4th and Inches said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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4th and Inches said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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I have seen in purgatory,
Protestants who were pious in their ignorance, they are very desolate, for no prayers are offered for them.

Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich 🕊️ pic.twitter.com/SrOydNuV95

— Grainne 🕊️☘️ (@GrainneMcD92925) March 15, 2026

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Another vision attributed to Anne Catherine Emmerich speaks of black people having originated from Ham in the book of Genesis who was cursed for his wickedness, for which he received a black "mark" on his skin:

"The nobler races were always of a lighter color. They who were distinguished by a a particular mark engendered children of the same stamp; and as corruption increased, the mark also increased until at last it covered the whole body, and people became darker and darker. But yet in the beginning there were no people perfectly black; they only became so only by degrees." - Life of Jesus, by Anne Catherine Emmerich

Oops.

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I mean if that doesn't give her street cred with you white Christian nationalists, tell me what does.

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You missed the point (no surprise there)

It just shows that she had a history of making up stuff to support "doctrines" when in reality she is just supporting & expressing her own nasty views of people that she doesn't like and/or disagree with her. She should definitely appeal to a leftist like yourself. Generating false "evidence" to attack people you hate.... right up your ally.

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We're talking to people who accept the authority of a church that tells them that Marian apparitions, which command them to build churches in her honor and to establish world-wide devotion to her "Immaculate Heart" in order for sinners to be saved, is from God. What's blatant racism going to do to dissaude them?

They are truly lost and need our prayers.

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Ah so you think in their hearts that they truly think Mary saves them instead of Jesus?

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Do you know in their hearts that they don't?

Regardless, that isn't even the point. Is that message from God? I know you have difficulty giving direct answers to questions, but what is your answer?

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Doc? Cat got your tongue?

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Ok, Doc bailed. I turn this question to the Roman Catholics - Freedom, Coke, Sam, Florida, Kai, et al? Is this message from God?

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I've already bailed, but not because I couldn't answer your questions. I and others have answered them many times.

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No, you never could, and never did. You may have typed a response, but it was never an answer. It was just your usual avoidance games. Maybe we can demonstrate it to this forum with this question here. The answer to the question I'm posing to you is no more than three letters long. No, or yes: are the messages from purported Marian apparitions in question, which commanded a church to be built in her honor, and that world-wide devotion to her "Immaculate Heart" be established for the forgiveness of sins, from God?

I've given my answer: NO.

What say you?

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I don't find these debates productive and don't want to get drawn in. That's not to say I don't learn from many of the posts here. But there's a kind of semantic barrier between the two sides that makes any mutual understanding extremely difficult.

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Sam has elected to dodge, which is no surprise.

What about you other Roman Catholics? What say you?

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I have RC family members that I'm sure pray to Mary and turn to her more frequently than they turn to Christ.

I also have Protestant friends that think they are going to heaven because they're a good person.

The Church(es) has a lot of work to do regardless of if they have a Pope or not.

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Between those two groups you referenced, one of them is correctly following the teachings of their church.

See the (huge) difference?

A moral equivalence argument doesn't work here.

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Mark 10:18

John 14:6

Both groups have issues that are concerning

Romans 10:9 is key and could cause many from both groups to hear depart from me, i never knew you

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Protestantism doesn't teach anything contrary to those verses you posted.

Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy condones and sanctions the idolatry of Mary in their very own doctrine, catechisms, and liturgy, and even REQUIRES some of those beliefs otherwise you are separated from God by anathema. And ironically, regarding your post, they DO officially teach what is contrary to those verses you posted!

Some of you are trying your best to not acknowledge the 900 lb gorilla in the room. If you're arguing moral equivalency, you just aren't being honest.

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you do you.

I wasnt advocating for anyone being catholic. I am not.

Plenty of protestant churches teach false gospel too. Plenty of Morally "good" people are going to hear depart I never knew you..

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Nowhere in the Bible does it say good people go
To Heaven. It's a sad way to graft money from people looking for an easy way out, to Preach ones way to fame and fortune and big house etc

Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

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Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

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Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

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The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

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It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

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As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

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At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….

Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.

Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

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Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

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Hmmm. Seemed a tad proud, your post. Not like you couldn't have chosen someone else for your comparison.

