Losin' my religion

27,820 Views | 572 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by Sam Lowry
J.B.Katz
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What does it mean to be pro-life?

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/Why-I-just-quit-the-Catholic-Church-17198443.php?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=headlines&utm_campaign=sfc_opinioncentral&sid=61f3697f162d2f074755999f

With the archbishop of San Francisco's announcement Friday that he was unilaterally banning House Speaker Nancy Pelosi from receiving the sacrament of Holy Communion, I made a decision that had been building for a long time.

I no longer consider myself a member of the Catholic Church.

Those are painful words for me to write. I spent much of my youth as an altar boy who was deeply influenced by the priests and nuns I encountered. I seriously contemplated becoming a priest at one point, was married in the church, saw my children baptized and looked on in pride when they received their first Holy Communion. I have attended more Masses and listened to more inspiring homilies over the past 40-plus years than I can begin to count.

But if you're Catholic, you know how deeply important the sacrament of Holy Communion is to all of us who consider ourselves sinners. It represents the climax of the Catholic Mass as the consecrated body and blood of Christ. To deny a Catholic this sacrament is to deny them the right to unite with Christ.

The idea that a leader of the church would weaponize something so precious is not only wrong; it's abhorrent. It betrays the teachings of Pope Francis and the principles the church has operated under for more than a half century in respecting our rights to follow our conscience on issues of morality. One of the defining statements that came out of the Catholic Church's revolutionary Second Vatican Council from 1962 to 1965 was the declaration of religious freedom and decree that "no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs."

While Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone routinely takes to Twitter to denounce Pelosi and her fellow Catholic, President Biden, over their abortion stances, he rarely targets politicians over other grave moral issues. I did not see a word from him in the aftermath of the Buffalo massacre about the political factors that have enabled a plague of racism, hate and gun violence in our society. I also never see him call for political action to address the plague of inadequate health care and safety net services that results in our country having some of the highest rates of maternal and infant mortality in the advanced world.

He apparently had no idea about this nation's shameful record on maternal mortality until I called it to his attention on Maternal Health Awareness Day. His brief acknowledgment on Twitter came without any call for action to address it by the same legislators he wants to see ban the right to abortion.

Many of us hoped that leaders like Cordileone would have had the humility to focus on their own institution's moral failings in the aftermath of the child sex abuse crisis. But in his role as bishop in both San Francisco and previously in Oakland, Cordileone has routinely come under fire for his lack of transparency and accountability in addressing this horrific church failure that devastated the lives of untold children across the Bay Area. Just last month, he joined other California bishops in challenging a California law that gives victims of childhood sex abuse additional time to sue.

I am tired of the hypocrisy of bishops who denounce pro-choice politicians for failing to legally protect fertilized embryos while saying nothing about those Catholic politicians such as Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., who flout church doctrine regarding the death penalty, are backed by the extremist National Rifle Association and do nothing to protect Black grocery shoppers from being slaughtered by guns, or the shooting of schoolchildren, as happened yet again in Texas on Tuesday.

While some individual priests have shamefully withheld Holy Communion from pro-choice politicians for many years, Cordileone crossed a red line by issuing a blanket ban against Pelosi receiving the sacrament in her home diocese, after making similar threats against Biden.

It's time to say enough is enough to church leaders who attempt to bully Catholic public officials who refuse to do their theological bidding and refuse to place church doctrine ahead of the views of the constituents they are elected to represent.

I do not agree with Pelosi or her party on every issue, but she is devout Catholic mother of five who spearheaded one of the greatest expansions of health care rights (the Affordable Care Act) in U.S. history, a law that has saved countless lives and pregnancies. If she is not worthy of Holy Communion, I have no interest in continuing to receive it from this church.

My belief in Christ's message of love and tolerance is as strong as ever. But I am a Catholic no more.
BearN
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Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?
Harrison Bergeron
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Okay. You want a pat on the back or something? It speaks volumes about your actual religion, which I suspect has not been Catholicism for quite some time.
ShooterTX
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J.B.Katz said:



I no longer consider myself a member of the Catholic Church.


