Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

What makes no sense is the idea that we can amend the Constitution before the next election. Trump has made it quite clear that he wants to be reinstated regardless of any rules.

---

people want alot of things.. i want the fed govt to stop blowing billions to make the washington swamp and their buddies wealthier at the expense of the working class Americans.

There are no rules to correct an election error once the president is sworn in. If they admitted the 2020 election was a total farce today, there is nothing that can be done. We have seen increasing proof of electioneering by the Democrats and the administrative state. There is nobody to punish the crime and no way to undo the act. You know this..

He was lead astray by those who were around him during and after the election but he was right that it happened, just not about how it happened..

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. %A0 %A0 Latter lost by 238 votes. %A0Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. %A0Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. %A0You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. %A0Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. %A0You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. %A0Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

What makes no sense is the idea that we can amend the Constitution before the next election. Trump has made it quite clear that he wants to be reinstated regardless of any rules.

---

people want alot of things.. i want the fed govt to stop blowing billions to make the washington swamp and their buddies wealthier at the expense of the working class Americans.

There are no rules to correct an election error once the president is sworn in. %A0If they admitted the 2020 election was a total farce today, there is nothing that can be done. %A0We have seen increasing proof of electioneering by the Democrats and the administrative state. There is nobody to punish the crime and no way to undo the act. You know this..

He was lead astray by those who were around him during and after the election but he was right that it happened, just not about how it happened..

---

There's a good reason we don't go back and undo an election years later. Nothing would ever be settled, and no administration's stability could ever be relied on. That doesn't mean there's no remedy. Laws can be changed. Crimes can be punished. As always, the problem is proof. You or Trump saying there's proof doesn't make it so. The evidence needs to be tested. In this case it didn't pass the test.

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. %A0 %A0 Latter lost by 238 votes. %A0Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. %A0Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. %A0You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. %A0Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. %A0You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. %A0Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

What makes no sense is the idea that we can amend the Constitution before the next election. Trump has made it quite clear that he wants to be reinstated regardless of any rules.

---

people want alot of things.. i want the fed govt to stop blowing billions to make the washington swamp and their buddies wealthier at the expense of the working class Americans.

There are no rules to correct an election error once the president is sworn in. %A0If they admitted the 2020 election was a total farce today, there is nothing that can be done. %A0We have seen increasing proof of electioneering by the Democrats and the administrative state. There is nobody to punish the crime and no way to undo the act. You know this..

He was lead astray by those who were around him during and after the election but he was right that it happened, just not about how it happened..

---

There's a good reason we don't go back and undo an election years later. Nothing would ever be settled, and no administration's stability could ever be relied on. That doesn't mean there's no remedy. Laws can be changed. Crimes can be punished. As always, the problem is proof. You or Trump saying there's proof doesn't make it so. The evidence needs to be tested. In this case it didn't pass the test.

---

plenty of proof, those that wanted to work on fixing it did like GA and Wisc. There are clear signs and adjustments made based on the failures of 2020. Those corrections could have changed the outcome. Its that simple.

The evidence is continually tested and has been found favorable to Trump in several cases. (not the utter nonsense thrown together after election but real court cases.)

Very hard to prove things without control over the evidence. If I destroy all the evidence of a crime, how do you prove it and punish me?

In elections, very few have standing to file suit, very few have the ability to punish if there is a crime and they have to want to press the issue.

No harm before the act so case dismissed and laches after the act so case dismissed. Judges really dont want to be involved in election cases that decide active elections.

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

This is what the Biden people say to explain the dumb-ass-ness

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

This is what the Biden people say to explain the dumb-ass-ness

---

go listen to Joe from 10 years ago, he spoke just fine

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. %A0 %A0 Latter lost by 238 votes. %A0Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. %A0Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. %A0You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. %A0Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. %A0You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. %A0Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

What makes no sense is the idea that we can amend the Constitution before the next election. Trump has made it quite clear that he wants to be reinstated regardless of any rules.

---

people want alot of things.. i want the fed govt to stop blowing billions to make the washington swamp and their buddies wealthier at the expense of the working class Americans.

