Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

---

Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

whiterock said:

---

False dilemma. The GOP platform IS what's best for the country. Compromise occurs not because some watered down version is better than the original. Rather, compromise is how you get pieces of the platform enacted. Your view is typical moderate vanity, that the virtue lies in the compromise itself, that there is something unseemly about the principles because they get in the way of the compromise.

---

Compromise is not a virtue per se. The problem with Trumpists is not that you stick to your principles. It's that your principles don't include respect for the democratic process.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

---

Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

---

And yet, the damage that was done following Nixon's resignation was terrible and Reagan was tasked with trying to repair those problems for much of his presidency. He was also encumbered by a Democrat congress that stifled his agenda. The idea that Reagan would never have won had Nixon not been impeached is pure speculation at best.

Contrary to your assertions, I believe the methods, institutions, and democratic norms do matter, which is why I will not be voting for Trump in the primaries. The difference between us - besides me actually being conservative - is that I realize conservative policies are always better for the country than liberal policies. If the last 2 years haven't taught you that, I suspect nothing will.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

False dilemma. The GOP platform IS what's best for the country. Compromise occurs not because some watered down version is better than the original. Rather, compromise is how you get pieces of the platform enacted. Your view is typical moderate vanity, that the virtue lies in the compromise itself, that there is something unseemly about the principles because they get in the way of the compromise.

---

Compromise is not a virtue per se. The problem with Trumpists is not that you stick to your principles. It's that your principles don't include respect for the democratic process.

---

100k + people in washington for jan 6, less than 1000 arrested. So 1% of Trumpists dont "respect the democratic process" yet you paint with a broad brush.. good job counselor

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

---

Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

---

And yet, the damage that was done following Nixon's resignation was terrible and Reagan was tasked with trying to repair those problems for much of his presidency. He was also encumbered by a Democrat congress that stifled his agenda. The idea that Reagan would never have won had Nixon not been impeached is pure speculation at best.

Contrary to your assertions, I believe the methods, institutions, and democratic norms do matter, which is why I will not be voting for Trump in the primaries. The difference between us - besides me actually being conservative - is that I realize conservative policies are always better for the country than liberal policies. If the last 2 years haven't taught you that, I suspect nothing will.

---

Almost everyone here realizes that conservative policies are better. The question is whether anything else matters at all. Healthy institutions don't guarantee ideal results. Broken institutions will always bring grief eventually.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

---

Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

---

And yet, the damage that was done following Nixon's resignation was terrible and Reagan was tasked with trying to repair those problems for much of his presidency. He was also encumbered by a Democrat congress that stifled his agenda. The idea that Reagan would never have won had Nixon not been impeached is pure speculation at best.

Contrary to your assertions, I believe the methods, institutions, and democratic norms do matter, which is why I will not be voting for Trump in the primaries. The difference between us - besides me actually being conservative - is that I realize conservative policies are always better for the country than liberal policies. If the last 2 years haven't taught you that, I suspect nothing will.

---

Almost everyone here realizes that conservative policies are better. The question is whether anything else matters at all. Healthy institutions don't guarantee ideal results. Broken institutions will always bring grief eventually.

---

I guess where we differ is a vote for Trump means the institutions are broken or will break. Let's be honest - the institutions haven't been healthy for some time. We saw that with hanging chads and election challenges in 2000. We saw that with ballot harvesting in 2020.

One way to further ensure their destruction is to vote Democrat.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

---

Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

---

And yet, the damage that was done following Nixon's resignation was terrible and Reagan was tasked with trying to repair those problems for much of his presidency. He was also encumbered by a Democrat congress that stifled his agenda. The idea that Reagan would never have won had Nixon not been impeached is pure speculation at best.

Contrary to your assertions, I believe the methods, institutions, and democratic norms do matter, which is why I will not be voting for Trump in the primaries. The difference between us - besides me actually being conservative - is that I realize conservative policies are always better for the country than liberal policies. If the last 2 years haven't taught you that, I suspect nothing will.