I'm pretty sure the feeling is mutual.

No place for baby killers in a church... just doesn't make sense.
ShooterTX
STxBear81
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Shouldn't the ban on communion toward Pelosi make her inwardly remorseful if it really meant something to her. Shouldn't the inner being have some remorse toward self on why the ban occurred? Or is a politician above this? Maybe it is deserved
Proud 1992 Alum
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Not Catholic, but kudos for the archbishop for actually following Church doctrine. It's Nancy that needs to change, not the church.
Canada2017
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Proud to be Catholic .

Jesus taught repeatedly about the importance of LIFE.



Want to promote the killing of babies.......your choice.

But you are not Catholic .
BearN
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Canada2017 said:

Proud to be Catholic .

Jesus taught repeatedly about the importance of LIFE.



Want to promote the killing of babies.......your choice.

But you are not Catholic .


This is 2022. If someone says they want to kill babies and still identify as a Catholic, who are we to say otherwise? I suppose you think a Catholic man that identifies as a Catholic woman can't give birth to a little Catholic baby either.
Jack and DP
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Is Abortion your new religion?
william
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any other Roastifarians* on here?

PA.

- UL

... and, as always, TIA.

BID.

{ eating large fudge walnut brownie }

* FYI - we gather at the ATM most days - 'round 1PM. Let the lunch crowd disperse.


Dale?
J.R.
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"That's me in the spotlight"
Wrecks Quan Dough
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Queen Nancy to Archbishop: How dare you force my religion on me!
OsoCoreyell
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The consumerist attitude towards God and religion generally permeates everything about that article.
atomicblast
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Lol as soon as I read San Fransisco, I knew this was going to be an article from the left
FLBear5630
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J.B.Katz said:

What does it mean to be pro-life?

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/Why-I-just-quit-the-Catholic-Church-17198443.php?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=headlines&utm_campaign=sfc_opinioncentral&sid=61f3697f162d2f074755999f

With the archbishop of San Francisco's announcement Friday that he was unilaterally banning House Speaker Nancy Pelosi from receiving the sacrament of Holy Communion, I made a decision that had been building for a long time.

I no longer consider myself a member of the Catholic Church.

Those are painful words for me to write. I spent much of my youth as an altar boy who was deeply influenced by the priests and nuns I encountered. I seriously contemplated becoming a priest at one point, was married in the church, saw my children baptized and looked on in pride when they received their first Holy Communion. I have attended more Masses and listened to more inspiring homilies over the past 40-plus years than I can begin to count.

But if you're Catholic, you know how deeply important the sacrament of Holy Communion is to all of us who consider ourselves sinners. It represents the climax of the Catholic Mass as the consecrated body and blood of Christ. To deny a Catholic this sacrament is to deny them the right to unite with Christ.

The idea that a leader of the church would weaponize something so precious is not only wrong; it's abhorrent. It betrays the teachings of Pope Francis and the principles the church has operated under for more than a half century in respecting our rights to follow our conscience on issues of morality. One of the defining statements that came out of the Catholic Church's revolutionary Second Vatican Council from 1962 to 1965 was the declaration of religious freedom and decree that "no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs."

While Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone routinely takes to Twitter to denounce Pelosi and her fellow Catholic, President Biden, over their abortion stances, he rarely targets politicians over other grave moral issues. I did not see a word from him in the aftermath of the Buffalo massacre about the political factors that have enabled a plague of racism, hate and gun violence in our society. I also never see him call for political action to address the plague of inadequate health care and safety net services that results in our country having some of the highest rates of maternal and infant mortality in the advanced world.

He apparently had no idea about this nation's shameful record on maternal mortality until I called it to his attention on Maternal Health Awareness Day. His brief acknowledgment on Twitter came without any call for action to address it by the same legislators he wants to see ban the right to abortion.

Many of us hoped that leaders like Cordileone would have had the humility to focus on their own institution's moral failings in the aftermath of the child sex abuse crisis. But in his role as bishop in both San Francisco and previously in Oakland, Cordileone has routinely come under fire for his lack of transparency and accountability in addressing this horrific church failure that devastated the lives of untold children across the Bay Area. Just last month, he joined other California bishops in challenging a California law that gives victims of childhood sex abuse additional time to sue.

