Tesla CEO Elon Musk had previously penciled in a target of $2 trillion for his government efficiency department DOGE—now it seems the goal may be too lofty. https://t.co/TRC40ArJRd

— FORTUNE (@FortuneMagazine) January 9, 2025

boognish_bear said:

---

Tesla CEO Elon Musk had previously penciled in a target of $2 trillion for his government efficiency department DOGE—now it seems the goal may be too lofty. https://t.co/TRC40ArJRd

— FORTUNE (@FortuneMagazine) January 9, 2025

---

No *****..

historian said:

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J.R. said:

---

historian said:

---

boognish_bear said:

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Replace IRS with flat tax. Everyone pays the same rate above 50k. Your first 50k is not taxed, over 50k is taxed at 15%. Zero deductions, zero loopholes. Tax form is 4 lines: https://t.co/fQMkfApy1g

— Zach Von Rosenberg (@ZVR09) November 21, 2024

---

Great idea but make it 10%

Ultimately, I'd like to see the income tax abolished completely. It was never a good idea, makes government more tyrannical, & encourages government to spend too much money on worthless garbage. Ideally, it's none of their business how much money you make.

However, I don't really believe it will happen since it would require a constitutional amendment to repeal the 16th & 75% of the states to ratify. More than 80% of states have their own income taxes and those politicians will not want to kill the cash cow. It also would require lots of people to rethink how things are done: what government does & its relationship to citizens.

---

Everyone would love to see the IT abolished, but that is fantasy. How would the govt function? Listening.

---

Our government functioned effectively for 150 years without an income tax. I was going to add "even winning the Civil War", but the government actually imposed an unconstitutional income tax during the war. Thankfully it ended when the war did. Still, America proved it possible to operate without it gif mist of our history, managing all kinds of issues including dramatic population growth & industrialization.

If the income tax were to be abolished, we would have to radically rethink how our government works. It would have to be smaller & assume far fewer responsibilities. For some of us, that's the point: the federal government does much it has no business doing (ie education) and much of it is arguably unconstitutional. It is unfortunate & perverse that the 10th amendment is generally ignored.

This would mean individuals would have to take more responsibility for their own lives because they could not expect Big Brother to bail them out if they experienced a tragedy of some sort. This is also the point. Government has proven to be unreliable & untrustworthy repeatedly. More often than not, they waste resources or abuse them fraudulently. The people of western North Carolina still have seen little or nothing from FEMA months after the hurricane. More often than not, the government creates the crises in the first place. One only needs to look at our open borders, the illegal immigration debacle, and the crime wave it helped create. There are many more examples.

---

Ok, for all you tariffs alone crowd?

If tariffs were so effective why did they need an income tax?

To say that we didn't need an IT until 1913 is not accurate. They tried several times since 1865 to get an IT but it was unconstitutional.

The IT revenue was so badly needed they passed a Constitutional amendment! You do not pass constitutional amendment with only one small group wanting something. You need basically all of Congress and 3/4 of the States to ratify. There must have been a pretty good reason. Or were they all NeoCon RINOS?

It isn't 1790, we need more than tariffs and excise tax to fund the US

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

J.R. said:

---

historian said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Replace IRS with flat tax. Everyone pays the same rate above 50k. Your first 50k is not taxed, over 50k is taxed at 15%. Zero deductions, zero loopholes. Tax form is 4 lines: https://t.co/fQMkfApy1g

— Zach Von Rosenberg (@ZVR09) November 21, 2024

---

Great idea but make it 10%

Ultimately, I'd like to see the income tax abolished completely. It was never a good idea, makes government more tyrannical, & encourages government to spend too much money on worthless garbage. Ideally, it's none of their business how much money you make.

However, I don't really believe it will happen since it would require a constitutional amendment to repeal the 16th & 75% of the states to ratify. More than 80% of states have their own income taxes and those politicians will not want to kill the cash cow. It also would require lots of people to rethink how things are done: what government does & its relationship to citizens.

---

Everyone would love to see the IT abolished, but that is fantasy. How would the govt function? Listening.

---

Our government functioned effectively for 150 years without an income tax. I was going to add "even winning the Civil War", but the government actually imposed an unconstitutional income tax during the war. Thankfully it ended when the war did. Still, America proved it possible to operate without it gif mist of our history, managing all kinds of issues including dramatic population growth & industrialization.

