Trump charged by Justice Department for efforts to overturn 2020 election

56,143 Views | 568 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Jack Bauer
whiterock
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Redbrickbear said:


Quote:

Is there any exception to the public buildings being open if one of the parties is trying to create a Reichstag Fire moment? Optics are important when you are talking about Threats to Our Democracy (tm).

The Reichstag fire is of course when a single party used a late night fire at the governmental capitol building to suspend the Constitution and deprive the people of their rights and outlaw other political parties.

It was very different from the people protesting inside the building.

The danger of a "reichstag fire event" is not a riot, or fire, or bomb in the capitol...all of which is mere physical damage that can be easily repaired....its the reaction of tyrannical government system to such an event.

[Nominal "protection of the state" is what allowed Hitler to use the Reichstag fire to thoroughly discredit his political opposition. It was the German communists -not Hitler's own national socialists- who had attacked the Reichstag. Thus, according to the logic Hitler had been presenting to the public long before the fire, the communists had proven themselves enemies of the German State by attacking a symbol of Germany: the Reichstag. And so by default, the communists had placed their opponents the Nazis in the role of Germany's protector]

Wow that sounds a lot like what the American Liberals have been doing since Jan. 6th.

Framing themselves as "protectors of the American State"....using the event as an excuse to try and crush their domestic opposition.


https://time.com/6137403/january-6th-political-violence/

The "Reichstag Fire' analogy applies not to what the rioters did on J6, but how the Dems reacted to the riot.

Dems are using the J6 riot as a justification to deprive their political opponents of First Amendment liberties.

Redbrickbear
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whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:


Quote:

Is there any exception to the public buildings being open if one of the parties is trying to create a Reichstag Fire moment? Optics are important when you are talking about Threats to Our Democracy (tm).

The Reichstag fire is of course when a single party used a late night fire at the governmental capitol building to suspend the Constitution and deprive the people of their rights and outlaw other political parties.

It was very different from the people protesting inside the building.

The danger of a "reichstag fire event" is not a riot, or fire, or bomb in the capitol...all of which is mere physical damage that can be easily repaired....its the reaction of tyrannical government system to such an event.

[Nominal "protection of the state" is what allowed Hitler to use the Reichstag fire to thoroughly discredit his political opposition. It was the German communists -not Hitler's own national socialists- who had attacked the Reichstag. Thus, according to the logic Hitler had been presenting to the public long before the fire, the communists had proven themselves enemies of the German State by attacking a symbol of Germany: the Reichstag. And so by default, the communists had placed their opponents the Nazis in the role of Germany's protector]

Wow that sounds a lot like what the American Liberals have been doing since Jan. 6th.

Framing themselves as "protectors of the American State"....using the event as an excuse to try and crush their domestic opposition.


https://time.com/6137403/january-6th-political-violence/

The "Reichstag Fire' analogy applies not to what the rioters did on J6, but how the Dems reacted to the riot.

Dems are using the J6 riot as a justification to deprive their political opponents of First Amendment liberties.




Exactly,

And using the event to solidify their relationship with the unaccountable intelligence apparatus and solidify their power as a political party.
william
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orange privilege.

- kkm

{ sipping coffee }
arbyscoin - the only crypto you can eat.
Wrecks Quan Dough
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william said:

orange privilege.

- kkm

{ sipping coffee }
curtpenn
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TexasScientist said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

TexasScientist said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

TexasScientist said:

Wrecks Quan Dough said:

TexasScientist said:

In 1923, a malignant narcissist attempted to seize governmental power in a failed coup, was imprisoned with a sentence of five years. In prison he wrote his autobiography. After his early release in 1924, backed by conservative leaders, we know the rest of the story. In 2020, a malignant narcissist attempted to seize governmental power in a failed coup, …. to be determined.
Oh, please. You still lose the argument by referring to Hitler even if you don't use the name "Hitler."


There are some parallels, but Biden is much more like Mussolini.
FIFY.
As bad as he is, he's not a malignant narcissist like Trump and Mussolini.


NSIS.

Biden is the most fascist president we have elected.
Biden is a socialist. Trump has autocratic fascist tendencies.


Distinction without a difference. The left is MarxoFascist to the core.
TexasScientist
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Doc Holliday said:

TexasScientist said:

Doc Holliday said:

TexasScientist said:

Doc Holliday said:

Do you guys understand what the ramifications of throwing Trump in prison are?
A chance at preserving our democracy, if we can elect a republican who has character and integrity.