There are no rules to correct an election error once the president is sworn in. %A0If they admitted the 2020 election was a total farce today, there is nothing that can be done. %A0We have seen increasing proof of electioneering by the Democrats and the administrative state. There is nobody to punish the crime and no way to undo the act. You know this..

He was lead astray by those who were around him during and after the election but he was right that it happened, just not about how it happened..

---

There's a good reason we don't go back and undo an election years later. Nothing would ever be settled, and no administration's stability could ever be relied on. That doesn't mean there's no remedy. Laws can be changed. Crimes can be punished. As always, the problem is proof. You or Trump saying there's proof doesn't make it so. The evidence needs to be tested. In this case it didn't pass the test.

---

plenty of proof, those that wanted to work on fixing it did like GA and Wisc. There are clear signs and adjustments made based on the failures of 2020. Those corrections could have changed the outcome. Its that simple.

The evidence is continually tested and has been found favorable to Trump in several cases. (not the utter nonsense thrown together after election but real court cases.)

Very hard to prove things without control over the evidence. If I destroy all the evidence of a crime, how do you prove it and punish me?

In elections, very few have standing to file suit, very few have the ability to punish if there is a crime and they have to want to press the issue.

No harm before the act so case dismissed and laches after the act so case dismissed. Judges really dont want to be involved in election cases that decide active elections.

---

Laches is only a defense because the plaintiff makes it a defense. He could have brought those claims before the election if he thought they would make a difference. The nonsense after the election was more valuable to him. It was the plan all along.

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

This is what the Biden people say to explain the dumb-ass-ness

---

go listen to Joe from 10 years ago, he spoke just fine

---

Biden has been a dumbass for decades. Just saying the WH is using the same defense you use for the Dear Leader

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

This is what the Biden people say to explain the dumb-ass-ness

---

go listen to Joe from 10 years ago, he spoke just fine

---

Biden has been a dumbass for decades. Just saying the WH is using the same defense you use for the Dear Leader

---

saying things that dont make sense in any way no matter how biased you are is not the same thing as what Trump does

Joe Biden isnt saying dumbass things, he is staying things that a dementia patient would say.. He and Fetterman run a close race on Incoherent nonsense when talking to the public

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

This is what the Biden people say to explain the dumb-ass-ness

---

go listen to Joe from 10 years ago, he spoke just fine

---

Biden has been a dumbass for decades. Just saying the WH is using the same defense you use for the Dear Leader

---

saying things that dont make sense in any way no matter how biased you are is not the same thing as what Trump does

Joe Biden isnt saying dumbass things, he is staying things that a dementia patient would say.. He and Fetterman run a close race on Incoherent nonsense when talking to the public

---

WH using same explanation
Trump talking about terminating portions of Constitution needs a lot of spin

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

This is what the Biden people say to explain the dumb-ass-ness

---

go listen to Joe from 10 years ago, he spoke just fine

---

Biden has been a dumbass for decades. Just saying the WH is using the same defense you use for the Dear Leader

---

saying things that dont make sense in any way no matter how biased you are is not the same thing as what Trump does

Joe Biden isnt saying dumbass things, he is staying things that a dementia patient would say.. He and Fetterman run a close race on Incoherent nonsense when talking to the public

---

WH using same explanation
Trump talking about terminating portions of Constitution needs a lot of spin

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

i'm still waiting for them to figure out what happened to the other 200,000 votes in Maricopa county. 500,000 people signed in to vote but only 300,000 people actually are recoreded a vote on election day where's the other 200,000 votes?

When 60% of your machines arent working, its a solid case for disenfranchisement and it looks like there are 200,000 cases of it. Does it change the outcome? Maybe, its enough missed votes and statistically, Lake was winning the in person vote.

The system failed the people of AZ even if the outcome wouldnt change.

---

Keep singing that song. Independents & moderates love it

---

as they should, the song of free and fair elections is a great tune!

---

And suspension of the Constitution when you lose an election

---

more like a modification to fix the areas where it is silent. You and Sam are quite good at twisting words, doesnt make you right.

Ask yourself, if Pence had no power as yall claimed, why did they clarify and update powers of VP during the election process in the omnibus bill?

