Oh Biden will 'sanction' Russia.......and the trumpets will blare throughout the US on how tough they are.BornAgain said:
I wish we would sanction them. I don't believe Biden has the balls to do anything
Quote:
The liberal media won't admit it, but the reason Russian forces are entering Ukraine can be explained in two wordsJoe Biden. In fact, thanks to Biden, the U.S. is paying for the Russian invasion. His energy policy of reducing American production, stopping the almost completed keystone pipelines, no drilling on federal lands, new regulation regarding oil and gas drilling, and much more spiked the price of energy. For example, in 2020 the price of natural gas was $4.36/1,000 cubic feet, 2021 prices averaged $9/1,000 cubic feet.
Quote:
Before Biden became President, the U.S. was energy independent and an exporter of energy. The lower American production and removing Trump's restrictions on the Nordstream natural gas pipeline from Russia to Germany. His policies made other countries more reliant on Russian gas. Giving Putin leverage on other countries such as Germany and doubling the price. All that extra money went straight into Russia's pockets. Those new profits helped Russia raise the funds to continue Putin's dream of the greater Russia of the USSR.
On top of the higher prices and the increased dependence on Russian energy, the mishandling of the Afghan withdrawal and removing some of the Iran sanctions showed Biden to be a weak President. Putin is no idiot. All of Biden's flawed policies and feeble foreign policy made the Russian president understand that if he was ever going to get Ukraine back in Russia's clutches, this was it.
ATL Bear said:
So do we allow the two break off areas of Ukraine to go independent or fight to maintain them as part of the country? If we allow it to move to independence/Russian sphere of influence, do we then get the rest of Ukraine in NATO? What about elections for independence in the two break off areas?
Agreed....nothing over there is our fight.quash said:ATL Bear said:
So do we allow the two break off areas of Ukraine to go independent or fight to maintain them as part of the country? If we allow it to move to independence/Russian sphere of influence, do we then get the rest of Ukraine in NATO? What about elections for independence in the two break off areas?
What direct American interests would merit a fight for the Donbas? And I doubt election results matter to Putin.
If the Donbas gets overrun that provides enough of a buffer to add the remainder of Ukraine to NATO.
Ukraine is the biggest country in Europe, it would stretch from Paris to Prague and then some. Again, it would suck for Ukraine but nothing over there is our fight.
whiterock said:
I don't think Putin invades Ukraine with conventional forces to force regime change and install a pliant puppet. I think we will see an intensification of the civil war in the Russian-majority provinces of eastern Ukraine (thanks to insertion of large numbers of plain-clothes Russian special forces) followed by a declaration of independence by the contested provinces
Putin will recognize the breakway provinces, and threaten Ukraine not to intervene with conventional forces. When Ukraine responds to reclaim those provinces, as they must, Russia will come to their defense.
Or somesuch. Russia will use asymmetrical warfare to get what it really wants....a land bridge to Crimea....and avoid the kind of conventional invasion scenario being floated in the media. That will make it very difficult for the international community to mount a diplomatic response, and virtually impossible for NATO to employ an robust conventional response.
Our goal is to make Ukraine either succeed as is or become an ungovernable albatross to hang around the neck of the Russian bear
JUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
Good on Germany, finally.Doc Holliday said:
Uh ohJUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
Not good for Germany…J.R. said:Good on Germany, finally.Doc Holliday said:
Uh ohJUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
MORE - Scholz: "The certification has been stopped, which means Nord Stream 2 cannot go online."
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
55% of Germany's natural gas demand is met by Russia's Gazprom. Gas storage facilities in the country are currently only 31% full.
Yeah, that worked. Problem, besides it being a movie character, is that Harry Callahan would pull the trigger.Cobretti said:
Freezing their citizens is good?J.R. said:Good on Germany, finally.Doc Holliday said:
Uh ohJUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
How many germans are going to freeze during this spring for shutting down a pipeline that has never had gas in it?Redbrickbear said:Freezing their citizens is good?J.R. said:Good on Germany, finally.Doc Holliday said:
Uh ohJUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
Getting the middle of an Anglo-America vs Russia fight is good?
Germany does not want to get in the middle of a fight like that with enemies on two fronts.