Quote:

We need to elect a Republican who can destroy the corruption within the system. The level of corruption is astronomical.


If your idea of a good president is likeability then you have the entire premise wrong.

Also, you're a woke leftist larping as a centrist. If Trump supporters were murdered by the millions it would make you happy.
Quote:

We need to elect a Republican who can destroy the corruption within the system. The level of corruption is astronomical.
Ok, I can agree with that. Trump is not that person. He is part of the corruption in a whole separate dimension to himself.
Quote:

If your idea of a good president is likeability then you have the entire premise wrong.
Being likable isn't a criteria. Honesty, integrity, and character are first, Constitution and country over politics second, then conservative principles.
Quote:

Also, you're a woke leftist larping as a centrist. If Trump supporters were murdered by the millions it would make you happy.
You may want to consider whether directing ad hominem personal attacks, and making outlandish provocative comments to bolster your psyche reveals something about your character.
I don't think you're educated on how DC truly works and how bad things actually are.

The posts you make on this site lead me to believe that you support post modern and leftist radicalism. Your hatred for Trump leads me to believe that you think his supporters are subhuman.
Quote:

I don't think you're educated on how DC truly works and how bad things actually are.

I spent twelve years working and interacting with government in DC. I understand how it works. Well healed lobbyists and the industries they represent have a stranglehold on government at the tip of the iceberg.But there are also well meaning, dedicated government employees whose primary interest is in serving our country. As bad as it is, we're still in a democracy, that has and is functioning overall at a high and successful level. There are things that need to change, but that change doesn't have to come at the cost of disrespecting, demonizing, dehumanizing, and disrespting those we disagree with, in foreign or domestic policy. This is a diverse country. For all of its flaws, there is nothing out there better with which to replace it, I can garauntee it. You won't like what we get in its place. We have to work within this brilliantly designed system, with all of its flaws, to make it better, without destroying it in the process. There is no acceptable alternative.

Quote:

The posts you make on this site lead me to believe that you support post modern and leftist radicalism. Your hatred for Trump leads me to believe that you think his supporters are subhuman.
Maybe my posts have been strongly worded at times, but I don't think I have indicated, and I certainly don't believe his supporters are subhuman. I think they have been duped and played. I have friends and family who have supported him. I dislike Trump, because he treats his opponents as subhuman, he puts himself ahead of the country, he lies to his supporters and the American public, there are no bounds to what he is willing or capable of doing. In a second presidency, he will be emboldened, surrounded by yes men, with no restraints to act on his worse impulses, and autocratic tendencies. He has no sense of history, nor appreciation of America's role in the post WWII order. He doesn't understand the economy. Everything is transactional for him, and about himself. The fact that he is a malignant narcissist makes him a threat to America and democracy. Are there some things he did that I like, yes of course.

He recklessly squandered the opportunity to be a great president. Trump was not indicted for us, and he has no one to blame but himself.
Guy Noir
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And Trump didn't do one thing to balance the budget while he was in office. He is definitely not a fiscal conservative.
Wrecks Quan Dough
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Guy Noir said:

And Trump didn't do one thing to balance the budget while he was in office. He is definitely not a fiscal conservative.
He was a big cheerleader of the Federal Spend-a-palooza.
FLBear5630
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TexasScientist said:

Doc Holliday said:

TexasScientist said:

Doc Holliday said:

TexasScientist said:

Doc Holliday said:

Do you guys understand what the ramifications of throwing Trump in prison are?
A chance at preserving our democracy, if we can elect a republican who has character and integrity.

Quote:

We need to elect a Republican who can destroy the corruption within the system. The level of corruption is astronomical.


If your idea of a good president is likeability then you have the entire premise wrong.

Also, you're a woke leftist larping as a centrist. If Trump supporters were murdered by the millions it would make you happy.
Quote:

We need to elect a Republican who can destroy the corruption within the system. The level of corruption is astronomical.
Ok, I can agree with that. Trump is not that person. He is part of the corruption in a whole separate dimension to himself.
Quote:

If your idea of a good president is likeability then you have the entire premise wrong.
Being likable isn't a criteria. Honesty, integrity, and character are first, Constitution and country over politics second, then conservative principles.
Quote:

Also, you're a woke leftist larping as a centrist. If Trump supporters were murdered by the millions it would make you happy.
You may want to consider whether directing ad hominem personal attacks, and making outlandish provocative comments to bolster your psyche reveals something about your character.
I don't think you're educated on how DC truly works and how bad things actually are.