I am tired of the hypocrisy of bishops who denounce pro-choice politicians for failing to legally protect fertilized embryos while saying nothing about those Catholic politicians such as Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., who flout church doctrine regarding the death penalty, are backed by the extremist National Rifle Association and do nothing to protect Black grocery shoppers from being slaughtered by guns, or the shooting of schoolchildren, as happened yet again in Texas on Tuesday.

While some individual priests have shamefully withheld Holy Communion from pro-choice politicians for many years, Cordileone crossed a red line by issuing a blanket ban against Pelosi receiving the sacrament in her home diocese, after making similar threats against Biden.

It's time to say enough is enough to church leaders who attempt to bully Catholic public officials who refuse to do their theological bidding and refuse to place church doctrine ahead of the views of the constituents they are elected to represent.

I do not agree with Pelosi or her party on every issue, but she is devout Catholic mother of five who spearheaded one of the greatest expansions of health care rights (the Affordable Care Act) in U.S. history, a law that has saved countless lives and pregnancies. If she is not worthy of Holy Communion, I have no interest in continuing to receive it from this church.

My belief in Christ's message of love and tolerance is as strong as ever. But I am a Catholic no more.

She cannot come out as pro-abortion and be consistent with the Church's doctrine. The Arch-Bishop is within he rights to do that.

As for the others, I am not sure the Arch-Bishop of San Francisco has authority over Rubio in Florida. If Rubio presents himself for communion in SF, than the Arch-Bishop should be consistent. I am not sure he would even know unless the politician comes out and tries to use their religious standing to justify a law contrary to the Church's positions.


As for the rest, you sound like my daughter. You mixed a lot of different issues, we discuss a lot of issues like this! The Arch-Bishop is within his purview and is correct in his interpretation. People, including the Pope, may disagree but he is not wrong. The rest of your list sounds like opinion and a cherry picked list of grievances that really are separate from the issue of Pelosi. You don't like him, noted.

Keep in mind the current Pope is about as liberal as there has ever been and he did not overrule his position on Pelosi. I know he does not like the Arch-Bishop and he did not make him a Cardinal, but did not intervene. If he did, I missed it. Did the Pope step in?


Porteroso
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BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
FLBear5630
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Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
Sam Lowry
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The OP is mistaken in many ways. Rubio is not flouting Church doctrine regarding the death penalty.
Canada2017
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RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
No Catholic is supposed to receive communion if they are guilty of any sin. To do so is to take on still another sin .

And mortal sins can only by removed by the sacrament of confession .

So like one poster said......being Catholic is voluntary....and (certainly humbling) .



Of course there are dozens of 'pick and choose' faiths available.
Maybe Pelosi should join Waco47's pseudo congregation instead.
BearN
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Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.


It's not my high horse, it's what is in the Bible. My response is 100% biblically based. Capital punishment is in the Old Testament and the New. Romans 13. You are the one that ignores scripture.

And you have leapt to an illogical conclusion. Nobody is keeping these people from God except themselves. You can't come to God on your own terms. You come on His terms. Repent and be saved. Repent. Confess. Believe. Be Saved. Don't repent? Don't believe in Christ as Savior? Then you can't be saved.

You are also making a common mistake mixing forgiveness from sin in a spiritual sense for the eternal salvation, and forgiveness from sins on this earth. The murderer can repent and be saved and be forgiven their sins and become a child of God as much as any of us, but the earthly authorities appointed by God owe a duty to God to punish murderers on this earth.

BusyTarpDuster2017
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RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
Weren't you on another thread, saying the resurrection of Jesus seems more of a parable or hyperbole than actual historic fact? How does that jibe with Catholic church dogma, and hence, with your standing with regard to communion?
Mitch Blood Green
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J.R. said:

"That's me in the spotlight"
Trying to keep up with you but I don't know if I can do it.
FLBear5630
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
Weren't you on another thread, saying the resurrection of Jesus seems more of a parable or hyperbole than actual historic fact? How does that jibe with Catholic church dogma, and hence, with your standing with regard to communion?
No, what I said was that IF it turned out that it was a parable it would not change my belief or how I live my life. I don't need miracles to "cement" my belief system. That is different than saying I don't believe it happened.

