whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

It's never too late to do the right thing. We can have immediate impact on Russian policy decisions, and that impact can grow over time. But we must do right things. This admin has done a few things right (emphasis on "few").

But you hit the 10-ring in your first sentence. We (and most of the developed world) used our period in the sunlight of a uni-polar world to engage in mass delusion about green energy. We drove up the cost of competitive, affordable, reliable energy (CARE) with never-ending tax and regulatory schemes, while simultaneously driving down the cost of expense, capricous renewable energy methods (EXCREMent) with multi-level rebate, subsidy, and regulatory avoidance schemes. We though we were saving the planet, creating jobs, and making ourselves energy dependent.

The problem with delusions is that they eventually get shattered by reality. And the reality is, the rest of the world isn't in the delusion. They think cost is more important than carbon, and they are going to burn coal and oil. And there are a bunch of suppliers of coal and oil who will sell it to them. And nearly all of those coal and oil suppliers are NOT democracies. By remaining grounded in the real world, those suppliers and consumers have marginalized us. By chasing all that expensive energy, we are adding to the cost of our manufactured goods where we already had labor cost disadvantages. And we cannot supply renewable energy to the developing world offset the leverage that non-democratic oil/gas/coal producing nations gain from being low-cost providers to the rest of the world.

We simply must come back to planet earth and use the resources we have to compete in the markets that exist. We are the Saudi Arabia of coal. We have enormous quantities of natural gas. We have the ability to be energy dominant. And we must do it.

There is no climate crisis.
There is only a common sense crisis.

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

---

Yes, my problem is that his "believe" could have nothing to do with what we do. History is full of tyrants that have made catastrophic moves based on their "believes" that went forward anyway after appeasement to prevent the same outcome.

We can give him what he wants, avoid acts to prevent "escalation. and even harm ourselves, it does not mean a thing. If Putin thinks that nukes are needed to get what he wants or even to send a message, he will do it and make up a reason. We need to protect ourselves, our allies and prospective allies. At some point, it will turn into sides.

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

---

If Putin thinks that nukes are needed to get what he wants or even to send a message, he will do it and make up a reason.

---

No. That's panic talking, and it raises the risk of a bad outcome if you listen.

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

---

If Putin thinks that nukes are needed to get what he wants or even to send a message, he will do it and make up a reason.

---

No. That's panic talking, and it raises the risk of a bad outcome if you listen.

---

LOL!!! Sam talking as if he recognizes panic. It's been staring at him in the mirror for 2 years and he still can't identify it. LOLOLOLOL!!!!

You're projecting again.

Sam Lowry said:

---

You're projecting again.

---

Notice that the argument to refute you is:
LOLOLOLOOLLOLOLLOL

That's all you need to know

PELOSI: "In fact, when I spoke to President Zelenskyy I said 'Billie Jean King sends you her regards and wants to know how she can help in any event.'" pic.twitter.com/uKkrj8cdVv

— RNC Research (@RNCResearch) March 9, 2022

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

---

If Putin thinks that nukes are needed to get what he wants or even to send a message, he will do it and make up a reason.

---

No. That's panic talking, and it raises the risk of a bad outcome if you listen.

---

I have a long list of Putins disregard for moral, logical and diplomatic standards from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya.

What do you have to back up your position that Putin will show restraint to get what he wants?

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

---

If Putin thinks that nukes are needed to get what he wants or even to send a message, he will do it and make up a reason.

---

No. That's panic talking, and it raises the risk of a bad outcome if you listen.

---

I have a long list of Putins disregard for moral, logical and diplomatic standards from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya.

What do you have to back up your position that Putin will show restraint to get what he wants?

---

What he wants is to expand Russia's power without triggering a devastating response from the West. Everything he's done from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya serves the same purpose. Wantonly starting a nuclear war won't accomplish that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about nuclear war. I'm saying we should. But if it happens, it won't be because Putin or anyone else planned it. It will be because someone underestimated, someone overreacted, or something happened by accident.

