whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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"Trump is on trial for plotting to overthrow the 2020 election"

That's the charge. The facts don't support it.

What Trump did was raise a stink about the election, just as Clinton did in 2016 and Kerry did in 2004 and Gore did in 2000. Gore is the outlier because once the SCOTUS ruled against him, he limited his complaints to public appearances between 2001 and 2004.

Trump believed the election was stolen. Even if you think he is wrong about that, believing the election was stolen is not criminal.

And Trump did not destroy emails, did not order anyone to lie for him, did not have classified documents in his garage before he was even President.

The worst charge that can be made to stick to Trump is that he did not return documents when an Archives drone demanded them. And the Presidential Records Act can apply to that, not the freaking Espionage Act.

This is a garbage set of indictments, no matter your politics. And the public knows it, which is why Trump is riding high in the polls.

If you want sanity returned to the election cycle, find Trump not guilty then start in discussing the issues and what policies each candidate brings to the table. That's how you find the best candidate and move on.

Pretending there is a shred of reason to play along with Biden's DOJ and send Trump to prison, is obscene and cannot help but lead to disaster.

---

I agree with this for the most part, except for the bolded part. The documents indictment has teeth, and Trump is in some real danger there. Every other charge is indeed garbage. However, the public doesn't know it. Both the govt. and the MSM have done a fantastic job of making many Americans believe that these are real crimes.

As for Trump's popularity, it may remain high among Repubs, but it's sitting around 37% among the general populace, give or take a couple of points.

Trump is popular only among Republicans. He is very unpopular outside of that demographic.

---

....and Biden is only popular among Democrats, and very unpopular outside of that demographic.....

---

he is not popular among Dems unless you put him against a GOP canidate in polling.. suddenly he is decent.

When Dems are asked directly, they do not favor re-election of Joe Biden by a strong margin and would like an alternative Dem to vote for..

whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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When you depend on the NY Times to sell your argument, you don't really have a good argument.

---

exactly. Article describes completely lawful efforts to engage in politics and win an election, to include legal theory to support such.

People file lawsuits all the time knowing full well they are not likely to win...... Sometimes the objective is legal. Sometimes it is political. Sometimes it is both. And losing does not one a criminal make.

---

Disagree with you on this one. He told his VP, in his chain of command, to accept alternate electors against legal counsel. Pence's Attorneys and White House Counsel said it was not legal. Yet, Trump and his surrogates pushed on at multiple levels after the election was over. That is beyond politics, that is downright coup area.
He also had legal advice that it was a viable plan.... And Pence went along with it until the last minute.

Since with Trump we all have to believe that he is speaking metaphorically, I find it more likely he found the power of being US President more enticing than money and was willing to do ANYTHING to keep it. That to me is more probable than he was speaking metaphorically, playing master-level political strategy.

That is not even going into the Georgia "find me votes" comments and strong-arming.
Noting illegal about pointing out that a more thorough adjudication of mail-in votes would possibly/likely change the outcome. Remember, the margins were, statistically speaking, razor thin. Would have been very easy to find 12k questionable ballots worthy of disqualification. See Florida 2000 and hanging chads for how to execute the program.

The guy is a stupid, loose cannon and gets what he deserves. He is on tape saying "find me 11k votes". Same with the Ukraine impeachment quid pro quo in exchange for investigating Biden. The guy continued to break the law and rely on everyone to believe he is speaking metaphorically. Well, it bit him here. Because words matter and he is dead to rights when taking at the letter of what he says to overturn an election he knew he lost.
False dilemma. Speaking plain truth may be inconvenient, but it is still truth. We now know conclusively that Biden got rich off of bribes from Ukraine and that Trump's phone call to Ukraine on the matter showed good stewardship of US taxpayer dollars.

---

Let me say the inconvenient part cleary: it is not illegal to try to use legal procedures to overturn an election you know/suspect you actually lost. Gore literally did that in Florida in 2020. He kept counting Democrat counties only, knowing that the statistical certainty that any errors would fall in his favor might close the gap. And it would have if SCOTUS hadn't stepped in and stopped the re-counting (harvesting of ballot errors). Dems knew what they were doing.

Gore was stopped the same way Trump was stopped = by checks and balances. The system worked.

Democrats understand very clearly that the election isn't won until you take the oath of office. Challenging the results, to including using legal theories that have never before been tried, is not insurrection. It's liberty. You have the right to keep fighting until your opponent says "so help me God."

---

Whoa. This was not a re-count of one State with a 200 vote difference. Trump wanted Pence to throw out legally submitted State electors in favor of alternates that favored him. The two are not in the same galaxy!

Razor thin? Biden had over 300 electors! Trump needed to "find" votes in multiple state. This was not a Trump/Gore.

False dilemma? You can't just blurt out statements like fine me 11k votes OR investigate Joe Biden and you will receive aid! On tape. You can poo-poo it as a non-issue, but he set himself up for the impeachment and his comments are why he is going to be indicted in GA. He wonders why he is in Court!!! He is a stupid, loose cannon. You say it is OK to play politics and try anything to win an election and then get butt-hurt when Trump is tried for his own words!

---

a 2500 vote difference in FL vs a 11k vote difference in GA. (and comparable margins in other states). That is not a different universe. In FL 2000, there were two slates of FL electors standing ready to go until SCOTUS issued its final ruling WEEKS after the general election concluded. Highly analogous. and nobody alleged insurrection then.

There is law for process on post-election certification (or not) of every elected official. In close elections, the losing party attempts to stop certification, and/or to reverse certification. Nothing remarkable about any of that. Happens every election. What's unique about electors is that there actually are TWO sets of electors elected on the ballot. So it's not like Trump conjured this all up (which is what Dems are trying to portray). He was contesting the election results the way election results are contested. Democrats just didn't like it, and were highly defensive because they had much to be defensive about.

A thorough recounting of GA mail-in votes from Fulton Co (a selective recount ala what Gore demanded in 2000) would have reversed the results of the GA election.....a near mathematical certainty. Throwing out ballots with obvious errors would have had the effect of removing Biden votes at a rate exceeding 4-1. But Ga officials refused to do it. Trump was right to be livid with anger.

Dude. You are not thinking clearly on this point.....

---

Fulton conducted hand and machine recounts.

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They did not look at signatures on mail in ballots......

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The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

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LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

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If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

---

In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

---

GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Guy Noir said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Guy Noir said:

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Trump lost the 2020 election. Thus he is a loser. The Republicans need to put forth a candidate that is a winner.

It was never proven in court that the election was rigged.

---

Former president Donald Trump faces a total of 91 charges across four criminal cases. They include 44 federal charges and 47 state charges, all of them felonies. Trump has denied wrongdoing in each case.

---

91 criminal charges is another good reason to drop Trump from the Republican ticket for 2024.

---

soon yall will catch on this is the way the GOP sheds Trump off the ballot. The Dems want him on the ballot and looking worse than his Dem opponent in the media etc..

---

Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

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All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Guy Noir said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Guy Noir said:

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Trump lost the 2020 election. Thus he is a loser. The Republicans need to put forth a candidate that is a winner.

It was never proven in court that the election was rigged.

---

Former president Donald Trump faces a total of 91 charges across four criminal cases. They include 44 federal charges and 47 state charges, all of them felonies. Trump has denied wrongdoing in each case.

---

91 criminal charges is another good reason to drop Trump from the Republican ticket for 2024.

---

soon yall will catch on this is the way the GOP sheds Trump off the ballot. The Dems want him on the ballot and looking worse than his Dem opponent in the media etc..

---

Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Every day is a great day to be against communists even if they appropriate the word "woke" to describe themselves. That said, Ramaswamy overtook DeSantis running on conservative principles more than an anti woke agenda. So, you are probably right that is better to be for conservative ideals rather than primarily anti woke.

sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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When you depend on the NY Times to sell your argument, you don't really have a good argument.

---

exactly. Article describes completely lawful efforts to engage in politics and win an election, to include legal theory to support such.

People file lawsuits all the time knowing full well they are not likely to win...... Sometimes the objective is legal. Sometimes it is political. Sometimes it is both. And losing does not one a criminal make.

---

Disagree with you on this one. He told his VP, in his chain of command, to accept alternate electors against legal counsel. Pence's Attorneys and White House Counsel said it was not legal. Yet, Trump and his surrogates pushed on at multiple levels after the election was over. That is beyond politics, that is downright coup area.
He also had legal advice that it was a viable plan.... And Pence went along with it until the last minute.