This came out of a conversation with a Moslem friend of mine that I used to share an office. We used to discuss religion. This was in the 90's, I was less than 5 years back from Desert Storm, so I had some conversations over there as well.

He said he liked how logical Islam was and that it did not rely on supernatural leaps of faith. He also put to me the question if the requirement of "miracles" is a sign of strong or weak faith? He believed weak faith, if you need some type of supernatural occurrence to convince you it is God. I said the point was moot, it would not impact my believe, where I worship or how I live my life.

That set some people off, that I was not a Christian. But, based on past conversations ranging from the QB choice at BU to Ukraine to Religion, I could say the sky is blue and they would say I was an idiot...
FLBear5630
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Canada2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
No Catholic is supposed to receive communion if they are guilty of any sin. To do so is to take on still another sin .

And mortal sins can only by removed by the sacrament of confession .

So like one poster said......being Catholic is voluntary....and (certainly humbling) .



Of course there are dozens of 'pick and choose' faiths available.
Maybe Pelosi should join Waco47's pseudo congregation instead.
I do find the concept of venial sins and the eucharist to be very interesting. But, to many a sin is a sin is a sin.
Booray
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To my knowledge, Nancy Pelosi has never had or performed an abortion. She does not appoint or confirm judges who may have created/recognized the Constitutional right to abortion. She has passed no law legalizing abortion.

The Archbishop's position is consistent with the history of the Catholic Church-it punishes people for disagreeing with it.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
Weren't you on another thread, saying the resurrection of Jesus seems more of a parable or hyperbole than actual historic fact? How does that jibe with Catholic church dogma, and hence, with your standing with regard to communion?
No, what I said was that IF it turned out that it was a parable it would not change my belief or how I live my life. I don't need miracles to "cement" my belief system. That is different than saying I don't believe it happened.

This came out of a conversation with a Moslem friend of mine that I used to share an office. We used to discuss religion. This was in the 90's, I was less than 5 years back from Desert Storm, so I had some conversations over there as well.

He said he liked how logical Islam was and that it did not rely on supernatural leaps of faith. He also put to me the question if the requirement of "miracles" is a sign of strong or weak faith? He believed weak faith, if you need some type of supernatural occurrence to convince you it is God. I said the point was moot, it would not impact my believe, where I worship or how I live my life.

That set some people off, that I was not a Christian. But, based on past conversations ranging from the QB choice at BU to Ukraine to Religion, I could say the sky is blue and they would say I was an idiot...
Well, no, you said exactly that: "Some facts are documrntable[sic], there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole, such as walking on water, calming the storm, fisher of man, even resurrection". Was this in error?

Also, it would be correct to say that if your beliefs don't require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then your beliefs are definitely not Christian.
FLBear5630
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
Weren't you on another thread, saying the resurrection of Jesus seems more of a parable or hyperbole than actual historic fact? How does that jibe with Catholic church dogma, and hence, with your standing with regard to communion?
No, what I said was that IF it turned out that it was a parable it would not change my belief or how I live my life. I don't need miracles to "cement" my belief system. That is different than saying I don't believe it happened.

This came out of a conversation with a Moslem friend of mine that I used to share an office. We used to discuss religion. This was in the 90's, I was less than 5 years back from Desert Storm, so I had some conversations over there as well.

He said he liked how logical Islam was and that it did not rely on supernatural leaps of faith. He also put to me the question if the requirement of "miracles" is a sign of strong or weak faith? He believed weak faith, if you need some type of supernatural occurrence to convince you it is God. I said the point was moot, it would not impact my believe, where I worship or how I live my life.

