in American troops to fight and die for Russia.

This is where we, and most reasonable people, differ.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Mothra • 1:09p, 2/15/22
Mothra said:
RMF5630 said:
jupiter said:



Gets it...
Most of us do. The question is, and has always been, what to do about it. You would wholeheartedly send in American troops to fight and die for Russia.

This is where we, and most reasonable people, differ.
For the hundredth time, I would send US troops to support NATO. If NATO gets into it with Russia, US cannot stand on the sideline. I have not heard ANYONE say those troops are going into Ukraine. They are in NATO countries. If Russia gets into it with NATO, US should be part of coalition. I did not "whole heartily say to send US troops to fight and die for Russia", a little bit melodramatic. Don't you think?
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Mothra
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 2:08p, 2/15/22
RMF5630 said:
Mothra said:
RMF5630 said:
jupiter said:



Gets it...
Most of us do. The question is, and has always been, what to do about it. You would wholeheartedly send in American troops to fight and die for Russia.

This is where we, and most reasonable people, differ.
For the hundredth time, I would send US troops to support NATO. If NATO gets into it with Russia, US cannot stand on the sideline. I have not heard ANYONE say those troops are going into Ukraine. They are in NATO countries. If Russia gets into it with NATO, US should be part of coalition. I did not "whole heartily say to send US troops to fight and die for Russia", a little bit melodramatic. Don't you think?
I am not sure why you keep making this distinction. Do you wish NATO would send in troops (including US troops) to fight Russia if they invade or not? I thought your answer was yes, NATO should do so. Correct me if I am wrong.

If the answer is yes, then my statement is correct - you would wholeheartedly send in American troops to fight and die for Russia. The fact you want NATO to send them to fight and die really is a distinction without a difference.
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Mothra • 2:25p, 2/15/22
Mothra said:
RMF5630 said:
Mothra said:
RMF5630 said:
jupiter said:



Gets it...
Most of us do. The question is, and has always been, what to do about it. You would wholeheartedly send in American troops to fight and die for Russia.

This is where we, and most reasonable people, differ.
For the hundredth time, I would send US troops to support NATO. If NATO gets into it with Russia, US cannot stand on the sideline. I have not heard ANYONE say those troops are going into Ukraine. They are in NATO countries. If Russia gets into it with NATO, US should be part of coalition. I did not "whole heartily say to send US troops to fight and die for Russia", a little bit melodramatic. Don't you think?
I am not sure why you keep making this distinction. Do you wish NATO would send in troops (including US troops) to fight Russia if they invade or not? I thought your answer was yes, NATO should do so. Correct me if I am wrong.

If the answer is yes, then my statement is correct - you would wholeheartedly send in American troops to fight and die for Russia. The fact you want NATO to send them to fight and die really is a distinction without a difference.
My answer is that we need to stand by NATO. The NATO Commander is an American General, no one is going into Ukraine without the US sending them. Do I want US troops in Ukraine, no. Would I support if NATO sends them, yes. I seriously doubt that US Armor and Infantry are going into Ukraine. Bottomline, we cannot sit this out if NATO decides to act.

I am really at a loss on how to better explain it. You cannot be a world leader and let the other nations act, including both Russia and China. Whether I want, whole heartedly want or not is irrelevant. You react to the situation at hand. The US and NATO are not driving this. Russia stands down, no engagement. Sorry, but that is the answer.

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Mothra
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 2:46p, 2/15/22
RMF5630 said:
Mothra said:
RMF5630 said:
Mothra said:
RMF5630 said:
jupiter said:



Gets it...
Most of us do. The question is, and has always been, what to do about it. You would wholeheartedly send in American troops to fight and die for Russia.

This is where we, and most reasonable people, differ.
For the hundredth time, I would send US troops to support NATO. If NATO gets into it with Russia, US cannot stand on the sideline. I have not heard ANYONE say those troops are going into Ukraine. They are in NATO countries. If Russia gets into it with NATO, US should be part of coalition. I did not "whole heartily say to send US troops to fight and die for Russia", a little bit melodramatic. Don't you think?
I am not sure why you keep making this distinction. Do you wish NATO would send in troops (including US troops) to fight Russia if they invade or not? I thought your answer was yes, NATO should do so. Correct me if I am wrong.