Since with Trump we all have to believe that he is speaking metaphorically, I find it more likely he found the power of being US President more enticing than money and was willing to do ANYTHING to keep it. That to me is more probable than he was speaking metaphorically, playing master-level political strategy.

That is not even going into the Georgia "find me votes" comments and strong-arming.
Noting illegal about pointing out that a more thorough adjudication of mail-in votes would possibly/likely change the outcome. Remember, the margins were, statistically speaking, razor thin. Would have been very easy to find 12k questionable ballots worthy of disqualification. See Florida 2000 and hanging chads for how to execute the program.

The guy is a stupid, loose cannon and gets what he deserves. He is on tape saying "find me 11k votes". Same with the Ukraine impeachment quid pro quo in exchange for investigating Biden. The guy continued to break the law and rely on everyone to believe he is speaking metaphorically. Well, it bit him here. Because words matter and he is dead to rights when taking at the letter of what he says to overturn an election he knew he lost.
False dilemma. Speaking plain truth may be inconvenient, but it is still truth. We now know conclusively that Biden got rich off of bribes from Ukraine and that Trump's phone call to Ukraine on the matter showed good stewardship of US taxpayer dollars.

---

Let me say the inconvenient part cleary: it is not illegal to try to use legal procedures to overturn an election you know/suspect you actually lost. Gore literally did that in Florida in 2020. He kept counting Democrat counties only, knowing that the statistical certainty that any errors would fall in his favor might close the gap. And it would have if SCOTUS hadn't stepped in and stopped the re-counting (harvesting of ballot errors). Dems knew what they were doing.

Gore was stopped the same way Trump was stopped = by checks and balances. The system worked.

Democrats understand very clearly that the election isn't won until you take the oath of office. Challenging the results, to including using legal theories that have never before been tried, is not insurrection. It's liberty. You have the right to keep fighting until your opponent says "so help me God."

---

Whoa. This was not a re-count of one State with a 200 vote difference. Trump wanted Pence to throw out legally submitted State electors in favor of alternates that favored him. The two are not in the same galaxy!

Razor thin? Biden had over 300 electors! Trump needed to "find" votes in multiple state. This was not a Trump/Gore.

False dilemma? You can't just blurt out statements like fine me 11k votes OR investigate Joe Biden and you will receive aid! On tape. You can poo-poo it as a non-issue, but he set himself up for the impeachment and his comments are why he is going to be indicted in GA. He wonders why he is in Court!!! He is a stupid, loose cannon. You say it is OK to play politics and try anything to win an election and then get butt-hurt when Trump is tried for his own words!

---

a 2500 vote difference in FL vs a 11k vote difference in GA. (and comparable margins in other states). That is not a different universe. In FL 2000, there were two slates of FL electors standing ready to go until SCOTUS issued its final ruling WEEKS after the general election concluded. Highly analogous. and nobody alleged insurrection then.

There is law for process on post-election certification (or not) of every elected official. In close elections, the losing party attempts to stop certification, and/or to reverse certification. Nothing remarkable about any of that. Happens every election. What's unique about electors is that there actually are TWO sets of electors elected on the ballot. So it's not like Trump conjured this all up (which is what Dems are trying to portray). He was contesting the election results the way election results are contested. Democrats just didn't like it, and were highly defensive because they had much to be defensive about.

A thorough recounting of GA mail-in votes from Fulton Co (a selective recount ala what Gore demanded in 2000) would have reversed the results of the GA election.....a near mathematical certainty. Throwing out ballots with obvious errors would have had the effect of removing Biden votes at a rate exceeding 4-1. But Ga officials refused to do it. Trump was right to be livid with anger.

Dude. You are not thinking clearly on this point.....

---

Fulton conducted hand and machine recounts.

---

They did not look at signatures on mail in ballots......

---

The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

---

LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

---

If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

---

In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

---

GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

---

link with details of the audit procedures used?

Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wrecks Quan Dough said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Guy Noir said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Guy Noir said:

---

Trump lost the 2020 election. Thus he is a loser. The Republicans need to put forth a candidate that is a winner.

It was never proven in court that the election was rigged.

---

Former president Donald Trump faces a total of 91 charges across four criminal cases. They include 44 federal charges and 47 state charges, all of them felonies. Trump has denied wrongdoing in each case.

---

91 criminal charges is another good reason to drop Trump from the Republican ticket for 2024.

---

soon yall will catch on this is the way the GOP sheds Trump off the ballot. The Dems want him on the ballot and looking worse than his Dem opponent in the media etc..

---

Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Every day is a great day to be against communists even if they appropriate the word "woke" to describe themselves. That said, Ramaswamy overtook DeSantis running on conservative principles more than an anti woke agenda. So, you are probably right that is better to be for conservative ideals rather than primarily anti woke.

---

His message is the right one. Rama is running a great campaign. He is good. I would vote for him.

FLBear5630 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Wrecks Quan Dough said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wrecks Quan Dough said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Guy Noir said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Guy Noir said:

---

Trump lost the 2020 election. Thus he is a loser. The Republicans need to put forth a candidate that is a winner.

It was never proven in court that the election was rigged.

---

Former president Donald Trump faces a total of 91 charges across four criminal cases. They include 44 federal charges and 47 state charges, all of them felonies. Trump has denied wrongdoing in each case.

---

91 criminal charges is another good reason to drop Trump from the Republican ticket for 2024.

---

soon yall will catch on this is the way the GOP sheds Trump off the ballot. The Dems want him on the ballot and looking worse than his Dem opponent in the media etc..

---

Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Every day is a great day to be against communists even if they appropriate the word "woke" to describe themselves. That said, Ramaswamy overtook DeSantis running on conservative principles more than an anti woke agenda. So, you are probably right that is better to be for conservative ideals rather than primarily anti woke.

---

His message is the right one. Rama is running a great campaign. He is good. I would vote for him.

---

If we voted today, Ramswamy has my vote..

Trump needs to be rode hard and put away wet. Or out of his and our misery. Just make certain he chooses a competent VP. Trump won't make another 4 years so we need to have a sane, tough, battle tested "outsider" who has been relatively untouched by the swamp.

I've never gotten used to all of the "I did this", "I did that", "this is the best we've ever had" hee-hawing like a donkey.

Thee University said:

---

Trump needs to be rode hard and put away wet. Or out of his and our misery. Just make certain he chooses a competent VP. Trump won't make another 4 years so we need to have a sane, tough, battle tested "outsider" who has been relatively untouched by the swamp.

I've never gotten used to all of the "I did this", "I did that", "this is the best we've ever had" hee-hawing like a donkey.

---

We need someone that knows how to navigate the swamp, outsiders never fare well.

The US needs a Trump-free Republican Party to make America sane again - opinion



https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-755217

Thee University said:

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The US needs a Trump-free Republican Party to make America sane again - opinion



https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-755217

---

The writer hates Trump, but appears to fine with Biden. Ergo, a f---king loon.

It's really funny that anyone that voted for Biden voted for this guy;



The mental gymnastics to support a person like that is something.

This entire episode of Banana Republic shenanigans is little more than a regressive Klanocrat power play ... they know the Republican morons will still support Trump, and the silly indictments will tie up his time and money and help China Joe win re-election. The entire Establishment is marshalled against Trump just like the Russia Hoax. I wish that narcissistic dumbass would just drop out of the race, and all the charges would be dropped.

FLBear5630 said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

---

I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

---

Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

---

I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

---

As long as DeSantis is being attacked by Trump, the Democrats, the mainstream news media, and his establishment embracing Republican rivals, I think I am still supporting the right guy. DeSantis is still my top pick. I like Tim Scott and Ramaswamy. Would still love to see Joe Manchin enter the race.

When Trump and the Democrats are united, that should be all you need to know.

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

When you depend on the NY Times to sell your argument, you don't really have a good argument.

---

exactly. Article describes completely lawful efforts to engage in politics and win an election, to include legal theory to support such.

People file lawsuits all the time knowing full well they are not likely to win...... Sometimes the objective is legal. Sometimes it is political. Sometimes it is both. And losing does not one a criminal make.