Russia builds their own encrypted cellphone out of paranoia, ERA. Equips forces with ERA. Forces knock out cell tower infrastructure. Landline calls get intercepted. Oops.

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

---

If Putin thinks that nukes are needed to get what he wants or even to send a message, he will do it and make up a reason.

---

No. That's panic talking, and it raises the risk of a bad outcome if you listen.

---

I have a long list of Putins disregard for moral, logical and diplomatic standards from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya.

What do you have to back up your position that Putin will show restraint to get what he wants?

---

What he wants is to expand Russia's power without triggering a devastating response from the West. Everything he's done from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya serves the same purpose. Wantonly starting a nuclear war won't accomplish that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about nuclear war. I'm saying we should. But if it happens, it won't be because Putin or anyone else planned it. It will be because someone underestimated, someone overreacted, or something happened by accident.

---

No, he wants to expand without triggering a devastating response as long as the West stands down and let's him. Otherwise, "consequences never seen". So, as long as we give him what he wants, no consequences. If Ukraine or Baltics or Sweden says no - invasion. vacuum bombs, hit squads, indiscriminate bombing and what if thst is not enough? Chechnya? Syria?

You have speculated on what you think, not provide any data points to support it. My "panic thought" analysis has 30 years of data points and 100's of thousand (give or take, I know how this Board is about minutia focus) dead.

So, why shouldn't we be approaching this different if your style of avoiding the main problem, Putin, has not worked for 30 years???

Ukraine has held on for a few weeks now.

The predictable result.............thousands of volunteers from other countries are entering Ukraine to fight .

One estimate ( probably inflated ) put the number at 20,000.


Whatever the number is.......its only going to increase as long as the perception grows that the Ukrainians have a decent chance of holding off the Russian bear.

Hard for us to imagine.......but there are millions of central and east Europeans who know what their grandparents and parents endured under Russian occupation after WW2.

And it when on for decades.

Payback is underway .

Sam: "I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about nuclear war. I'm saying we should. But if it happens, it won't be because Putin or anyone else planned it. It will be because someone underestimated, someone overreacted, or something happened by accident."

I don't often agree with Sam these days, but I agree there to the extent that there are a great many people involved in Russia's nuclear arsenal, and in spite of what you see in movies, there are a great many safeguards to prevent any one person from launching a nuclear strike on his own. And the people within Russia's military who do not trust Putin in charge of the nukes are growing in number and in concern.

quash said:

---

Russia builds their own encrypted cellphone out of paranoia, ERA. Equips forces with ERA. Forces knock out cell tower infrastructure. Landline calls get intercepted. Oops.

---

A lesson for those who complain about rigorous testing of new technology.

Osodecentx said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

You're projecting again.

---

Notice that the argument to refute you is:
LOLOLOLOOLLOLOLLOL

That's all you need to know

---

Actually, for those paying attention, he said this as well: "Sam talking as if he recognizes panic. It's been staring at him in the mirror for 2 years and he still can't identify it."

And he would be right.

You ask, "What do you have to back up your position that Putin will show restraint to get what he wants?" and suggest he will use nukes to get what he wants.

Yet, just a couple of weeks ago, when I suggested that NATO putting troops on the ground could lead to a nuclear war, you threw cold water on that suggestion.

Which is it?

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

---

If Putin thinks that nukes are needed to get what he wants or even to send a message, he will do it and make up a reason.

---

No. That's panic talking, and it raises the risk of a bad outcome if you listen.

---

I have a long list of Putins disregard for moral, logical and diplomatic standards from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya.

What do you have to back up your position that Putin will show restraint to get what he wants?

---

What he wants is to expand Russia's power without triggering a devastating response from the West. Everything he's done from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya serves the same purpose. Wantonly starting a nuclear war won't accomplish that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about nuclear war. I'm saying we should. But if it happens, it won't be because Putin or anyone else planned it. It will be because someone underestimated, someone overreacted, or something happened by accident.