That set some people off, that I was not a Christian. But, based on past conversations ranging from the QB choice at BU to Ukraine to Religion, I could say the sky is blue and they would say I was an idiot...
Well, no, you said exactly that: "Some facts are documrntable[sic], there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole, such as walking on water, calming the storm, fisher of man, even resurrection". Was this in error?

Also, it would be correct to say that if your beliefs don't require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then your beliefs are definitely not Christian.
Believe what you will. I don't give a ***** Whether you think I am Christian or not is irrelevant. Direct enough?
BusyTarpDuster2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
Weren't you on another thread, saying the resurrection of Jesus seems more of a parable or hyperbole than actual historic fact? How does that jibe with Catholic church dogma, and hence, with your standing with regard to communion?
No, what I said was that IF it turned out that it was a parable it would not change my belief or how I live my life. I don't need miracles to "cement" my belief system. That is different than saying I don't believe it happened.

This came out of a conversation with a Moslem friend of mine that I used to share an office. We used to discuss religion. This was in the 90's, I was less than 5 years back from Desert Storm, so I had some conversations over there as well.

He said he liked how logical Islam was and that it did not rely on supernatural leaps of faith. He also put to me the question if the requirement of "miracles" is a sign of strong or weak faith? He believed weak faith, if you need some type of supernatural occurrence to convince you it is God. I said the point was moot, it would not impact my believe, where I worship or how I live my life.

That set some people off, that I was not a Christian. But, based on past conversations ranging from the QB choice at BU to Ukraine to Religion, I could say the sky is blue and they would say I was an idiot...
Well, no, you said exactly that: "Some facts are documrntable[sic], there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole, such as walking on water, calming the storm, fisher of man, even resurrection". Was this in error?

Also, it would be correct to say that if your beliefs don't require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then your beliefs are definitely not Christian.
Believe what you will. I don't give a ***** Whether you think I am Christian or not is irrelevant. Direct enough?
It has nothing to do with what I believe. If it is true that your beliefs do not require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then it is definitional/logically correct to say your beliefs aren't Christian. Cursing doesn't change that fact.

I'm not asking you to give a **** about what I believe. You should give a **** about what is truth, though.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
Weren't you on another thread, saying the resurrection of Jesus seems more of a parable or hyperbole than actual historic fact? How does that jibe with Catholic church dogma, and hence, with your standing with regard to communion?
No, what I said was that IF it turned out that it was a parable it would not change my belief or how I live my life. I don't need miracles to "cement" my belief system. That is different than saying I don't believe it happened.

This came out of a conversation with a Moslem friend of mine that I used to share an office. We used to discuss religion. This was in the 90's, I was less than 5 years back from Desert Storm, so I had some conversations over there as well.

He said he liked how logical Islam was and that it did not rely on supernatural leaps of faith. He also put to me the question if the requirement of "miracles" is a sign of strong or weak faith? He believed weak faith, if you need some type of supernatural occurrence to convince you it is God. I said the point was moot, it would not impact my believe, where I worship or how I live my life.

That set some people off, that I was not a Christian. But, based on past conversations ranging from the QB choice at BU to Ukraine to Religion, I could say the sky is blue and they would say I was an idiot...
Well, no, you said exactly that: "Some facts are documrntable[sic], there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole, such as walking on water, calming the storm, fisher of man, even resurrection". Was this in error?

Also, it would be correct to say that if your beliefs don't require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then your beliefs are definitely not Christian.
Believe what you will. I don't give a ***** Whether you think I am Christian or not is irrelevant. Direct enough?
It has nothing to do with what I believe. If it is true that your beliefs do not require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then it is definitional/logically correct to say your beliefs aren't Christian. Cursing doesn't change that fact.

I'm not asking you to give a **** about what I believe. You should give a **** about what is truth, though.
You took one line of an 8 page discussion on the Bible and a question a Moslem asked me 25 years ago and turned it into a faith statement. If you would read the other 10 or so posts you would see the context of the discussion was does the Bible HAVE to be literal. Obviously, you believe so. I do not, as it does not impact the way I live my life. I am done with this.
BusyTarpDuster2017
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
Weren't you on another thread, saying the resurrection of Jesus seems more of a parable or hyperbole than actual historic fact? How does that jibe with Catholic church dogma, and hence, with your standing with regard to communion?
No, what I said was that IF it turned out that it was a parable it would not change my belief or how I live my life. I don't need miracles to "cement" my belief system. That is different than saying I don't believe it happened.