The posts you make on this site lead me to believe that you support post modern and leftist radicalism. Your hatred for Trump leads me to believe that you think his supporters are subhuman.
Quote:

I don't think you're educated on how DC truly works and how bad things actually are.

I spent twelve years working and interacting with government in DC. I understand how it works. Well healed lobbyists and the industries they represent have a stranglehold on government at the tip of the iceberg.But there are also well meaning, dedicated government employees whose primary interest is in serving our country. As bad as it is, we're still in a democracy, that has and is functioning overall at a high and successful level. There are things that need to change, but that change doesn't have to come at the cost of disrespecting, demonizing, dehumanizing, and disrespting those we disagree with, in foreign or domestic policy. This is a diverse country. For all of its flaws, there is nothing out there better with which to replace it, I can garauntee it. You won't like what we get in its place. We have to work within this brilliantly designed system, with all of its flaws, to make it better, without destroying it in the process. There is no acceptable alternative.

Quote:

The posts you make on this site lead me to believe that you support post modern and leftist radicalism. Your hatred for Trump leads me to believe that you think his supporters are subhuman.
Maybe my posts have been strongly worded at times, but I don't think I have indicated, and I certainly don't believe his supporters are subhuman. I think they have been duped and played. I have friends and family who have supported him. I dislike Trump, because he treats his opponents as subhuman, he puts himself ahead of the country, he lies to his supporters and the American public, there are no bounds to what he is willing or capable of doing. In a second presidency, he will be emboldened, surrounded by yes men, with no restraints to act on his worse impulses, and autocratic tendencies. He has no sense of history, nor appreciation of America's role in the post WWII order. He doesn't understand the economy. Everything is transactional for him, and about himself. The fact that he is a malignant narcissist makes him a threat to America and democracy. Are there some things he did that I like, yes of course.

He recklessly squandered the opportunity to be a great president. Trump was not indicted for us, and he has no one to blame but himself.

Thank you! The basic Federal employee does their jobs in their areas of expertise well. They are not the problem. Elected officials pushing their agendas are a much bigger problem than the rank and file Fed.

Trump had some good policies, he came in looking to cut deals (which is how Government moves forward), and he tried to use common sense. Then the wheels came off and he became a caricature of himself. After 2020 election he became a caricature of himself on ego steroids! He brought most of this on himself. He jumped when the Dems clapped like a trained chicken. He still is. They get exactly the reaction they want every time...
Doc Holliday
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TexasScientist said:

Doc Holliday said:

TexasScientist said:

Doc Holliday said:

TexasScientist said:

Doc Holliday said:

Do you guys understand what the ramifications of throwing Trump in prison are?
A chance at preserving our democracy, if we can elect a republican who has character and integrity.

Quote:

We need to elect a Republican who can destroy the corruption within the system. The level of corruption is astronomical.


If your idea of a good president is likeability then you have the entire premise wrong.

Also, you're a woke leftist larping as a centrist. If Trump supporters were murdered by the millions it would make you happy.
Quote:

We need to elect a Republican who can destroy the corruption within the system. The level of corruption is astronomical.
Ok, I can agree with that. Trump is not that person. He is part of the corruption in a whole separate dimension to himself.
Quote:

If your idea of a good president is likeability then you have the entire premise wrong.
Being likable isn't a criteria. Honesty, integrity, and character are first, Constitution and country over politics second, then conservative principles.
Quote:

Also, you're a woke leftist larping as a centrist. If Trump supporters were murdered by the millions it would make you happy.
You may want to consider whether directing ad hominem personal attacks, and making outlandish provocative comments to bolster your psyche reveals something about your character.
I don't think you're educated on how DC truly works and how bad things actually are.

The posts you make on this site lead me to believe that you support post modern and leftist radicalism. Your hatred for Trump leads me to believe that you think his supporters are subhuman.
Quote:

I don't think you're educated on how DC truly works and how bad things actually are.