---

No, he wants to expand without triggering a devastating response as long as the West stands down and let's him. Otherwise, "consequences never seen". So, as long as we give him what he wants, no consequences. If Ukraine or Baltics or Sweden says no - invasion. vacuum bombs, hit squads, indiscriminate bombing and what if thst is not enough? Chechnya? Syria?

You have speculated on what you think, not provide any data points to support it. My "panic thought" analysis has 30 years of data points and 100's of thousand (give or take, I know how this Board is about minutia focus) dead.

So, why shouldn't we be approaching this different if your style of avoiding the main problem, Putin, has not worked for 30 years???

---

Putin has been in power closer to 20 years. He has failed many times to get what he wanted, e.g. a closer partnership with Europe, a regional power center with the former Soviet republics, continued exclusive dealings with India, or a peace treaty with Japan. He's done nothing to suggest that he's suicidal or resigned to nuclear war if he doesn't get his way.

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

quash said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

---

If Putin thinks that nukes are needed to get what he wants or even to send a message, he will do it and make up a reason.

---

No. That's panic talking, and it raises the risk of a bad outcome if you listen.

---

I have a long list of Putins disregard for moral, logical and diplomatic standards from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya.

What do you have to back up your position that Putin will show restraint to get what he wants?

---

What he wants is to expand Russia's power without triggering a devastating response from the West. Everything he's done from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya serves the same purpose. Wantonly starting a nuclear war won't accomplish that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about nuclear war. I'm saying we should. But if it happens, it won't be because Putin or anyone else planned it. It will be because someone underestimated, someone overreacted, or something happened by accident.

---

No, he wants to expand without triggering a devastating response as long as the West stands down and let's him. Otherwise, "consequences never seen". So, as long as we give him what he wants, no consequences. If Ukraine or Baltics or Sweden says no - invasion. vacuum bombs, hit squads, indiscriminate bombing and what if thst is not enough? Chechnya? Syria?

You have speculated on what you think, not provide any data points to support it. My "panic thought" analysis has 30 years of data points and 100's of thousand (give or take, I know how this Board is about minutia focus) dead.

So, why shouldn't we be approaching this different if your style of avoiding the main problem, Putin, has not worked for 30 years???

---

Putin has been in power closer to 20 years. He has failed many times to get what he wanted, e.g. a closer partnership with Europe, a regional power center with the former Soviet republics, continued exclusive dealings with India, or a peace treaty with Japan. He's done nothing to suggest that he's suicidal or resigned to nuclear war if he doesn't get his way.

---

So everything he has done doesn't indicate he is willing to escalate to get his way? I think you are being naive.

Also, using your logic we should step in now. After all "He's done nothing to suggest that he's suicidal or resigned to nuclear war if he doesn't get his way." That would support NATO entering and keeping it conventional. If he is not suicidal or going to use nukes, as long as we don't escalate and use conventional forces this will be NATO helping a sovereign nation that has been invaded. A reasonable guy like Putin can understand that and not go nuclear. Why the fear of getting involved?

Based on your logic not getting involved is either Panic Talk or Putin truly is as unstable as I am saying, which is it?

RMF5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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J.R. said:

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Canada2017 said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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quash said:

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whiterock said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Still hoping and praying that some anonymous airstrike will annihilate that 40 mile long Russian convoy that has stalled. Kinda like an old-fashioned turkey shoot. It is being reported that the Russian convoy is running out of fuel and supplies, including food. But what the Hell do we believe in what is being reported these days? This upcoming week should be very telling.

---

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Can't believe our Secretary of State went PUBLIC describing how the United States is offering to replace any jet fighters Poland is would be willing to give to Ukraine .

Why in the hell would he need to reveal such an obviously inflammatory move ?

Most self destructive administration in US history .

---

Me thinks Blinkin is very a very smart and experienced diplomat.

---

A. The United States has no business being part of a deal to send Polish jets with Ukrainian pilots to fight Russian jets.. None . Incredibly inflammatory and stupid move.