If the income tax were to be abolished, we would have to radically rethink how our government works. It would have to be smaller & assume far fewer responsibilities. For some of us, that's the point: the federal government does much it has no business doing (ie education) and much of it is arguably unconstitutional. It is unfortunate & perverse that the 10th amendment is generally ignored.

This would mean individuals would have to take more responsibility for their own lives because they could not expect Big Brother to bail them out if they experienced a tragedy of some sort. This is also the point. Government has proven to be unreliable & untrustworthy repeatedly. More often than not, they waste resources or abuse them fraudulently. The people of western North Carolina still have seen little or nothing from FEMA months after the hurricane. More often than not, the government creates the crises in the first place. One only needs to look at our open borders, the illegal immigration debacle, and the crime wave it helped create. There are many more examples.

---

Ok, for all you tariffs alone crowd?

If tariffs were so effective why did they need an income tax?

To say that we didn't need an IT until 1913 is not accurate. They tried several times since 1865 to get an IT but it was unconstitutional.

The IT revenue was so badly needed they passed a Constitutional amendment! You do not pass constitutional amendment with only one small group wanting something. You need basically all of Congress and 3/4 of the States to ratify. There must have been a pretty good reason. Or were they all NeoCon RINOS?

It isn't 1790, we need more than tariffs and excise tax to fund the US

---

We need the Kamala Harris POTUS fund raising team!

What was the rate when first passed?

Married A Horn said:

---

What was the rate when first passed?

---

3% flat on all over $800

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

J.R. said:

---

historian said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Replace IRS with flat tax. Everyone pays the same rate above 50k. Your first 50k is not taxed, over 50k is taxed at 15%. Zero deductions, zero loopholes. Tax form is 4 lines: https://t.co/fQMkfApy1g

— Zach Von Rosenberg (@ZVR09) November 21, 2024

---

Great idea but make it 10%

Ultimately, I'd like to see the income tax abolished completely. It was never a good idea, makes government more tyrannical, & encourages government to spend too much money on worthless garbage. Ideally, it's none of their business how much money you make.

However, I don't really believe it will happen since it would require a constitutional amendment to repeal the 16th & 75% of the states to ratify. More than 80% of states have their own income taxes and those politicians will not want to kill the cash cow. It also would require lots of people to rethink how things are done: what government does & its relationship to citizens.

---

Everyone would love to see the IT abolished, but that is fantasy. How would the govt function? Listening.

---

Our government functioned effectively for 150 years without an income tax. I was going to add "even winning the Civil War", but the government actually imposed an unconstitutional income tax during the war. Thankfully it ended when the war did. Still, America proved it possible to operate without it gif mist of our history, managing all kinds of issues including dramatic population growth & industrialization.

If the income tax were to be abolished, we would have to radically rethink how our government works. It would have to be smaller & assume far fewer responsibilities. For some of us, that's the point: the federal government does much it has no business doing (ie education) and much of it is arguably unconstitutional. It is unfortunate & perverse that the 10th amendment is generally ignored.

This would mean individuals would have to take more responsibility for their own lives because they could not expect Big Brother to bail them out if they experienced a tragedy of some sort. This is also the point. Government has proven to be unreliable & untrustworthy repeatedly. More often than not, they waste resources or abuse them fraudulently. The people of western North Carolina still have seen little or nothing from FEMA months after the hurricane. More often than not, the government creates the crises in the first place. One only needs to look at our open borders, the illegal immigration debacle, and the crime wave it helped create. There are many more examples.

---

Ok, for all you tariffs alone crowd?

If tariffs were so effective why did they need an income tax?

To say that we didn't need an IT until 1913 is not accurate. They tried several times since 1865 to get an IT but it was unconstitutional.

The IT revenue was so badly needed they passed a Constitutional amendment! You do not pass constitutional amendment with only one small group wanting something. You need basically all of Congress and 3/4 of the States to ratify. There must have been a pretty good reason. Or were they all NeoCon RINOS?

It isn't 1790, we need more than tariffs and excise tax to fund the US

---

The government did not need the income tax. They wanted it because it gives them more power. Now, they are also addicted to spending your money.

I don't think the terms neocon & RINO existed 100 years ago when they passed it.

The federal government as currently configured definitely needs more money. But the key point is that far too much that the government does is wasteful, fraudulent, corrupt, tyrannical, & unconstitutional.

Just as important, $36 trillion in debt growing by a trillion every 100 days is unsustainable. It's insane & criminal. It must end, preferably last year (or 20 years ago).

That's $36,000,000,000,000!!

FLBear5630 said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

What was the rate when first passed?