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

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You're seriously on him for using the subject of the thread as a point of comparison?

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The subject of the thread is worship of Mary, not whether someone implies they are Christlike in their standing.

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Ummmm wrong

I created this thread which has generated significamt lively discussions and some hilarious uneducated comments along the way as well.

It is NOT about worship Of Mary. Dont know anyone that worships Mary and never created a thread about worshipping Mary mother of God. Maybe some Protestant Christian sects think that but they are wrong of course.

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Dude, check the thread title. Too late now to pretend it says something else.

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Honor = worship? I see why you on struggle bus so often.

Honor your father and mother

Oops i mean you think it says worship your father and mother.

Your poorly constructed talking points make a lot more sense now

DallasBear9902 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….

Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.

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2000 straight years of no Mary worship. Even the Protestant Christians will never beat that streak even if Catholicism paused 1,000 years.

Great job keeping the streak alive.

Agreed it would make it more entertaining to engage the discourse and bring up the intellectualness and defense of their arguments.

I’ve read all surviving documents from Martin at some time in my K-12 Lutheran School education. Martin’s error is believing the Bible is self interpreting. Phillip and the eunuch in Acts proves it needs tradition alongside it.

— Stephen Smith (@neumotiontherap) March 28, 2026

Your dishonest twisting of what I said, combined with the arrogant insult attempt, conveys something you may not like connected to your name, brother.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Please explain

Dear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH

— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026

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Did anyone ever explain this and I just missed it?

Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

So, so wrong.

When John bowed down to the angel at the end of Revelation, the angel reprimanded him for doing so, saying it was WORSHIP (Revelation 22:9). John was not sacrificing anything.

DallasBear9902 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….

Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.

---

You can mouth off all you like, but it's not lost on these people here that you still refuse to answer the question.

And that's telling them all they need to know.

What came first, the Bible or the Catholic church?

Oldbear83 said:

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Your dishonest twisting of what I said, combined with the arrogant insult attempt, conveys something you may not like connected to your name, brother.

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You doth project too much brother. Dont whine when youre called out rightfully so

Feel free to start a thread in woshiping Mary but this aint it brother. Lyong….is a sin. As is bearing false witness for all to see. Confess!

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

So, so wrong.

When John bowed down to the angel at the end of Revelation, the angel reprimanded him for doing so, saying it was WORSHIP (Revelation 22:9). John was not sacrificing anything.

---

I hate engaging with this dishonest poster, but this intentional deception must be pointed out.

In Revelation, John states that in the vision he "bowed down TO WORSHIP the Angel" and the Angel said "do not do that…Worship God." To intentionally omit "to worship" from the scriptural reference in order to try to attack others tells these people all they need to know about this poster's dishonesty. God's scripture is perfect in every way and this poster doesn't need to degrade it by deceptively quoting it in order to try to score cheap points on a message board.

Contra: Genesis 19:1. Lot bows down in a sign of respect to the two angels that appear at the gateway to Sodom and implores the angels to accept his hospitality. Was he worshipping the two angels?

Contra: Joshua 5:14. Joshua falls face down to the ground in "reverence" before (who we refer to as) Michael the Archangel as the Archangel delivers God's message to Joshua at Jericho. Is Lot worshiping the Archangel?

Contra: other examples of humans in the Bible bowing in respect/fear/honor of others vs bowing *in worship*. E.g., Samuel and the vision of Saul, Joseph's brothers bowing down before him in Egypt before they realized who he was, David bowing before King Saul, Ruth and Boaz, and others. Nobody accuses them of bowing *in worship*.

Edit: the point being that John explicitly states he is bowing "to worship" and to omit John's own admission of his wrongful act of worship and divorce the admission from the angel's admonition is a cheap ploy and dishonest.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Please explain

Dear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH

— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026

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Did anyone ever explain this and I just missed it?

---

Remember this one, also posted by the OP here https://sicem365.com/forums/7/topics/155897/replies/4343542 ??

In 1921 Pope Benedict XV instituted November 8 as the feast day of Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces. pic.twitter.com/aA0W0voDOU

— Sign of the Cross (@CatholicSOTC) November 8, 2025

DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

So, so wrong.

