Mothra said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Johnny Bear said:

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I respect the Catholic Church and their brand of Christianity. Possibly some of this comes from not being raised as a Catholic and never being a Catholic, but having said that, I will never understand the belief in a segregated special group of Christians defined as "Saints" that are also worthy of worship and being prayed to or through. Certainly there are historically people worthy of being revered and respected for their faith and their related works (obviously Mary the Mother of Christ is one of them), but taking it to the point of virtual worship isn't Biblical and borders on idolatry.

---

Not a Catholic but this is my understanding

the siants arent worshiped, they are considered a known pathway to whom God/Jesus/the holy spirit worked through during their life on earth. By praying to them, people are asking the saints to pray with them much like you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you when the need arises.

Saints are considered to be able to relay and ampliphy your prayers as somebody who stands closer to God/Jesus than the average human.

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I've heard the same explanation and am married into a Catholic family. My response to this would be, why was the curtain in the temple torn from top to bottom and by whom was it torn?

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Catholic tradition isnit was sewn by Mary as a child as she had pledged her life to chastity which is why shes ever Virgin and Joseph never slept with her and likely was much older and a widower and Jesus has no brothers or sisters as an only child

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Another extra biblical Catholic belief found nowhere in scripture.

I'm seeing a pattern here..

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Why doesnt Genesis mention god's first creations: dinosaurs?

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I believe it does.

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Maybe they never read the Book of Job.


Makes sense, Mary is not mentioned there, so they see no value in it.

" So the Abrahamic covenant still exists but only applies to Messianic Jews"

Nope.

Please pay attention to what's written and try again.

Mothra said:

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BUDOS said:

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Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am curious what kind of church you attend.

---

A non-denominational Christian church.

BUDOS said:

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Mothra said:

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BUDOS said:

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Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am curious what kind of church you attend.

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A non-denominational Christian church.

---

Interesting.

Does your church have a mission statement or doctrine of belief, so folks know how you roll?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BUDOS said:

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Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

So, you would be good if Catholic's called her the "Queen Mother" of Heaven?

Seems we spend a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter in the greater scheme.

Some poor person that marked Mary Queen of Heaven on their calendar or went to mass on a Holy Day is going to hell for idiolatry even though they lived their life following Jesus's two greatest commandmants.


Yet the one that continually falls and cheats on their wife is forgiven each week just by saying I am a sinner...

That is consistent...

---

Florida, respectfully, you really need to start reading better, my friend. The title of this thread, if you recall, was this: "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And now you're arguing about whether Mary should be called the "Queen Mother"? Oy vey. Your reading comprehension at times is atrocious, which results in inane posts such as this.

Again, the idea that Mary is a queen who should be honored on the same plane as God is what I take issue with. I do that because that is clear heresy. I would not expect a non-Christian, which I believe is what you have admitted you are, to understand or agree, and can see why someone not of the faith would find these disagreements silly. They're not for believers for the reason I just stated.

And for the record, I never said or suggested that anyone who believes Mary should be queen is going to hell. Again, this is your atrocious reading comprehension. Do better.

---

You really take things too seriously.

Yes it is about Mary. I provided where it comes from and asked you a question on what would you call the mother of a King. And asked if you would have a problem with "Queen Mother"?

Others on here have spoken about idioligy and worshiping an idol. I think one person, in this thread, even said it was the definition. I am sorry you took it as an attack, but it was in context with string of posts.

It is a serious question, as we have Protestants saying the Catholic partake in idol worship which is a mortal sin. Sorry, respectfully I don't think my question is out of line for the context of this thread of posts on Mary and everything said.

---

Simply put: if you don't see the problem with praying and bowing to images of Mary in church, singing hymns to her, dedicating churches to her, going to her for salvation and crediting her with salvation, saying that salvation can only come through her, and calling her the "ALL HOLY ONE", "Mediatrix", and "Queen of Heaven" (the name given to a pagan mother goddess in the Old Testament)....

.... then you are not a true Christian. Period. You're only fooling yourself. If you truly can't see the blatant heresy and idolatry there, then you're in total darkness. I don't think saying any of this is controversial whatsoever. Every true Christian is indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God, and the Spirit makes it crystal clear to them that all that is evil, and from the Devil.

I don't say this to hate or to fight you and others. I say it to give it to you STRAIGHT. The truth needs to be told, and those within the Roman Catholic and Orthodox systems who are truly believers in Jesus need to WAKE UP and GET OUT. Ancient pagan mother goddess worship never went away - it found itself a Christian cloak to disguise itself with - the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

---

Tarp,
Okay, I don't disagree with some of what you have in the above post as well as some others. As you do in the above post, you point out where you believe someone is wrong, oftentimes presenting an articulate argument.
Sometimes we respond and continue the debate, and others just move on. That seems pretty basic, as it does that you so often take on a mean and adversarial attitude. In many, if not all cases, in my opinion you greatly diminish the effect of your comments, which I think are often valid. You know this yet you have apparently decided that you enjoy making such scathing remarks, knowing that you are damaging any effort of persuading the other party to even listen to what you post, much less have the attitude to sincerely reflect upon it.

So, why do you take such pleasure in posting your comments in such a manner that so often accomplishes the opposite of what you could do with all that energy and knowledge? It is almost like you are someone perceiving your mission and the disparaging responses you receive as some sort of justified persecution.