This ignores the long term interest of Germany in relation to what Putin is doing. Germany is doing the right thing here for Germany.Redbrickbear said:Freezing their citizens is good?J.R. said:Good on Germany, finally.Doc Holliday said:
Uh ohJUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
Getting the middle of an Anglo-America vs Russia fight is good?
Germany does not want to get in the middle of a fight like that with enemies on two fronts.
Probably true.EatMoreSalmon said:This ignores the long term interest of Germany in relation to what Putin is doing. Germany is doing the right thing here for Germany.Redbrickbear said:Freezing their citizens is good?J.R. said:Good on Germany, finally.Doc Holliday said:
Uh ohJUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
Getting the middle of an Anglo-America vs Russia fight is good?
Germany does not want to get in the middle of a fight like that with enemies on two fronts.
If you're gonna listen to any speech about #Ukraine 🇺🇦, let it be this one.
— Thomas van Linge (@ThomasVLinge) February 22, 2022
The Kenya ambassador to the UNSC perfectly explains how people across Africa understand Ukraine, and what the Kremlin's acts of aggression mean in our post-colonial world. pic.twitter.com/0gTuAni0DC
Så öppet anspråk på ett annat lands territorium har vi i Europa inte sett sedan Hitler och Stalin var i farten... https://t.co/iraLPDd872
— Patrik Oksanen (@patrikoksanen) February 22, 2022
NO. Huge leverage to tell Putin to back the eff off. We are working behind the scenes to figure out a way to make up the difference . Not going to be easy freeze and ship LNG by boat to Europe.Redbrickbear said:Freezing their citizens is good?J.R. said:Good on Germany, finally.Doc Holliday said:
Uh ohJUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
Getting the middle of an Anglo-America vs Russia fight is good?
Germany does not want to get in the middle of a fight like that with enemies on two fronts.
exactly. He has no clue what he is talking about, per the usual.timetraveler said:How many germans are going to freeze during this spring for shutting down a pipeline that has never had gas in it?Redbrickbear said:Freezing their citizens is good?J.R. said:Good on Germany, finally.Doc Holliday said:
Uh ohJUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
Getting the middle of an Anglo-America vs Russia fight is good?
Germany does not want to get in the middle of a fight like that with enemies on two fronts.
A senior @WhiteHouse official on camera calling it an “invasion.” https://t.co/ZS2AGrjlEg
— Steve Herman (@W7VOA) February 22, 2022
NEW: In a conference call with reporters on responding to Putin, and what comes next, a senior admin official suggested that Russian troops in Donetsk/Luhansk *alone* may *not* warrant the "swift and severe" sanctions the admin has been previewing.
— Ali Rogin (@AliRogin) February 21, 2022
Is this really it? https://t.co/Likm8G8XWb
— Jim Sciutto (@jimsciutto) February 21, 2022
If your point was it is stupid for Germany to shutdown nuclear plants and depend on Russia for energy then I agree with that. Given the quality of life of Germans vs Russians, Russians might have to eat less while Germans will buy less expensive cheese.Redbrickbear said:
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/shutting-down-nuclear-and-coal-can-germany-maintain-supply-security-renewables-alone
Germany says it will stop burning coal by 2038
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/germany-pull-plug-3-its-last-6-nuclear-power-plants-n1286771
They are also shutting down more of their nuclear plants.
They are going to continue to be dependent on natural gas from Russia (Nord stream 2 pipeline or not).
There's the complete Chamberlin response. Biden has become Neville Chamberlin, although I do think Chamberlin was a better leader.Jacques Strap said:
"I think what you're going to see is that Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do."A senior @WhiteHouse official on camera calling it an “invasion.” https://t.co/ZS2AGrjlEg
— Steve Herman (@W7VOA) February 22, 2022NEW: In a conference call with reporters on responding to Putin, and what comes next, a senior admin official suggested that Russian troops in Donetsk/Luhansk *alone* may *not* warrant the "swift and severe" sanctions the admin has been previewing.