---

Trump said to terminate, not to amend. Talk about twisting words.

---

he also said portions but you like to leave that out

---

Okay, terminate portion of the Constitution. Those are your boy's words.

"the termination of all rules ... even those found in the Constitution."

---

which can be implied as not having elections which makes no sense in this context especially with his clarifying statements or writing new ones that covered the issues.

You fall on the side of Trump is a dictator and I fall on the side of Trump sucks at eloquent public speaking. King of smart ass foot in mouth comments.. the media and the political machine love it for the ratings and the fund raising..

---

This is what the Biden people say to explain the dumb-ass-ness

---

go listen to Joe from 10 years ago, he spoke just fine

---

Biden has been a dumbass for decades. Just saying the WH is using the same defense you use for the Dear Leader

---

saying things that dont make sense in any way no matter how biased you are is not the same thing as what Trump does

Joe Biden isnt saying dumbass things, he is staying things that a dementia patient would say.. He and Fetterman run a close race on Incoherent nonsense when talking to the public

---

WH using same explanation
Trump talking about terminating portions of Constitution needs a lot of spin

---

---

I agree

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

Yep, those Trumpkins are just like the Tea Party. Individual liberty, limited government, violent sedition...good old conservative values.

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos.

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

Did you support Allen West?

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

Did you support Allen West?

---

For party chairman, yes.

For governor, no.

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

Rayburn's adage concerned legislation, not general elections. The Rayburn quote you're looking for is "Go along to get along."
You are on the Republican state board of directors and you believe whatever your party nominates should be elected, no matter how bad. I don't. Also, I think the purpose of a political party is to do what's best for the country, not the party.

I supported Cheney because she attempted to hold Trump accountable. However much credit you want to give me I accept proudly.

Why did non-Trump Republicans in AZ and elsewhere win? They attracted moderates and independents and they aren't bozos. How did you guys blow it so badly?
Highest inflation in 40 years
Worst border crisis in history
Most unpopular president since Truman (Biden approval around 40%)
75% of voters say country is going in the wrong direction
Worst crime wave since the 90s

Yet voters looked at the Trump recruited candidates and said "no". Why?

Are your 5 MAGA Repubs going to elect a Democrat Speaker?

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

Mothra said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

---

Notice they cannot point to one single piece of policy or legislation real or proposed by Trump with which they disagree, just "ORANGE MAN BAD" and calling candidate "bozos" for no substantial reason. Trump lives rent-free is so many heads they just react emotionally to him.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Mothra said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

---

Notice they cannot point to one single piece of policy or legislation real or proposed by Trump with which they disagree, just "ORANGE MAN BAD" and calling candidate "bozos" for no substantial reason. Trump lives rent-free is so many heads they just react emotionally to him.

---

Termination of parts of the Constitution, denying he lost the 2020 election, loss of the US Senate, encouraging Jan 6 violence to disrupt a Constitutionally mandated process.

Notice there are several policies. I could list more

Mothra said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

---

Now Independents are turncoats? I don't see my duty as voting for candidates just because they are Republicans. Your party is going through a rough patch now and it is your own fault. You've recognized the malign actions of Trump, yet you will vote for him again in the 2024 general election. I hope to be able to vote for a good Republican presidential candidate in November, 2024. I'll be voting in your primary.

I supported the Cheney reelection bid in Wyoming and am proud of her actions in AZ, where non-Trump candidates did just fine. If you want to blame me for Lake's loss (like white rock) I'm proud to plead guilty.

Never Trump

Osodecentx said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Mothra said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

---

Notice they cannot point to one single piece of policy or legislation real or proposed by Trump with which they disagree, just "ORANGE MAN BAD" and calling candidate "bozos" for no substantial reason. Trump lives rent-free is so many heads they just react emotionally to him.

---

Termination of parts of the Constitution, denying he lost the 2020 election, loss of the US Senate, encouraging Jan 6 violence to disrupt a Constitutionally mandated process.

Notice there are several policies. I could list more

---

none of those are policies and pretty much all were comments or actions after he was not re-elected.. back to square one.