As you lick your chops preparing for a response, know that we all look forward to your typical sarcastic, vitriol, which accomplishes so much of what you apparently see as your mission. A mission which so often fails, and that Tarp, all too often, is your fault, in my opinion.

Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BUDOS said:

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Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

Another lie or ignorance. Ive never said Mary deserves same veneretion as God. Prove that please.

Thanks in advance.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

Nowhere in those verses does Jesus call Mary a Queen, nor ever tell anyone to pray to her.

Kind of a big problem there .

Oldbear83 said:

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Nowhere in those verses does Jesus call Mary a Queen, nor ever tell anyone to pray to her.

Kind of a big problem there .

---

Pfffft nah. Your logic breaks down hundreds of times. Great job Luther. Confusing some to their own demise

But even Luther venerated Mary greatly. You gots some swiss cheese with all your logic holes

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Nowhere in those verses does Jesus call Mary a Queen, nor ever tell anyone to pray to her.

Kind of a big problem there .

---

Pfffft nah. Your logic breaks down hundreds of times. Great job Luther. Confusing some to their own demise

But even Luther venerated Mary greatly. You gots some swiss cheese with all your logic holes

---

Oldbear83 said:

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Nowhere in those verses does Jesus call Mary a Queen, nor ever tell anyone to pray to her.

Kind of a big problem there .

---

Ok, so only what Jesus says matters? I will go as far as the Gospels?

What "book" did Jesus leave? Did he even direct anyone to write it down and add to the Torah to form a new "Book"?

If not, how did Jesus expect his message to go forward? He hated the Pharisees, if there is one message besides Love God first, it is NOT to be a Pharisee...

So, we will discuss from just what Jesus said. Cool..

FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Stop trying to use man-created titles & ideas and apply them to God. He is far above your human understanding.

Besides, your question doesn't even hold up to human standards.
The mother of King Charles was never a queen.
There have been plenty of kings who were born of commoners who never had a title.

Show me the scripture which calls Mary the Queen of Heaven.

FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

So, you would be good if Catholic's called her the "Queen Mother" of Heaven?

Seems we spend a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter in the greater scheme.

Some poor person that marked Mary Queen of Heaven on their calendar or went to mass on a Holy Day is going to hell for idiolatry even though they lived their life following Jesus's two greatest commandmants.


Yet the one that continually falls and cheats on their wife is forgiven each week just by saying I am a sinner...

That is consistent...

---

Florida, respectfully, you really need to start reading better, my friend. The title of this thread, if you recall, was this: "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And now you're arguing about whether Mary should be called the "Queen Mother"? Oy vey. Your reading comprehension at times is atrocious, which results in inane posts such as this.

Again, the idea that Mary is a queen who should be honored on the same plane as God is what I take issue with. I do that because that is clear heresy. I would not expect a non-Christian, which I believe is what you have admitted you are, to understand or agree, and can see why someone not of the faith would find these disagreements silly. They're not for believers for the reason I just stated.

And for the record, I never said or suggested that anyone who believes Mary should be queen is going to hell. Again, this is your atrocious reading comprehension. Do better.

---

You really take things too seriously.

Yes it is about Mary. I provided where it comes from and asked you a question on what would you call the mother of a King. And asked if you would have a problem with "Queen Mother"?

Others on here have spoken about idioligy and worshiping an idol. I think one person, in this thread, even said it was the definition. I am sorry you took it as an attack, but it was in context with string of posts.

It is a serious question, as we have Protestants saying the Catholic partake in idol worship which is a mortal sin. Sorry, respectfully I don't think my question is out of line for the context of this thread of posts on Mary and everything said.

---

Just FYI, Protestants don't believe in mortal vs venial sins. That is a made up, false doctrine of Roman Catholics.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

I don't agree with the "devil created a miracle" comments.... but it's funny that you cannot see the logic in the devil creating a false sign in order to convert millions into a false religion that worships a human woman.
The entire lady of Guadalupe incident was not a miracle of God. There is no way that God would command His people to build a shrine to a human woman, and dedicate their lives to her.
Maybe it was created by the devil, but most likely it was created by a man who was struggling to bring converts into his Catholic religion.
It's not like Catholics haven't adopted local pagan religions in the past, in order to make it easier for people to "convert" to Catholicism. It's happened many times throughout history. But I'm sure the nuns never told you about it.

King Charles mother was Queen Elizabeth. (sorry, couldn't resist)

We are using man-made titles, good point. How else would you describe to men (men/women/children)?

Jesus consistently spoke in parables and used analogous methods to convey a point. If you took Jesus literally you would think he was a farmer talking of livestock, mustard trees, and fields. But, those that listen know he was talking of more.

Building off of John 19? How would those in the times of Rome and Kings describe honoring someone? Calling them royalty, perhaps? How would you get that point across, 1500-2000 years ago?

Is it so outlandish that the used the term "Queen"? The point was to get people to understand and at the time most were uneducated. Not to speak as the Pharisees that only they could understand.

Any prayer I have ever heard, 62 years a Catholic, is as an intermediary, which by definition is below the top. A concept that is as old as time and is even described in the Bible with Herod's wife interceding on Chris's behalf. There was no illusion that she was an equal with Pilate.

As ALL the Catholics on here have told you, we do not put Mary on the same level as Jesus or God. We should know.