B. Providing such jets puts POLAND at extreme risk. Poland and Russia have fought several wars over the centuries . 2 in the last 100 years alone . Like with Ukrainians ....Russians feel entitled to kill Poles. The Biden administration is providing Putin a legitimate reason to attack Poland . Hope the Poles are smart enough NOT to be so reckless.

C. Of course ......very quickly Russian intelligence would have ascertained what was going on. But why telegraph such a move. Beyond ridiculous .

D. I am convinced there are individuals within our government and various corporate mega campaign contributors who are attempting to back the US into a conventional war with Russia . They believe a nuclear war wouldn't break out.....or if it did........it would be winnable or at the least accomplish some bizarre array of secondary objectives. .

---

I agree with you on a lot of things, but this is one we just do not agree.

What risk? Risk Russia will invade sovereign nations, threaten Europe, form an alliance with China and use oil to extort Europe? Guess what, we are there. No amount of appeasement, restraint or subordination to Putin's demands will stop him doing what he wants.

Especially, if he knows all he is to do is threaten and activate a few missile units. He has made nukes, non-issues. You cannot move forward in a world where he can use the nukes to get what he wants. Your logic puts us there. MAD is not working because he does not believe that short of sending a nuke to the US mainland the US will do anything. That is what is causing the current mess and it is going to get worse if we allow Putin to set the terms.

Signed, Jughead probably on ignore...

---

That reasoning suffers from a number of false assumptions - that nothing will deter Putin, that his nuclear capability is a deterrent and NATO's is not, that he wants hegemony over Europe rather than lands in a traditional Russian sphere, that we are powerless to stop that hegemony without inciting nuclear war, etc....

NATO is most definitely a deterrent.
MAD is not dead.
Yes, Putin is a tyrant; No, he is not a madman.
No, one AR round hitting a Russian solider is not going to turn US cities into asphalt parking lots.

Yes, he would like to shatter the NATO alliance, to shake out the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, Sloakia, Romania, Bulgaria. That would give him hegemony over the Slavic world and a shatter zone between Russia and Germany. Such will not happen in our lifetime. The western alliance has been rejuvenated. Germany just this week has announced full financial commitment to NATO, modernization of forces, and strategic reordering of energy policy to punish Russia.

Putin has made a number of miscalculations, and he will have his hands full surviving them. It is not unthinkable that the sanctions could prompt the Boyars to pay a Russian General to take him out. Russian tanks on parade down the Champs d'Elysee and such are quite shrill scenarios. They are a shadow of their former selves and even outright victory in Ukraine will come with sobering realities. How many divisions of loyal troops and commanders can he raise from pacified Ukraine?

This will all take time to play out and there will be sweat on furrowed brows.
The human race survives.
So does the Western Alliance.
If you want more margin of safety, dig more coal.

---

All for your last sentiment: dig, drill and build pipelines until they are a nonissue.


As for the walking on eggshells because it may make Putin go nuclear. Nothing we do will prevent him from doing anything he wants, at least under this Administration.

---

He will go nuclear only if he believes Russia (or his regime) is directly threatened. Emphasis on "believes." It's always possible that someone will miscalculate, and the more escalation the greater the possibility.

---

If Putin thinks that nukes are needed to get what he wants or even to send a message, he will do it and make up a reason.

---

No. That's panic talking, and it raises the risk of a bad outcome if you listen.

---

I have a long list of Putins disregard for moral, logical and diplomatic standards from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya.

What do you have to back up your position that Putin will show restraint to get what he wants?

---

What he wants is to expand Russia's power without triggering a devastating response from the West. Everything he's done from Ukraine to Syria to Chechnya serves the same purpose. Wantonly starting a nuclear war won't accomplish that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about nuclear war. I'm saying we should. But if it happens, it won't be because Putin or anyone else planned it. It will be because someone underestimated, someone overreacted, or something happened by accident.