This came out of a conversation with a Moslem friend of mine that I used to share an office. We used to discuss religion. This was in the 90's, I was less than 5 years back from Desert Storm, so I had some conversations over there as well.

He said he liked how logical Islam was and that it did not rely on supernatural leaps of faith. He also put to me the question if the requirement of "miracles" is a sign of strong or weak faith? He believed weak faith, if you need some type of supernatural occurrence to convince you it is God. I said the point was moot, it would not impact my believe, where I worship or how I live my life.

That set some people off, that I was not a Christian. But, based on past conversations ranging from the QB choice at BU to Ukraine to Religion, I could say the sky is blue and they would say I was an idiot...
Well, no, you said exactly that: "Some facts are documrntable[sic], there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole, such as walking on water, calming the storm, fisher of man, even resurrection". Was this in error?

Also, it would be correct to say that if your beliefs don't require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then your beliefs are definitely not Christian.
Believe what you will. I don't give a ***** Whether you think I am Christian or not is irrelevant. Direct enough?
It has nothing to do with what I believe. If it is true that your beliefs do not require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then it is definitional/logically correct to say your beliefs aren't Christian. Cursing doesn't change that fact.

I'm not asking you to give a **** about what I believe. You should give a **** about what is truth, though.
You took one line of an 8 page discussion on the Bible and a question a Moslem asked me 25 years ago and turned it into a faith statement. If you would read the other 10 or so posts you would see the context of the discussion was does the Bible HAVE to be literal. Obviously, you believe so. I do not, as it does not impact the way I live my life. I am done with this.
Okay, let's be clear. Do you believe that our salvation is only possible through the actual, literal death and resurrection of Jesus?
Porteroso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BearN said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.


It's not my high horse, it's what is in the Bible. My response is 100% biblically based. Capital punishment is in the Old Testament and the New. Romans 13. You are the one that ignores scripture.

And you have leapt to an illogical conclusion. Nobody is keeping these people from God except themselves. You can't come to God on your own terms. You come on His terms. Repent and be saved. Repent. Confess. Believe. Be Saved. Don't repent? Don't believe in Christ as Savior? Then you can't be saved.

You are also making a common mistake mixing forgiveness from sin in a spiritual sense for the eternal salvation, and forgiveness from sins on this earth. The murderer can repent and be saved and be forgiven their sins and become a child of God as much as any of us, but the earthly authorities appointed by God owe a duty to God to punish murderers on this earth.



You're still skirting the issue in an attempt to be right. You also made a ton of assumptions about my post. Please just read what it says, not what you want it to say.

This is a Catholic denying a person communion with God. You or I can disagree on whether you need a priest to commune with God or not, but that's irrelevant.

If you will do as I suggest and open up that dusty Bible you may or may not have, you will find that regardless of the sin, God seeks communion with us. Far before we reciprocate, He is already waiting. No human needs to try to stop that. You will not find anything to support that, but please try, it will do you some good.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

RMF5630 said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.
I thought being a Catholic was voluntary. If she does not believe what is being taught, go where you do belief. Why does the Church have to change to accommodate hers and your view? The whole Protestant movement is based on that. The Episcopal Church is much more open to that line of thinking and is Sacramental. Have at it.

Personally, I agree with Pope Francis that Communion is to bring us closer to God and is a healing act. But, that is not the position of the Church. Even the Pope cannot change basic Catholic dogma, her position on Abortion is not possible and staying in good standing.
Weren't you on another thread, saying the resurrection of Jesus seems more of a parable or hyperbole than actual historic fact? How does that jibe with Catholic church dogma, and hence, with your standing with regard to communion?
No, what I said was that IF it turned out that it was a parable it would not change my belief or how I live my life. I don't need miracles to "cement" my belief system. That is different than saying I don't believe it happened.