---

Disagree with you on this one. He told his VP, in his chain of command, to accept alternate electors against legal counsel. Pence's Attorneys and White House Counsel said it was not legal. Yet, Trump and his surrogates pushed on at multiple levels after the election was over. That is beyond politics, that is downright coup area.
He also had legal advice that it was a viable plan.... And Pence went along with it until the last minute.

Since with Trump we all have to believe that he is speaking metaphorically, I find it more likely he found the power of being US President more enticing than money and was willing to do ANYTHING to keep it. That to me is more probable than he was speaking metaphorically, playing master-level political strategy.

That is not even going into the Georgia "find me votes" comments and strong-arming.
Noting illegal about pointing out that a more thorough adjudication of mail-in votes would possibly/likely change the outcome. Remember, the margins were, statistically speaking, razor thin. Would have been very easy to find 12k questionable ballots worthy of disqualification. See Florida 2000 and hanging chads for how to execute the program.

The guy is a stupid, loose cannon and gets what he deserves. He is on tape saying "find me 11k votes". Same with the Ukraine impeachment quid pro quo in exchange for investigating Biden. The guy continued to break the law and rely on everyone to believe he is speaking metaphorically. Well, it bit him here. Because words matter and he is dead to rights when taking at the letter of what he says to overturn an election he knew he lost.
False dilemma. Speaking plain truth may be inconvenient, but it is still truth. We now know conclusively that Biden got rich off of bribes from Ukraine and that Trump's phone call to Ukraine on the matter showed good stewardship of US taxpayer dollars.

---

Let me say the inconvenient part cleary: it is not illegal to try to use legal procedures to overturn an election you know/suspect you actually lost. Gore literally did that in Florida in 2020. He kept counting Democrat counties only, knowing that the statistical certainty that any errors would fall in his favor might close the gap. And it would have if SCOTUS hadn't stepped in and stopped the re-counting (harvesting of ballot errors). Dems knew what they were doing.

Gore was stopped the same way Trump was stopped = by checks and balances. The system worked.

Democrats understand very clearly that the election isn't won until you take the oath of office. Challenging the results, to including using legal theories that have never before been tried, is not insurrection. It's liberty. You have the right to keep fighting until your opponent says "so help me God."

---

Whoa. This was not a re-count of one State with a 200 vote difference. Trump wanted Pence to throw out legally submitted State electors in favor of alternates that favored him. The two are not in the same galaxy!

Razor thin? Biden had over 300 electors! Trump needed to "find" votes in multiple state. This was not a Trump/Gore.

False dilemma? You can't just blurt out statements like fine me 11k votes OR investigate Joe Biden and you will receive aid! On tape. You can poo-poo it as a non-issue, but he set himself up for the impeachment and his comments are why he is going to be indicted in GA. He wonders why he is in Court!!! He is a stupid, loose cannon. You say it is OK to play politics and try anything to win an election and then get butt-hurt when Trump is tried for his own words!

---

a 2500 vote difference in FL vs a 11k vote difference in GA. (and comparable margins in other states). That is not a different universe. In FL 2000, there were two slates of FL electors standing ready to go until SCOTUS issued its final ruling WEEKS after the general election concluded. Highly analogous. and nobody alleged insurrection then.

There is law for process on post-election certification (or not) of every elected official. In close elections, the losing party attempts to stop certification, and/or to reverse certification. Nothing remarkable about any of that. Happens every election. What's unique about electors is that there actually are TWO sets of electors elected on the ballot. So it's not like Trump conjured this all up (which is what Dems are trying to portray). He was contesting the election results the way election results are contested. Democrats just didn't like it, and were highly defensive because they had much to be defensive about.

A thorough recounting of GA mail-in votes from Fulton Co (a selective recount ala what Gore demanded in 2000) would have reversed the results of the GA election.....a near mathematical certainty. Throwing out ballots with obvious errors would have had the effect of removing Biden votes at a rate exceeding 4-1. But Ga officials refused to do it. Trump was right to be livid with anger.

Dude. You are not thinking clearly on this point.....

---

Fulton conducted hand and machine recounts.

---

They did not look at signatures on mail in ballots......

---

The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

---

LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

---

If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

---

In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

---

GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

---

link with details of the audit procedures used?

---

Below was the process for the random sample audit of 15,200 absentee ballots that showed no evidence of fraud. Note that this audit followed GA's 2-step signature verification process, which verifies signatures both at the application stage and the vote stage.

Investigators broke into 18 two-member inspection teams to evaluate voter signatures, comparing them with voter registration forms, absentee ballot applications, passports and other government documents. The looked for word and letter spacing, slant, size, flourishes and alignment.

When at least one member of a team believed a signature didn't match, the ballot envelope was submitted for further review. Two three-member investigation teams evaluated questionable signatures.

In all, investigation teams scrutinized 396 questionable signatures on ballot envelopes. All but 10 of them were accepted as valid, and then investigators contacted voters to verify those ballots.

Georgia law requires voters to be notified when their absentee ballots are rejected, giving them a chance to verify their identities.

sombear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

When you depend on the NY Times to sell your argument, you don't really have a good argument.

---

exactly. Article describes completely lawful efforts to engage in politics and win an election, to include legal theory to support such.

People file lawsuits all the time knowing full well they are not likely to win...... Sometimes the objective is legal. Sometimes it is political. Sometimes it is both. And losing does not one a criminal make.

---

Disagree with you on this one. He told his VP, in his chain of command, to accept alternate electors against legal counsel. Pence's Attorneys and White House Counsel said it was not legal. Yet, Trump and his surrogates pushed on at multiple levels after the election was over. That is beyond politics, that is downright coup area.
He also had legal advice that it was a viable plan.... And Pence went along with it until the last minute.

Since with Trump we all have to believe that he is speaking metaphorically, I find it more likely he found the power of being US President more enticing than money and was willing to do ANYTHING to keep it. That to me is more probable than he was speaking metaphorically, playing master-level political strategy.

That is not even going into the Georgia "find me votes" comments and strong-arming.
Noting illegal about pointing out that a more thorough adjudication of mail-in votes would possibly/likely change the outcome. Remember, the margins were, statistically speaking, razor thin. Would have been very easy to find 12k questionable ballots worthy of disqualification. See Florida 2000 and hanging chads for how to execute the program.

The guy is a stupid, loose cannon and gets what he deserves. He is on tape saying "find me 11k votes". Same with the Ukraine impeachment quid pro quo in exchange for investigating Biden. The guy continued to break the law and rely on everyone to believe he is speaking metaphorically. Well, it bit him here. Because words matter and he is dead to rights when taking at the letter of what he says to overturn an election he knew he lost.
False dilemma. Speaking plain truth may be inconvenient, but it is still truth. We now know conclusively that Biden got rich off of bribes from Ukraine and that Trump's phone call to Ukraine on the matter showed good stewardship of US taxpayer dollars.

---

Let me say the inconvenient part cleary: it is not illegal to try to use legal procedures to overturn an election you know/suspect you actually lost. Gore literally did that in Florida in 2020. He kept counting Democrat counties only, knowing that the statistical certainty that any errors would fall in his favor might close the gap. And it would have if SCOTUS hadn't stepped in and stopped the re-counting (harvesting of ballot errors). Dems knew what they were doing.

Gore was stopped the same way Trump was stopped = by checks and balances. The system worked.

Democrats understand very clearly that the election isn't won until you take the oath of office. Challenging the results, to including using legal theories that have never before been tried, is not insurrection. It's liberty. You have the right to keep fighting until your opponent says "so help me God."

---

Whoa. This was not a re-count of one State with a 200 vote difference. Trump wanted Pence to throw out legally submitted State electors in favor of alternates that favored him. The two are not in the same galaxy!

Razor thin? Biden had over 300 electors! Trump needed to "find" votes in multiple state. This was not a Trump/Gore.

False dilemma? You can't just blurt out statements like fine me 11k votes OR investigate Joe Biden and you will receive aid! On tape. You can poo-poo it as a non-issue, but he set himself up for the impeachment and his comments are why he is going to be indicted in GA. He wonders why he is in Court!!! He is a stupid, loose cannon. You say it is OK to play politics and try anything to win an election and then get butt-hurt when Trump is tried for his own words!

---

a 2500 vote difference in FL vs a 11k vote difference in GA. (and comparable margins in other states). That is not a different universe. In FL 2000, there were two slates of FL electors standing ready to go until SCOTUS issued its final ruling WEEKS after the general election concluded. Highly analogous. and nobody alleged insurrection then.