Osodecentx said:

---

Mothra said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

---

Now Independents are turncoats? I don't see my duty as voting for candidates just because they are Republicans. Your party is going through a rough patch now and it is your own fault. You've recognized the malign actions of Trump, yet you will vote for him again in the 2024 general election. I hope to be able to vote for a good Republican presidential candidate in November, 2024. I'll be voting in your primary.

I supported the Cheney reelection bid in Wyoming and am proud of her actions in AZ, where non-Trump candidates did just fine. If you want to blame me for Lake's loss (like white rock) I'm proud to plead guilty.

Never Trump

---

As I've said for years, conservatives who vote (or don't vote) in a way that get candidates elected who propagate the current policies that are ruining our country are indeed short-sighted turncoats. That's the least insulting way to describe them. Like their counterparts on the opposite end of the spectrum - the Always Trumpers - they are extremists who lack the pragmatism and reasonableness to understand that some conservative policies are better than none at all. Yet like the self-aggrandizing buffoon and war mongering neocon, Cheney, they'd rather burn the house down and ruin the country for conservatives forever than try to find a way to co-exist with their MAGA counterparts. The irony is they possess many of the exact same attributes as the Always Trumpers that they loathe - rigid, dogmatic, stubborn, unreasonable, etc. And unfortunately, the reasonable and pragmatic conservatives are stuck in the middle between these two buffoons. Unlike Dems, who despite having many divergent views, are able to come together for the good of the country - the Never and Always Trumpers seem to lack this ability.

What the Never Trumpers like Cheney don't seem to be able to grasp is the neocon republican party they know and love is not coming back. The republicans have now taken on a populist bent that i don't see going away. And if they can't find a way to compromise with MAGA, Republicans are likely dead as a party.

policies:

Instead of real immigration reform, he chose to build half a wall that American tax payers had to pay for. Not a big beautiful wall but half a wall. Thanks

Tariffs or taxes on Americans, for his trade "war" with China. The American people lost. There were more factory jobs at the start f Trumps term than at the end. Our Chinese trade deficit expanded,

In less than one term, the debt under Trump's presidency increased more than $7.5 trillion. In comparison, only Barack Obama had increased national debt more, totaling $8.3 trillion throughout his 8 years as President. During his presidency, national debt increased 37.1% under Trump

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

policies:

Instead of real immigration reform, he chose to build half a wall that American tax payers had to pay for. Not a big beautiful wall but half a wall. Thanks

Tariffs or taxes on Americans, for his trade "war" with China. The American people lost. There were more factory jobs at the start f Trumps term than at the end. Our Chinese trade deficit expanded,

In less than one term, the debt under Trump's presidency increased more than $7.5 trillion. In comparison, only Barack Obama had increased national debt more, totaling $8.3 trillion throughout his 8 years as President. During his presidency, national debt increased 37.1% under Trump

---

at least these were policies.

The border was more secure during Trumps admin than now by over 10x.. his border policies worked

Tarrifs werent great so sure but income in middle americas pocket was better and unemployment was historic low prior to covid. Most didnt see the tarrifs as bad.

Covid was a real stain on Trump presidency from an economic stand point. Obama didnt have to deal with a global economy destroying pandemic..

President Trump's Fiscal Year (FY) 2021 budget called for about $3.2 trillion in net deficit reduction over the next decade by our estimate, including nearly $2 trillion in cuts to discretionary spending.

One of Trumps biggest Spends was pandemic relief legislation ($3.9 trillion

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Mothra said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

---

I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

---

Now Independents are turncoats? I don't see my duty as voting for candidates just because they are Republicans. Your party is going through a rough patch now and it is your own fault. You've recognized the malign actions of Trump, yet you will vote for him again in the 2024 general election. I hope to be able to vote for a good Republican presidential candidate in November, 2024. I'll be voting in your primary.

I supported the Cheney reelection bid in Wyoming and am proud of her actions in AZ, where non-Trump candidates did just fine. If you want to blame me for Lake's loss (like white rock) I'm proud to plead guilty.