---

No, he wants to expand without triggering a devastating response as long as the West stands down and let's him. Otherwise, "consequences never seen". So, as long as we give him what he wants, no consequences. If Ukraine or Baltics or Sweden says no - invasion. vacuum bombs, hit squads, indiscriminate bombing and what if thst is not enough? Chechnya? Syria?

You have speculated on what you think, not provide any data points to support it. My "panic thought" analysis has 30 years of data points and 100's of thousand (give or take, I know how this Board is about minutia focus) dead.

So, why shouldn't we be approaching this different if your style of avoiding the main problem, Putin, has not worked for 30 years???

---

Putin has been in power closer to 20 years. He has failed many times to get what he wanted, e.g. a closer partnership with Europe, a regional power center with the former Soviet republics, continued exclusive dealings with India, or a peace treaty with Japan. He's done nothing to suggest that he's suicidal or resigned to nuclear war if he doesn't get his way.

---

So everything he has done doesn't indicate he is willing to escalate to get his way? I think you are being naive.

Also, using your logic we should step in now. After all "He's done nothing to suggest that he's suicidal or resigned to nuclear war if he doesn't get his way." That would support NATO entering and keeping it conventional. If he is not suicidal or going to use nukes, as long as we don't escalate and use conventional forces this will be NATO helping a sovereign nation that has been invaded. A reasonable guy like Putin can understand that and not go nuclear. Why the fear of getting involved?

Based on your logic not getting involved is either Panic Talk or Putin truly is as unstable as I am saying, which is it?

---

I didn't say he wouldn't use nukes under any circumstances. I said he would only use them if he felt directly threatened, which he likely would if we entered Ukraine.

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

I am saying the only thing he understands is force.

---

That's what people and governments usually say when the only thing they want to do is use force.

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

---

Just two weeks ago you said there is no way Putin would use nukes. Now you're saying he will, so let's send in the troops to start WW3 in Ukraine.

Pointing out the inconsistency in your positions is not a lawyer game.

Your nuts.

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

---

Just two weeks ago you said there is no way Putin would use nukes. Now you're saying he will, so let's send in the troops to start WW3 in Ukraine.

Pointing out the inconsistency in your positions is not a lawyer game.

Your nuts.

---

What about his nuts?

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

---

Just two weeks ago you said there is no way Putin would use nukes. Now you're saying he will, so let's send in the troops to start WW3 in Ukraine.

Pointing out the inconsistency in your positions is not a lawyer game.

Your nuts.

---

Not hard to find information supporting my view. But you and Sam know more. And leave my nuts out of your thoughts.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/concern-rising-putin-could-use-nuclear-weapons/362913/

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

---

Pointing out the inconsistency in your positions is not a lawyer game.

Your nuts.

---

Got to give you credit. Far more patient than I am . Put this particular jughead on 'ignore' after reading his first 4 posts.

Meanwhile our country is staggering toward either war with Russia or ( best case ) the worst recession since the end of WW2 .

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

---

Just two weeks ago you said there is no way Putin would use nukes. Now you're saying he will, so let's send in the troops to start WW3 in Ukraine.

Pointing out the inconsistency in your positions is not a lawyer game.

Your nuts.

---

Not hard to find information supporting my view. But you and Sam know more. And leave my nuts out of your thoughts.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/concern-rising-putin-could-use-nuclear-weapons/362913/

---

So in the past two weeks you've come around to what I said two weeks ago. Congrats.

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

---

Just two weeks ago you said there is no way Putin would use nukes. Now you're saying he will, so let's send in the troops to start WW3 in Ukraine.

Pointing out the inconsistency in your positions is not a lawyer game.

Your nuts.

---

Not hard to find information supporting my view. But you and Sam know more. And leave my nuts out of your thoughts.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/concern-rising-putin-could-use-nuclear-weapons/362913/

---

So in the past two weeks you've come around to what I said two weeks ago. Congrats.