There is law for process on post-election certification (or not) of every elected official. In close elections, the losing party attempts to stop certification, and/or to reverse certification. Nothing remarkable about any of that. Happens every election. What's unique about electors is that there actually are TWO sets of electors elected on the ballot. So it's not like Trump conjured this all up (which is what Dems are trying to portray). He was contesting the election results the way election results are contested. Democrats just didn't like it, and were highly defensive because they had much to be defensive about.

A thorough recounting of GA mail-in votes from Fulton Co (a selective recount ala what Gore demanded in 2000) would have reversed the results of the GA election.....a near mathematical certainty. Throwing out ballots with obvious errors would have had the effect of removing Biden votes at a rate exceeding 4-1. But Ga officials refused to do it. Trump was right to be livid with anger.

Dude. You are not thinking clearly on this point.....

---

Fulton conducted hand and machine recounts.

---

They did not look at signatures on mail in ballots......

---

The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

---

LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

---

If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

---

In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

---

GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

---

link with details of the audit procedures used?

---

Below was the process for the random sample audit of 15,200 absentee ballots that showed no evidence of fraud. Note that this audit followed GA's 2-step signature verification process, which verifies signatures both at the application stage and the vote stage.

Investigators broke into 18 two-member inspection teams to evaluate voter signatures, comparing them with voter registration forms, absentee ballot applications, passports and other government documents. The looked for word and letter spacing, slant, size, flourishes and alignment.

When at least one member of a team believed a signature didn't match, the ballot envelope was submitted for further review. Two three-member investigation teams evaluated questionable signatures.

In all, investigation teams scrutinized 396 questionable signatures on ballot envelopes. All but 10 of them were accepted as valid, and then investigators contacted voters to verify those ballots.

Georgia law requires voters to be notified when their absentee ballots are rejected, giving them a chance to verify their identities.

---

I find it interesting that the Trump proponents believe all recounts will only benefit Trump...

FLBear5630 said:

---

sombear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

When you depend on the NY Times to sell your argument, you don't really have a good argument.

---

exactly. Article describes completely lawful efforts to engage in politics and win an election, to include legal theory to support such.

People file lawsuits all the time knowing full well they are not likely to win...... Sometimes the objective is legal. Sometimes it is political. Sometimes it is both. And losing does not one a criminal make.

---

Disagree with you on this one. He told his VP, in his chain of command, to accept alternate electors against legal counsel. Pence's Attorneys and White House Counsel said it was not legal. Yet, Trump and his surrogates pushed on at multiple levels after the election was over. That is beyond politics, that is downright coup area.
He also had legal advice that it was a viable plan.... And Pence went along with it until the last minute.

Since with Trump we all have to believe that he is speaking metaphorically, I find it more likely he found the power of being US President more enticing than money and was willing to do ANYTHING to keep it. That to me is more probable than he was speaking metaphorically, playing master-level political strategy.

That is not even going into the Georgia "find me votes" comments and strong-arming.
Noting illegal about pointing out that a more thorough adjudication of mail-in votes would possibly/likely change the outcome. Remember, the margins were, statistically speaking, razor thin. Would have been very easy to find 12k questionable ballots worthy of disqualification. See Florida 2000 and hanging chads for how to execute the program.

The guy is a stupid, loose cannon and gets what he deserves. He is on tape saying "find me 11k votes". Same with the Ukraine impeachment quid pro quo in exchange for investigating Biden. The guy continued to break the law and rely on everyone to believe he is speaking metaphorically. Well, it bit him here. Because words matter and he is dead to rights when taking at the letter of what he says to overturn an election he knew he lost.
False dilemma. Speaking plain truth may be inconvenient, but it is still truth. We now know conclusively that Biden got rich off of bribes from Ukraine and that Trump's phone call to Ukraine on the matter showed good stewardship of US taxpayer dollars.

---

Let me say the inconvenient part cleary: it is not illegal to try to use legal procedures to overturn an election you know/suspect you actually lost. Gore literally did that in Florida in 2020. He kept counting Democrat counties only, knowing that the statistical certainty that any errors would fall in his favor might close the gap. And it would have if SCOTUS hadn't stepped in and stopped the re-counting (harvesting of ballot errors). Dems knew what they were doing.

Gore was stopped the same way Trump was stopped = by checks and balances. The system worked.

Democrats understand very clearly that the election isn't won until you take the oath of office. Challenging the results, to including using legal theories that have never before been tried, is not insurrection. It's liberty. You have the right to keep fighting until your opponent says "so help me God."

---

Whoa. This was not a re-count of one State with a 200 vote difference. Trump wanted Pence to throw out legally submitted State electors in favor of alternates that favored him. The two are not in the same galaxy!

Razor thin? Biden had over 300 electors! Trump needed to "find" votes in multiple state. This was not a Trump/Gore.

False dilemma? You can't just blurt out statements like fine me 11k votes OR investigate Joe Biden and you will receive aid! On tape. You can poo-poo it as a non-issue, but he set himself up for the impeachment and his comments are why he is going to be indicted in GA. He wonders why he is in Court!!! He is a stupid, loose cannon. You say it is OK to play politics and try anything to win an election and then get butt-hurt when Trump is tried for his own words!

---

a 2500 vote difference in FL vs a 11k vote difference in GA. (and comparable margins in other states). That is not a different universe. In FL 2000, there were two slates of FL electors standing ready to go until SCOTUS issued its final ruling WEEKS after the general election concluded. Highly analogous. and nobody alleged insurrection then.

There is law for process on post-election certification (or not) of every elected official. In close elections, the losing party attempts to stop certification, and/or to reverse certification. Nothing remarkable about any of that. Happens every election. What's unique about electors is that there actually are TWO sets of electors elected on the ballot. So it's not like Trump conjured this all up (which is what Dems are trying to portray). He was contesting the election results the way election results are contested. Democrats just didn't like it, and were highly defensive because they had much to be defensive about.

A thorough recounting of GA mail-in votes from Fulton Co (a selective recount ala what Gore demanded in 2000) would have reversed the results of the GA election.....a near mathematical certainty. Throwing out ballots with obvious errors would have had the effect of removing Biden votes at a rate exceeding 4-1. But Ga officials refused to do it. Trump was right to be livid with anger.

Dude. You are not thinking clearly on this point.....

---

Fulton conducted hand and machine recounts.

---

They did not look at signatures on mail in ballots......

---

The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

---

LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

---

If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

---

In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

---

GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

---

link with details of the audit procedures used?

---

Below was the process for the random sample audit of 15,200 absentee ballots that showed no evidence of fraud. Note that this audit followed GA's 2-step signature verification process, which verifies signatures both at the application stage and the vote stage.

Investigators broke into 18 two-member inspection teams to evaluate voter signatures, comparing them with voter registration forms, absentee ballot applications, passports and other government documents. The looked for word and letter spacing, slant, size, flourishes and alignment.

When at least one member of a team believed a signature didn't match, the ballot envelope was submitted for further review. Two three-member investigation teams evaluated questionable signatures.

In all, investigation teams scrutinized 396 questionable signatures on ballot envelopes. All but 10 of them were accepted as valid, and then investigators contacted voters to verify those ballots.

Georgia law requires voters to be notified when their absentee ballots are rejected, giving them a chance to verify their identities.

---

I find it interesting that the Trump proponents believe all recounts will only benefit Trump...

---

It's become a form of sickness. Most Trumpers believe everything he says. He's the most dishonest politician I've ever seen, yet a poll over the weekend showed a majority of Trump supporters believe he is more honest than their own family and pastors/clergy. I actually thought it was Babylon Bee when I first read it.

It used to be, "I know he's a liar, but he's our liar." Now it's just "he's honest as the sky is blue."

Back to Georgia, every single one of his BS fraud claims was refuted - the military ballots, the "suitcase," the dead people voting, imaginary people, etc. Yet he kept regurgitating the same lies.

sombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

sombear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

When you depend on the NY Times to sell your argument, you don't really have a good argument.

---

exactly. Article describes completely lawful efforts to engage in politics and win an election, to include legal theory to support such.

People file lawsuits all the time knowing full well they are not likely to win...... Sometimes the objective is legal. Sometimes it is political. Sometimes it is both. And losing does not one a criminal make.

