There are several automatic Organ responses that I do not control

Waco1947 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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Coke Bear, a faction of the SBC is preaching hate right now:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/06/13/southern-baptists-john-macarthur/

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What "hate" are you referring to?

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1.The LGBTQ community, Sure, non denom loves gay but believe they are going to hell and will not enter the kingdom of their God.
2. women who abort babies, "Baby killers" is their epitaph for them that's hardly loving and certainly not true
3. African Americans, Look at southern churches who are ever so slow to integrate accept an African American preacher, or fight against the the systemic racism, still segregate their schools through private schools and underfund the public education, resist the Covid19 vaccine that kills Blacks at a higher rate than whites.
4. . women in general by abusing and raping them in their churches and turning a blind eye to it, keep them out of pulpits and leadership in local churches, force them to term of any, any pregnancy
5. People who disagree with them theologically and berate them and call them false prophets and teachers
That's my list for now.

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Thanks for your opinions, but I asked the OP how hate was being preached specifically in the article she linked.

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A rather broad and judgmental word --"How can you negotiate with people who hate Christ, hate God, hate the Bible and hate the Gospel?" John MacArthur

He simply made up these people. It's a straw man argument.

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Here's where he said that, in context:

"You don't advance the kingdom of God by lining up with the kingdom of Satan," John MacArthur, a dean of conservative evangelical preaching, told the audience, referring to issues including the role of women and addressing racism. "You will never advance the kingdom of God by being popular with the world. If you think you will, you're doing the Devil's work. How can you negotiate with people who hate Christ, hate God, hate the Bible and hate the Gospel?"

He's referring to the "world" that is hostile to Jesus and his Gospel. Satan is the "god of this world". What he said is true, and it is fully supported biblically. So how is that "hate"? You must think citing biblical truths is hate. What kind of minister are you? Rather, I should ask, what side are you ministering for?

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I go into the world of sinners like Jesus did.

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You are one incredibly ignorant piece of work .

So exactly which theology school did you graduate from old fella ?

Oh that's right…..other than admitting it wasn't Baylor ……you can't even bring yourself to own up to the truth.

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You have attempted to doxx me before. I went to a Methodist Theological Seminary.

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Have never attempted to 'doxx' anyone......anywhere.

Just curious to see if you are finally going admit the facts.

Where did you GRADUATE from 'minister' ?

Or are you so ashamed of your sham that you are afraid to spell it out ...even in your old age ?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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RMF5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Jesus validated the truth of the Hebrew God, the God of the bible. The Bible is clear that the creator of the universe is a personal being and that the creation of the universe and of us was an act of intent, purpose, and design.

Do you believe Jesus was sent by God, as Jesus claimed?

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You know, if I had the answers I would not be discussing the questions. Believe me, you are not who I would be coming to for guidance.

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Its not my purpose to make you feel comfortable or to gain your favor. Its to tell you truth. Your insults do nothing to change the truth.

So your answer to my question, "do you believe Jesus was sent by God, as Jesus claimed?" is "no", correct?

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Insults? I don't need you to tell me your version of the truth or to tell me mine is wrong. Stay in your lane...

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Its the the truth of your purported religion, catholicism.

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chuckle


Gotta luv the internet .

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Oh really? What have I said is untrue in catholicism?

Note: a non-answer will only prove my point.

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It is not for you to say if a discussion is or not allowed to occur or to determine what is right or wrong. You are what gives Christians a bad name around the world!!!

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How do I give Christians a bad name?

Yes, I certainly can say that if a person doesn't or can't back up what they say, that there is no truth to it.

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By interjecting your believes, interpretations and positions on others and then continually hounding them to prove to yourself you are right. Direct enough, for you?

Now that I think about it. You are all about dogma. You don't discuss, you won't entertain ideas outside of your dogmatic believes and you go after people who disagree. You have become the Pharisees.

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You have still yet to show anything that I've said that is not biblical truth - what your purported religion, Catholicism, believes. Point it out.

And note, both you and Canada have yet to answer my questions. Others are noticing your avoidance. And it is quite revealing.