I spent twelve years working and interacting with government in DC. I understand how it works. Well healed lobbyists and the industries they represent have a stranglehold on government at the tip of the iceberg.But there are also well meaning, dedicated government employees whose primary interest is in serving our country. As bad as it is, we're still in a democracy, that has and is functioning overall at a high and successful level. There are things that need to change, but that change doesn't have to come at the cost of disrespecting, demonizing, dehumanizing, and disrespting those we disagree with, in foreign or domestic policy. This is a diverse country. For all of its flaws, there is nothing out there better with which to replace it, I can garauntee it. You won't like what we get in its place. We have to work within this brilliantly designed system, with all of its flaws, to make it better, without destroying it in the process. There is no acceptable alternative.

Quote:

The posts you make on this site lead me to believe that you support post modern and leftist radicalism. Your hatred for Trump leads me to believe that you think his supporters are subhuman.
Maybe my posts have been strongly worded at times, but I don't think I have indicated, and I certainly don't believe his supporters are subhuman. I think they have been duped and played. I have friends and family who have supported him. I dislike Trump, because he treats his opponents as subhuman, he puts himself ahead of the country, he lies to his supporters and the American public, there are no bounds to what he is willing or capable of doing. In a second presidency, he will be emboldened, surrounded by yes men, with no restraints to act on his worse impulses, and autocratic tendencies. He has no sense of history, nor appreciation of America's role in the post WWII order. He doesn't understand the economy. Everything is transactional for him, and about himself. The fact that he is a malignant narcissist makes him a threat to America and democracy. Are there some things he did that I like, yes of course.

He recklessly squandered the opportunity to be a great president. Trump was not indicted for us, and he has no one to blame but himself.

There is nothing better for the foreseeable future, but we're absolutely becoming tyrannical. We could be described as a quasi kleptocracy and we have a massive wealth gap to prove it.

The highest levels of bureaucracies and federal departments are a major problem and they tell their workers to do the bidding of the elected class which is beholden to banks and giant corporations. The FDA for example is beholden to big pharma, they do their bidding through regulation and red tape designed specifically to uphold the current price structure.

I think that's downright evil. Its theft on the American public and has killed thousands of people who can't afford medicine.

You can take virtually every single government department and it's structured in this manner and to achieve the same goal of using tax dollars to achieve profit for the elite.

Your Joe Biden's, Obama's, Bush etc. type of presidents and politicians speak well and come across as rational...but their actions and the policies they push through are really what matters and they do great harm to our country. The majority of American's don't recognize this and millions actively defend it out of ignorance.

I've seen you promote or accept critical theories and new age gender ideology...but are you aware that it's promotion is almost entirely fabricated out of ESG money since 2009?

I'm not a Trump guy, but there's got to be a point where you have to recognize that the bread and butter politicians we've had for decades are FAR WORSE and more damaging than 4 years of Trump.

If Trump goes to jail, the message that sends whether intentionally or not is that the elite are in charge and if you try to elect someone who really wants to change the system...the same outcome will happen. It's making people feel hopeless and fearful, when people feel that way they act irrationally and dangerously.
Guy Noir
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There has to be someone, other than Trump, that can be the savior of the country. Trump is viewed as a near-dictator to me because he attempted to disrupt the election and transfer of power in 2020. That is how dictatorships start.

If Trump goes to jail, it is because he crossed a line in his abuse of power.
Frank Galvin
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The level of certitude people express in this thread is astounding. Most see it as simple, regardless of which side they root for. I see an incredibly delicate and complex issue.

On the one hand you have the current executive, through the DOJ, taking action to muzzle and jail his chief opponent. That is unprecedented and terrifying.

On the other hand, Trump took dead aim at destroying the core tenet of our republic. We are a government of laws, not men. The chief law is the Constitution. Its design is to allow the people to (indirectly) control their government. That concept is what gave the average American the same dignity as the King of England; it is the reason we exist.

As far as presidential elections are concerned, it is state legislatures that select the electors. What the Trump apologists tend to overlook is that Trump was trying to subvert the process by replacing electors selected by GOP legislatures well populated by his own fanboys.

File all the lawsuits you want to investigate the vote, try to convince a legislature not to follow the will of its own people, or try to convince electors to vote their conscience rather than follow the popular vote. Any of those steps has a constitutional basis. Wholesale replacement of a slate of electors selected by a state legislature to achieve a political result has zero legal basis. It is saying the constitution does not matter.

That is at least as terrifying as the idea of prosecuting your political opponent.