---

Disagree with you on this one. He told his VP, in his chain of command, to accept alternate electors against legal counsel. Pence's Attorneys and White House Counsel said it was not legal. Yet, Trump and his surrogates pushed on at multiple levels after the election was over. That is beyond politics, that is downright coup area.
He also had legal advice that it was a viable plan.... And Pence went along with it until the last minute.

Since with Trump we all have to believe that he is speaking metaphorically, I find it more likely he found the power of being US President more enticing than money and was willing to do ANYTHING to keep it. That to me is more probable than he was speaking metaphorically, playing master-level political strategy.

That is not even going into the Georgia "find me votes" comments and strong-arming.
Noting illegal about pointing out that a more thorough adjudication of mail-in votes would possibly/likely change the outcome. Remember, the margins were, statistically speaking, razor thin. Would have been very easy to find 12k questionable ballots worthy of disqualification. See Florida 2000 and hanging chads for how to execute the program.

The guy is a stupid, loose cannon and gets what he deserves. He is on tape saying "find me 11k votes". Same with the Ukraine impeachment quid pro quo in exchange for investigating Biden. The guy continued to break the law and rely on everyone to believe he is speaking metaphorically. Well, it bit him here. Because words matter and he is dead to rights when taking at the letter of what he says to overturn an election he knew he lost.
False dilemma. Speaking plain truth may be inconvenient, but it is still truth. We now know conclusively that Biden got rich off of bribes from Ukraine and that Trump's phone call to Ukraine on the matter showed good stewardship of US taxpayer dollars.

---

Let me say the inconvenient part cleary: it is not illegal to try to use legal procedures to overturn an election you know/suspect you actually lost. Gore literally did that in Florida in 2020. He kept counting Democrat counties only, knowing that the statistical certainty that any errors would fall in his favor might close the gap. And it would have if SCOTUS hadn't stepped in and stopped the re-counting (harvesting of ballot errors). Dems knew what they were doing.

Gore was stopped the same way Trump was stopped = by checks and balances. The system worked.

Democrats understand very clearly that the election isn't won until you take the oath of office. Challenging the results, to including using legal theories that have never before been tried, is not insurrection. It's liberty. You have the right to keep fighting until your opponent says "so help me God."

---

Whoa. This was not a re-count of one State with a 200 vote difference. Trump wanted Pence to throw out legally submitted State electors in favor of alternates that favored him. The two are not in the same galaxy!

Razor thin? Biden had over 300 electors! Trump needed to "find" votes in multiple state. This was not a Trump/Gore.

False dilemma? You can't just blurt out statements like fine me 11k votes OR investigate Joe Biden and you will receive aid! On tape. You can poo-poo it as a non-issue, but he set himself up for the impeachment and his comments are why he is going to be indicted in GA. He wonders why he is in Court!!! He is a stupid, loose cannon. You say it is OK to play politics and try anything to win an election and then get butt-hurt when Trump is tried for his own words!

---

a 2500 vote difference in FL vs a 11k vote difference in GA. (and comparable margins in other states). That is not a different universe. In FL 2000, there were two slates of FL electors standing ready to go until SCOTUS issued its final ruling WEEKS after the general election concluded. Highly analogous. and nobody alleged insurrection then.

There is law for process on post-election certification (or not) of every elected official. In close elections, the losing party attempts to stop certification, and/or to reverse certification. Nothing remarkable about any of that. Happens every election. What's unique about electors is that there actually are TWO sets of electors elected on the ballot. So it's not like Trump conjured this all up (which is what Dems are trying to portray). He was contesting the election results the way election results are contested. Democrats just didn't like it, and were highly defensive because they had much to be defensive about.

A thorough recounting of GA mail-in votes from Fulton Co (a selective recount ala what Gore demanded in 2000) would have reversed the results of the GA election.....a near mathematical certainty. Throwing out ballots with obvious errors would have had the effect of removing Biden votes at a rate exceeding 4-1. But Ga officials refused to do it. Trump was right to be livid with anger.

Dude. You are not thinking clearly on this point.....

---

Fulton conducted hand and machine recounts.

---

They did not look at signatures on mail in ballots......

---

The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

---

LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

---

If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

---

In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

---

GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

---

link with details of the audit procedures used?

---

Below was the process for the random sample audit of 15,200 absentee ballots that showed no evidence of fraud. Note that this audit followed GA's 2-step signature verification process, which verifies signatures both at the application stage and the vote stage.

Investigators broke into 18 two-member inspection teams to evaluate voter signatures, comparing them with voter registration forms, absentee ballot applications, passports and other government documents. The looked for word and letter spacing, slant, size, flourishes and alignment.

When at least one member of a team believed a signature didn't match, the ballot envelope was submitted for further review. Two three-member investigation teams evaluated questionable signatures.

In all, investigation teams scrutinized 396 questionable signatures on ballot envelopes. All but 10 of them were accepted as valid, and then investigators contacted voters to verify those ballots.

Georgia law requires voters to be notified when their absentee ballots are rejected, giving them a chance to verify their identities.

---

I find it interesting that the Trump proponents believe all recounts will only benefit Trump...

---

It's become a form of sickness. Most Trumpers believe everything he says. He's the most dishonest politician I've ever seen, yet a poll over the weekend showed a majority of Trump supporters believe he is more honest than their own family and pastors/clergy. I actually thought it was Babylon Bee when I first read it.

It used to be, "I know he's a liar, but he's our liar." Now it's just "he's honest as the sky is blue."

Back to Georgia, every single one of his BS fraud claims was refuted - the military ballots, the "suitcase," the dead people voting, imaginary people, etc. Yet he kept regurgitating the same lies.

---

This has happened in multiple states. Barr told him they didn't find fraud. Yet, he keeps going that direction. I think it is because "fraud" is easier to say and tweet than "States did not follow their election rules."

I do believe that happened which answers for the large turn-out, but they are still people's votes. Barr spelled it out in his book. But, it is easier to say that Barr is untrustworthy, the media is in a conspiracy, and the Deep State is working against poor Donald. This is the USFL and Atlantic City all over on a bigger scale...

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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"Trump is on trial for plotting to overthrow the 2020 election"

That's the charge. The facts don't support it.

What Trump did was raise a stink about the election, just as Clinton did in 2016 and Kerry did in 2004 and Gore did in 2000. Gore is the outlier because once the SCOTUS ruled against him, he limited his complaints to public appearances between 2001 and 2004.

Trump believed the election was stolen. Even if you think he is wrong about that, believing the election was stolen is not criminal.

And Trump did not destroy emails, did not order anyone to lie for him, did not have classified documents in his garage before he was even President.

The worst charge that can be made to stick to Trump is that he did not return documents when an Archives drone demanded them. And the Presidential Records Act can apply to that, not the freaking Espionage Act.

This is a garbage set of indictments, no matter your politics. And the public knows it, which is why Trump is riding high in the polls.

If you want sanity returned to the election cycle, find Trump not guilty then start in discussing the issues and what policies each candidate brings to the table. That's how you find the best candidate and move on.

Pretending there is a shred of reason to play along with Biden's DOJ and send Trump to prison, is obscene and cannot help but lead to disaster.

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I agree with this for the most part, except for the bolded part. The documents indictment has teeth, and Trump is in some real danger there. Every other charge is indeed garbage. However, the public doesn't know it. Both the govt. and the MSM have done a fantastic job of making many Americans believe that these are real crimes.

As for Trump's popularity, it may remain high among Repubs, but it's sitting around 37% among the general populace, give or take a couple of points.

Trump is popular only among Republicans. He is very unpopular outside of that demographic.

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....and Biden is only popular among Democrats, and very unpopular outside of that demographic.....

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Agreed, but his demographic is bigger. And therein lies the problem, and the reason Trump will never win another general election.

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

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All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

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Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

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Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

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He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

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it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

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I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

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Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

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I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

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Anti-wokeness seemed to work for Trump. Maybe DeSantis just isn't selling it as well. I think what's more important is that Trumpians aren't convinced he's a true populist.

Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

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All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

---

I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

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Anti-wokeness seemed to work for Trump. Maybe DeSantis just isn't selling it as well. I think what's more important is that Trumpians aren't convinced he's a true populist.