— Ali Rogin (@AliRogin) February 21, 2022
To be fair, Russia has used control of existing pipelines as a negotiating tool in the past. It's not unlikely they will do the same in response to this decision. But Europe needs to get away from Russia anyway, so this may be the only way they make solid moves to do that.J.R. said:exactly. He has no clue what he is talking about, per the usual.timetraveler said:How many germans are going to freeze during this spring for shutting down a pipeline that has never had gas in it?Redbrickbear said:Freezing their citizens is good?J.R. said:Good on Germany, finally.Doc Holliday said:
Uh ohJUST IN - Germany suspends the approval process for the Russian-German Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, Chancellor Scholz announced.
— Disclose.tv (@disclosetv) February 22, 2022
Getting the middle of an Anglo-America vs Russia fight is good?
Germany does not want to get in the middle of a fight like that with enemies on two fronts.
Just the Sudetenland.bularry said:Does Russia want all of Ukraine? or just that Eastern strip? I'm not suremidgett said:
Read recently (can't find the article) about Putin's negotiating style. This is how he was taught coming up in the Russian leadership.
You go to the meeting. You take your armed thugs with you. The other party will come to the meeting and bring their armed thugs, too.
If the two parties can't negotiate a deal acceptable to both parties, blood will spill. No one wants there to be blood on their own side.
If the other party doesn't come armed, you decide all the details of the deal.
If true, Putin is looking for weakness. He knows if the US shows a strong hand and the willingness to use it, that an agreement must be reached. If the US doesn't show a strong hand, he's gonna do what he wants.
It'll be interesting to see if Putin thinks Biden is serious. If not, Ukraine may be Russia's soon.
Serious question.D. C. Bear said:Just the Sudetenland.bularry said:Does Russia want all of Ukraine? or just that Eastern strip? I'm not suremidgett said:
Read recently (can't find the article) about Putin's negotiating style. This is how he was taught coming up in the Russian leadership.
You go to the meeting. You take your armed thugs with you. The other party will come to the meeting and bring their armed thugs, too.
If the two parties can't negotiate a deal acceptable to both parties, blood will spill. No one wants there to be blood on their own side.
If the other party doesn't come armed, you decide all the details of the deal.
If true, Putin is looking for weakness. He knows if the US shows a strong hand and the willingness to use it, that an agreement must be reached. If the US doesn't show a strong hand, he's gonna do what he wants.
It'll be interesting to see if Putin thinks Biden is serious. If not, Ukraine may be Russia's soon.
Yep,timetraveler said:If your point was it is stupid for Germany to shutdown nuclear plants and depend on Russia for energy then I agree with that. Given the quality of life of Germans vs Russians, Russians might have to eat less while Germans will buy less expensive cheese.Redbrickbear said:
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/shutting-down-nuclear-and-coal-can-germany-maintain-supply-security-renewables-alone
Germany says it will stop burning coal by 2038
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/germany-pull-plug-3-its-last-6-nuclear-power-plants-n1286771
They are also shutting down more of their nuclear plants.
They are going to continue to be dependent on natural gas from Russia (Nord stream 2 pipeline or not).
Yes.Redbrickbear said:Serious question.D. C. Bear said:Just the Sudetenland.bularry said:Does Russia want all of Ukraine? or just that Eastern strip? I'm not suremidgett said:
Read recently (can't find the article) about Putin's negotiating style. This is how he was taught coming up in the Russian leadership.
You go to the meeting. You take your armed thugs with you. The other party will come to the meeting and bring their armed thugs, too.
If the two parties can't negotiate a deal acceptable to both parties, blood will spill. No one wants there to be blood on their own side.
If the other party doesn't come armed, you decide all the details of the deal.
If true, Putin is looking for weakness. He knows if the US shows a strong hand and the willingness to use it, that an agreement must be reached. If the US doesn't show a strong hand, he's gonna do what he wants.
It'll be interesting to see if Putin thinks Biden is serious. If not, Ukraine may be Russia's soon.
Do you think fighting a war in 1938 to stop ethnic Germans from joining a united Germany would have been the correct call?
Are you looking back with 20/20 vision...with the knowledge that Hitler would later violate that agreement.D. C. Bear said:Yes.Redbrickbear said:Serious question.D. C. Bear said:Just the Sudetenland.bularry said:Does Russia want all of Ukraine? or just that Eastern strip? I'm not suremidgett said:
Read recently (can't find the article) about Putin's negotiating style. This is how he was taught coming up in the Russian leadership.