---

3% flat on all over $800

---

It also increased significantly with WWI, was reduced after, grew again during the Depression & WWII, and has fluctuated quite a bit ever since. The top rate after WWII and until the Kennedy-Johnson tax cuts was over 90%! Again, that's insane. Far too much that our government does cannot be justified by any rational standard. The income tax makes all of that much easier.

Personally, I'd like to see the 16th amendment repealed, all income taxes abolished forever, the tyrannical IRS abolished & investigated, and a national sales tax implemented. It would be based on consumption and everyone would know exactly how much of their money the government is taking from them. It's a great way to motivate citizens to hold the politicians accountable. It could even exempt good & medicine so as to help the poorest. It would be a huge boost to the economy and lead to greater efficiency.

historian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

What was the rate when first passed?

---

3% flat on all over $800

---

It also increased significantly with WWI, was reduced after, grew again during the Depression & WWII, and has fluctuated quite a bit ever since. The top rate after WWII and until the Kennedy-Johnson tax cuts was over 90%! Again, that's insane. Far too much that our government does cannot be justified by any rational standard. The income tax makes all of that much easier.

Personally, I'd like to see the 16th amendment repealed, all income taxes abolished forever, the tyrannical IRS abolished & investigated, and a national sales tax implemented. It would be based on consumption and everyone would know exactly how much of their money the government is taking from them. It's a great way to motivate citizens to hold the politicians accountable. It could even exempt good & medicine so as to help the poorest. It would be a huge boost to the economy and lead to greater efficiency.

---

The Govt is necessary and more necessary today than it was in 1776. Time has shortened, it is no longer a 3 month trip to get here. Ever live in remote areas? I lived in Amarillo for a while. No debt, in the 90's, with a transit system. Why? They said "No". Why could they? They were so far away from the Metroplex and Austin no one cared. No news crews. I loved it, decisions made based on real analysis. Check it out now. The insulation is gone. Everything is instantaneous, even with China and Europe. The era of independent, isolationism that would allow what you want is gone. It is a shame, I agree. But we need more centralized Govt, resources and allies now more than ever and it will get worse with AI. Look at the resources AI requires, it is going to have to be State sponsored. A billion is nothing when you are talking needing it's own nuclear reactor to provide power. Tariffs are a drop in the bucket.

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

What was the rate when first passed?

---

3% flat on all over $800

---

It also increased significantly with WWI, was reduced after, grew again during the Depression & WWII, and has fluctuated quite a bit ever since. The top rate after WWII and until the Kennedy-Johnson tax cuts was over 90%! Again, that's insane. Far too much that our government does cannot be justified by any rational standard. The income tax makes all of that much easier.

Personally, I'd like to see the 16th amendment repealed, all income taxes abolished forever, the tyrannical IRS abolished & investigated, and a national sales tax implemented. It would be based on consumption and everyone would know exactly how much of their money the government is taking from them. It's a great way to motivate citizens to hold the politicians accountable. It could even exempt good & medicine so as to help the poorest. It would be a huge boost to the economy and lead to greater efficiency.

---

The Govt is necessary and more necessary today than it was in 1776. Time has shortened, it is no longer a 3 month trip to get here. Ever live in remote areas? I lived in Amarillo for a while. No debt, in the 90's, with a transit system. Why? They said "No". Why could they? They were so far away from the Metroplex and Austin no one cared. No news crews. I loved it, decisions made based on real analysis. Check it out now. The insulation is gone. Everything is instantaneous, even with China and Europe. The era of independent, isolationism that would allow what you want is gone. It is a shame, I agree. But we need more centralized Govt, resources and allies now more than ever and it will get worse with AI. Look at the resources AI requires, it is going to have to be State sponsored. A billion is nothing when you are talking needing it's own nuclear reactor to provide power. Tariffs are a drop in the bucket.

---

We don't need govt to provide those things. If there is a demand for something a free market will supply it. It must be allowed to develop organically. The more we depend on govt to provide for us the more we will be enslaved. I think this is why great minds 200 years ago concluded that socialism is slavery.

AI is a great example: we already have quite a bit of it and it all developed without the direct involvement of govt. Because of the vast energy requirements, some Tech leaders have plans to develop more nuclear energy which shows great promise to provide cheap electricity for the future. It will benefit them along with everyone else. That's capitalism (Adam Smith called it the "invisible hand"). The only role of government in all this is to get out of the way of innovation and entrepreneurship, and to keep the businesses honest. That's also capitalism (laissez faire).