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The only thing revealing is your hounding of people! I have said numerous times I don't know all the answers and that is why I like discussing. You on the other hand seem to know everything and are not shy in letting everyone know.

I do not know what God is and anyone that says they do is lying. Operable word "KNOW", not believe, have faith, Bible tells us, Tony Robbins says.. KNOW. You seem to be stuck on playing Christian Trivial Pursuit. You have destroyed several very interesting threads to prove you know more. Congrats...

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So, you like discussing, but when I discuss, it's "hounding"?

Obviously, you like discussing only when you're not challenged.

I did not ask what you KNOW, I asked what you BELIEVE. As in, you know, faith?

This isn't "trivia" we are discussing. It's essential, central, and foundational beliefs of Christianity. It's quite revealing that you referred to it as such.

And I'm still waiting for your answer - do you believe Jesus was sent by the God of the Bible, as Jesus himself claims? You seemed to answer "no". Is this correct?

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Why the hell do you care so much what RMF or anyone else believes? The guy told you multiple times he's still working through certain things and trying to figure that out at present. The same is true of many of us. And the type of Christian legalism expressed in your posts -- and many others here -- is a massive turnoff for many of us. If you're trying to turn people away from Christ and the church, continue doing what you're doing. But understand that your tactics are playing a major role in the deterioration of the church's influence.

Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Only to the terminally woke.

Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Where did RMF misrepresent anything? Where did he claim to be espousing doctrine at all? As best I can tell, all he did was express some doubts he has and some issues with orthodox theology he was having trouble reconciling, and he was met with harassment. Zealotry doesn't win hearts or minds, particularly when those hearts and minds are interested in having a two-way conversation and not being preached at.

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

The belief in the death and resurrection of Christ is a central belief required to actually be Christian, according to the Christian Bible. Any discussion that pushes the idea that it's NOT core to Christianity is a perversion of Christianity itself. You're asking people to be flexible on the one thing that being flexible on would relegate them to being agnostic, and you can't figure out why you're not getting any compromise in conversation here?
Edit; I like that you edited to add an insult towards evangelicals

Wangchung said:

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The belief in the death and resurrection of Christ is a central belief required to actually be Christian, according to the Christian Bible. Any discussion that pushes the idea that it's NOT core to Christianity is a perversion of Christianity itself. You're asking people to be flexible on the one thing that being flexible on would relegate them to being agnostic, and you can't figure out why you're not getting any compromise in conversation here?
Edit; I like that you edited to add an insult towards evangelicals

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No, I'm asking people to leave people alone. If someone is speaking for themselves , and not the church, their beliefs are none of your concern. If they tell you to stop harassing them, stop harassing them.

bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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The belief in the death and resurrection of Christ is a central belief required to actually be Christian, according to the Christian Bible. Any discussion that pushes the idea that it's NOT core to Christianity is a perversion of Christianity itself. You're asking people to be flexible on the one thing that being flexible on would relegate them to being agnostic, and you can't figure out why you're not getting any compromise in conversation here?
Edit; I like that you edited to add an insult towards evangelicals

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No, I'm asking people to leave people alone. If someone is speaking for themselves , and not the church, their beliefs are none of your concern. If they tell you to stop harassing them, stop harassing them.

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Agreed. No one should be following others around harassing them and dragging topics into other threads, if that's what's going on. But being clear on Christianity to people with interest on the topic shouldn't be seen as controversial, certainly not on a Baylor site.

Wangchung said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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The belief in the death and resurrection of Christ is a central belief required to actually be Christian, according to the Christian Bible. Any discussion that pushes the idea that it's NOT core to Christianity is a perversion of Christianity itself. You're asking people to be flexible on the one thing that being flexible on would relegate them to being agnostic, and you can't figure out why you're not getting any compromise in conversation here?
Edit; I like that you edited to add an insult towards evangelicals

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No, I'm asking people to leave people alone. If someone is speaking for themselves , and not the church, their beliefs are none of your concern. If they tell you to stop harassing them, stop harassing them.