---

Almost everyone here realizes that conservative policies are better. The question is whether anything else matters at all. Healthy institutions don't guarantee ideal results. Broken institutions will always bring grief eventually.

---

I guess where we differ is a vote for Trump means the institutions are broken or will break. Let's be honest - the institutions haven't been healthy for some time. We saw that with hanging chads and election challenges in 2000. We saw that with ballot harvesting in 2020.

One way to further ensure their destruction is to vote Democrat.

---

He is testing them in new ways. In 2000 at least everyone agreed that a constitutional crisis was something to be avoided. Trump seems to see it as more of a feature than a bug.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

---

Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

---

And yet, the damage that was done following Nixon's resignation was terrible and Reagan was tasked with trying to repair those problems for much of his presidency. He was also encumbered by a Democrat congress that stifled his agenda. The idea that Reagan would never have won had Nixon not been impeached is pure speculation at best.

Contrary to your assertions, I believe the methods, institutions, and democratic norms do matter, which is why I will not be voting for Trump in the primaries. The difference between us - besides me actually being conservative - is that I realize conservative policies are always better for the country than liberal policies. If the last 2 years haven't taught you that, I suspect nothing will.

---

Almost everyone here realizes that conservative policies are better. The question is whether anything else matters at all. Healthy institutions don't guarantee ideal results. Broken institutions will always bring grief eventually.

---

I guess where we differ is a vote for Trump means the institutions are broken or will break. Let's be honest - the institutions haven't been healthy for some time. We saw that with hanging chads and election challenges in 2000. We saw that with ballot harvesting in 2020.

One way to further ensure their destruction is to vote Democrat.

---

He is testing them in new ways. In 2000 at least everyone agreed that a constitutional crisis was something to be avoided. Trump seems to see it as more of a feature than a bug.

---

Trump's a clown. It would be best not to give his feeble attempts to overturn the election any more credit than they deserve.

Who will you be voting for in the primaries if the suspected candidates run? Who will you be voting for in the general?

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

---

Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

---

And yet, the damage that was done following Nixon's resignation was terrible and Reagan was tasked with trying to repair those problems for much of his presidency. He was also encumbered by a Democrat congress that stifled his agenda. The idea that Reagan would never have won had Nixon not been impeached is pure speculation at best.

Contrary to your assertions, I believe the methods, institutions, and democratic norms do matter, which is why I will not be voting for Trump in the primaries. The difference between us - besides me actually being conservative - is that I realize conservative policies are always better for the country than liberal policies. If the last 2 years haven't taught you that, I suspect nothing will.

---

Almost everyone here realizes that conservative policies are better. The question is whether anything else matters at all. Healthy institutions don't guarantee ideal results. Broken institutions will always bring grief eventually.

---

I guess where we differ is a vote for Trump means the institutions are broken or will break. Let's be honest - the institutions haven't been healthy for some time. We saw that with hanging chads and election challenges in 2000. We saw that with ballot harvesting in 2020.

One way to further ensure their destruction is to vote Democrat.

---

He is testing them in new ways. In 2000 at least everyone agreed that a constitutional crisis was something to be avoided. Trump seems to see it as more of a feature than a bug.

---

Trump's a clown. It would be best not to give his feeble attempts to overturn the election any more credit than they deserve.

Who will you be voting for in the primaries if the suspected candidates run? Who will you be voting for in the general?

---

Unless another front-runner emerges quickly, I'll vote for DeSantis in the primary. I don't like him all that much, but I think it's important to unite around a non-Trump candidate as soon as possible. If DeSantis is in the general I'll vote for him. If Trump is in the general I'll vote for a third party candidate or no one.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

---

Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

---

And yet, the damage that was done following Nixon's resignation was terrible and Reagan was tasked with trying to repair those problems for much of his presidency. He was also encumbered by a Democrat congress that stifled his agenda. The idea that Reagan would never have won had Nixon not been impeached is pure speculation at best.

Contrary to your assertions, I believe the methods, institutions, and democratic norms do matter, which is why I will not be voting for Trump in the primaries. The difference between us - besides me actually being conservative - is that I realize conservative policies are always better for the country than liberal policies. If the last 2 years haven't taught you that, I suspect nothing will.