The more the govt gets involved in anything, the more they screw it up. Corrupt politicians & incompetent bureaucrats (even the do-called experts) have different priorities. If the government is involved, we pay mire & get less of whatever they provide. They will always be an impediment to development, innovation, the free market. We can see this everywhere we look. It's plain to see. Government cannot even be trusted to fulfill their basic functions without someone keeping an eye on them. One only needs look at the fires in California or the aftermath of last year's hurricanes to see obvious examples.

It's amazing how often the Founding Fathers are proved correct.

historian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

What was the rate when first passed?

---

3% flat on all over $800

---

It also increased significantly with WWI, was reduced after, grew again during the Depression & WWII, and has fluctuated quite a bit ever since. The top rate after WWII and until the Kennedy-Johnson tax cuts was over 90%! Again, that's insane. Far too much that our government does cannot be justified by any rational standard. The income tax makes all of that much easier.

Personally, I'd like to see the 16th amendment repealed, all income taxes abolished forever, the tyrannical IRS abolished & investigated, and a national sales tax implemented. It would be based on consumption and everyone would know exactly how much of their money the government is taking from them. It's a great way to motivate citizens to hold the politicians accountable. It could even exempt good & medicine so as to help the poorest. It would be a huge boost to the economy and lead to greater efficiency.

---

The Govt is necessary and more necessary today than it was in 1776. Time has shortened, it is no longer a 3 month trip to get here. Ever live in remote areas? I lived in Amarillo for a while. No debt, in the 90's, with a transit system. Why? They said "No". Why could they? They were so far away from the Metroplex and Austin no one cared. No news crews. I loved it, decisions made based on real analysis. Check it out now. The insulation is gone. Everything is instantaneous, even with China and Europe. The era of independent, isolationism that would allow what you want is gone. It is a shame, I agree. But we need more centralized Govt, resources and allies now more than ever and it will get worse with AI. Look at the resources AI requires, it is going to have to be State sponsored. A billion is nothing when you are talking needing it's own nuclear reactor to provide power. Tariffs are a drop in the bucket.

---

We don't need govt to provide those things. If there is a demand for something a free market will supply it. It must be allowed to develop organically. The more we depend on govt to provide for us the more we will be enslaved. I think this is why great minds 200 years ago concluded that socialism is slavery.

AI is a great example: we already have quite a bit of it and it all developed without the direct involvement of govt. Because of the vast energy requirements, some Tech leaders have plans to develop more nuclear energy which shows great promise to provide cheap electricity for the future. It will benefit them along with everyone else. That's capitalism (Adam Smith called it the "invisible hand"). The only role of government in all this is to get out of the way of innovation and entrepreneurship, and to keep the businesses honest. That's also capitalism (laissez faire).

The more the govt gets involved in anything, the more they screw it up. Corrupt politicians & incompetent bureaucrats (even the do-called experts) have different priorities. If the government is involved, we pay mire & get less of whatever they provide. They will always be an impediment to development, innovation, the free market. We can see this everywhere we look. It's plain to see. Government cannot even be trusted to fulfill their basic functions without someone keeping an eye on them. One only needs look at the fires in California or the aftermath of last year's hurricanes to see obvious examples.

It's amazing how often the Founding Fathers are proved correct.

---

For many individuals, sure. For the Nation as a whole having the realities of world, no. For many living in areas having to rely on utilities? No, there has to be standards, even for the private sector, of what are acceptable standards for safety? Or? You get cancer pods, destroyed water sources, smog like Bejing, planes being maintained at different levels, territories and borders not defended, wild fires raging out of control because there is no forest management.

Sorry, we live in a world that the anti-Federalist, because that is really the group you are talking about, could not imagine. The Federalist, they would say told you so...

Where did Vivek go? Haven't heard from him since the visa dust up

Government is unavoidable more than it is necessary. The Founding Fathers had long personal knowledge of how much bureaucracy, corruption, and arrogance are installed into government, and they wanted as little damage as possible to the nation.

The problem now is that there is exponentially more money and power to be had as a government minion, and evil greedy people have found new and fiendish ways to steal from the public while pretending to be "servants".

The government we have today is the nightmare of men like Washington and Adams and Franklin. 90% plus of people in government would be more properly sent to prison.

FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Government is unavoidable more than it is necessary. The Founding Fathers had long personal knowledge of how much bureaucracy, corruption, and arrogance are installed into government, and they wanted as little damage as possible to the nation.