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Agreed. No one should be following others around harassing them and dragging topics into other threads, if that's what's going on. But being clear on Christianity to people with interest on the topic shouldn't be seen as controversial, certainly not on a Baylor site.

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I don't disagree with that. There have been a lot of really good doctrinal discussions on this board lately. But if you look at the exchange I referenced, you'll see this was not that.

bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Where did RMF misrepresent anything? Where did he claim to be espousing doctrine at all? As best I can tell, all he did was express some doubts he has and some issues with orthodox theology he was having trouble reconciling, and he was met with harassment. Zealotry doesn't win hearts or minds, particularly when those hearts and minds are interested in having a two-way conversation and not being preached at.

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

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So true

bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Where did RMF misrepresent anything? Where did he claim to be espousing doctrine at all? As best I can tell, all he did was express some doubts he has and some issues with orthodox theology he was having trouble reconciling, and he was met with harassment. Zealotry doesn't win hearts or minds, particularly when those hearts and minds are interested in having a two-way conversation and not being preached at.

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

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Oh, the fruit exists: It's a smug sense of superiority: I got my Jesus,and if you don't (or if your Jesus isn't enough like mine), well then, **** you.

It's not the kind of fruit you serve up on a daily basis if you want to change the world in a positive way or attract people who weren't born into it to your faith.

Quote:

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Why the hell do you care so much what RMF or anyone else believes?

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Why wouldn't I care? If I believe the gospel is truly a matter of eternal life or death, as ALL Christians should, then shouldn't I care about someone else's critical error in their beliefs in this regard? If you're talking politics with someone, and they believe something that is false, wouldn't you care? I would too. So if we care about wordly matters like politics that are only temporary, then shouldn't we be even more concerned about eternal matters?

Quote:

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And the type of Christian legalism expressed in your posts -- and many others here -- is a massive turnoff for many of us.

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Could you point out precisely what I said that is, in your view, "legalism", instead of basic, essential doctrine? And if doing that is a turn off for you and others, then it is not I who is turning you off, but rather it's the truth of Jesus. The world doesn't want hard truth. It wants a softened, watered down, more palatable, *******ized version of the truth. One that is malleable enough to conform to their way of life and thinking. One that doesn't offend or challenge, but rather, allows all to live in peace and harmony. But Jesus is very clear about this. He said he did NOT come to bring peace, but rather, a sword to divide believers from non-believers (Matt 10:34). If you've read the book of Revelation where Jesus sends messages to the seven churches, you'd see that clearly Jesus does NOT like for us to water down the truth.

bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Where did RMF misrepresent anything? Where did he claim to be espousing doctrine at all? As best I can tell, all he did was express some doubts he has and some issues with orthodox theology he was having trouble reconciling, and he was met with harassment. Zealotry doesn't win hearts or minds, particularly when those hearts and minds are interested in having a two-way conversation and not being preached at.

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

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RMF in a way misrepresented Christianity to his friends from other religions, when one of them, a Muslim, asked if his beliefs would change if there were no miracles. His answer was no - neither his beliefs nor his worship would change. I merely pointed out how Christianity is actually founded on miracles, namely the miracle of the resurrection. Without it, our faith is hopeless and futile. This is a core tenet in Christianity. His thinking had a critical error in it. He was misrespresenting Christianity also to himself.

So why is explaining that to him "harassment"? This is a gross mischaracterization. I get that he's still feeling his way out on his beliefs, and I don't disagree that we're all doing that to some extent. But if someone else is in critical error with regard to a core tenet, am I not free, even obligated, to point out the critical truth that they are missing? If someone is defensive, constantly deflecting instead of staying on point, and not answering questions to further the dialogue and understanding, do I then persist by keeping them focused on the point? Yes, I do. If you call that "harassment", and say that it causes people to turn away from Christianity - well, like I said before, if that's the case, then it's the truth that's harassing you and turning you away from Christianity, not me.

bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

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Is it the fruit of Christians to leave someone alone and allow them to continue in error? Or is it to point it out to them?