Maybe Trump had a right to say and do what he did. But it was a grotesque display and those who won't condemn it are whistling by the graveyard.
Doc Holliday
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Guy Noir said:

There has to be someone, other than Trump, that can be the savior of the country. Trump is viewed as a near-dictator to me because he attempted to disrupt the election and transfer of power in 2020. That is how dictatorships start.

If Trump goes to jail, it is because he crossed a line in his abuse of power.
If Trump goes to jail it will make trust in elections worse...much worse than anything you think Trump did.
Guy Noir
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And if the Trump behavior is not prosecuted to the extent of the law, then the ensuing Presidents will know they can ignore constitutional law for future elections.
HuMcK
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Your post is a weird one. You start out by acting like Biden is somehow improperly persecuting Trump and "muzzling" him (lol), but then the rest of the post is explaining how Trump broke the law by blatantly attacking core tenets of our way of life...

Pick one, because they are mutually exclusive: he's either being unjustly prosecuted, or he broke the law and is facing accountability for it.
Frank Galvin
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HuMcK said:

Your post is a weird one. You start out by acting like Biden is somehow improperly persecuting Trump and "muzzling" him (lol), but then the rest of the post is explaining how Trump broke the law by blatantly attacking core tenets of our way of life...

Pick one, because they are mutually exclusive: he's either being unjustly prosecuted, or he broke the law and is facing accountability for it.


You missed the point. I started by saying I was troubled by the certitude of both sides, neither can see the danger in the agenda they pursue.

Then I described those dangers. If you are for prosecuting Trump you should be cognizant of the damage that can do and work to mitigate that damage. If you do not believe Trump broke the law or should escape prosecution for some other reason, you should be aware of the danger his path suggests and work to avoid a repeat.
Harrison Bergeron
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Guy Noir said:

There has to be someone, other than Trump, that can be the savior of the country. Trump is viewed as a near-dictator to me because he attempted to disrupt the election and transfer of power in 2020. That is how dictatorships start.

If Trump goes to jail, it is because he crossed a line in his abuse of power.
So he's Hillary Clinton?

Everything Trump has every been accused of some regressive authoritarian previously did.

What actually is more authoritarian is prosecuting free speech and political opponents. Enjoy your bananas.
Harrison Bergeron
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curtpenn said:

TexasScientist said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

TexasScientist said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

TexasScientist said:

Wrecks Quan Dough said:

TexasScientist said:

In 1923, a malignant narcissist attempted to seize governmental power in a failed coup, was imprisoned with a sentence of five years. In prison he wrote his autobiography. After his early release in 1924, backed by conservative leaders, we know the rest of the story. In 2020, a malignant narcissist attempted to seize governmental power in a failed coup, …. to be determined.
Oh, please. You still lose the argument by referring to Hitler even if you don't use the name "Hitler."


There are some parallels, but Biden is much more like Mussolini.
FIFY.
As bad as he is, he's not a malignant narcissist like Trump and Mussolini.


NSIS.

Biden is the most fascist president we have elected.
Biden is a socialist. Trump has autocratic fascist tendencies.
Distinction without a difference. The left is MarxoFascist to the core.
I disagree. Biden is much more of a fascist than a socialist. But regardless he is extremely authoritarian.
Harrison Bergeron
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Guy Noir said:

And Trump didn't do one thing to balance the budget while he was in office. He is definitely not a fiscal conservative.
No ***** He's a 80s-90s Democrat.
Guy Noir
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Harrison Bergeron said:

Guy Noir said:

There has to be someone, other than Trump, that can be the savior of the country. Trump is viewed as a near-dictator to me because he attempted to disrupt the election and transfer of power in 2020. That is how dictatorships start.

If Trump goes to jail, it is because he crossed a line in his abuse of power.
So he's Hillary Clinton?

Everything Trump has every been accused of some regressive authoritarian previously did.

What actually is more authoritarian is prosecuting free speech and political opponents. Enjoy your bananas.


We cannot do anything about the past, but if we enforce the law now, then it is possible to deter future violations.
Wrecks Quan Dough
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Guy Noir said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Guy Noir said:

There has to be someone, other than Trump, that can be the savior of the country. Trump is viewed as a near-dictator to me because he attempted to disrupt the election and transfer of power in 2020. That is how dictatorships start.

If Trump goes to jail, it is because he crossed a line in his abuse of power.
So he's Hillary Clinton?

Everything Trump has every been accused of some regressive authoritarian previously did.