The problem now is that there is exponentially more money and power to be had as a government minion, and evil greedy people have found new and fiendish ways to steal from the public while pretending to be "servants".

The government we have today is the nightmare of men like Washington and Adams and Franklin. 90% plus of people in government would be more properly sent to prison.

---

That is so much rubbish...

90% are just people doing there job. About 1% got your criteria and they are mostly elected.

---

Thanks for confirming you are a government drone. FLBear.

No one who works in private business would post what you just did.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Government is unavoidable more than it is necessary. The Founding Fathers had long personal knowledge of how much bureaucracy, corruption, and arrogance are installed into government, and they wanted as little damage as possible to the nation.

The problem now is that there is exponentially more money and power to be had as a government minion, and evil greedy people have found new and fiendish ways to steal from the public while pretending to be "servants".

The government we have today is the nightmare of men like Washington and Adams and Franklin. 90% plus of people in government would be more properly sent to prison.

---

That is so much rubbish...

90% are just people doing their job. About 1% got your criteria and they are mostly elected.

---

Thanks for confirming you are a government drone. FLBear.

No one who works in private business would post what you just did.

---

Depends on whether they actually know what they are talking about or blathering some political sound bite how it is all the Government's fault.

We have always known that you belong to the latter.

We the People are made up of individuals. If you are going to tolerate govt corruption & tyranny, which is the inevitable result, then we all will become victims at some point. The people of Los Angeles are finding out the hard way.

At least Biden noticed long enough to send more of our money to corrupt Ukraine.

historian said:

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We the People ard made up of individuals. If you are hon b to tolerate govt corruption & tyranny, which is the inevitable result, then we all will become victims at some point. The people of Los Angeles are finding out the hard way.

At least Biden noticed long enough to send more of our money to corrupt Ukraine.

---

You are right, the people out there for too long let "leaders" set direction based on the wrong metrics. Now, when needed there is no structure to respond. Sad, because there are some really good professionals out there. Top notch, but when the organizational structure is not there to support you end up with individual heroic acts that too often are not enough to change the outcome. The scale is too large for an individual.

What pisses me off, the US (when we want to) are the best in the world at structure, logistics and delivery. Or, at least we were. I fear instead of re-establishing the capabilities, we will retreat into the hole of isolationism under the banner of "cost cutting", efficiency, etc... I really hope I am wrong, but 35 years in both private and public the signs I am seeing have never ended well.

Flbear:

1. Do u think we need to get a balanced budget?
2. Do you think we need to start reducing the National Debt?
3. If so to either / both: How?

Married A Horn said:

---

Flbear:

1. Do u think we need to get a balanced budget?
2. Do you think we need to start reducing the National Debt?
3. If so to either / both: How?

---

Yes. We do. But the answer is not cutting for the sake of cutting. How many of Musks Federal Grants do you think will be determined to be "Not Efficient"?

Let me ask you this, is LA worth it the 700k saved to not do the proper maintenance? Is NOLA worth it? The gates that are supposed to block cars during events didn't operate, why wasn't that known before New Year's Eve. At what cost do we cut back services? After all public service workers are lazy felons that should be in jail for stealing from hard working upstanding people like you and these Board members, right? All Government workers are lazy? Stealing from the hard working Developers, Attorneys and Accountants sitting on their asses while these guys are working in crashes, traffic, wastewater, high power, ports, the list goes on.

How much should be cut from forest management so you can get a bigger tax cut after your high priced tax attorney has already hid every penny? All legal, of course. Where do you draw the line? Politicians f-ed up for the part 30 years, now the people that actually keep this Nation going are going to pay. Not you investment bankers, Attorneys and Accountants, but the VA Nurses, DOT Engineers, FAA inspectors, Forest Mgt, Navigable waterways the list is long. Because Vivek, who made his money peddling drugs that don't work until he could get IPOs? What a guy. Yeah, he knows...

By the way I have worked both. I have nothing against the Private sector, I love working with them. I went to the Public side for the last 15 years of my career to actually work to make where I live better, not just ***** about it. The for 25 years were private Engineer firms around the Nation, 15 in operations (traffic ops). I have worked with these lazy f-s running out in traffic to get crap off the road so your Lexus doesn't hit it on I-15. Try that some day and tell me how lazy the CALTRANS guys in the field are. Sick of hearing you cut, cut cut Govt workers are useless *******s talking about **** you know nothing about.

Now you shoud tell me how liberal I am and a stupid Dem, right? That is the usual response.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

Flbear:

1. Do u think we need to get a balanced budget?
2. Do you think we need to start reducing the National Debt?
3. If so to either / both: How?