This conversation brings up some very interesting points. How literal is the Bible? If Jesus spoke in parables to get across messages, should it meant to be taken literal. For that matter, the same with the "man-made" titles? How literal? Do you really think that people think there is a throne like on earth in heaven? Maybe it is a form we can understand?

But, I have a tendency to be a bit more abstract and think in concepts, not literal interpretation.

ShooterTX said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

I don't agree with the "devil created a miracle" comments.... but it's funny that you cannot see the logic in the devil creating a false sign in order to convert millions into a false religion that worships a human woman.
The entire lady of Guadalupe incident was not a miracle of God. There is no way that God would command His people to build a shrine to a human woman, and dedicate their lives to her.
Maybe it was created by the devil, but most likely it was created by a man who was struggling to bring converts into his Catholic religion.
It's not like Catholics haven't adopted local pagan religions in the past, in order to make it easier for people to "convert" to Catholicism. It's happened many times throughout history. But I'm sure the nuns never told you about it.

---

Of course they taught about it. Read anything on the Jesuits. The point was to bring the message to the rest of the world. You speak their language so they understand and learn. Using what they had is a natural technique. We saw how well the Crusades and Inquisition worked, give me using a Christmas Tree...

FLBear5630 said:

---

King Charles mother was Queen Elizabeth. (sorry, couldn't resist)

We are using man-made titles, good point. How else would you describe to men (men/women/children)?

Jesus consistently spoke in parables and used analogous methods to convey a point. If you took Jesus literally you would think he was a farmer talking of livestock, mustard trees, and fields. But, those that listen know he was talking of more.

Building off of John 19? How would those in the times of Rome and Kings describe honoring someone? Calling them royalty, perhaps? How would you get that point across, 1500-2000 years ago?

Is it so outlandish that the used the term "Queen"? The point was to get people to understand and at the time most were uneducated. Not to speak as the Pharisees that only they could understand.

Any prayer I have ever heard, 62 years a Catholic, is as an intermediary, which by definition is below the top. A concept that is as old as time and is even described in the Bible with Herod's wife interceding on Chris's behalf. There was no illusion that she was an equal with Pilate.

As ALL the Catholics on here have told you, we do not put Mary on the same level as Jesus or God. We should know.

This conversation brings up some very interesting points. How literal is the Bible? If Jesus spoke in parables to get across messages, should it meant to be taken literal. For that matter, the same with the "man-made" titles? How literal? Do you really think that people think there is a throne like on earth in heaven? Maybe it is a form we can understand?

But, I have a tendency to be a bit more abstract and think in concepts, not literal interpretation.

---

Sorry.
I said Charles but I was thinking of his son who will be King but his mother was only a princess.

The point is that none of this matters as there is no scripture anywhere which states that the Kingdom of God has a queen.

Some parts of the Bible are parables. Jesus spoke in parables, but he also made it clear when he was talking in parables.

Other parts are not parables. The scriptures describe throne in heaven for God, Jesus and the elders. It does not say that these descriptions are parables, so yes... i do believe that there will be a throne in heaven.

I have talked with many Catholics over many decades, and many of them have said that they were taught that Mary has a thrown in heaven right next to Jesus.
These are the kinds of things that are taught in many catholic schools.

To your point Mary being an intermediary, the Bible makes it very clear that we have only one intermediary and that is Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
John 14:6
Hebrews 9:15
Galatians 3: 19-20
There are so many verses which make it very clear that Jesus is our mediator, and not a single one that makes an exception for Mary to also be our mediator too.

I know you have said that you hate Paul, but Peter himself instructed the early Christians to obey his letters, and he even called them scriptures.
2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV
[15] Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. [16] He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

You Catholics like to falsely claim that Peter was the first pope, and yet you also like to ignore much of Paul's letters even though your "first pope" tells you otherwise.

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

King Charles mother was Queen Elizabeth. (sorry, couldn't resist)

We are using man-made titles, good point. How else would you describe to men (men/women/children)?

Jesus consistently spoke in parables and used analogous methods to convey a point. If you took Jesus literally you would think he was a farmer talking of livestock, mustard trees, and fields. But, those that listen know he was talking of more.

Building off of John 19? How would those in the times of Rome and Kings describe honoring someone? Calling them royalty, perhaps? How would you get that point across, 1500-2000 years ago?

Is it so outlandish that the used the term "Queen"? The point was to get people to understand and at the time most were uneducated. Not to speak as the Pharisees that only they could understand.

Any prayer I have ever heard, 62 years a Catholic, is as an intermediary, which by definition is below the top. A concept that is as old as time and is even described in the Bible with Herod's wife interceding on Chris's behalf. There was no illusion that she was an equal with Pilate.

As ALL the Catholics on here have told you, we do not put Mary on the same level as Jesus or God. We should know.

This conversation brings up some very interesting points. How literal is the Bible? If Jesus spoke in parables to get across messages, should it meant to be taken literal. For that matter, the same with the "man-made" titles? How literal? Do you really think that people think there is a throne like on earth in heaven? Maybe it is a form we can understand?

But, I have a tendency to be a bit more abstract and think in concepts, not literal interpretation.

---

Sorry.
I said Charles but I was thinking of his son who will be King but his mother was only a princess.

The point is that none of this matters as there is no scripture anywhere which states that the Kingdom of God has a queen.