You go to the meeting. You take your armed thugs with you. The other party will come to the meeting and bring their armed thugs, too.
If the two parties can't negotiate a deal acceptable to both parties, blood will spill. No one wants there to be blood on their own side.
If the other party doesn't come armed, you decide all the details of the deal.
If true, Putin is looking for weakness. He knows if the US shows a strong hand and the willingness to use it, that an agreement must be reached. If the US doesn't show a strong hand, he's gonna do what he wants.
It'll be interesting to see if Putin thinks Biden is serious. If not, Ukraine may be Russia's soon.
Do you think fighting a war in 1938 to stop ethnic Germans from joining a united Germany would have been the correct call?
Taking on Hitler in 1938 would have been the right call. (Based on the situation at the time, not just in hindsight). That is all I am saying.Redbrickbear said:Are you looking back with 20/20 vision...with the knowledge that Hitler would later violate that agreement.D. C. Bear said:Yes.Redbrickbear said:Serious question.D. C. Bear said:Just the Sudetenland.bularry said:Does Russia want all of Ukraine? or just that Eastern strip? I'm not suremidgett said:
Read recently (can't find the article) about Putin's negotiating style. This is how he was taught coming up in the Russian leadership.
You go to the meeting. You take your armed thugs with you. The other party will come to the meeting and bring their armed thugs, too.
If the two parties can't negotiate a deal acceptable to both parties, blood will spill. No one wants there to be blood on their own side.
If the other party doesn't come armed, you decide all the details of the deal.
If true, Putin is looking for weakness. He knows if the US shows a strong hand and the willingness to use it, that an agreement must be reached. If the US doesn't show a strong hand, he's gonna do what he wants.
It'll be interesting to see if Putin thinks Biden is serious. If not, Ukraine may be Russia's soon.
Do you think fighting a war in 1938 to stop ethnic Germans from joining a united Germany would have been the correct call?
Not putting yourself in the shoes of world leaders at the time.
No one in 1938 thought it was just to fight a war like that over the Sudetenland... compromise was what the people of Europe, America, and the world wanted.
You are also engaging in a logical fallacy of post world war II.....every political rival is Hitler and every crisis is Munich 1938.
I don't see how anything would have been different...expect that the Allies would not have the justification that Hitler's later invasion of Poland gave.D. C. Bear said:Taking on Hitler in 1938 would have been the right call. (Based on the situation at the time, not just in hindsight). That is all I am saying.Redbrickbear said:Are you looking back with 20/20 vision...with the knowledge that Hitler would later violate that agreement.D. C. Bear said:Yes.Redbrickbear said:Serious question.D. C. Bear said:Just the Sudetenland.bularry said:Does Russia want all of Ukraine? or just that Eastern strip? I'm not suremidgett said:
Read recently (can't find the article) about Putin's negotiating style. This is how he was taught coming up in the Russian leadership.
You go to the meeting. You take your armed thugs with you. The other party will come to the meeting and bring their armed thugs, too.
If the two parties can't negotiate a deal acceptable to both parties, blood will spill. No one wants there to be blood on their own side.
If the other party doesn't come armed, you decide all the details of the deal.
If true, Putin is looking for weakness. He knows if the US shows a strong hand and the willingness to use it, that an agreement must be reached. If the US doesn't show a strong hand, he's gonna do what he wants.
It'll be interesting to see if Putin thinks Biden is serious. If not, Ukraine may be Russia's soon.
Do you think fighting a war in 1938 to stop ethnic Germans from joining a united Germany would have been the correct call?
Not putting yourself in the shoes of world leaders at the time.
No one in 1938 thought it was just to fight a war like that over the Sudetenland... compromise was what the people of Europe, America, and the world wanted.
You are also engaging in a logical fallacy of post world war II.....every political rival is Hitler and every crisis is Munich 1938.