---

Yes. We do. But the answer is not cutting for the sake of cutting. How many of Musks Federal Grants do you think will be determined to be "Not Efficient"?

Let me ask you this, is LA worth it the 700k saved to not do the proper maintenance? Is NOLA worth it? The gates that are supposed to block cars during events didn't operate, why wasn't that known before New Year's Eve. At what cost do we cut back services? After all public service workers are lazy felons that should be in jail for stealing from hard working upstanding people like you and these Board members, right? All Government workers are lazy? Stealing from the hard working Developers, Attorneys and Accountants sitting on their asses while these guys are working in crashes, traffic, wastewater, high power, ports, the list goes on.

How much should be cut from forest management so you can get a bigger tax cut after your high priced tax attorney has already hid every penny? All legal, of course. Where do you draw the line? Politicians f-ed up for the part 30 years, now the people that actually keep this Nation going are going to pay. Not you investment bankers, Attorneys and Accountants, but the VA Nurses, DOT Engineers, FAA inspectors, Forest Mgt, Navigable waterways the list is long. Because Vivek, who made his money peddling drugs that don't work until he could get IPOs? What a guy. Yeah, he knows...

By the way I have worked both. I have nothing against the Private sector, I love working with them. I went to the Public side for the last 15 years of my career to actually work to make where I live better, not just ***** about it. The for 25 years were private Engineer firms around the Nation, 15 in operations (traffic ops). I have worked with these lazy f-s running out in traffic to get crap off the road so your Lexus doesn't hit it on I-15. Try that some day and tell me how lazy the CALTRANS guys in the field are. Sick of hearing you cut, cut cut Govt workers are useless *******s talking about **** you know nothing about.

Now you shoud tell me how liberal I am and a stupid Dem, right? That is the usual response.

---

Ler me try again on 3, because you just spewed a bunch of things to not cut.

3. How?

You are making arguments for imprisoning the incompetent idiots responsible for these failures. But we all should rethink our faith in the govt.

When the Feds failed North Carolina hurricane victims, the people rallied and helped each other. Outside groups also provided valuable aid: Samaritan's Purse, the Confederate Navy, the Amish, and countless others. They proved that we don't need the govt to take care of us and that we cannot trust them to do it, even when the need is greatest and it's they are paid obscene sums of taxpayer dollars to do it.

The fascists are narrow minded bigots who only care about their tribe, and only when they think it's in their own interest. They cannot even be trusted to help their own! FEMA skipped over homes with Trump signs, Gov "hair gel" Newsom showed up for photo ops but has done nothing of consequence. Biden is just one screw up after another for four years! Remember the Afghan withdrawal?

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Government is unavoidable more than it is necessary. The Founding Fathers had long personal knowledge of how much bureaucracy, corruption, and arrogance are installed into government, and they wanted as little damage as possible to the nation.

The problem now is that there is exponentially more money and power to be had as a government minion, and evil greedy people have found new and fiendish ways to steal from the public while pretending to be "servants".

The government we have today is the nightmare of men like Washington and Adams and Franklin. 90% plus of people in government would be more properly sent to prison.

---

That is so much rubbish...

90% are just people doing their job. About 1% got your criteria and they are mostly elected.

---

Thanks for confirming you are a government drone. FLBear.

No one who works in private business would post what you just did.

---

Depends on whether they actually know what they are talking about or blathering some political sound bite how it is all the Government's fault.

We have always known that you belong to the latter.

---

Actually FLBear, you have shown over and over how you have no interest in the corruption of our government, even as Biden's crimes pile up.

How many members of the House and Senate don't invest in stocks using their inside knowledge? There's your 10 percent ceiling.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Government is unavoidable more than it is necessary. The Founding Fathers had long personal knowledge of how much bureaucracy, corruption, and arrogance are installed into government, and they wanted as little damage as possible to the nation.

The problem now is that there is exponentially more money and power to be had as a government minion, and evil greedy people have found new and fiendish ways to steal from the public while pretending to be "servants".

The government we have today is the nightmare of men like Washington and Adams and Franklin. 90% plus of people in government would be more properly sent to prison.

---

That is so much rubbish...

90% are just people doing their job. About 1% got your criteria and they are mostly elected.

---

Thanks for confirming you are a government drone. FLBear.

No one who works in private business would post what you just did.

---

Depends on whether they actually know what they are talking about or blathering some political sound bite how it is all the Government's fault.