---

Almost everyone here realizes that conservative policies are better. The question is whether anything else matters at all. Healthy institutions don't guarantee ideal results. Broken institutions will always bring grief eventually.

---

I guess where we differ is a vote for Trump means the institutions are broken or will break. Let's be honest - the institutions haven't been healthy for some time. We saw that with hanging chads and election challenges in 2000. We saw that with ballot harvesting in 2020.

One way to further ensure their destruction is to vote Democrat.

---

He is testing them in new ways. In 2000 at least everyone agreed that a constitutional crisis was something to be avoided. Trump seems to see it as more of a feature than a bug.

---

Trump's a clown. It would be best not to give his feeble attempts to overturn the election any more credit than they deserve.

Who will you be voting for in the primaries if the suspected candidates run? Who will you be voting for in the general?

---

Unless another front-runner emerges quickly, I'll vote for DeSantis in the primary. I don't like him all that much, but I think it's important to unite around a non-Trump candidate as soon as possible. If DeSantis is in the general I'll vote for him. If Trump is in the general I'll vote for a third party candidate or no one.

---

Thanks. Who would you prefer to DeSantis?

Mothra said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

---

Now Independents are turncoats? I don't see my duty as voting for candidates just because they are Republicans. Your party is going through a rough patch now and it is your own fault. You've recognized the malign actions of Trump, yet you will vote for him again in the 2024 general election. I hope to be able to vote for a good Republican presidential candidate in November, 2024. I'll be voting in your primary.

I supported the Cheney reelection bid in Wyoming and am proud of her actions in AZ, where non-Trump candidates did just fine. If you want to blame me for Lake's loss (like white rock) I'm proud to plead guilty.

Never Trump

---

As I've said for years, conservatives who vote (or don't vote) in a way that get candidates elected who propagate the current policies that are ruining our country are indeed short-sighted turncoats. That's the least insulting way to describe them. Like their counterparts on the opposite end of the spectrum - the Always Trumpers - they are extremists who lack the pragmatism and reasonableness to understand that some conservative policies are better than none at all. Yet like the self-aggrandizing buffoon and war mongering neocon, Cheney, they'd rather burn the house down and ruin the country for conservatives forever than try to find a way to co-exist with their MAGA counterparts. The irony is they possess many of the exact same attributes as the Always Trumpers that they loathe - rigid, dogmatic, stubborn, unreasonable, etc. And unfortunately, the reasonable and pragmatic conservatives are stuck in the middle between these two buffoons. Unlike Dems, who despite having many divergent views, are able to come together for the good of the country - the Never and Always Trumpers seem to lack this ability.

What the Never Trumpers like Cheney don't seem to be able to grasp is the neocon republican party they know and love is not coming back. The republicans have now taken on a populist bent that i don't see going away. And if they can't find a way to compromise with MAGA, Republicans are likely dead as a party.

---

You have been consistent.

---

If you're are truly a conservative (I have serious doubts), I hope at some point it sinks in, and you will stop voting for candidates who work to get Democrats elected.

---

"No true Scotsman" fallacy. You are voting your conscience, so am I.

Mothra said:

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Your supported someone who pledged to defeat Republican candidates, and put in shoeleather to get it done, specifically on-site in AZ. Fine. The irony is that after neverTrumpers work to defeat Republicans, they then attempt to blame Trump rather than themselves. Very disingenuous. Several (not all) of the mid-term disappointments are on the neverTrumpers.

Boy, is this the truth. The NT's lack self-awareness more than any group of people I've ever met.

---

Or we vote our consciences and conservative principles.

Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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Your supported someone who pledged to defeat Republican candidates, and put in shoeleather to get it done, specifically on-site in AZ. Fine. The irony is that after neverTrumpers work to defeat Republicans, they then attempt to blame Trump rather than themselves. Very disingenuous. Several (not all) of the mid-term disappointments are on the neverTrumpers.