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Trump did not go against anti-woke as his main item. He was anti-swamp and the US looking after its own interest. Woke was a by-product

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

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All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

---

I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

---

The data does not support your argument. Even among those who support another candidate, the #1 thing they like about RDS is that he is anti-woke. A lot of folks are focusing on the wrong issues. It actually is very simple. The indictments solidified and expanded Trump's base like nothing else could have. Trump's "trustworthy" and "honesty" numbers have skyrocketed because of how GOP voters distrust those indicting him.

Trump's own polling and the polling of other candidates predicted this, but not to this extent.

Back to RDS, when voters are asked what they don't like about him, guess what the top answers are. They are exactly what Trump has said against RDS - sanctimonious, disloyal, and the Florida story is overrated. It is uncanny and unprecedented. The indictments have made Trump more credible and sympathetic among GOP voters.

The only candidate who has consistently climbed is Vivek, and the polls are clear as to why. He is the most openly and ardently pro-Trump candidate.

It pains me to say this, but this primary is over as long as Trump remains in the race. It's nothing Trump has done (other than violate the law and act like an idiot) or the other candidates have done. I know the experts out there are saying it's still early - and I'd normally agree - but there is nothing that can change this overall dynamic.

sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Quote:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

---

I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

---

The data does not support your argument. Even among those who support another candidate, the #1 thing they like about RDS is that he is anti-woke. A lot of folks are focusing on the wrong issues. It actually is very simple. The indictments solidified and expanded Trump's base like nothing else could have. Trump's "trustworthy" and "honesty" numbers have skyrocketed because of how GOP voters distrust those indicting him.

Trump's own polling and the polling of other candidates predicted this, but not to this extent.

Back to RDS, when voters are asked what they don't like about him, guess what the top answers are. They are exactly what Trump has said against RDS - sanctimonious, disloyal, and the Florida story is overrated. It is uncanny and unprecedented. The indictments have made Trump more credible and sympathetic among GOP voters.

The only candidate who has consistently climbed is Vivek, and the polls are clear as to why. He is the most openly and ardently pro-Trump candidate.

It pains me to say this, but this primary is over as long as Trump remains in the race. It's nothing Trump has done (other than violate the law and act like an idiot) or the other candidates have done. I know the experts out there are saying it's still early - and I'd normally agree - but there is nothing that can change this overall dynamic.

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Yes, the 12% he is down to from the 40% post-pandemic! Yes, the people supporting RDS are very anti-woke centric. Problem is there are not enough to win a County Commission seat...

FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Quote:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

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All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

---

I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

---

The data does not support your argument. Even among those who support another candidate, the #1 thing they like about RDS is that he is anti-woke. A lot of folks are focusing on the wrong issues. It actually is very simple. The indictments solidified and expanded Trump's base like nothing else could have. Trump's "trustworthy" and "honesty" numbers have skyrocketed because of how GOP voters distrust those indicting him.

Trump's own polling and the polling of other candidates predicted this, but not to this extent.

Back to RDS, when voters are asked what they don't like about him, guess what the top answers are. They are exactly what Trump has said against RDS - sanctimonious, disloyal, and the Florida story is overrated. It is uncanny and unprecedented. The indictments have made Trump more credible and sympathetic among GOP voters.

The only candidate who has consistently climbed is Vivek, and the polls are clear as to why. He is the most openly and ardently pro-Trump candidate.

It pains me to say this, but this primary is over as long as Trump remains in the race. It's nothing Trump has done (other than violate the law and act like an idiot) or the other candidates have done. I know the experts out there are saying it's still early - and I'd normally agree - but there is nothing that can change this overall dynamic.

---

Yes, the 12% he is down to from the 40% post-pandemic! Yes, the people supporting RDS are very anti-woke centric. Problem is there are not enough to win a County Commission seat...

---

Look, I wish he would have broadened his message a bit more, but the polling shows that would not have made a difference. As I stated above, it's not just his voters but voters supporting others that love his anti-woke message. RDS' supporters have returned to Trump, not to other candidates.

sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

---

I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

---

The data does not support your argument. Even among those who support another candidate, the #1 thing they like about RDS is that he is anti-woke. A lot of folks are focusing on the wrong issues. It actually is very simple. The indictments solidified and expanded Trump's base like nothing else could have. Trump's "trustworthy" and "honesty" numbers have skyrocketed because of how GOP voters distrust those indicting him.

Trump's own polling and the polling of other candidates predicted this, but not to this extent.

Back to RDS, when voters are asked what they don't like about him, guess what the top answers are. They are exactly what Trump has said against RDS - sanctimonious, disloyal, and the Florida story is overrated. It is uncanny and unprecedented. The indictments have made Trump more credible and sympathetic among GOP voters.

The only candidate who has consistently climbed is Vivek, and the polls are clear as to why. He is the most openly and ardently pro-Trump candidate.

It pains me to say this, but this primary is over as long as Trump remains in the race. It's nothing Trump has done (other than violate the law and act like an idiot) or the other candidates have done. I know the experts out there are saying it's still early - and I'd normally agree - but there is nothing that can change this overall dynamic.

---

Yes, the 12% he is down to from the 40% post-pandemic! Yes, the people supporting RDS are very anti-woke centric. Problem is there are not enough to win a County Commission seat...

---

Look, I wish he would have broadened his message a bit more, but the polling shows that would not have made a difference. As I stated above, it's not just his voters but voters supporting others that love his anti-woke message. RDS' supporters have returned to Trump, not to other candidates.

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Well, I can tell you in FL it is not playing well, even with lifetime Conservatives. Pro-Business DeSantis was way more popular here. He got high marks for Pandemic, but since? It is not playing well.

FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

---

I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

---

The data does not support your argument. Even among those who support another candidate, the #1 thing they like about RDS is that he is anti-woke. A lot of folks are focusing on the wrong issues. It actually is very simple. The indictments solidified and expanded Trump's base like nothing else could have. Trump's "trustworthy" and "honesty" numbers have skyrocketed because of how GOP voters distrust those indicting him.

Trump's own polling and the polling of other candidates predicted this, but not to this extent.

Back to RDS, when voters are asked what they don't like about him, guess what the top answers are. They are exactly what Trump has said against RDS - sanctimonious, disloyal, and the Florida story is overrated. It is uncanny and unprecedented. The indictments have made Trump more credible and sympathetic among GOP voters.

The only candidate who has consistently climbed is Vivek, and the polls are clear as to why. He is the most openly and ardently pro-Trump candidate.

It pains me to say this, but this primary is over as long as Trump remains in the race. It's nothing Trump has done (other than violate the law and act like an idiot) or the other candidates have done. I know the experts out there are saying it's still early - and I'd normally agree - but there is nothing that can change this overall dynamic.

---

Yes, the 12% he is down to from the 40% post-pandemic! Yes, the people supporting RDS are very anti-woke centric. Problem is there are not enough to win a County Commission seat...

---

Look, I wish he would have broadened his message a bit more, but the polling shows that would not have made a difference. As I stated above, it's not just his voters but voters supporting others that love his anti-woke message. RDS' supporters have returned to Trump, not to other candidates.

---

Well, I can tell you in FL it is not playing well, even with lifetime Conservatives. Pro-Business DeSantis was way more popular here. He got high marks for Pandemic, but since? It is not playing well.

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I believe that.

sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

---

All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

---

Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

---

Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

---

He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

---

it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

---

I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

---

Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

---

I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

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The data does not support your argument. Even among those who support another candidate, the #1 thing they like about RDS is that he is anti-woke. A lot of folks are focusing on the wrong issues. It actually is very simple. The indictments solidified and expanded Trump's base like nothing else could have. Trump's "trustworthy" and "honesty" numbers have skyrocketed because of how GOP voters distrust those indicting him.

Trump's own polling and the polling of other candidates predicted this, but not to this extent.

Back to RDS, when voters are asked what they don't like about him, guess what the top answers are. They are exactly what Trump has said against RDS - sanctimonious, disloyal, and the Florida story is overrated. It is uncanny and unprecedented. The indictments have made Trump more credible and sympathetic among GOP voters.

The only candidate who has consistently climbed is Vivek, and the polls are clear as to why. He is the most openly and ardently pro-Trump candidate.

It pains me to say this, but this primary is over as long as Trump remains in the race. It's nothing Trump has done (other than violate the law and act like an idiot) or the other candidates have done. I know the experts out there are saying it's still early - and I'd normally agree - but there is nothing that can change this overall dynamic.