---

That what we do will not influence Putin's actions? He will use what he can to get the result he wants? I don't remember you saying anything close!

Actually, your position has been to pretend it is not happening because we do not have a binding agreement to do anything, typical lawyer thinking. That it is not our concern and that Putin has nukes so we need to not do anything to upset him. My memory is that was your position. Real "Leader of the Free World" stuff.

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

---

Just two weeks ago you said there is no way Putin would use nukes. Now you're saying he will, so let's send in the troops to start WW3 in Ukraine.

Pointing out the inconsistency in your positions is not a lawyer game.

Your nuts.

---

Not hard to find information supporting my view. But you and Sam know more. And leave my nuts out of your thoughts.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/concern-rising-putin-could-use-nuclear-weapons/362913/

---

So in the past two weeks you've come around to what I said two weeks ago. Congrats.

---

That what we do will not influence Putin's actions? He will use what he can to get the result he wants? I don't remember you saying anything close!

Actually, your position has been to pretend it is not happening because we do not have a binding agreement to do anything, typical lawyer thinking. That it is not our concern and that Putin has nukes so we need to not do anything to upset him. My memory is that was your position. Real "Leader of the Free World" stuff.

---

Your memory is as bad as your reasoning abilities.

I support many of the things we're doing right now - such as sanctions and arming Ukranians - and said as much when we first began this discussion. What I wouldn't support, much to your chagrin, was troops on the ground, as I believed direct combat between NATO and Russian forces could lead to a nuclear war.

You absurdly alleged, as you do now, that meant I want to let Putin do whatever he wants, and suggested I was silly for thinking he would ever use nuclear weapons - a position on which you've done a complete 180 since 2 weeks ago.

War mongers makes stupid decisions.

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

---

You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

---

So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

---

Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

---

Just two weeks ago you said there is no way Putin would use nukes. Now you're saying he will, so let's send in the troops to start WW3 in Ukraine.

Pointing out the inconsistency in your positions is not a lawyer game.

Your nuts.

---

Not hard to find information supporting my view. But you and Sam know more. And leave my nuts out of your thoughts.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/concern-rising-putin-could-use-nuclear-weapons/362913/

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So in the past two weeks you've come around to what I said two weeks ago. Congrats.

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That what we do will not influence Putin's actions? He will use what he can to get the result he wants? I don't remember you saying anything close!

Actually, your position has been to pretend it is not happening because we do not have a binding agreement to do anything, typical lawyer thinking. That it is not our concern and that Putin has nukes so we need to not do anything to upset him. My memory is that was your position. Real "Leader of the Free World" stuff.

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Your memory is as bad as your reasoning abilities.

I support many of the things we're doing right now - such as sanctions and arming Ukranians - and said as much when we first began this discussion. What I wouldn't support, much to your chagrin, was troops on the ground, as I believed direct combat between NATO and Russian forces could lead to a nuclear war.

You absurdly alleged, as you do now, that meant I want to let Putin do whatever he wants, and suggested I was silly for thinking he would ever use nuclear weapons - a position on which you've done a complete 180 since 2 weeks ago.

War mongers makes stupid decisions.

---

By the way, did you even read the article? Nah, you know more. You never answered my question. Is the situation the same as 2 weeks ago? It is a simple Yes or No. Someone with your reasoning abilities should be able to discern an answer in an hour or so...

You said we should not provide military assistance because Putin has nukes. I am still saying, what we do will not prevent him from using them. He is losing, if he thinks they will get him what he wants he will use them. Regardless of whether we put conventional troops on the ground. He is calling the shots, we are reacting. But someone with your superior intelligence, reasoning abilities has this figured out since nothing has changed in 2 weeks.

There is always something else you can give. Maybe if we embargo Almonds, he will stop. I hear he likes them...

I am done with you.

RMF5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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So, now you're saying Putin is so unstable he would use nukes to get his way?

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You don't see a pattern of escalation to get his way?
Invasion
Assassinations
Chemical Weapons
Mercernaries
Attacking Nuclear Plants
Geez, the list goes on.