Some parts of the Bible are parables. Jesus spoke in parables, but he also made it clear when he was talking in parables.

Other parts are not parables. The scriptures describe throne in heaven for God, Jesus and the elders. It does not say that these descriptions are parables, so yes... i do believe that there will be a throne in heaven.

I have talked with many Catholics over many decades, and many of them have said that they were taught that Mary has a thrown in heaven right next to Jesus.
These are the kinds of things that are taught in many catholic schools.

To your point Mary being an intermediary, the Bible makes it very clear that we have only one intermediary and that is Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
John 14:6
Hebrews 9:15
Galatians 3: 19-20
There are so many verses which make it very clear that Jesus is our mediator, and not a single one that makes an exception for Mary to also be our mediator too.

I know you have said that you hate Paul, but Peter himself instructed the early Christians to obey his letters, and he even called them scriptures.
2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV
[15] Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. [16] He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

You Catholics like to falsely claim that Peter was the first pope, and yet you also like to ignore much of Paul's letters even though your "first pope" tells you otherwise.

---

I was teasing about King Charles, I get the point.

This all reminds me of a joke a the Pastor of the convent told me years ago in Amarillo where we used to go to mass.

"A man arrives at the gates of heaven. St. Peter asks, "Religion?"

The man says, "Catholic." St. Peter looks down his list, and says, "Go to room 24, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

Another man arrives at the gates of heaven. "Religion?"

"Jewish."

"Go to room 18, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

A third man arrives at the gates. "Religion?"

"Moslem."

"Go to room 11, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

The man says, "I can understand there being different rooms for different religions, but why must I be quiet when I pass room 8?"

St. Peter tells him, "Well the Protestants are in room 8, and they think they're the only ones here."


I have heard it different ways, but you get the point. We all think we are right. Some just are a bit more inclusive than others. I Have Wisconsin Synod Lutheran in-laws for 40 years now, they make you look like BWA (using a group you may know that is very liberal).

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

Another lie or ignorance. Ive never said Mary deserves same veneretion as God. Prove that please.

Thanks in advance.

---

Um, you do remember the title of your thread do you not? "Imagine willfully not trying tohonor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

If you didn't mean to suggest that Mary should be honored as much as our Lord, you should'nt have said it. But you are an awful communicator.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in those verses does Jesus call Mary a Queen, nor ever tell anyone to pray to her.

Kind of a big problem there .

---

Pfffft nah. Your logic breaks down hundreds of times. Great job Luther. Confusing some to their own demise

But even Luther venerated Mary greatly. You gots some swiss cheese with all your logic holes

---

It's incredible to me that you feel that this is a logical or cogent retort.

You're really bad at debate

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

So in none of these verses does scripture describe Mary as queen, much less say she should be honored on equal footing with the lord.

You're just making crap up at this point. It's kind of evil what you're doing actually.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

So in none of these verses does scripture describe Mary as queen, much less say she should be honored on equal footing with the lord.

You're just making crap up at this point. It's kind of evil what you're doing actually.

---

Evil?

You keep hanging onto Scripture alone. Catholics do not subscribe to Scripture alone. So, what is your point in continuing to ask for the same thing? There are scriptures that various people on here have identified that support the position that the Catholic Church takes. If you are looking for a verbatim translation, you are not going to find it.

The question I have with your line of thinking is - Is the Bible supposed to be taken literally? Was there a Mustard Tree? Where is the field that the person buried their talents? How do you bury your talents? Jesus was a Lamb? Or was he a loaf of bread? I thought he was a Carpenter not a Shepard? The crown of 12 stars was not really a crown.

Confusing, but they must exist exactly as written as we know the Gospels are literal and only meant to be taken that way? You have told us so, if it is not in the Bible exactly as written it is not true.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

So in none of these verses does scripture describe Mary as queen, much less say she should be honored on equal footing with the lord.

You're just making crap up at this point. It's kind of evil what you're doing actually.

---

Evil?

You keep hanging onto Scripture alone. Catholics do not subscribe to Scripture alone. So, what is your point in continuing to ask for the same thing? There are scriptures that various people on here have identified that support the position that the Catholic Church takes. If you are looking for a verbatim translation, you are not going to find it.

The question I have with your line of thinking is - Is the Bible supposed to be taken literally? Was there a Mustard Tree? Where is the field that the person buried their talents? How do you bury your talents? Jesus was a Lamb? Or was he a loaf of bread? I thought he was a Carpenter not a Shepard? The crown of 12 stars was not really a crown.

Confusing, but they must exist exactly as written as we know the Gospels are literal and only meant to be taken that way? You have told us so, if it is not in the Bible exactly as written it is not true.

---

The problem with interjecting yourself in a conversation is you don't understand the context. That is exactly what happened here.

If you will read the conversation between myself and Freedom, you will see that he claims that the "exact words of scripture" support the position that Mary is queen and should be honored on an equal footing with the Lord.

Yes, I am very much aware the Catholics use extra scripture sources to come up with their misguided beliefs. If you would've read this entire post, you would've seen me make that point on the number of occasions. That is not in dispute.

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

So in none of these verses does scripture describe Mary as queen, much less say she should be honored on equal footing with the lord.

You're just making crap up at this point. It's kind of evil what you're doing actually.

---

Evil?