Boy, is this the truth. The NT's lack self-awareness more than any group of people I've ever met.

---

Or we vote our consciences and conservative principles.

---

Here's the thing - when you support a candidate who helps get democrats elected, you're not really voting for your purported conservative principles. Don't deceive yourself into believing that's what you voted for.

Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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AZ losses solely on election deniers

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You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

---

Now Independents are turncoats? I don't see my duty as voting for candidates just because they are Republicans. Your party is going through a rough patch now and it is your own fault. You've recognized the malign actions of Trump, yet you will vote for him again in the 2024 general election. I hope to be able to vote for a good Republican presidential candidate in November, 2024. I'll be voting in your primary.

I supported the Cheney reelection bid in Wyoming and am proud of her actions in AZ, where non-Trump candidates did just fine. If you want to blame me for Lake's loss (like white rock) I'm proud to plead guilty.

Never Trump

---

As I've said for years, conservatives who vote (or don't vote) in a way that get candidates elected who propagate the current policies that are ruining our country are indeed short-sighted turncoats. That's the least insulting way to describe them. Like their counterparts on the opposite end of the spectrum - the Always Trumpers - they are extremists who lack the pragmatism and reasonableness to understand that some conservative policies are better than none at all. Yet like the self-aggrandizing buffoon and war mongering neocon, Cheney, they'd rather burn the house down and ruin the country for conservatives forever than try to find a way to co-exist with their MAGA counterparts. The irony is they possess many of the exact same attributes as the Always Trumpers that they loathe - rigid, dogmatic, stubborn, unreasonable, etc. And unfortunately, the reasonable and pragmatic conservatives are stuck in the middle between these two buffoons. Unlike Dems, who despite having many divergent views, are able to come together for the good of the country - the Never and Always Trumpers seem to lack this ability.

What the Never Trumpers like Cheney don't seem to be able to grasp is the neocon republican party they know and love is not coming back. The republicans have now taken on a populist bent that i don't see going away. And if they can't find a way to compromise with MAGA, Republicans are likely dead as a party.

---

You have been consistent.

---

If you're are truly a conservative (I have serious doubts), I hope at some point it sinks in, and you will stop voting for candidates who work to get Democrats elected.

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"No true Scotsman" fallacy. You are voting your conscience, so am I.

---

If you say so.

I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

---

Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

---

And yet, the damage that was done following Nixon's resignation was terrible and Reagan was tasked with trying to repair those problems for much of his presidency. He was also encumbered by a Democrat congress that stifled his agenda. The idea that Reagan would never have won had Nixon not been impeached is pure speculation at best.

Contrary to your assertions, I believe the methods, institutions, and democratic norms do matter, which is why I will not be voting for Trump in the primaries. The difference between us - besides me actually being conservative - is that I realize conservative policies are always better for the country than liberal policies. If the last 2 years haven't taught you that, I suspect nothing will.

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Almost everyone here realizes that conservative policies are better. The question is whether anything else matters at all. Healthy institutions don't guarantee ideal results. Broken institutions will always bring grief eventually.

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I guess where we differ is a vote for Trump means the institutions are broken or will break. Let's be honest - the institutions haven't been healthy for some time. We saw that with hanging chads and election challenges in 2000. We saw that with ballot harvesting in 2020.

One way to further ensure their destruction is to vote Democrat.

---

He is testing them in new ways. In 2000 at least everyone agreed that a constitutional crisis was something to be avoided. Trump seems to see it as more of a feature than a bug.

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Trump's a clown. It would be best not to give his feeble attempts to overturn the election any more credit than they deserve.

Who will you be voting for in the primaries if the suspected candidates run? Who will you be voting for in the general?

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Unless another front-runner emerges quickly, I'll vote for DeSantis in the primary. I don't like him all that much, but I think it's important to unite around a non-Trump candidate as soon as possible. If DeSantis is in the general I'll vote for him. If Trump is in the general I'll vote for a third party candidate or no one.

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Thanks. Who would you prefer to DeSantis?

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I don't know yet. What about you?

Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

---

post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

---

post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

---

You good with Jan 6th?

4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

---

post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

---

Dishonest arguments don't just make you feel bad (I'm assuming you felt bad posting that). They also make you look bad to the people you're trying to persuade. Do better!

J.R. said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

---

post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

---

You good with Jan 6th?

---

yep, people did dumb stuff and are in jail or awaiting trial. Please stop interupting the adults.

Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

---

post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

---

Dishonest arguments don't just make you feel bad (I'm assuming you felt bad posting that). They also make you look bad to the people you're trying to persuade. Do better!

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JR hack your account? Terrible answer

When too many people vote over and over again for a toxic clown it allows the other side to win with horrible candidates. Some people reduse to vote for a toxic clown for president. When too many people do vote for a toxic clown we wind up where we are now.

Just like HRC was thr only candidate Trump could beat, Biden beat the only candidate he could have beat..

As long as americans think the other half are all idiots and continue to hold their nose and vote we will get Bidens and Trumps.

Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

---

post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

---

Dishonest arguments don't just make you feel bad (I'm assuming you felt bad posting that). They also make you look bad to the people you're trying to persuade. Do better!

---

Keep debunking the bull*****.
Remember Brandolini's Law:
The amount of energy needed to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.

Brandolini's law, also known as the bull**** asymmetry principle, that emphasizes the effort of debunking misinformation, in comparison to the relative ease of creating it in the first place.

Osodecentx said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

---

post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

---

Dishonest arguments don't just make you feel bad (I'm assuming you felt bad posting that). They also make you look bad to the people you're trying to persuade. Do better!

---

Keep debunking the bull*****.
Remember Brandolini's Law:
The amount of energy needed to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.

Brandolini's law, also known as the bull**** asymmetry principle, that emphasizes the effort of debunking misinformation, in comparison to the relative ease of creating it in the first place.

---

what an absolute joke, I asked for specific cited evidence and so far all I've got is a vague reference to January 6. Facts don't care about your feelings.

The people in power transfered peaceffully on jan 20..

Its not like they "took it to the streets" , nope- we "saw democracy in action"

4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

---

post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

---

Dishonest arguments don't just make you feel bad (I'm assuming you felt bad posting that). They also make you look bad to the people you're trying to persuade. Do better!

---

JR hack your account? Terrible answer

---

Sorry, I'm saying transfer of power is a process. Jan. 20 doesn't happen without Jan. 6.

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

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Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

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Of course - one of many. Tell me, what has affected your daily life more - January 6th or Biden's current policies?

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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When too many people vote over and over again for a toxic clown it allows the other side to win with horrible candidates. Some people reduse to vote for a toxic clown for president. When too many people do vote for a toxic clown we wind up where we are now.

Just like HRC was thr only candidate Trump could beat, Biden beat the only candidate he could have beat..

As long as americans think the other half are all idiots and continue to hold their nose and vote we will get Bidens and Trumps.

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We actually have common ground on this. I didn't vote for Trump in the primaries, and he's the last person I wanted to be the nominee.

The distinction you miss, however, is that the American electorate disagreed with both of us, and chose two horrible candidates: Trump and Biden. So reasonable and pragmatic conservatives had to ask themselves, which is the lesser of the evils?

For conservatives, the answer was easy.

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

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No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

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Most Republicans thought impeaching Nixon wasn't too bright. Party leaders went against popular opinion, and what followed was ugly--resignation of the president, a Democratic landslide in 1974, Carter's victory in 1976. We bounced back better than ever with Reagan, one of our most popular and successful presidents. This was possible in large part because of statesmen who were able to think long-term and work for the greater good.

Whiterock holds the opposite opinion, which you seem to share. If the GOP platform IS what's good for the country, then methods, institutions, and democratic norms don't matter. The ends justify the means. This is the same road that leads to all forms of fanaticism.

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And yet, the damage that was done following Nixon's resignation was terrible and Reagan was tasked with trying to repair those problems for much of his presidency. He was also encumbered by a Democrat congress that stifled his agenda. The idea that Reagan would never have won had Nixon not been impeached is pure speculation at best.