So, yes I believe he is vested enough in this move to go nuclear. Mini-cluster nukes, tactical nukes and dirty ordinance (which basically what his attack on Nuclear Plants is). Panic talk is trying to avoid any conflict with him, he will push until he gets conflict.


So, what do you do if he uses mini nukes or tactical nukes? Is that enough to stop him? Or, is the specter of a full exchange keep the status quo? I would bet you will go with status quo, which means give him everything he asks for.

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So just two weeks ago, you said he wouldn't use nukes if we put troops on the ground and now you're saying he will regardless, so let's put troops on the ground?

You're all over the place.

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Things stay static and don't change. A position taken on day 1 of combat is the same as day 21? How do you guys function in the real world? But, the situation today is the same, right?

I am saying the only thing he understands is force. But, you know that. Just playing your little lawyer games again.

---

Just two weeks ago you said there is no way Putin would use nukes. Now you're saying he will, so let's send in the troops to start WW3 in Ukraine.

Pointing out the inconsistency in your positions is not a lawyer game.

Your nuts.

---

Not hard to find information supporting my view. But you and Sam know more. And leave my nuts out of your thoughts.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/concern-rising-putin-could-use-nuclear-weapons/362913/

---

So in the past two weeks you've come around to what I said two weeks ago. Congrats.

---

That what we do will not influence Putin's actions? He will use what he can to get the result he wants? I don't remember you saying anything close!

Actually, your position has been to pretend it is not happening because we do not have a binding agreement to do anything, typical lawyer thinking. That it is not our concern and that Putin has nukes so we need to not do anything to upset him. My memory is that was your position. Real "Leader of the Free World" stuff.

---

Your memory is as bad as your reasoning abilities.

I support many of the things we're doing right now - such as sanctions and arming Ukranians - and said as much when we first began this discussion. What I wouldn't support, much to your chagrin, was troops on the ground, as I believed direct combat between NATO and Russian forces could lead to a nuclear war.

You absurdly alleged, as you do now, that meant I want to let Putin do whatever he wants, and suggested I was silly for thinking he would ever use nuclear weapons - a position on which you've done a complete 180 since 2 weeks ago.

War mongers makes stupid decisions.

---

By the way, did you even read the article? Nah, you know more. You never answered my question. Is the situation the same as 2 weeks ago? It is a simple Yes or No. Someone with your reasoning abilities should be able to discern an answer in an hour or so...

You said we should not provide military assistance because Putin has nukes. I am still saying, what we do will not prevent him from using them. He is losing, if he thinks they will get him what he wants he will use them. Regardless of whether we put conventional troops on the ground. He is calling the shots, we are reacting. But someone with your superior intelligence, reasoning abilities has this figured out since nothing has changed in 2 weeks.

There is always something else you can give. Maybe if we embargo Almonds, he will stop. I hear he likes them...

I am done with you.

---

I read the article. I am not sure it's relevant to our discussion, and it certainly doesn't account for your sudden 180-degree turn on Putin and nukes.

Has Putin changed his character in the last 2 weeks? Of course not. He's the same guy he's been the last 20 years. Have events occurred that have caused him to make the nuke threat? Of course, but anyone who didn't foresee those events isn't too bright. We knew the crippling sanctions would come. We knew that weapons would be supplied.

Now, I will give you that nobody foresaw the war going this badly and embarrassingly for Putin, but if we had committed NATO forces, do you think that Putin would have fared better than he is now? Of course not - and because of that, again, the nuclear option would have been on the table, as I said two weeks ago.

If anything, your article proves what I said was two weeks ago - committing ground forces could easily have begun a nuclear war.

I understand why you're done. You've fared pretty poorly on this thread, and look like a fool. The complete 180 on nukes is Exhibit A to your foolishness. Even more foolish is the idea that he's going that direction anyway, so we might as well assure a nuclear war by committing ground forces. Idiotic is what I would call that.