If China decides to take advantage of their leverage instead of put pressure on NATO then Russia is going to crumble. Germany won't have an energy crisis anytime soon but certainly is going to continue to see increased prices. I expect they rollback some nuclear closures or at least stop the ones they have planned to shutdown. If the sanctions last then I also suspect NATO countries to share the burden.Redbrickbear said:Yep,timetraveler said:If your point was it is stupid for Germany to shutdown nuclear plants and depend on Russia for energy then I agree with that. Given the quality of life of Germans vs Russians, Russians might have to eat less while Germans will buy less expensive cheese.Redbrickbear said:
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/shutting-down-nuclear-and-coal-can-germany-maintain-supply-security-renewables-alone
Germany says it will stop burning coal by 2038
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/germany-pull-plug-3-its-last-6-nuclear-power-plants-n1286771
They are also shutting down more of their nuclear plants.
They are going to continue to be dependent on natural gas from Russia (Nord stream 2 pipeline or not).
I think it is very stupid for Germany to give up its nuclear and coal plants.
But they did elect the SDP (socialist-liberal party) and the Greens (far left) into power in the last election.
I also don't think they are serious about shutting down Nord steam 2 pipeline long term...they have halted it right now because of the diplomatic crisis...but they will no doubt eventually fully open it.
The Germans have halted just the "certification" of the pipeline...but the pipeline is already completed. Basically, they are just saying they will not yet sign off on the last step right now.
The German government will eventually have no choice...if they are not going to have nuclear or coal power...they will have to burn natural gas from Russia. And the pipeline is the cheapest most effective way to do that.
What would China get out of a Russian collapse?timetraveler said:If China decides to take advantage of their leverage instead of put pressure on NATO then Russia is going to crumble. Germany won't have an energy crisis anytime soon but certainly is going to continue to see increased prices. I expect they rollback some nuclear closures or at least stop the ones they have planned to shutdown. If the sanctions last then I also suspect NATO countries to share the burden.Redbrickbear said:
Yep,
I think it is very stupid for Germany to give up its nuclear and coal plants.
But they did elect the SDP (socialist-liberal party) and the Greens (far left) into power in the last election.
I also don't think they are serious about shutting down Nord steam 2 pipeline long term...they have halted it right now because of the diplomatic crisis...but they will no doubt eventually fully open it.
The Germans have halted just the "certification" of the pipeline...but the pipeline is already completed. Basically, they are just saying they will not yet sign off on the last step right now.
The German government will eventually have no choice...if they are not going to have nuclear or coal power...they will have to burn natural gas from Russia. And the pipeline is the cheapest most effective way to do that.
Long term Russia is really putting a lot of faith in their Chinese relationship though.
Redbrickbear said:I don't see how anything would have been different...expect that the Allies would not have the justification that Hitler's later invasion of Poland gave.D. C. Bear said:Taking on Hitler in 1938 would have been the right call. (Based on the situation at the time, not just in hindsight). That is all I am saying.Redbrickbear said:Are you looking back with 20/20 vision...with the knowledge that Hitler would later violate that agreement.D. C. Bear said:Yes.Redbrickbear said:Serious question.D. C. Bear said:Just the Sudetenland.bularry said:Does Russia want all of Ukraine? or just that Eastern strip? I'm not suremidgett said:
Read recently (can't find the article) about Putin's negotiating style. This is how he was taught coming up in the Russian leadership.
You go to the meeting. You take your armed thugs with you. The other party will come to the meeting and bring their armed thugs, too.
If the two parties can't negotiate a deal acceptable to both parties, blood will spill. No one wants there to be blood on their own side.
If the other party doesn't come armed, you decide all the details of the deal.
If true, Putin is looking for weakness. He knows if the US shows a strong hand and the willingness to use it, that an agreement must be reached. If the US doesn't show a strong hand, he's gonna do what he wants.
It'll be interesting to see if Putin thinks Biden is serious. If not, Ukraine may be Russia's soon.
Do you think fighting a war in 1938 to stop ethnic Germans from joining a united Germany would have been the correct call?
Not putting yourself in the shoes of world leaders at the time.
No one in 1938 thought it was just to fight a war like that over the Sudetenland... compromise was what the people of Europe, America, and the world wanted.
You are also engaging in a logical fallacy of post world war II.....every political rival is Hitler and every crisis is Munich 1938.
The Germans would have smashed the French and British just like they did in 1939.
The Soviets would have remained neutral and kept their friendship-alliance pack with Germany.
The British would have retreated to the home island...and begged the American for support.
And the Americans would have stayed out of it...for a least another two years of so.
WWII in Europe would have played out the same way...just starting earlier.