Never Trump

---

As I've said for years, conservatives who vote (or don't vote) in a way that get candidates elected who propagate the current policies that are ruining our country are indeed short-sighted turncoats. That's the least insulting way to describe them. Like their counterparts on the opposite end of the spectrum - the Always Trumpers - they are extremists who lack the pragmatism and reasonableness to understand that some conservative policies are better than none at all. Yet like the self-aggrandizing buffoon and war mongering neocon, Cheney, they'd rather burn the house down and ruin the country for conservatives forever than try to find a way to co-exist with their MAGA counterparts. The irony is they possess many of the exact same attributes as the Always Trumpers that they loathe - rigid, dogmatic, stubborn, unreasonable, etc. And unfortunately, the reasonable and pragmatic conservatives are stuck in the middle between these two buffoons. Unlike Dems, who despite having many divergent views, are able to come together for the good of the country - the Never and Always Trumpers seem to lack this ability.

What the Never Trumpers like Cheney don't seem to be able to grasp is the neocon republican party they know and love is not coming back. The republicans have now taken on a populist bent that i don't see going away. And if they can't find a way to compromise with MAGA, Republicans are likely dead as a party.

---

You have been consistent.

4th and Inches said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Mothra said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

AZ losses solely on election deniers

---

You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

---

If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

---

McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

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wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

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I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

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The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

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We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

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Notice they cannot point to one single piece of policy or legislation real or proposed by Trump with which they disagree, just "ORANGE MAN BAD" and calling candidate "bozos" for no substantial reason. Trump lives rent-free is so many heads they just react emotionally to him.

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Termination of parts of the Constitution, denying he lost the 2020 election, loss of the US Senate, encouraging Jan 6 violence to disrupt a Constitutionally mandated process.

Notice there are several policies. I could list more

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none of those are policies and pretty much all were comments or actions after he was not re-elected.. back to square one.

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Policies are announced by comments and actions

Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

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Trump spent millions of dollars on a project he couldnt complete and lied about who would pay for it

His downplaying of covid (no worries, i got under cintrol) and shutting off china but waiting weeks and weeks to shut of Europe where Italy and others were struggling..

Trump getting us out of the Asian Pacific trade treaty gave China a huge boost on their trade.

---

No doubt, Trump's presidency was disappointing. He did indeed spend like a liberal. And his promises regarding the border wall never came to fruition.

But what boggles the mind about you ridiculous Never Trumpers is the willingness to cut off your nose to spite your face. The current spending and border policies (does Biden actually have any?) are ruining the country. Biden just signed the biggest spending bill in American history. It is projected to increase the national debt more than any bill in history. And the number of illegals who crossed our borders in 2022 was more than 2 million. That's almost as many crossings as the entire 4-year-term of Trump's presidency (which, at one point reached a 50-year low).

So you NT's complain about Trump's spending and immigration policies, and then you vote in a way that allows far more disastrous spending and immigration policies to take their place.

You guys aren't too bright.

Osodecentx said:

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I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.


Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

Rayburn's adage concerned legislation, not general elections. The Rayburn quote you're looking for is "Go along to get along."
You make a distinction without a difference.
You are on the Republican state board of directors and you believe whatever your party nominates should be elected, no matter how bad. I don't. Also, I think the purpose of a political party is to do what's best for the country, not the party.
False dilemma. The GOP platform IS what's best for the country. Compromise occurs not because some watered down version is better than the original. Rather, compromise is how you get pieces of the platform enacted. Your view is typical moderate vanity, that the virtue lies in the compromise itself, that there is something unseemly about the principles because they get in the way of the compromise.

I supported Cheney because she attempted to hold Trump accountable. However much credit you want to give me I accept proudly.
Your supported someone who pledged to defeat Republican candidates, and put in shoeleather to get it done, specifically on-site in AZ. Fine. The irony is that after neverTrumpers work to defeat Republicans, they then attempt to blame Trump rather than themselves. Very disingenuous. Several (not all) of the mid-term disappointments are on the neverTrumpers.

Why did non-Trump Republicans in AZ and elsewhere win? They attracted moderates and independents and they aren't bozos. How did you guys blow it so badly?
Because in at least 3 high profile races discussed, the neverTrumpers put party in-fighting ahead of pursuit of principle.
Highest inflation in 40 years
Worst border crisis in history
Most unpopular president since Truman (Biden approval around 40%)
75% of voters say country is going in the wrong direction
Worst crime wave since the 90s
See below.