You keep hanging onto Scripture alone. Catholics do not subscribe to Scripture alone. So, what is your point in continuing to ask for the same thing? There are scriptures that various people on here have identified that support the position that the Catholic Church takes. If you are looking for a verbatim translation, you are not going to find it.

The question I have with your line of thinking is - Is the Bible supposed to be taken literally? Was there a Mustard Tree? Where is the field that the person buried their talents? How do you bury your talents? Jesus was a Lamb? Or was he a loaf of bread? I thought he was a Carpenter not a Shepard? The crown of 12 stars was not really a crown.

Confusing, but they must exist exactly as written as we know the Gospels are literal and only meant to be taken that way? You have told us so, if it is not in the Bible exactly as written it is not true.

---

The problem with interjecting yourself in a conversation is you don't understand the context. That is exactly what happened here.

If you will read the conversation between myself and Freedom, you will see that he claims that the "exact words of scripture" support the position that Mary is queen and should be honored on an equal footing with the Lord.

Yes, I am very much aware the Catholics use extra scripture sources to come up with their misguided beliefs. If you would've read this entire post, you would've seen me make that point on the number of occasions. That is not in dispute.

---

Got you. Trouble sometimes with this forum, especially on a phone is you only see the last post. Many times the post is not directed to the author, but to the thread as a whole. Sorry if I misunderstood.

BUDOS said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

So, you would be good if Catholic's called her the "Queen Mother" of Heaven?

Seems we spend a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter in the greater scheme.

Some poor person that marked Mary Queen of Heaven on their calendar or went to mass on a Holy Day is going to hell for idiolatry even though they lived their life following Jesus's two greatest commandmants.


Yet the one that continually falls and cheats on their wife is forgiven each week just by saying I am a sinner...

That is consistent...

---

Florida, respectfully, you really need to start reading better, my friend. The title of this thread, if you recall, was this: "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And now you're arguing about whether Mary should be called the "Queen Mother"? Oy vey. Your reading comprehension at times is atrocious, which results in inane posts such as this.

Again, the idea that Mary is a queen who should be honored on the same plane as God is what I take issue with. I do that because that is clear heresy. I would not expect a non-Christian, which I believe is what you have admitted you are, to understand or agree, and can see why someone not of the faith would find these disagreements silly. They're not for believers for the reason I just stated.

And for the record, I never said or suggested that anyone who believes Mary should be queen is going to hell. Again, this is your atrocious reading comprehension. Do better.

---

You really take things too seriously.

Yes it is about Mary. I provided where it comes from and asked you a question on what would you call the mother of a King. And asked if you would have a problem with "Queen Mother"?

Others on here have spoken about idioligy and worshiping an idol. I think one person, in this thread, even said it was the definition. I am sorry you took it as an attack, but it was in context with string of posts.

It is a serious question, as we have Protestants saying the Catholic partake in idol worship which is a mortal sin. Sorry, respectfully I don't think my question is out of line for the context of this thread of posts on Mary and everything said.

---

Simply put: if you don't see the problem with praying and bowing to images of Mary in church, singing hymns to her, dedicating churches to her, going to her for salvation and crediting her with salvation, saying that salvation can only come through her, and calling her the "ALL HOLY ONE", "Mediatrix", and "Queen of Heaven" (the name given to a pagan mother goddess in the Old Testament)....

.... then you are not a true Christian. Period. You're only fooling yourself. If you truly can't see the blatant heresy and idolatry there, then you're in total darkness. I don't think saying any of this is controversial whatsoever. Every true Christian is indwelled by the Holy Spirit of God, and the Spirit makes it crystal clear to them that all that is evil, and from the Devil.

I don't say this to hate or to fight you and others. I say it to give it to you STRAIGHT. The truth needs to be told, and those within the Roman Catholic and Orthodox systems who are truly believers in Jesus need to WAKE UP and GET OUT. Ancient pagan mother goddess worship never went away - it found itself a Christian cloak to disguise itself with - the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

---

Tarp,
Okay, I don't disagree with some of what you have in the above post as well as some others. As you do in the above post, you point out where you believe someone is wrong, oftentimes presenting an articulate argument.
Sometimes we respond and continue the debate, and others just move on. That seems pretty basic, as it does that you so often take on a mean and adversarial attitude. In many, if not all cases, in my opinion you greatly diminish the effect of your comments, which I think are often valid. You know this yet you have apparently decided that you enjoy making such scathing remarks, knowing that you are damaging any effort of persuading the other party to even listen to what you post, much less have the attitude to sincerely reflect upon it.

So, why do you take such pleasure in posting your comments in such a manner that so often accomplishes the opposite of what you could do with all that energy and knowledge? It is almost like you are someone perceiving your mission and the disparaging responses you receive as some sort of justified persecution.

As you lick your chops preparing for a response, know that we all look forward to your typical sarcastic, vitriol, which accomplishes so much of what you apparently see as your mission. A mission which so often fails, and that Tarp, all too often, is your fault, in my opinion.

---

Why do you hate it so much when people tell the truth? Why do you spend an inordinate amount of effort attacking those who are telling the truth, by attempting to marginalize their witness by your pathetic claims of "mean", "authoritarian", "narcissistic" tone?

All while patting others who are supporting pure heresy and idolatry on the back, telling them "there, there now. You're okay, just ignore their warnings"?