We have always known that you belong to the latter.

---

Actually FLBear, you have shown over and over how you have no interest in the corruption of our government, even as Biden's crimes pile up.

How many members of the House and Senate don't invest in stocks using their inside knowledge? There's your 10 percent ceiling.

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No I haven't. I have said over and over that if there is a crime, prosecute. But do it. Just talking about it is a waste of time. The GOP controlled house investigated and never impeached. Never brought any charges. WHY????? I am all for it, use the processes in place and do it. Yet for some reason all we get is people like you talking, throwing claims out that can never seem to be proven. I know it is a conspiracy, the whole Government is in on it.

Biden is THE WORST President we have had, never said a thing otherwise.

Your posts here tell the story, FLBear.

Married A Horn said:

---

Flbear:

1. Do u think we need to get a balanced budget?
2. Do you think we need to start reducing the National Debt?
3. If so to either / both: How?

---

Absolutely.
Absolutely.

Well we can start with stop giving away a trillion dollars not to work, both Biden and Trump did that during COVID. I am all for stopping give aways. Put them to work for whatever benefit they receive.

Bottomline is that short of a dedicated revenue source that is legally tied to debt reduction, a penny sales tax for example, it isn't coming down. You are not paying it off cutting a percent here or there in spending cuts ain't gonna do it.

A balanced budget Amendment, in FL the State Constitution requires a balanced budget. Fed needs one.


Cutting services and gutting the Fed of competent employees is not the answer. Or, we can do what CA did and cut fire services, stop maintenance on infrastructure, Forest MGt, fisheries, etc...

We have to cut spending.

A lot of it.

Only a Democrat would pretend we can sustain the garbage programs we have seen flood federal spending since 1980.

Let's cut the federal government of all incompetent employees, of which there are plenty, and as gif those who are competent get rid of them if their job is nonessential. The govt does plenty that they really gave no business doing, have proven that they cannot be trusted to do well, or is unconstitutional. Often it's more than one.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

Flbear:

1. Do u think we need to get a balanced budget?
2. Do you think we need to start reducing the National Debt?
3. If so to either / both: How?

---

Absolutely.
Absolutely.

Well we can start with stop giving away a trillion dollars not to work, both Biden and Trump did that during COVID. I am all for stopping give aways. Put them to work for whatever benefit they receive.

Bottomline is that short of a dedicated revenue source that is legally tied to debt reduction, a penny sales tax for example, it isn't coming down. You are not paying it off cutting a percent here or there in spending cuts ain't gonna do it.

A balanced budget Amendment, in FL the State Constitution requires a balanced budget. Fed needs one.


Cutting services and gutting the Fed of competent employees is not the answer. Or, we can do what CA did and cut fire services, stop maintenance on infrastructure, Forest MGt, fisheries, etc...

---

More taxes? No cuts?

You're out. You've lost all credibility...not that u had any to begin with.

Married A Horn said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

Flbear:

1. Do u think we need to get a balanced budget?
2. Do you think we need to start reducing the National Debt?
3. If so to either / both: How?

---

Absolutely.
Absolutely.

Well we can start with stop giving away a trillion dollars not to work, both Biden and Trump did that during COVID. I am all for stopping give aways. Put them to work for whatever benefit they receive.

Bottomline is that short of a dedicated revenue source that is legally tied to debt reduction, a penny sales tax for example, it isn't coming down. You are not paying it off cutting a percent here or there in spending cuts ain't gonna do it.

A balanced budget Amendment, in FL the State Constitution requires a balanced budget. Fed needs one.


Cutting services and gutting the Fed of competent employees is not the answer. Or, we can do what CA did and cut fire services, stop maintenance on infrastructure, Forest MGt, fisheries, etc...

---

More taxes? No cuts?

You're out. You've lost all credibility...not that u had any to begin with.

---

Ok, let's talk credibility.

Let's talk policy first. Seems to me two pieces of legislation would help.
1- Balanced Budget Amendment
2 - Debt level tied to GDP - Debt-to-GDP Transparency and Stabilization Act was in the House, but in all honesty I did not follow where it went. Tying the Debt to a percent of GDP would keep us in the sweet spot of debt.

Debt
Now, let's talk paying down the debt we have, which if I remember is about 97% of GDP. So, we are not talking paying down the entire debt, no Nation does that. Hell, Great Britian is still carrying Napoleanic War debt and as you can see by history they had up times and down times in that period. Like anything else, if managed it is not an issue.