Yet voters looked at the Trump recruited candidates and said "no". Why?
Trump wasn't the only, or even the primary issue.

Are your 5 MAGA Repubs going to elect a Democrat Speaker?
Hopefully not. But you really are not following that closely, apparently. Most MAGA-reps are supporting McCarthy, because Trump endorsed him (before and after the election) and is actually calling (publicly and privately) those reps to get them to come on board. which brings us back to that distinction without a difference. Trump is trying to build something. You are trying to tear something down.

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It should have been better, but it wasn't as bad as critics allege. Some of the bigger wins of the night were Trump endorsees. GOP won the House as well as the national popular vote, and Dem successes are fairly easily to understand. Mostly - every incumbent won. Hardly a surprise in the abstract, even moreso when one looks at the numbers and natures of the states in question - Senate Dems only had 14 seats up for re-election, all in blue or purple states. That allowed them to concentrate fundraising in a handful of places. IN the House, the15 seat gain in 2020 (with Trump on the ticket....) cut into the list of competitive seats in 2022. (kinda rare to lose the WH yet pick up seats in Congress, and doing so undermines the premise that Trump was the sole problem). We see serious weaknesses in small donor funding. We had an actually counterproductive approach to mail-in voting. And we had party infighting, with highly questionable decisions in particular by Senate leadership. And the national GOP should not escape accountability, either. Mixed (disappointing) results in 3 successive elections. New leadership there becomes all the more important because Mitch (who had the gaffe of the cycle) ain't going away. While we lumbered, Dems were well funded, with great operations, outstanding micro-targeting with good messaging.

If all we do is replace Trump with (insert name here) and keep everything else the same, we might see a somewhat better outcome in Senate races, due to fact Dems will have 25 seats exposed. Otherwise we would see the same or worse outcome. We have a lot of work to do, none of which involves neverTrumpers, who as we have seen are quite willing to lose races as a matter of principle - purging the party of anything too conservative.

some good links to read re GOP infighting. There's always tug-of-war going on in a party between grassroots and establishment. The Trump dynamic is a bit different, more of a "new vs old" party coalition, and establishments have generally welcomed the new demographics of the Trump coalition while trying to keep Trump himself at a distance. But now establishments (McConnell in particular) are attempting to use the 2022 outcome to finish Trump. (See link).
https://nypost.com/2022/12/23/mitch-mcconnell-says-trumps-political-clout-has-diminished/

Risk there (as I've noted before) is that it is difficult to see how that crusade will not fall into the deep and well-worn ruts of garden variety grassroots vs establishment infighting. Several good (and unusually thoughtful, given the subject) links below:
https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2022/12/29/the-republicans-mitch-mcconnell-problem-n2617637
https://spectator.org/senate-mitch-mcconnell-problem-american-spectator-print-magazine/
https://thefederalist.com/2022/12/21/gop-cant-be-successful-until-mitch-mcconnell-is-gone/

neverTrumpers have been quite clear that they're willing to burn it down to get rid of Trump.
because he's....you know...too radical.

Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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whiterock said:

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Osodecentx said:

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AZ losses solely on election deniers

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You helped fund neverTrump campaigning against Lake, Masters, Hamadeh. Latter lost by 238 votes. Your donation alone might have been enough to get him beat.

neverTrumpers were not an issue everywhere, but in AZ, at least two of those statewide losses were solely due to neverTrump defections, within context of establishment/base infighting that predates Trump.

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If true, it's the best $1,000 I've spent, but I fear you are just being nice. Being ugly to McCain and Flake probably drove Independents to Hobbs

If you nominate stupid candidates, you get stupid results. You guys drank the Trump Koolaide and act like it is someone else's fault when they lose.

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McCain and Flake, like you, actually organized defections of moderate Republicans to vote for Democrats, over control of the party.