This came out of a conversation with a Moslem friend of mine that I used to share an office. We used to discuss religion. This was in the 90's, I was less than 5 years back from Desert Storm, so I had some conversations over there as well.

He said he liked how logical Islam was and that it did not rely on supernatural leaps of faith. He also put to me the question if the requirement of "miracles" is a sign of strong or weak faith? He believed weak faith, if you need some type of supernatural occurrence to convince you it is God. I said the point was moot, it would not impact my believe, where I worship or how I live my life.

That set some people off, that I was not a Christian. But, based on past conversations ranging from the QB choice at BU to Ukraine to Religion, I could say the sky is blue and they would say I was an idiot...
Well, no, you said exactly that: "Some facts are documrntable[sic], there was a Census. Pilate existed. Etc... But some also seem to be parables or hyperbole, such as walking on water, calming the storm, fisher of man, even resurrection". Was this in error?

Also, it would be correct to say that if your beliefs don't require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then your beliefs are definitely not Christian.
Believe what you will. I don't give a ***** Whether you think I am Christian or not is irrelevant. Direct enough?
It has nothing to do with what I believe. If it is true that your beliefs do not require the resurrection of Jesus to actually have happened, then it is definitional/logically correct to say your beliefs aren't Christian. Cursing doesn't change that fact.

I'm not asking you to give a **** about what I believe. You should give a **** about what is truth, though.
You took one line of an 8 page discussion on the Bible and a question a Moslem asked me 25 years ago and turned it into a faith statement. If you would read the other 10 or so posts you would see the context of the discussion was does the Bible HAVE to be literal. Obviously, you believe so. I do not, as it does not impact the way I live my life. I am done with this.
Okay, let's be clear. Do you believe that our salvation is only possible through the actual, literal death and resurrection of Jesus?
The resurrection offers that sinful humans can be reconciled to God and thereby are offered salvation. Catholics, including me, believe in the resurrection of Jesus. None of that was what the conversation was about. The conversation was a "what if" and how it impacts you. But, you seem stuck on three words out of 8 pages. What it matters to you, I have no idea. We are not going to agree if this conversation is going where I expect.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.


It's not my high horse, it's what is in the Bible. My response is 100% biblically based. Capital punishment is in the Old Testament and the New. Romans 13. You are the one that ignores scripture.

And you have leapt to an illogical conclusion. Nobody is keeping these people from God except themselves. You can't come to God on your own terms. You come on His terms. Repent and be saved. Repent. Confess. Believe. Be Saved. Don't repent? Don't believe in Christ as Savior? Then you can't be saved.

You are also making a common mistake mixing forgiveness from sin in a spiritual sense for the eternal salvation, and forgiveness from sins on this earth. The murderer can repent and be saved and be forgiven their sins and become a child of God as much as any of us, but the earthly authorities appointed by God owe a duty to God to punish murderers on this earth.



You're still skirting the issue in an attempt to be right. You also made a ton of assumptions about my post. Please just read what it says, not what you want it to say.

This is a Catholic denying a person communion with God. You or I can disagree on whether you need a priest to commune with God or not, but that's irrelevant.

If you will do as I suggest and open up that dusty Bible you may or may not have, you will find that regardless of the sin, God seeks communion with us. Far before we reciprocate, He is already waiting. No human needs to try to stop that. You will not find anything to support that, but please try, it will do you some good.
The purpose is to bring her back to communion with God, not to stand in the way of it.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.


It's not my high horse, it's what is in the Bible. My response is 100% biblically based. Capital punishment is in the Old Testament and the New. Romans 13. You are the one that ignores scripture.

And you have leapt to an illogical conclusion. Nobody is keeping these people from God except themselves. You can't come to God on your own terms. You come on His terms. Repent and be saved. Repent. Confess. Believe. Be Saved. Don't repent? Don't believe in Christ as Savior? Then you can't be saved.