J.B.Katz said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Where did RMF misrepresent anything? Where did he claim to be espousing doctrine at all? As best I can tell, all he did was express some doubts he has and some issues with orthodox theology he was having trouble reconciling, and he was met with harassment. Zealotry doesn't win hearts or minds, particularly when those hearts and minds are interested in having a two-way conversation and not being preached at.

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

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Oh, the fruit exists: It's a smug sense of superiority: I got my Jesus,and if you don't (or if your Jesus isn't enough like mine), well then, **** you.

It's not the kind of fruit you serve up on a daily basis if you want to change the world in a positive way or attract people who weren't born into it to your faith.

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This is a blatant and gross mischaracterization of the discussion, and it reflects your distorted sense of truth.

How does someone who doesn't believe in God, know His fruit?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

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Is it the fruit of Christians to leave someone alone and allow them to continue in error? Or is it to point it out to them?

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The fruit of Christians should be love. And until you prove that love exists, which requires some sort of relationship and rapport, all you're doing by pointing out error in strangers (based entirely on your faith and belief system that they likely don't share) is condescending to them and very likely turning them off to Jesus.

Correct yourself and your friends. Leave strangers alone. And if you want to proselytize to strangers, build a relationship based on mutual respect and love first.

Waco1947 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Where did RMF misrepresent anything? Where did he claim to be espousing doctrine at all? As best I can tell, all he did was express some doubts he has and some issues with orthodox theology he was having trouble reconciling, and he was met with harassment. Zealotry doesn't win hearts or minds, particularly when those hearts and minds are interested in having a two-way conversation and not being preached at.

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

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So true

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Thank you, Waco47. Both you and JBKatz. It's perhaps the best argument for me, better than anything I could have said myself.

bear2be2 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

---

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

---

Is it the fruit of Christians to leave someone alone and allow them to continue in error? Or is it to point it out to them?

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The fruit of Christians should be love. And until you prove that love exists, which requires some sort of relationship and rapport, all you're doing by pointing out error in strangers (based entirely on your faith and belief system that they likely don't share) is condescending to them and very likely turning them off to Jesus.

Correct yourself and your friends. Leave strangers alone. And if you want to proselytize to strangers, build a relationship based on mutual respect and love first.

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What is love- to leave people, even strangers alone who are on a path to destruction, or to warn them?

Again, pointing out the central truth of Christianity is not pushing MY version of beliefs, it is affirming the indisputable, essential, and foundational tenet of Christianity. And if that turns you and others off, if you view that as "condescending", then it is the truth that is condescending to you, not I.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

---

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

---

Is it the fruit of Christians to leave someone alone and allow them to continue in error? Or is it to point it out to them?

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The fruit of Christians should be love. And until you prove that love exists, which requires some sort of relationship and rapport, all you're doing by pointing out error in strangers (based entirely on your faith and belief system that they likely don't share) is condescending to them and very likely turning them off to Jesus.

Correct yourself and your friends. Leave strangers alone. And if you want to proselytize to strangers, build a relationship based on mutual respect and love first.

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What is love- to leave people, even strangers alone who are on a path to destruction, or to warn them?

Again, pointing out the central truth of Christianity is not pushing MY version of beliefs, it is affirming the indisputable, essential, and foundational tenet of Christianity. And if that turns you and others off, if you view that as "condescending", then it is the truth that is condescending to you, not I.

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No, it's definitely you. If your truth is worth a damn and if God is as powerful and personal as you say he is, he can do whatever he needs to in the hearts of the people you're "warning." But right now, you just look to others like a bad painter telling someone how to paint or a bad cook telling someone how to cook. Why would/should anyone take what you have to say about sin and salvation seriously? Work on your own sin and warn your friends. Leave strangers alone.

bear2be2 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

---

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

---

Is it the fruit of Christians to leave someone alone and allow them to continue in error? Or is it to point it out to them?

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The fruit of Christians should be love. And until you prove that love exists, which requires some sort of relationship and rapport, all you're doing by pointing out error in strangers (based entirely on your faith and belief system that they likely don't share) is condescending to them and very likely turning them off to Jesus.