It's an old dynamic. Moderate factions that are slipping or actually have lost always allege the party has been taken over by some outside force or band of crazies. "Monkey's driving the bus" was a phrase used during the Tea Party, by the side that lost. Today, a big percentage of party infrastructure are people who joined during the Tea Party era. They were loyal level headed people who were needed then and are critical now to keeping Texas red. They weren't a problem then or now. They were the solution to creeping decrepitude. But they looked like a scalping party to the sitting establishment at the time, threatening to upend years of work.

Parties, and the coalitions of thought and people that form them, will evolve in response to time and events. But dysfunctional party leadership structures, driven by the need to maintain control, tend first to become gatekeepers, then get ever more rigid. And when that leadership structure finally fails, the establishment often turns furiously on its base. TxGOP establishment lost by ONE vote when I was on the board, during an off-cycle appointment of James Dickey as a new chairman (old one resigned for personal reasons). Six months later, when establishment (Cindy Asche) sought to return to power at convention, their campaign mantra was "the party has been seized by Libertarians!" Turned off a lot of delegates with that, and Dickey won on the floor 2-1. I gave a nominating speech for Rick Figueroa at that mid-cycle election. Dickey said all the right things, of course, but I just had a negative gut feeling about him. I remained uncommitted at convention, as I was an outgoing board member. But I voted for Dickey. Partly it was because I realized he'd done a good job in the 6 months he was in office. Mostly it was because I was turned off by Asche's frantic, slashing attacks. You cannot build a party that way. Dickey went on to do well in the next term. (in no small part because statewide electeds closed ranks around him and helped him rather than continuing the base-establishment fight.)

Bottom line is, the establishment turns on the base are a dynamic usually driven by narcissism, vanity, pride, conceit...."y'all are nincompoops who don't understand how trains run.....things will fail without us....money is what wins elections." And in fairness, the base tends to believe that establishments are parasites which could not win on their own, that grassroots wins elections. In reality, BOTH are important. You have to have BOTH working together to win. But as we see with Trump, the grassroots tends to be a lot more flexible and tolerant than establishments. The Flake/Romney types are pure poison for building political parties. It's all about their ego....they're too statesman like to actually let the hem of their garment touch the tainted ground of partisan politics. Being in a minority is, perversely, not entirely bad for guys like that. It affords even more opportunity to engage in "statesmanship" with the other side.

Big losses, like Crist in FL or Mastriano in PA, are a multi-system failure.....perfect storm of bad. No amount of party cooperation can close the gap. It's the close losses that hurt. They are ALWAYS an indictment on the party. A 238 vote loss in AZ AG, a 17k vote loss in AZ GOV.....that's due to party division = McCaniacs organizing neverTrumpers to split tickets. Had the party come together, those races get won. Easily. But AZ establishment went nationwide for help and fundraising to defeat Republicans. We have evidence of it right here on this board.

You don't own very much of the mid-term disappointments.
But YOU own two of those AZ losses.
And I give you credit for finally standing up to accept your laurels.
If you're going to piss in the punchbowl, don't do it in a quiet corner in the kitchen.
Be a man. Climb up on the serving table and do it in front of the guests.

---

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You accuse me of defeating Lake like it is something of which to be ashamed. If I did I'm damned proud of it. The truth is Trump endorsed some bozos and the bozos performed as expected. That's why Democrats gave some of the bozos money, to get the weaker candidates. Non-Trump candidates in AZ did just fine. Same for Republicans in Ohio, Florida and Georgia.

I'm an Independent who leans Republican; I voted for a number of Democrats in Texas in 2022 (not Beto).
You are a Republican partisan who will vote for the Republican no matter how flawed he/she is. You are "my party right or wrong" & a former SREC. That's fine for you.
I'm "my country/state/county/city" right or wrong; what's best for the country/state/county/city and that isn't always a Republican, e.g. Paxton & Sid Miller.

Now you are trying to blame moderate Republicans for not voting a straight Republican ticket. Okay, blame them, but you're missing the real reason. Moderates and Independents won't vote for bozos on the Republican ticket, only the Democrat ticket.