You are also making a common mistake mixing forgiveness from sin in a spiritual sense for the eternal salvation, and forgiveness from sins on this earth. The murderer can repent and be saved and be forgiven their sins and become a child of God as much as any of us, but the earthly authorities appointed by God owe a duty to God to punish murderers on this earth.



You're still skirting the issue in an attempt to be right. You also made a ton of assumptions about my post. Please just read what it says, not what you want it to say.

This is a Catholic denying a person communion with God. You or I can disagree on whether you need a priest to commune with God or not, but that's irrelevant.

If you will do as I suggest and open up that dusty Bible you may or may not have, you will find that regardless of the sin, God seeks communion with us. Far before we reciprocate, He is already waiting. No human needs to try to stop that. You will not find anything to support that, but please try, it will do you some good.
The purpose is to bring her back to communion with God, not to stand in the way of it.
According to the Catechism, it could be whether they consider it a Venial or Mortal Sin. If Mortal, no communion. If Venial, communion heals. Up for a academic exercise that will piss off many...

For example. Abortion is a mortal sin, period. No discussion.
But, with Pelosi we are not talking her have committed an Abortion. We are talking policy and creating law allowing it.
Free Choice still exists and anyone that uses that law and commits an Abortion commits a Mortal Sin.
So, the question is allowing or creating the law, is that a Mortal Sin, Venial Sin or no sin?

Arch Bishop - Mortal, hence the ban on Communion
Pope - Venial, hence is comments.

Since she is in SF, the ArchBishop would have jurisdiction. Pope did not step in.

All of this is man-made administrative stuff, but nobody really knows until much later.

Every aspect of this should piss off someone... Even though it is a rational execise.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RMF5630 said:

Sam Lowry said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Porteroso said:

BearN said:

Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

You guys are all saddling up to play high horses, but please. Read the Bible if you think God ever thought there were just some people so bad, they should be denied the opportunity to meet with God.

Before you giddy-up next time, use that good ole Baylor education addled brain of yours.


It's not my high horse, it's what is in the Bible. My response is 100% biblically based. Capital punishment is in the Old Testament and the New. Romans 13. You are the one that ignores scripture.

And you have leapt to an illogical conclusion. Nobody is keeping these people from God except themselves. You can't come to God on your own terms. You come on His terms. Repent and be saved. Repent. Confess. Believe. Be Saved. Don't repent? Don't believe in Christ as Savior? Then you can't be saved.

You are also making a common mistake mixing forgiveness from sin in a spiritual sense for the eternal salvation, and forgiveness from sins on this earth. The murderer can repent and be saved and be forgiven their sins and become a child of God as much as any of us, but the earthly authorities appointed by God owe a duty to God to punish murderers on this earth.



You're still skirting the issue in an attempt to be right. You also made a ton of assumptions about my post. Please just read what it says, not what you want it to say.

This is a Catholic denying a person communion with God. You or I can disagree on whether you need a priest to commune with God or not, but that's irrelevant.

If you will do as I suggest and open up that dusty Bible you may or may not have, you will find that regardless of the sin, God seeks communion with us. Far before we reciprocate, He is already waiting. No human needs to try to stop that. You will not find anything to support that, but please try, it will do you some good.
The purpose is to bring her back to communion with God, not to stand in the way of it.
According to the Catechism, it could be whether they consider it a Venial or Mortal Sin. If Mortal, no communion. If Venial, communion heals. Up for a academic exercise that will piss off many...

For example. Abortion is a mortal sin, period. No discussion.
But, with Pelosi we are not talking her have committed an Abortion. We are talking policy and creating law allowing it.
Free Choice still exists and anyone that uses that law and commits an Abortion commits a Mortal Sin.
So, the question is allowing or creating the law, is that a Mortal Sin, Venial Sin or no sin?

Arch Bishop - Mortal, hence the ban on Communion
Pope - Venial, hence is comments.

Since she is in SF, the ArchBishop would have jurisdiction. Pope did not step in.

All of this is man-made administrative stuff, but nobody really knows until much later.

Every aspect of this should piss off someone... Even though it is a rational execise.
What were the pope's comments?
 
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