You are an opponent to the truth. And doing so, by the way, with a "mean tone". So a hypocrite as well. And that tells us everything we need to know.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Nowhere in those verses does Jesus call Mary a Queen, nor ever tell anyone to pray to her.

Kind of a big problem there .

---

Pfffft nah. Your logic breaks down hundreds of times. Great job Luther. Confusing some to their own demise

But even Luther venerated Mary greatly. You gots some swiss cheese with all your logic holes

---

So let's review for those scoring at home:


I noted that Scripture does not make Mary a Queen, nor does Jesus ever tell us to pray to her.

Fre3dombear responded as follows:

'Pfffft nah.'

Empty expletive, non-substantial.

'Your logic breaks down hundreds of times.'

Unsupported claim, and no clear applicability to my statement. Fre3dombear does not even dispute my points.

'Great job Luther.'

Apparently an attempt at a personal insult, always telling in religious debates.

'Confusing some to their own demise'

Not sure what he is even trying to say. Is F3 claiming failing to pray to Mary is a threat to one's soul?

Strange.

'But even Luther venerated Mary greatly.'

Goalpost move. Praying to someone is a really, really bad idea consistently prohibited in Scripture,

And many Protestants, including me, respect and admire Mary. We just don't confuse her with Christ.

'You gots some swiss cheese with all your logic holes '

A mild and frankly weak personal insult again, and once again lacking any valid context or cogency.

Can't award any points. Complete miss there, Fre3dombear.

BUDOS said:

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Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Amen.

There is one name under heaven by which we are saved. That name is Jesus Christ.

Forest Bueller III said:

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BUDOS said:

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Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Amen.

There is one name under heaven by which we are saved. That name is Jesus Christ.

---

Agree. I would be surprised if any Catholic says different.

FLBear5630 said:

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Forest Bueller III said:

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BUDOS said:

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Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Amen.

There is one name under heaven by which we are saved. That name is Jesus Christ.

---

Agree. I would be surprised if any Catholic says different.

---

But then why do none of you Roman Catholics disavow the words from your own popes, patriarchs, and Doctors of your church who have stated:

• "O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)
• "She has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings" (St. Lawrence Justinian)
• "Mary's intercession is not only useful but necessary for salvation.... " (St. Alphonsus Ligouri, Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church)
• "Mary is the road we must travel to reach God" (Pope Francis, paraphrased)

??

FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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King Charles mother was Queen Elizabeth. (sorry, couldn't resist)

We are using man-made titles, good point. How else would you describe to men (men/women/children)?

Jesus consistently spoke in parables and used analogous methods to convey a point. If you took Jesus literally you would think he was a farmer talking of livestock, mustard trees, and fields. But, those that listen know he was talking of more.

Building off of John 19? How would those in the times of Rome and Kings describe honoring someone? Calling them royalty, perhaps? How would you get that point across, 1500-2000 years ago?

Is it so outlandish that the used the term "Queen"? The point was to get people to understand and at the time most were uneducated. Not to speak as the Pharisees that only they could understand.

Any prayer I have ever heard, 62 years a Catholic, is as an intermediary, which by definition is below the top. A concept that is as old as time and is even described in the Bible with Herod's wife interceding on Chris's behalf. There was no illusion that she was an equal with Pilate.

As ALL the Catholics on here have told you, we do not put Mary on the same level as Jesus or God. We should know.

This conversation brings up some very interesting points. How literal is the Bible? If Jesus spoke in parables to get across messages, should it meant to be taken literal. For that matter, the same with the "man-made" titles? How literal? Do you really think that people think there is a throne like on earth in heaven? Maybe it is a form we can understand?

But, I have a tendency to be a bit more abstract and think in concepts, not literal interpretation.

---

Sorry.
I said Charles but I was thinking of his son who will be King but his mother was only a princess.

The point is that none of this matters as there is no scripture anywhere which states that the Kingdom of God has a queen.

Some parts of the Bible are parables. Jesus spoke in parables, but he also made it clear when he was talking in parables.

Other parts are not parables. The scriptures describe throne in heaven for God, Jesus and the elders. It does not say that these descriptions are parables, so yes... i do believe that there will be a throne in heaven.

I have talked with many Catholics over many decades, and many of them have said that they were taught that Mary has a thrown in heaven right next to Jesus.
These are the kinds of things that are taught in many catholic schools.

To your point Mary being an intermediary, the Bible makes it very clear that we have only one intermediary and that is Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
John 14:6
Hebrews 9:15
Galatians 3: 19-20
There are so many verses which make it very clear that Jesus is our mediator, and not a single one that makes an exception for Mary to also be our mediator too.

I know you have said that you hate Paul, but Peter himself instructed the early Christians to obey his letters, and he even called them scriptures.
2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV
[15] Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. [16] He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

You Catholics like to falsely claim that Peter was the first pope, and yet you also like to ignore much of Paul's letters even though your "first pope" tells you otherwise.

---

I was teasing about King Charles, I get the point.

This all reminds me of a joke a the Pastor of the convent told me years ago in Amarillo where we used to go to mass.

"A man arrives at the gates of heaven. St. Peter asks, "Religion?"

The man says, "Catholic." St. Peter looks down his list, and says, "Go to room 24, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

Another man arrives at the gates of heaven. "Religion?"

"Jewish."

"Go to room 18, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

A third man arrives at the gates. "Religion?"