---

wait a minute. Why would an agnostic independent who votes for Dems occasionally lead the charge here against Trump and angrily blame him for being the sole reason we lost the AZ Gov race? (after having donating $1000 to a person who noisily campaigned against Lake in that race.) I mean, seriously. You should be happy the Dems kept the Senate and won all those races. Why are using all those losses to grind against Trump? Shouldn't you be happy??? Aren't you just going to wait and see where all the bozos are and vote accordingly?
(you are actually "identifying as an independent" in order to give your arguments greater moral authority.)

I fixed that last sentence for you.

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I think Schumer is bad for the country and wanted Republicans to be in the majority. Trump is the reason Republicans are not in the majority. Congratulations. Your Dear Leader was the difference.

Unlike you, I won't vote for bozos just because they are Republicans. Lake was a bozo and couldn't win when other Republicans in AZ won. I think you gave me credit for her defeat - thanks. We couldn't have done it without Trump, though.

Agnostic? In party loyalty, yes.

---

The purpose of political parties is to unite and turnout the base. By definition, when party infighting results in Republicans in one state raising money to cross state lines to organize Republicans in other states to vote for Democrats, and then Democrats win 2 races by 280 votes and 17k votes.....then mathematically the pox is straightforwardly on Republicans, which you are until you got mad at Trump (and quit thinking and started feeling.) Cheney couldn't get elected in her own state (thanks to her own bozo-esque megalomania), so she decided to do damage elsewhere. Sam Rayburn had an adage about people like her - "a jackass can kick a barn down, but it takes a carpenter to build one."

You participated in the AZ races. You kicked something down. Be happy. Own it. You HELPED someone you believe is bad for the country stay in power. But you have more pins in your golden haired voodoo doll, so there's that.....

---

We don't agree at all about Trump as a viable candidate going forward but you're spot on about the turncoats who prefer the carnage being done by Biden to Trump or a Trump candidate. They would cut off their nose to spite their face.

The fact anyone would support Cheney - who supported multiple democrats this last election cycle - tells you how short sighted some people are.

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Now Independents are turncoats? I don't see my duty as voting for candidates just because they are Republicans. Your party is going through a rough patch now and it is your own fault. You've recognized the malign actions of Trump, yet you will vote for him again in the 2024 general election. I hope to be able to vote for a good Republican presidential candidate in November, 2024. I'll be voting in your primary.

I supported the Cheney reelection bid in Wyoming and am proud of her actions in AZ, where non-Trump candidates did just fine. If you want to blame me for Lake's loss (like white rock) I'm proud to plead guilty.

Never Trump

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As I've said for years, conservatives who vote (or don't vote) in a way that get candidates elected who propagate the current policies that are ruining our country are indeed short-sighted turncoats. That's the least insulting way to describe them. Like their counterparts on the opposite end of the spectrum - the Always Trumpers - they are extremists who lack the pragmatism and reasonableness to understand that some conservative policies are better than none at all. Yet like the self-aggrandizing buffoon and war mongering neocon, Cheney, they'd rather burn the house down and ruin the country for conservatives forever than try to find a way to co-exist with their MAGA counterparts. The irony is they possess many of the exact same attributes as the Always Trumpers that they loathe - rigid, dogmatic, stubborn, unreasonable, etc. And unfortunately, the reasonable and pragmatic conservatives are stuck in the middle between these two buffoons. Unlike Dems, who despite having many divergent views, are able to come together for the good of the country - the Never and Always Trumpers seem to lack this ability.

What the Never Trumpers like Cheney don't seem to be able to grasp is the neocon republican party they know and love is not coming back. The republicans have now taken on a populist bent that i don't see going away. And if they can't find a way to compromise with MAGA, Republicans are likely dead as a party.

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You have been consistent.

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If you're are truly a conservative (I have serious doubts), I hope at some point it sinks in, and you will stop voting for candidates who work to get Democrats elected.

Your supported someone who pledged to defeat Republican candidates, and put in shoeleather to get it done, specifically on-site in AZ. Fine. The irony is that after neverTrumpers work to defeat Republicans, they then attempt to blame Trump rather than themselves. Very disingenuous. Several (not all) of the mid-term disappointments are on the neverTrumpers.

Boy, is this the truth. The NT's lack self-awareness more than any group of people I've ever met.