What actually is more authoritarian is prosecuting free speech and political opponents. Enjoy your bananas.


We cannot do anything about the past, but if we enforce the law now, then it is possible to deter future violations.


What law are we enforcing? The one against speech not liked by the Chief Executive?
4th and Inches
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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

Guy Noir said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Guy Noir said:

There has to be someone, other than Trump, that can be the savior of the country. Trump is viewed as a near-dictator to me because he attempted to disrupt the election and transfer of power in 2020. That is how dictatorships start.

If Trump goes to jail, it is because he crossed a line in his abuse of power.
So he's Hillary Clinton?

Everything Trump has every been accused of some regressive authoritarian previously did.

What actually is more authoritarian is prosecuting free speech and political opponents. Enjoy your bananas.


We cannot do anything about the past, but if we enforce the law now, then it is possible to deter future violations.


What law are we enforcing? The one against speech not liked by the Chief Executive?
I am hoping for enforcement of the ones like the state legislatures dictate election law..
“The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom.”

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Redbrickbear
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Wrecks Quan Dough
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The Revolution is on. Hope you enjoyed your freedoms. What you let slip away during scary virus will not be recovered in your life times.
Osodecentx
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This exposes the 'fake elector scheme'. Trump and lawyers knew it was wrong, but did it anyway.

Previously Secret Memo Laid Out Strategy for Trump to Overturn Biden's Win


A lawyer allied with President Donald J. Trump first laid out a plot to use false slates of electors to subvert the 2020 election in a previously unknown internal campaign memo that prosecutors are portraying as a crucial link in how the Trump team's efforts evolved into a criminal conspiracy.

The existence of the Dec. 6, 2020, memo came to light in last week's indictment of Mr. Trump, though its details remained unclear. But a copy obtained by The New York Times shows for the first time that the lawyer, Kenneth Chesebro, acknowledged from the start that he was proposing "a bold, controversial strategy" that the Supreme Court "likely" would reject in the end.
But even if the plan did not ultimately pass legal muster at the highest level, Mr. Chesebro argued that it would achieve two goals. It would focus attention on claims of voter fraud and "buy the Trump campaign more time to win litigation that would deprive Biden of electoral votes and/or add to Trump's column."
The memo had been a missing piece in the public record of how Mr. Trump's allies developed their strategy to overturn Mr. Biden's victory. In mid-December, the false Trump electors could go through the motions of voting as if they had the authority to do so. Then, on Jan. 6, 2021, Vice President Mike Pence could unilaterally count those slates of votes, rather than the official and certified ones for Joseph R. Biden Jr.
Three days later, Mr. Chesebro drew up specific instructions to create fraudulent electors in multiple states in another memo whose existence, along with the one in November, was first reported by The Times last year. The House committee investigating the Jan. 6 riot also cited them in its December report, but it apparently did not learn of the Dec. 6 memo.
"I believe that what can be achieved on Jan. 6 is not simply to keep Biden below 270 electoral votes," Mr. Chesebro wrote in the newly disclosed memo. "It seems feasible that the vote count can be conducted so that at no point will Trump be behind in the electoral vote count unless and until Biden can obtain a favorable decision from the Supreme Court upholding the Electoral Count Act as constitutional, or otherwise recognizing the power of Congress (and not the president of the Senate) to count the votes."