Correct yourself and your friends. Leave strangers alone. And if you want to proselytize to strangers, build a relationship based on mutual respect and love first.

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Do you follow your own advice when you are talking with others in these forums?

bear2be2 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

---

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

---

Is it the fruit of Christians to leave someone alone and allow them to continue in error? Or is it to point it out to them?

---

The fruit of Christians should be love. And until you prove that love exists, which requires some sort of relationship and rapport, all you're doing by pointing out error in strangers (based entirely on your faith and belief system that they likely don't share) is condescending to them and very likely turning them off to Jesus.

Correct yourself and your friends. Leave strangers alone. And if you want to proselytize to strangers, build a relationship based on mutual respect and love first.

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What is love- to leave people, even strangers alone who are on a path to destruction, or to warn them?

Again, pointing out the central truth of Christianity is not pushing MY version of beliefs, it is affirming the indisputable, essential, and foundational tenet of Christianity. And if that turns you and others off, if you view that as "condescending", then it is the truth that is condescending to you, not I.

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No, it's definitely you. If your truth is worth a damn and if God is as powerful and personal as you say he is, he can do whatever he needs to in the hearts of the people you're "warning." But right now, you just look to others like a bad painter telling someone how to paint or a bad cook telling someone how to cook. Why would/should anyone take what you have to say about sin and salvation seriously? Work on your own sin and warn your friends. Leave strangers alone.

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So if some is in critical error or is missing a critical truth, or has a flawed perspective with regard to anything - even in political or sports discussions, not just regarding Christianity - just shut up and leave them alone?

Do you leave strangers alone in these forums? It doesn't appear that way.

Aren't you doing to me exactly what you're telling me not to do to others?

Bear2be2, stop HARASSING me!!

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

---

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

---

Is it the fruit of Christians to leave someone alone and allow them to continue in error? Or is it to point it out to them?

---

The fruit of Christians should be love. And until you prove that love exists, which requires some sort of relationship and rapport, all you're doing by pointing out error in strangers (based entirely on your faith and belief system that they likely don't share) is condescending to them and very likely turning them off to Jesus.

Correct yourself and your friends. Leave strangers alone. And if you want to proselytize to strangers, build a relationship based on mutual respect and love first.

---

What is love- to leave people, even strangers alone who are on a path to destruction, or to warn them?

Again, pointing out the central truth of Christianity is not pushing MY version of beliefs, it is affirming the indisputable, essential, and foundational tenet of Christianity. And if that turns you and others off, if you view that as "condescending", then it is the truth that is condescending to you, not I.

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No, it's definitely you. If your truth is worth a damn and if God is as powerful and personal as you say he is, he can do whatever he needs to in the hearts of the people you're "warning." But right now, you just look to others like a bad painter telling someone how to paint or a bad cook telling someone how to cook. Why would/should anyone take what you have to say about sin and salvation seriously? Work on your own sin and warn your friends. Leave strangers alone.

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So if some is in critical error or is missing a critical truth, or has a flawed perspective with regard to anything - even in political or sports discussions, not just regarding Christianity - just shut up and leave them alone?

Do you leave strangers alone in these forums? It doesn't appear that way.

Aren't you doing to me exactly what you're telling me not to do to others?

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I don't think so because I'm not trying to change what you believe or insist that you believe as I do. I don't care what you or anyone else here believes/doesn't believe. It's not my job to. I hope everyone here finds the peace they're looking for, but the hubris to think that everyone in a plural society must believe as you do is just that.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Bear2be2, stop HARASSING me!!

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Fair enough. We'll leave the discussion there. See, that wasn't hard.

bear2be2 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Bear2be2, stop HARASSING me!!

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Fair enough. We'll leave the discussion there. See, that wasn't hard.

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Yeah, I'd duck out of here too after I was just exposed as a hypocrite.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

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Is it the fruit of Christians to leave someone alone and allow them to continue in error? Or is it to point it out to them?

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What makes you think you know anything about living the Christian life and feel qualified in any way to offer guidance about walking the walk and correcting actions you have judged as "errors"?