If the answer is yes, then my statement is correct - you would wholeheartedly send in American troops to fight and die for Russia. The fact you want NATO to send them to fight and die really is a distinction without a difference.
My answer is that we need to stand by NATO. The NATO Commander is an American General, no one is going into Ukraine without the US sending them. Do I want US troops in Ukraine, no. Would I support if NATO sends them, yes. I seriously doubt that US Armor and Infantry are going into Ukraine. Bottomline, we cannot sit this out if NATO decides to act.

I am really at a loss on how to better explain it. You cannot be a world leader and let the other nations act, including both Russia and China. Whether I want, whole heartedly want or not is irrelevant. You react to the situation at hand. The US and NATO are not driving this. Russia stands down, no engagement. Sorry, but that is the answer.

Let me try this one more time: If Russia invades, do you believe that NATO should send NATO troops (including US troops) into Ukraine to fight the Russians or not? Simple yes or no will clear up any confusion.

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jupiter
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3:04p, 2/15/22
Get a camera on every square inch of the Ukrainian border watching for false flag attacks to ensure this "retreat" is real
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4:19p, 2/15/22



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Osodecentx
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In reply to Mothra • 4:31p, 2/15/22
Mothra said:
RMF5630 said:
jupiter said:



Gets it...
Most of us do. The question is, and has always been, what to do about it. You would wholeheartedly send in American troops to fight and die for Russia.

This is where we, and most reasonable people, differ.
Perhaps now most understand that Putin will do something radical if ever Ukraine tries to join NATO. Wouldn't risk it (offering Ukraine a spot in NATO).

Maybe this is what Putin wanted, i.e fear of consequences if Ukraine joined. If I were Ukraine or NATO, message received. Now, everyone stand down.
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Mothra
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In reply to FLBear5630 • 4:32p, 2/15/22
RMF5630?
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FLBear5630
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In reply to Mothra • 6:12p, 2/15/22
Mothra said:
RMF5630?


Mothra?
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jupiter
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6:36p, 2/15/22


Quote:
President Joe Biden said the United States could not confirm Russian claims made on Tuesday that they were moving troops away from the Ukrainian border, instead warning that the threat of an invasion into Ukraine remains possible.
"That would be good, but we have not yet verified that." In fact, he said, "We have not verified the Russian military units are returning to their home bases. Indeed, our analysts indicate that they remain very much in a threatening position." Russia still has 150,000 troops "encircling Ukraine," he said.
As the president publicly committed to continue diplomacy with Russian President Vladimir Putin, analysts say they are skeptical of Moscow's claims and intentions due to satellites footage over the past 48 hours, recent actions from the Russian assembly, and Tuesday's cyberattacks aimed at Ukrainian banks and defense targets.





Quote:
Plots and Fake Attacks
On January 23, the British government, acting in cooperation with the United States, announced details of a purported Russian plot to install a pro-Moscow regime in Kyiv. It even went so far as to name a pro-Russia former member of the Ukrainian parliament as Putin's preferred puppet.
On February 3, the Biden administration released information about a Russian scheme to film a fake attack on Russian territory or on Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine to manufacture a justification for an invasion. The administration said Russia had already recruited people who would be involved in the fake attack. Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby said the plan was to result in "a very graphic propaganda video, which would include corpses and actors who would be depicting mourners and images of destroyed locations, as well as military equipment at the hands of Ukraine or the West, even to the point where some of this equipment would be made to look like it was Western-supplied."

lists are naturally skeptical of the U.S. intelligence, given the U.S. government's history making claims that did not pan outmost notoriously about the presence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which was used to justify the U.S. invasion in 2003. But there is indeed a long history of Russia using so-called false-flag operations to justify aggression. In 1939, the Soviet Union shelled its own troops near its border with Finland to justify an invasion of that country. In 1968, KGB agents in what was then Czechoslovakia concocted threats against the Soviet Union and even claimed to have found a "Made in USA" arms cache to justify a Red Army crackdown on the Prague Spring reform movement.In 1999, Russian intelligence operatives are believed to have bombed Russian apartment buildings to justify an invasion of Chechnya. And the Russian invasions of Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014 were both accompanied by copious disinformation, including the use of "little green men" (i.e., soldiers in green uniforms devoid of Russian army insignia) to disguise the role of Russian military forces. The Kremlin even blamed the CIA for shooting down a Malaysian airliner over Ukraine in 2014an act actually carried out by Russia-backed separatists using a Russian air defense system

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9:25p, 2/15/22

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10:00p, 2/15/22



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10:11p, 2/15/22





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