The false electors scheme was perhaps the most sprawling of Mr. Trump's various efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. It involved lawyers working on his campaign's behalf across seven states, dozens of electors willing to claim that Mr. Trump not Mr. Biden had won their states, and open resistance from some of those potential electors that the plan could be illegal or even "appear treasonous." In the end, it became the cornerstone of the indictment against Mr. Trump.
Prosecutors are still hearing evidence related to the investigation, even after charges were leveled against Mr. Trump, according to people familiar with the matter. The House committee last year released emails its investigators obtained showing that Mr. Chesebro had sent copies of the two previously reported memos, one from Nov. 18 and another from Dec. 9, to allies in the states working on the fake electors plan.
But he did not attach his Dec. 6 memo to those messages, which laid out a more audacious idea: having Mr. Pence take "the position that it is his constitutional power and duty, alone, as president of the Senate, to both open and count the votes." That is, he could resolve the dispute over which slate was valid by counting the alternate electors for Mr. Trump even if Mr. Biden remained the certified winner of their states.
According to the indictment, Mr. Giuliani, who is referred to as Co-Conspirator 1, spoke with someone identified only as Co-Conspirator 6 about finding lawyers to help with the effort in seven states. An email reviewed by The Times suggests that particular conspirator could be Boris Epshteyn, a campaign strategic adviser for the Trump campaign who was paid for political consulting. That day, Mr. Epshteyn sent Mr. Giuliani an email recommending lawyers in those seven states.
The Dec. 6 memo dovetails with that approach. Mr. Chesebro wrote that Mr. Pence could count purported Trump electors from a state as long as there was a lawsuit pending challenging Mr. Biden's declared victory there. But he also proposed telling the public that the Trump electors were meeting on Dec. 14 merely as a precaution in case "the courts (or state legislatures) were to later conclude that Trump actually won the state."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/08/us/politics/trump-indictment-fake-electors-memo.html?unlocked_article_code=q863CXIGBmZKgknue26dwd_Etf2T1pV14p3LCmRWgxG2dL3sBOyDnoRErLLb8a5QNfYIkQ26R1aUi0a_x00jNH1zZ2NTKp5w7uy2fg9S23-YdsBAxIgvBoKvCdWiicGRNxvuGwg9JiygRvLa--4X2ftpqh9otmr425gNxP6b-47NmX2GN-N7o6UNRvgai_ZG4FENxkKTVt8hq-nMfkK5sM9BhnNH9gHa9ot_Us0CP9gy1_HwIWANKxHiOmr2s4NWVhKcNTkBnLgUFkGyjI9EjWxk_urvda-NWlWNONo-ScJzgx3WgCKOQrxs_P4QwsrHr2-K7IFUX3kRIR9MyI_kJc0ZMyibcTaYCVwFXh7UT-jBtw&smid=url-share

Oldbear83
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When you depend on the NY Times to sell your argument, you don't really have a good argument.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Whiskey Pete
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Guy Noir said:

There has to be someone, other than Trump, that can be the savior of the country. Trump is viewed as a near-dictator to me because he attempted to disrupt the election and transfer of power in 2020. That is how dictatorships start.

If Trump goes to jail, it is because he crossed a line in his abuse of power.
I'm more concerned about a sitting president (Obama) spying on a candidate of an opposing party, an ex-Secretary of State and current candidate paying to have evidence created out of thin air in trying to implicate their competition in some collusion hoax, the FBI pressuring social media to censor Americans and sqush legit news stories ahead of voting day. Much more concerned about the actions of our gov't than a guy demanding that the a process be paused so allegations of election tampering and interference can be properly investigated and reported.

Aove all that, I'm much more concerned about people in federal gov't targeting conservatives for their speech, leaving the southern border wide open where criminals and fentanyl are flowing freely in the USA, parent's being labeled as terrorists for being concerned with what their children are being taught in public schools, etc...



Harrison Bergeron
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Guy Noir said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Guy Noir said:

There has to be someone, other than Trump, that can be the savior of the country. Trump is viewed as a near-dictator to me because he attempted to disrupt the election and transfer of power in 2020. That is how dictatorships start.

If Trump goes to jail, it is because he crossed a line in his abuse of power.
So he's Hillary Clinton?

Everything Trump has every been accused of some regressive authoritarian previously did.

What actually is more authoritarian is prosecuting free speech and political opponents. Enjoy your bananas.


We cannot do anything about the past, but if we enforce the law now, then it is possible to deter future violations.
.

Prosecute Clinton now.Then i'll have less beef. Still anti-Constitution but at least consistent.

would you support charging Clinton with same indictment plus the treason for giving classified documents to foreign governments?
Harrison Bergeron
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Redbrickbear said:




The people put the fascists in power. they are winning.
Doc Holliday
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Harrison Bergeron said:

Redbrickbear said:




The people put the fascists in power. they are winning.
Redbrickbear
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Harrison Bergeron
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Redbrickbear said:


We have two tiers of justice. And they're not even hiding the ball.
4th and Inches
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Doc Holliday said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

Redbrickbear said:




The people put the fascists in power. they are winning.

“The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom.”

Jon Stewart
riflebear
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Incredible but not surprising.

Harrison Bergeron
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Question no one having a Trumpgasm will answer:
1 Should Hillary Clinton be prosecuted now under the same charges for doing the same thing.
2. Should Stacy Abrams be prosecuted for the same charges?
 
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