"Moslem."

"Go to room 11, but be very quiet as you pass room 8."

The man says, "I can understand there being different rooms for different religions, but why must I be quiet when I pass room 8?"

St. Peter tells him, "Well the Protestants are in room 8, and they think they're the only ones here."


I have heard it different ways, but you get the point. We all think we are right. Some just are a bit more inclusive than others. I Have Wisconsin Synod Lutheran in-laws for 40 years now, they make you look like BWA (using a group you may know that is very liberal).

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If you want inclusivity, then Hell is your place. No one is turned away from Hell... they accept everyone.

In contrast, the scriptures make it very clear that only a few will find the path to Heaven.

I think it is telling that you include the Muslims. I know that the catechisms teach you that Muslims will be in Heaven, but that is just a total lie. One cannot be a Muslim without believing that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, nor did he die on the cross, nor did he rise from the dead. It is impossible to be a Muslim and be saved, despite what the magisterium might tell you.

Heaven is not about inclusivity. It is about the faithful followers of Jesus, and no others will be there.

FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BUDOS said:

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Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

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I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

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Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

So in none of these verses does scripture describe Mary as queen, much less say she should be honored on equal footing with the lord.

You're just making crap up at this point. It's kind of evil what you're doing actually.

---

Evil?

You keep hanging onto Scripture alone. Catholics do not subscribe to Scripture alone. So, what is your point in continuing to ask for the same thing? There are scriptures that various people on here have identified that support the position that the Catholic Church takes. If you are looking for a verbatim translation, you are not going to find it.

The question I have with your line of thinking is - Is the Bible supposed to be taken literally? Was there a Mustard Tree? Where is the field that the person buried their talents? How do you bury your talents? Jesus was a Lamb? Or was he a loaf of bread? I thought he was a Carpenter not a Shepard? The crown of 12 stars was not really a crown.

Confusing, but they must exist exactly as written as we know the Gospels are literal and only meant to be taken that way? You have told us so, if it is not in the Bible exactly as written it is not true.

---

Every protestant knows that there are parts of the Bible that are parables and others that are imagery. It is important to study to understand the meaning behind the imagery.
But that is not the same as saying that Jesus said one thing, but He meant the complete opposite. Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father, and you would have us believe that what He actually meant is that there are many paths to the Father.
You may think that you are saying that the Bible isn't literal, but what you are actually doing is accusing Jesus of being a liar. It is one thing to interpret & understand a parable, but it is something totally different to say that Jesus was saying the exact opposite of what He stated in His own words.

ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BUDOS said:

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Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

So in none of these verses does scripture describe Mary as queen, much less say she should be honored on equal footing with the lord.

You're just making crap up at this point. It's kind of evil what you're doing actually.

---

Evil?

You keep hanging onto Scripture alone. Catholics do not subscribe to Scripture alone. So, what is your point in continuing to ask for the same thing? There are scriptures that various people on here have identified that support the position that the Catholic Church takes. If you are looking for a verbatim translation, you are not going to find it.

The question I have with your line of thinking is - Is the Bible supposed to be taken literally? Was there a Mustard Tree? Where is the field that the person buried their talents? How do you bury your talents? Jesus was a Lamb? Or was he a loaf of bread? I thought he was a Carpenter not a Shepard? The crown of 12 stars was not really a crown.

Confusing, but they must exist exactly as written as we know the Gospels are literal and only meant to be taken that way? You have told us so, if it is not in the Bible exactly as written it is not true.

---

Every protestant knows that there are parts of the Bible that are parables and others that are imagery. It is important to study to understand the meaning behind the imagery.
But that is not the same as saying that Jesus said one thing, but He meant the complete opposite. Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father, and you would have us believe that what He actually meant is that there are many paths to the Father.
You may think that you are saying that the Bible isn't literal, but what you are actually doing is accusing Jesus of being a liar. It is one thing to interpret & understand a parable, but it is something totally different to say that Jesus was saying the exact opposite of what He stated in His own words.

---

i am not seeing much difference. No One says Mary supercedes Jesus.

You seem happy were you are. No one is trying to convert you. I am glad you are good with your faith.

FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

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Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

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Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

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You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

So in none of these verses does scripture describe Mary as queen, much less say she should be honored on equal footing with the lord.

You're just making crap up at this point. It's kind of evil what you're doing actually.

---

Evil?

You keep hanging onto Scripture alone. Catholics do not subscribe to Scripture alone. So, what is your point in continuing to ask for the same thing? There are scriptures that various people on here have identified that support the position that the Catholic Church takes. If you are looking for a verbatim translation, you are not going to find it.

The question I have with your line of thinking is - Is the Bible supposed to be taken literally? Was there a Mustard Tree? Where is the field that the person buried their talents? How do you bury your talents? Jesus was a Lamb? Or was he a loaf of bread? I thought he was a Carpenter not a Shepard? The crown of 12 stars was not really a crown.

Confusing, but they must exist exactly as written as we know the Gospels are literal and only meant to be taken that way? You have told us so, if it is not in the Bible exactly as written it is not true.

---

Every protestant knows that there are parts of the Bible that are parables and others that are imagery. It is important to study to understand the meaning behind the imagery.
But that is not the same as saying that Jesus said one thing, but He meant the complete opposite. Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father, and you would have us believe that what He actually meant is that there are many paths to the Father.
You may think that you are saying that the Bible isn't literal, but what you are actually doing is accusing Jesus of being a liar. It is one thing to interpret & understand a parable, but it is something totally different to say that Jesus was saying the exact opposite of what He stated in His own words.