Based on your posts on this forum, I can assure you that you would be one of the last people (along with Mothra and BaylorFTW (was he the guy who posted about living with his mother until marriage to prevent himself from masturbating, or was that some other dude on this forum who thinks he's channeling Christ while spewing hate and discord? } that I would ever recommend anyone consult about living a Christlike life. Since I don't look to anyone on this forum as an example of Christ-like behavior. I come here to find out what the right-wing talking points currently in vogue are, and this forum never disaappoints.

J.B.Katz said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

---

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

---

Is it the fruit of Christians to leave someone alone and allow them to continue in error? Or is it to point it out to them?

---

What makes you think you know anything about living the Christian life and feel qualified in any way to offer guidance about walking the walk and correcting actions you have judged as "errors"?

Based on your posts on this forum, I can assure you that you would be one of the last people (along with Mothra and BaylorFTW (was he the guy who posted about living with his mother until marriage to prevent himself from masturbating, or was that some other dude on this forum who thinks he's channeling Christ while spewing hate and discord? } that I would ever recommend anyone consult about living a Christlike life. Since I don't look to anyone on this forum as an example of Christ-like behavior. I come here to find out what the right-wing talking points currently in vogue are, and this forum never disaappoints.

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What makes you, someone who doesn't even believe in God, think you know about whether someone knows about living the Christian life?

I swear, the arrogance of non-believers into what makes up a believer is absolutely astounding. It's like saying you don't believe in unicorns, but you argue that you know what size horseshoe they wear.

Based on YOUR posts in this forum, I consider your opposition to me a badge of honor and truth.

J.B.Katz said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

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Where did RMF misrepresent anything? Where did he claim to be espousing doctrine at all? As best I can tell, all he did was express some doubts he has and some issues with orthodox theology he was having trouble reconciling, and he was met with harassment. Zealotry doesn't win hearts or minds, particularly when those hearts and minds are interested in having a two-way conversation and not being preached at.

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

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Oh, the fruit exists: It's a smug sense of superiority: I got my Jesus,and if you don't (or if your Jesus isn't enough like mine), well then, **** you.

It's not the kind of fruit you serve up on a daily basis if you want to change the world in a positive way or attract people who weren't born into it to your faith.

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so true

BearN said:

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Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

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You are making this up. He said no such thing.

But do you save innocent lives both as a matter of public policy and the church after they leave the womb?

J.B.Katz said:

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Coke Bear said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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First, I don't consider my church a waste of time. I have never considered church a waste of time. Anyone who is attending a church that's a waste of time should find another church. pronto.

I am frequently humbled by the sermons our pastor preaches. I go to church to learn and serve.

Second, your question implies that the only reason someone would want to do good in this lifetime is to earn a reward in the afterlife. I'm very uncomfortable with that motiviation for following whatever religious rules you believe are essential.

I am also very uncomfortable with telling people they need to be saved to avoid going to hell. If avoiding hell is all people want as the desired outcome and the main reason why they "accept Jesus," then their faith is self-serving and fear-motivated. I think love and service are healthier motivations.

You don't need to believe in God to want to serve others.

Or to cherish a strong belief that all of us are lucky to be here, and that we should strive to leave the campsite better than we found it so our children and grandchildren have better prospects for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Or at least as good as ours.

...

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I'm sorry that you've lost your belief in God.

My questions, while maybe too specific, were meant in more of an existential manner ...

What is Good? Why do good if there is no God? Why not lead a utilitarian life maximizing pleasure?

These are more rhetoric questions for you.

Just to clarify from my earlier post, I'm not saying that one should believe in God to avoid hell. Not that it's wrong to do so. That is a form of imperfect contrition. Nor do I believe that one should believe to get things - God is not a divine, cosmic sugar-daddy. But I digress ...

I'm also sorry that you've had family issues that have contributed to this lack of belief.

I will not be trolled into your child/women abuse narrative again, but I will say that evil and sin exist in this fallen world. Similarly, we live in a world that is disordered with many afflictions like cancer, physical deformities, diseases, mental and psychological issues.

I do know that God would let these exist if He wouldn't allow a them for a greater good.