Contrary to your assertions, I believe the methods, institutions, and democratic norms do matter, which is why I will not be voting for Trump in the primaries. The difference between us - besides me actually being conservative - is that I realize conservative policies are always better for the country than liberal policies. If the last 2 years haven't taught you that, I suspect nothing will.

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Almost everyone here realizes that conservative policies are better. The question is whether anything else matters at all. Healthy institutions don't guarantee ideal results. Broken institutions will always bring grief eventually.

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I guess where we differ is a vote for Trump means the institutions are broken or will break. Let's be honest - the institutions haven't been healthy for some time. We saw that with hanging chads and election challenges in 2000. We saw that with ballot harvesting in 2020.

One way to further ensure their destruction is to vote Democrat.

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He is testing them in new ways. In 2000 at least everyone agreed that a constitutional crisis was something to be avoided. Trump seems to see it as more of a feature than a bug.

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Trump's a clown. It would be best not to give his feeble attempts to overturn the election any more credit than they deserve.

Who will you be voting for in the primaries if the suspected candidates run? Who will you be voting for in the general?

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Unless another front-runner emerges quickly, I'll vote for DeSantis in the primary. I don't like him all that much, but I think it's important to unite around a non-Trump candidate as soon as possible. If DeSantis is in the general I'll vote for him. If Trump is in the general I'll vote for a third party candidate or no one.

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Thanks. Who would you prefer to DeSantis?

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I don't know yet. What about you?

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I am fond of DeSantis, as I think he's willing to take the fight to the Democrats on important conservative issues. He also doesn't parrot the stolen election b.s. that Trump does. I think he is by far the strongest candidate in the field.

Other than that, I have always been fond of Nikki Haley. As a governor, she was able to garner a large swath of the moderate vote, in addition to the conservative base, and she always seemed smart, strong and articulate. Being a female and minority also helps. I've heard good things about Youngkin as well, though I admittedly don't know much about him. I've also seen Tim Scott's name thrown around a lot, for obvious reasons.

Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

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I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

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Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

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yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

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Sure they did.

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post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

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Dishonest arguments don't just make you feel bad (I'm assuming you felt bad posting that). They also make you look bad to the people you're trying to persuade. Do better!

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JR hack your account? Terrible answer

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Sorry, I'm saying transfer of power is a process. Jan. 20 doesn't happen without Jan. 6.

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Jan 6th was interupted by people not in power.. the people in power did what they were legally mandated to do, and thus power was transfered peacefully on Jan 20..

Donald J Trump was not legally required to do anything and was not part of the jan 6th process. Trump admin preacefully transitioned to Biden just like Obama peacefully transitioned to Trump.

Try again.

4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

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post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

---

Dishonest arguments don't just make you feel bad (I'm assuming you felt bad posting that). They also make you look bad to the people you're trying to persuade. Do better!

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JR hack your account? Terrible answer

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Sorry, I'm saying transfer of power is a process. Jan. 20 doesn't happen without Jan. 6.

---

Jan 6th was interupted by people not in power.. the people in power did what they were legally mandated to do, and thus power was transfered peacefully on Jan 20..

Donald J Trump was not legally required to do anything and was not part of the jan 6th process. Trump admin preacefully transitioned to Biden just like Obama peacefully transitioned to Trump.

Try again.

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link is Breitbart article summarizing a longer WAPO article on a part of last month's Omnibus bill that reformed the Electoral process.

Key portion:
Currently, only one member from the House and Senate is required to object to an elector or slate of electors.

Under the Senate version of the bill, sponsored by Sens. Susan Collins (R-ME) and Joe Manchin (D-WV), one-fifth of lawmakers from both chambers of Congress would be required to disrupt the certification process.

The House version, written by Reps. Liz Cheney (R-WY) and Zoe Lofgren (D-CA), would raise the threshold required to disrupt the certification process to one-third members of both chambers.

The bill would also ensure that the vice president's role during the certification process is strictly ceremonial.
The Electoral Count Reform Act is supported by Democrat Senate Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) and Republican Senate Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY).