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Yes, the 12% he is down to from the 40% post-pandemic! Yes, the people supporting RDS are very anti-woke centric. Problem is there are not enough to win a County Commission seat...

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Look, I wish he would have broadened his message a bit more, but the polling shows that would not have made a difference. As I stated above, it's not just his voters but voters supporting others that love his anti-woke message. RDS' supporters have returned to Trump, not to other candidates.

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this is always the struggle.. you message has to resonAte with the populus and also be different from the main canidate of your party if you wish to overtake them. Nobody believes RDS can do what Trump did as good as Trump.. until Trump is no longer an option, Trump is the party's choice although others have gained ground(it wont be enough to beat Trump in the primary).

RDS is not that likable, very Pence like.. can govern a state well emough but not enough to carry all the states needed to win. Needs to be energetic and optimistic and have a plan that isnt "we arent progressives".

Ramaswamy is an unknown but he is building a base with his information and his plan.. will it be enough? Probably not but I Believe he will do better nationally than RDS

FLBear5630 said:

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The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

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LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

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If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

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In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

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GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

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link with details of the audit procedures used?

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Below was the process for the random sample audit of 15,200 absentee ballots that showed no evidence of fraud. Note that this audit followed GA's 2-step signature verification process, which verifies signatures both at the application stage and the vote stage.

Investigators broke into 18 two-member inspection teams to evaluate voter signatures, comparing them with voter registration forms, absentee ballot applications, passports and other government documents. The looked for word and letter spacing, slant, size, flourishes and alignment.

When at least one member of a team believed a signature didn't match, the ballot envelope was submitted for further review. Two three-member investigation teams evaluated questionable signatures.

In all, investigation teams scrutinized 396 questionable signatures on ballot envelopes. All but 10 of them were accepted as valid, and then investigators contacted voters to verify those ballots.

Georgia law requires voters to be notified when their absentee ballots are rejected, giving them a chance to verify their identities.

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I find it interesting that the Trump proponents believe all recounts will only benefit Trump...

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Mathematical certainty. look very closely at FL 2000. Dems lost the state by 2500 votes. Gore conceded. Then his number crunchers explained how he had a pathway to win - contest ONLY the blue counties, where there were tons of Democrat voters. Why? Because the results of a recount tend to reinforce the outcome of the election. It's statistics. If you win an election 60/40, the questionable ballots tend, statistically, to break down about the same percentages as the overall vote total. So if you only need 3k ballots, just start recounting ballots in blue counties and eventually you will stack up enough to close the margin & win. And that's EXACTLY what they did. GOP did not pick up on the strategy until deadlines had passed and could not count red counties. Took the courts to stop the steal.

In the case of GA, the problems were discrepancies with mail-in ballots, which went Democrat by over 2-1 margins. So if you need to close a 11k vote margin, all you have to do is go to a really big blue county and start micro-inspecting the mail-in vote to find discrepancies. And the discrepancies you do find will tend to break 2-1 Democrat. So you would not be adding to your vote total, as Gore did, but rather eating away at your opponent's vote total.

It was all set up, plain & simple. All they had to do was do it. Only the GA Gov and SecState did not want to admit their election might have had any problems at all, as it would have reflected poorly on their choices on how to run it. So they dug it to defend the results. And then later went back and made changes to the law that sharply curtailed mail-in voting......

I wouldn't offer bodily fluids to Kemp & Raffensberger if their guts were on fire.

sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Let's hide and watch as Younkin ascends the polls.

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All the way to 8%..

I will try to help DeSantis close on 1st place, thanks.

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Which DeSantis? The 1st term Gov who was pro-business and middle of the road on policy? Or the anti-woke obsessed Gov chasing billions out of the state?

1st term DeSantis, I am all in. This latest anti-woke guy, give me Haley...

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Yeah, after all, it is just basic fairness and decency that you are giving up. And I am not clear what the trade off is since Florida seems to be dong quite well into DeSantis' second term.

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He is great on certain things. He just got very obsessed with the anti woke stuff.. jts all he talks about.

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it's what most GOP voters are concerned about.

He has to win the primary before he can talk about the things the centrists are worried about.

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I disagree that the anti-woke stuff is top on GOP minds. Even Trump is not running on that platform.

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Campaigns poll to see what voters care most about. If a candidate as well-funded and with a team as experienced as what RDS has put together is talking about something, they've got hard data to support their messaging, right down to key words & phrases. And this is not just an issue that motivates conservatives. Wokeness is a big deal with independents, too. It's literally how Youngkin got elected.

The anti-woke stuff may not be important to you, but it is to me. It's the most direct threat to liberty to arise in my lifetime. If you aren't worried about it, you are not thinking clearly. RDS willingness to confront it early, often, vigorously is the thing I like most about him.

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I don't think you are as plugged in as you believe. DeSantis is falling like a stone in the GOP race. His popularity in FL has plummeted since he went all anti-woke. You may believe that, but the FACT that Rama, Halley, Scott are all rising as DeSantis is falling doesn't support your believes.

Sometimes, I know it is hard for those used to working with the talking heads that believe they know all, you look at the data and say "they ain't right..." I am used to working on the line, not the "big house", the data is not supporting what those that supposedly know are saying. He should have stuck with his States rights, pro-business message he had during the Pandemic.

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The data does not support your argument. Even among those who support another candidate, the #1 thing they like about RDS is that he is anti-woke. A lot of folks are focusing on the wrong issues. It actually is very simple. The indictments solidified and expanded Trump's base like nothing else could have. Trump's "trustworthy" and "honesty" numbers have skyrocketed because of how GOP voters distrust those indicting him.

Trump's own polling and the polling of other candidates predicted this, but not to this extent.

Back to RDS, when voters are asked what they don't like about him, guess what the top answers are. They are exactly what Trump has said against RDS - sanctimonious, disloyal, and the Florida story is overrated. It is uncanny and unprecedented. The indictments have made Trump more credible and sympathetic among GOP voters.

The only candidate who has consistently climbed is Vivek, and the polls are clear as to why. He is the most openly and ardently pro-Trump candidate.

It pains me to say this, but this primary is over as long as Trump remains in the race. It's nothing Trump has done (other than violate the law and act like an idiot) or the other candidates have done. I know the experts out there are saying it's still early - and I'd normally agree - but there is nothing that can change this overall dynamic.

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and also the most articulately anti-woke, addressing the constitutional problems wokeness poses...... And, in addition, he is not an elected official, so all he can do is address it philosophically. He does not have to poke bears like Disne. Every battle won has a butcher's bill......

sombear said:

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They did not look at signatures on mail in ballots......

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The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

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LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

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If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

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In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

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GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

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link with details of the audit procedures used?

---

Below was the process for the random sample audit of 15,200 absentee ballots that showed no evidence of fraud. Note that this audit followed GA's 2-step signature verification process, which verifies signatures both at the application stage and the vote stage.

Investigators broke into 18 two-member inspection teams to evaluate voter signatures, comparing them with voter registration forms, absentee ballot applications, passports and other government documents. The looked for word and letter spacing, slant, size, flourishes and alignment.

When at least one member of a team believed a signature didn't match, the ballot envelope was submitted for further review. Two three-member investigation teams evaluated questionable signatures.

In all, investigation teams scrutinized 396 questionable signatures on ballot envelopes. All but 10 of them were accepted as valid, and then investigators contacted voters to verify those ballots.

Georgia law requires voters to be notified when their absentee ballots are rejected, giving them a chance to verify their identities.

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In an effort to prove it couldn't have happened, you showed how it did. 10 of 396 is 2.5% of ballots.
2.5% of 1.7m is 43k questionable ballots, in an election decided by 11k votes.
The math here is very clear. If we do a David Boies level hell-for-leather ballot inspection, Trump wins GA.

So many levels of things to be concerned about. 7m ballot request forms mailed out in an electorate of 5.6m people, unsupervised ballot drop boxes, counting irregularities in blue counties, etc..... The assertion there was no fraud, that their could have been no fraud, is fatuous to the point of insulting the intelligence of the listener.