So, we are at approximately at 34.6T debt, which represents 97% of GDP. We need to get to 25.7T to get within the acceptable range of debt ( I am saying 75%, a little more conservative than the 77% the House bill calls. Got to know your audience.), based on current GDP. So, that is about 9T. All the Tariff's, Consumption and VAT changes you make it will not make a difference IF it is not dedicated to paying down that 9T number AND it does not increase.

So, how do we do it? Let's say we would need 10% across the Board cut in spending to make a dent, which is 690B dollars a year. It would take 31,623 years to pay off 9T with making a 10% cut across the Board. That is a big number, most spending cuts exercises are usually in the less than 4% range. But, I have faith in you Married. You will get it done, because YOU have credibility.

So, how to we keep that in place every year for 31,000 years? Sorry, as much as I know you are credible and competent (BU grads are competent) you are not doing it without more revenue that is dedicated by law to that one purpose.

Either we are growing the economy so that 34.6T is 75% of the GDP.

Or, we are taxing somewhere ALONG with your spending cuts (Keep in mind it all has to come from discretionary spending which is 1.7T, not the total budget).

Welcome to Public Finance. What you consider Liberal, for many Conservatives is dealing with reality and still providing safe roads, food, air travel, fire services, etc... Someone said that the Fed does too much just eliminate it, who takes it over and pays for it? What you save on Income Tax will become State, City and Local taxes. There is no way around it.

(these numbers are not exact and not meant to be. This is a policy discussion, we are working with hand grenades here.)

This needs a million stars

US debt is currently $36.3 trillion and growing at an insane rate:

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

Oldbear83 said:

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First off, the debt is not 97% of GDP, it's at 121% of GDP.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/gfdegdq188S

Second, there are at least two big problems with your Balanced Budget Amendment. First, you are seriously expecting the same people creating the problem to be part of the solution. That dog won't leave the kennel. let alone hunt. And second, you need 38 states to ratify that amendment, and considering how many states have become addicted to that pork, it just won't happen.

Next, there is no 'sweet spot of debt'. More is bad, excusable when we have a genuine crisis like WW2 but we have not had a reason to increase the debt in my lifetime.

Moving on, no one here has suggested paying off the entire debt. so just put away that lie. What we have, however, is a level of debt that is making it near-impossible for government to fund essential functions because of the interest for debt already on the books.

And I don't give a rat's ass how much debt some other country has, that's a piss-poor argument for saying we should accept even half the spending we are seeing from the government at every level.

Also, it's a plain fact that the government is getting more money from taxpayers than ever before in History, so the idea that higher taxes are a good way to start is Biden-level idiocy.

Budgets need to cut to a point where pain is obvious. We could do what Carter did, and zero-base the budget, which would cause an explosion of complaint but at least we could see specifically what Congress wants to spend our money on, but a good start is to tell every department their budget is going down 10 percent and then then let them defend what they really need in a public debate.

The government has planned spending in secret for far too long.

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Believe it or not, there are only a few things we don't agree on.

I made no argument for accepting any specific spending, I said we need a balanced budget amendment. What is in that amount is up to the elected members of Congress that is their job.

And there is a sweet spot on debt, that is the question. What is that level needs to be tied to statute so it has to be followed. My example of 75% of GDP was to illustrate that even getting to that level is a pipe dream without additional revenue. Of the 6T+ budget only 1.7T is discretionary. Of that, much is dedicated to Defense about 800B of that 300B is O&M and 140B is personnel. So, really it is 1.2T.

Approximately half of federal discretionary spending is allocated to defense.

Non-Defense - Federal budget discretionary spending, 2023

Certain veterans'benefits$131B
Education, training, employment, and social services $125B
Transportation$115B
Health$100B
Income security$100B
International affairs$83B
Administration ofJustice$74B
Natural resources and environment$48B
Community and regional development $41B
General science, space, and technology$41B

So, there is about 50B Non-Defense that is really on the table. Because the others, even if cut from the Fed you will pay State or Local. Maybe we cut 100B out of Defense, so you are looking at 150B. And even with that, there will be hurt. But, I expect you will say cut the things that don't impact you. You are just that way. So, with 150B it will be forever.

The only way is to increase the size of GDB and MAINTAIN spending at current levels with a reallocation. That is reality. But keep living in your dream world. Even Musk in coming around to reality, he is not hitting anywhere near 2T, maybe they will hit 1T (maybe). By the way, that is less than my 10% analysis you laughed at.

Im still not seeing what big government tax and spend liberal FLBear suggests we cut.