Lastly, you stated that you enjoy good sermons. Maybe you could contemplate on what Christ meant by picking up one's cross and carrying it daily. Jesus never promised us a rose garden on earth.

I wish you well in your journey and hope that you are able to come to believe in God again.

PS. Just because bad Christians exist, it doesn't mean that God doesn't.

PPS. Finally, I would humbly suggest contemplating on what/who God is.

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P.S. I would not say I "lost" my belief in God.

I'd describe that as a slow fade.

What I "lost" was the belief that religion was a force for good. I now fear religion engenders a dangerous and harmful hubris. That's because of Christian / religious / Republican / conservative refusal to (1) accept the reality of climate change (which, unlike God, is not something you "believe" in or don't--it's happening, in real time, right now, visibly, (2) be honest about what's contributing to it and who it will impact, (3) be honest about how little we know about how climate on our planet really works and how our activities impact that rather than flatly refusing to look at any science exploring those impacts except the distinct minority of cranks that said we need do nothing or that there was nothing we could do, and (4) support working across party lines to make meaningful changes that will mean fewer deaths of starvation, heat, thirst and climate refugees who won't be welcome anywhere else once their land is arid or flooded.

We are about to find out how much damage people can do in 200 years and how many millenia it will take for the planet to correct that damage and whether the human race will survive the damage we've wrought by holding humanity as superior to all other life on the planet to the point of causing mass extinctions of animals, insects and plants that all worked together to make the planet habitable. For people who supposedly view God's creation with great awe, Christians sure have shown a total lack of respect for or interest in the systems they believe God set up to sustain that creation.

I'm also bothered this refusal was in part based either on a belief that the end times would come so the earth didn't matter or that God is in control of this hot mess we've created.

We are out of control. As a planet. As a nation. And Christians are pushing us further out of control rather than being a force for good or moderation or caring for life beyond Aemrican fetuses (most of the rest of the world isn't going to outlaw abortion--that's an American phenomenon) to a habitable planet for future generations. Hence, my original question. People who won't acknowledge climate change are not pro-life. They're pro-lie.

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Your party castrates children. Your party enslaved millions. Your party has killed over 61 million people.

How does that make you feel?

Waco1947 said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Wangchung said:

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Explaining the core tenets of Christianity to people misrepresenting those tenets is running people away from Christianity?

---

Where did RMF misrepresent anything? Where did he claim to be espousing doctrine at all? As best I can tell, all he did was express some doubts he has and some issues with orthodox theology he was having trouble reconciling, and he was met with harassment. Zealotry doesn't win hearts or minds, particularly when those hearts and minds are interested in having a two-way conversation and not being preached at.

Reflexively reciting Christian doctrine to someone who is having trouble believing part or all of Christian doctrine is a terribly ineffective/unconvincing strategy. You'd be much better off just exhibiting Christ's love and showing that person the fruit of your worldview.

Unfortunately, that's a concept largely lost on evangelicals, and I'm coming to the sad realization that, in many cases, it's likely because said fruit doesn't exist.

---

Oh, the fruit exists: It's a smug sense of superiority: I got my Jesus,and if you don't (or if your Jesus isn't enough like mine), well then, **** you.

It's not the kind of fruit you serve up on a daily basis if you want to change the world in a positive way or attract people who weren't born into it to your faith.

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so true

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What's it like to support a party that removes children's testicles? That has championed the death of 61 million people? That defends ***s dressing as *****s to read to children? Let's Go Brandon!

Waco1947 said:

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BearN said:

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Pro-Life is about being for saving the lives of innocent children.

It is also about believing there are some crimes so heinous, and some murderers that have no regard for earthly laws, courts, and human decency, that the convicted deserves to be remanded to a higher court than what exists on this earth. There is only one way to do that. Send them on to meet their maker.

There is zero inconsistency in believing that abortion is murder while also believing that the most heinous murderers should pay the ultimate price.

Why do you hold life in such low regard that you think otherwise?

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But do you save innocent lives both as a matter of public policy and the church after they leave the womb?

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Hypocrite .