---

i am not seeing much difference. No One says Mary supercedes Jesus.

You seem happy were you are. No one is trying to convert you. I am glad you are good with your faith.

---

I suppose you are not familiar with Catholic teaching.
It is the RC that teaches there is more than just one way to be with the Father in Heaven. That is in direct contrast to the words of Jesus and the teachings of the Bible.


Catechism of the Catholic Church
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

The RC teaches that muslims worship the same God, but they have a lesser understanding of him. This is outrageously false. The god of Islam is NOT the God of Abraham... not even close. The god of Islam is a liar who tricks & decieves mankind, including his own prophet, according to the Koran. Islam is the enemy of God and the enemy of true Christianity. This false teaching by the RC is just another example of why we trust in the scriptures, and not the decisions of a bunch of guys in the Vatican.

ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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BUDOS said:

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Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

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Yep and only one is the Queen

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Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

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You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

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I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

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Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

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And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

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Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

Are you not entertained? I know i am as the pretzels knot up here on the daily spinning yourselves in confusion.

You spoke of not believing in tradition. I addressed, as i always do, with chapter and verse.

Then you say "i wasnt speaking of tradition"

Deflect ^3


Now you ask a new question so here is one of many many answers

Revelation 12:1-5 - "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Do protestants (in general since none of yall agree on much) acknowledge Revelations? I understood yes. Who could this verse possibly he about?

Psalm 2:9 (tying OT with New)

A blocked poster on your team as i recall said mary is not even the Mother of God so obviously thats a bizarre take to be discounted but blinds many who chose to schism from Christ's church in earth. Another even said the devil created the miracle hanging in the church in Mexico City to this day. Inexplicable by any and all science the devil used it to convert billions if souls over 500 years. Sound argument there

Anyway, 2 verses. Ive explained it to someone that also you have said many times that you refuse any belief in tradition yet you are called to acknowledge tradition explicitly in the scriptura you oddly (kinda) sola except the parts that neuter your own beliefs.

---

So in none of these verses does scripture describe Mary as queen, much less say she should be honored on equal footing with the lord.

You're just making crap up at this point. It's kind of evil what you're doing actually.

---

Evil?

You keep hanging onto Scripture alone. Catholics do not subscribe to Scripture alone. So, what is your point in continuing to ask for the same thing? There are scriptures that various people on here have identified that support the position that the Catholic Church takes. If you are looking for a verbatim translation, you are not going to find it.

The question I have with your line of thinking is - Is the Bible supposed to be taken literally? Was there a Mustard Tree? Where is the field that the person buried their talents? How do you bury your talents? Jesus was a Lamb? Or was he a loaf of bread? I thought he was a Carpenter not a Shepard? The crown of 12 stars was not really a crown.

Confusing, but they must exist exactly as written as we know the Gospels are literal and only meant to be taken that way? You have told us so, if it is not in the Bible exactly as written it is not true.

---

Every protestant knows that there are parts of the Bible that are parables and others that are imagery. It is important to study to understand the meaning behind the imagery.
But that is not the same as saying that Jesus said one thing, but He meant the complete opposite. Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father, and you would have us believe that what He actually meant is that there are many paths to the Father.
You may think that you are saying that the Bible isn't literal, but what you are actually doing is accusing Jesus of being a liar. It is one thing to interpret & understand a parable, but it is something totally different to say that Jesus was saying the exact opposite of what He stated in His own words.

---

i am not seeing much difference. No One says Mary supercedes Jesus.

You seem happy were you are. No one is trying to convert you. I am glad you are good with your faith.

---

I suppose you are not familiar with Catholic teaching.
It is the RC that teaches there is more than just one way to be with the Father in Heaven. That is in direct contrast to the words of Jesus and the teachings of the Bible.


Catechism of the Catholic Church
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

The RC teaches that muslims worship the same God, but they have a lesser understanding of him. This is outrageously false. The god of Islam is NOT the God of Abraham... not even close. The god of Islam is a liar who tricks & decieves mankind, including his own prophet, according to the Koran. Islam is the enemy of God and the enemy of true Christianity. This false teaching by the RC is just another example of why we trust in the scriptures, and not the decisions of a bunch of guys in the Vatican.

---

Like I said, you seem happy where you are. Glad it works for you

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Forest Bueller III said:

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BUDOS said:

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Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Amen.

There is one name under heaven by which we are saved. That name is Jesus Christ.

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Agree. I would be surprised if any Catholic says different.

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But then why do none of you Roman Catholics disavow the words from your own popes, patriarchs, and Doctors of your church who have stated:

• "O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)
• "She has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings" (St. Lawrence Justinian)
• "Mary's intercession is not only useful but necessary for salvation.... " (St. Alphonsus Ligouri, Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church)
• "Mary is the road we must travel to reach God" (Pope Francis, paraphrased)

??

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I'm serious. Is there not ONE Roman Catholic who will come out and say that these popes and Doctors of the Church are wrong?

FLBear? What say you? If you say you agree that there is only one name under heaven by which we are saved, Jesus Christ, then you should have no problem saying these statements are wrong, correct?

If you can't/won't, then what does that tell us?