Close election results can create a free-for-all, often decided by the side that wants it most. neverTrumpers didn't want it in the first place, not-so-secretly happy that the election ratified their sensibilities, and they smirked like Pilate at being able to wash their hands without any water. And if we're going to be critical of Trump, lets not spare the 6% of GA Republicans who voted for Biden, costing us two Senate seats. neverTrumpers in GA were the far bigger problems than Democrat voter fraud, frankly..... Kemp & Raffensberger were unwilling to admit any irregularities for fear it would cast a cloud over their future political careers, then quietly amended election law in ways that sharply reduced mail-in voting. I wouldn't offer bodily fluids to those two if their guts were on fire.

whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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They did not look at signatures on mail in ballots......

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The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

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LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

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If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

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In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

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GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

---

link with details of the audit procedures used?

---

Below was the process for the random sample audit of 15,200 absentee ballots that showed no evidence of fraud. Note that this audit followed GA's 2-step signature verification process, which verifies signatures both at the application stage and the vote stage.

Investigators broke into 18 two-member inspection teams to evaluate voter signatures, comparing them with voter registration forms, absentee ballot applications, passports and other government documents. The looked for word and letter spacing, slant, size, flourishes and alignment.

When at least one member of a team believed a signature didn't match, the ballot envelope was submitted for further review. Two three-member investigation teams evaluated questionable signatures.

In all, investigation teams scrutinized 396 questionable signatures on ballot envelopes. All but 10 of them were accepted as valid, and then investigators contacted voters to verify those ballots.

Georgia law requires voters to be notified when their absentee ballots are rejected, giving them a chance to verify their identities.

---

In an effort to prove it couldn't have happened, you showed how it did. 10 of 396 is 2.5% of ballots.
2.5% of 1.7m is 43k questionable ballots, in an election decided by 11k votes.
The math here is very clear. If we do a David Boies level hell-for-leather ballot inspection, Trump wins GA.

So many levels of things to be concerned about. 7m ballot request forms mailed out in an electorate of 5.6m people, unsupervised ballot drop boxes, counting irregularities in blue counties, etc..... The assertion there was no fraud, that their could have been no fraud, is fatuous to the point of insulting the intelligence of the listener.

Close election results can create a free-for-all, often decided by the side that wants it most. neverTrumpers didn't want it in the first place, not-so-secretly happy that the election ratified their sensibilities, and they smirked like Pilate at being able to wash their hands without any water. And if we're going to be critical of Trump, lets not spare the 6% of GA Republicans who voted for Biden, costing us two Senate seats. neverTrumpers in GA were the far bigger problems than Democrat voter fraud, frankly..... Kemp & Raffensberger were unwilling to admit any irregularities for fear it would cast a cloud over their future political careers, then quietly amended election law in ways that sharply reduced mail-in voting. I wouldn't offer bodily fluids to those two if their guts were on fire.

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And Biden would get 0 in a State that went 50/50? All votes would be for Trump???

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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They did not look at signatures on mail in ballots......

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The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

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LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

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If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

---

In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

---

GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

---

link with details of the audit procedures used?

---

Below was the process for the random sample audit of 15,200 absentee ballots that showed no evidence of fraud. Note that this audit followed GA's 2-step signature verification process, which verifies signatures both at the application stage and the vote stage.

Investigators broke into 18 two-member inspection teams to evaluate voter signatures, comparing them with voter registration forms, absentee ballot applications, passports and other government documents. The looked for word and letter spacing, slant, size, flourishes and alignment.

When at least one member of a team believed a signature didn't match, the ballot envelope was submitted for further review. Two three-member investigation teams evaluated questionable signatures.

In all, investigation teams scrutinized 396 questionable signatures on ballot envelopes. All but 10 of them were accepted as valid, and then investigators contacted voters to verify those ballots.

Georgia law requires voters to be notified when their absentee ballots are rejected, giving them a chance to verify their identities.

---

In an effort to prove it couldn't have happened, you showed how it did. 10 of 396 is 2.5% of ballots.
2.5% of 1.7m is 43k questionable ballots, in an election decided by 11k votes.
The math here is very clear. If we do a David Boies level hell-for-leather ballot inspection, Trump wins GA.

So many levels of things to be concerned about. 7m ballot request forms mailed out in an electorate of 5.6m people, unsupervised ballot drop boxes, counting irregularities in blue counties, etc..... The assertion there was no fraud, that their could have been no fraud, is fatuous to the point of insulting the intelligence of the listener.

Close election results can create a free-for-all, often decided by the side that wants it most. neverTrumpers didn't want it in the first place, not-so-secretly happy that the election ratified their sensibilities, and they smirked like Pilate at being able to wash their hands without any water. And if we're going to be critical of Trump, lets not spare the 6% of GA Republicans who voted for Biden, costing us two Senate seats. neverTrumpers in GA were the far bigger problems than Democrat voter fraud, frankly..... Kemp & Raffensberger were unwilling to admit any irregularities for fear it would cast a cloud over their future political careers, then quietly amended election law in ways that sharply reduced mail-in voting. I wouldn't offer bodily fluids to those two if their guts were on fire.

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And Biden would get 0 in a State that went 50/50? All votes would be for Trump???

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Didn't say that at all…. Given that those 43k ballots went over 2-1 FOR Biden, it is statistically likely that rejections would take votes AWAY from Biden at a 2-1 ratio. If all 43 are tossed, Trump wins by a couple thousand.

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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The GOP-led audits did, and they did not find a single discrepancy

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LOL not a single discrepancy. can you not hear how silly you sound when you say that?

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If you took the time to study Georgia's system, you wouldn't be surprised. It's 2-step verification. Of course, that does not necessarily mean zero issues, but there aren't material issues that would be discovered in a recount.

---

In a razor-thin election, 11k vote difference, fraud/discrepancies are always at or above the margin. The only question is whether one has the fortitude to start counting hanging chads to eke out the win. GA Republican clearly don't.

---

GA GOP and several audits went above and beyond. Seriously, research it.

---

link with details of the audit procedures used?

---

Below was the process for the random sample audit of 15,200 absentee ballots that showed no evidence of fraud. Note that this audit followed GA's 2-step signature verification process, which verifies signatures both at the application stage and the vote stage.

Investigators broke into 18 two-member inspection teams to evaluate voter signatures, comparing them with voter registration forms, absentee ballot applications, passports and other government documents. The looked for word and letter spacing, slant, size, flourishes and alignment.

When at least one member of a team believed a signature didn't match, the ballot envelope was submitted for further review. Two three-member investigation teams evaluated questionable signatures.

In all, investigation teams scrutinized 396 questionable signatures on ballot envelopes. All but 10 of them were accepted as valid, and then investigators contacted voters to verify those ballots.

Georgia law requires voters to be notified when their absentee ballots are rejected, giving them a chance to verify their identities.

---

I find it interesting that the Trump proponents believe all recounts will only benefit Trump...

---

Mathematical certainty. look very closely at FL 2000. Dems lost the state by 2500 votes. Gore conceded. Then his number crunchers explained how he had a pathway to win - contest ONLY the blue counties, where there were tons of Democrat voters. Why? Because the results of a recount tend to reinforce the outcome of the election. It's statistics. If you win an election 60/40, the questionable ballots tend, statistically, to break down about the same percentages as the overall vote total. So if you only need 3k ballots, just start recounting ballots in blue counties and eventually you will stack up enough to close the margin & win. And that's EXACTLY what they did. GOP did not pick up on the strategy until deadlines had passed and could not count red counties. Took the courts to stop the steal.

In the case of GA, the problems were discrepancies with mail-in ballots, which went Democrat by over 2-1 margins. So if you need to close a 11k vote margin, all you have to do is go to a really big blue county and start micro-inspecting the mail-in vote to find discrepancies. And the discrepancies you do find will tend to break 2-1 Democrat. So you would not be adding to your vote total, as Gore did, but rather eating away at your opponent's vote total.

It was all set up, plain & simple. All they had to do was do it. Only the GA Gov and SecState did not want to admit their election might have had any problems at all, as it would have reflected poorly on their choices on how to run it. So they dug it to defend the results. And then later went back and made changes to the law that sharply curtailed mail-in voting......

I wouldn't offer bodily fluids to Kemp & Raffensberger if their guts were on fire.

---

I remember watching one of Al Gore's guys on the news holding up a ballot and saying, "This is a pregnant chad. We're not asking for pregnant chads to count". A week, later another Gore guy was on the news demanding that the pregnant chad ballots be counted for him.

That whole thing was a sham.