"Our bipartisan bill is backed by election law experts and organizations across the ideological spectrum and a broad cross section of Senators from both parties," Collins and Manchin said in a joint statement in September. "We will keep working to increase support for our legislation that would correct the flaws in this archaic and ambiguous law.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/12/19/report-omnibus-bill-to-include-electoral-count-act-that-was-crafted-in-response-to-january-6/

"The Senate bill would also strike a provision of an "archaic 1845 law" that could be used by state legislatures to override their states' popular votes by declaring a "failed election," a term not defined by law, according to a summary of the bill from Collins's office.

"Instead, this legislation specifies that a state could move its presidential election day, which otherwise would remain the Tuesday immediately following the first Monday in November every four years, only if necessitated by 'extraordinary and catastrophic' events," the document notes."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/19/electoral-count-reform-omnibus/


The implications of this reform are obvious: If Trump's effort to challenge certification of the Electoral Vote was illegal, why amend law to make it so?

whiterock said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

I have my doubts that a real conservative would vote for a toxic clown twice and maybe three times.

---

I have no doubt that only a moron with a limited IQ, who calls himself conservative, would continue voting in a way that gets a guy who is the antithesis of traditional conservative values elected.

---

Is the peaceful transfer of power a conservative value?

---

yep, and those in power totally did it peacefully..

---

Sure they did.

---

post link of evidence showing jan 20 transfer of power didnt happen peacefully.. I will wait. Try not to bring up useless stuff that is not relevant to transfer of power please.

---

Dishonest arguments don't just make you feel bad (I'm assuming you felt bad posting that). They also make you look bad to the people you're trying to persuade. Do better!

---

JR hack your account? Terrible answer

---

Sorry, I'm saying transfer of power is a process. Jan. 20 doesn't happen without Jan. 6.

---

Jan 6th was interupted by people not in power.. the people in power did what they were legally mandated to do, and thus power was transfered peacefully on Jan 20..

Donald J Trump was not legally required to do anything and was not part of the jan 6th process. Trump admin preacefully transitioned to Biden just like Obama peacefully transitioned to Trump.

Try again.

---

link is Breitbart article summarizing a longer WAPO article on a part of last month's Omnibus bill that reformed the Electoral process.

Key portion:
Currently, only one member from the House and Senate is required to object to an elector or slate of electors.

Under the Senate version of the bill, sponsored by Sens. Susan Collins (R-ME) and Joe Manchin (D-WV), one-fifth of lawmakers from both chambers of Congress would be required to disrupt the certification process.

The House version, written by Reps. Liz Cheney (R-WY) and Zoe Lofgren (D-CA), would raise the threshold required to disrupt the certification process to one-third members of both chambers.

The bill would also ensure that the vice president's role during the certification process is strictly ceremonial.
The Electoral Count Reform Act is supported by Democrat Senate Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) and Republican Senate Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY).

"Our bipartisan bill is backed by election law experts and organizations across the ideological spectrum and a broad cross section of Senators from both parties," Collins and Manchin said in a joint statement in September. "We will keep working to increase support for our legislation that would correct the flaws in this archaic and ambiguous law.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/12/19/report-omnibus-bill-to-include-electoral-count-act-that-was-crafted-in-response-to-january-6/

"The Senate bill would also strike a provision of an "archaic 1845 law" that could be used by state legislatures to override their states' popular votes by declaring a "failed election," a term not defined by law, according to a summary of the bill from Collins's office.

"Instead, this legislation specifies that a state could move its presidential election day, which otherwise would remain the Tuesday immediately following the first Monday in November every four years, only if necessitated by 'extraordinary and catastrophic' events," the document notes."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/19/electoral-count-reform-omnibus/


The implications of this reform are obvious: If Trump's effort to challenge certification of the Electoral Vote was illegal, why amend law to make it so?

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ugh, lazy writing.. objecting which has a lawful process that has been used for years by both parties is a disruption of the certification process? Bullsh.. journalism