When John bowed down to the angel at the end of Revelation, the angel reprimanded him for doing so, saying it was WORSHIP (Revelation 22:9). John was not sacrificing anything.

---

I hate engaging with this dishonest poster, but this intentional deception must be pointed out.

In Revelation, John states that in the vision he "bowed down TO WORSHIP the Angel" and the Angel said "do not do that…Worship God." To intentionally omit "to worship" from the scriptural reference in order to try to attack others tells these people all they need to know about this poster's dishonesty. God's scripture is perfect in every way and this poster doesn't need to degrade it by deceptively quoting it in order to try to score cheap points on a message board.

Contra: Genesis 19:1. Lot bows down in a sign of respect to the two angels that appear at the gateway to Sodom and implores the angels to accept his hospitality. Was he worshipping the two angels?

Contra: Joshua 5:14. Joshua falls face down to the ground in "reverence" before (who we refer to as) Michael the Archangel as the Archangel delivers God's message to Joshua at Jericho. Is Lot worshiping the Archangel?

Contra: other examples of humans in the Bible bowing in respect/fear/honor of others vs bowing *in worship*. E.g., Samuel and the vision of Saul, Joseph's brothers bowing down before him in Egypt before they realized who he was, David bowing before King Saul, Ruth and Boaz, and others. Nobody accuses them of bowing *in worship*.

---

The person I was responding to specifically stated that SACRIFICE was required for something to be "worship".

The example in Revelation CLEARLY shows that this is not the case. You're only furthering my point when you point out that John bowed down "to worship" the angel. NO SACRIFICE WAS NEEDED for it to be worship.

Try to stay focused on the argument at hand.

"Dishonesty" is continually avoiding my question.

Check the edit.

Fre3dombear said:

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What came first, the Bible or the Catholic church?

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The Old Testament (The Hebrew Tanakh), Jesus, and Jesus apostles' came before the church. And the only thing that contains everything we know which came from Jesus and his apostles is in Scripture (the Bible), and in Scripture alone.

Hence, sola scriptura.

DallasBear9902 said:

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Check the edit.

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Your edit makes your post even more ridiculous. You were wrong, so why not just admit it, instead of digging your hole deeper?

And you're still avoiding the question. And it's clear why.

DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

So, so wrong.

When John bowed down to the angel at the end of Revelation, the angel reprimanded him for doing so, saying it was WORSHIP (Revelation 22:9). John was not sacrificing anything.

---

I hate engaging with this dishonest poster, but this intentional deception must be pointed out.

In Revelation, John states that in the vision he "bowed down TO WORSHIP the Angel" and the Angel said "do not do that…Worship God." To intentionally omit "to worship" from the scriptural reference in order to try to attack others tells these people all they need to know about this poster's dishonesty. God's scripture is perfect in every way and this poster doesn't need to degrade it by deceptively quoting it in order to try to score cheap points on a message board.

Contra: Genesis 19:1. Lot bows down in a sign of respect to the two angels that appear at the gateway to Sodom and implores the angels to accept his hospitality. Was he worshipping the two angels?

Contra: Joshua 5:14. Joshua falls face down to the ground in "reverence" before (who we refer to as) Michael the Archangel as the Archangel delivers God's message to Joshua at Jericho. Is Lot worshiping the Archangel?

Contra: other examples of humans in the Bible bowing in respect/fear/honor of others vs bowing *in worship*. E.g., Samuel and the vision of Saul, Joseph's brothers bowing down before him in Egypt before they realized who he was, David bowing before King Saul, Ruth and Boaz, and others. Nobody accuses them of bowing *in worship*.

Edit: the point being that John explicitly states he is bowing "to worship" and to omit John's own admission of his wrongful act of worship and divorce the admission from the angel's admonition is a cheap ploy and dishonest.

---

On occasion i see this poster quoted. Pretty standard your example. Had to Move on.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Check the edit.

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Your edit makes your post even more ridiculous. You were wrong, so why not just admit it, instead of digging your hole deeper?

And you're still avoiding the question. And it's clear why.

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Your question cannot be answered because the foundation is incorrect. If you would like to correct your facts and resubmit your question, I'll try to tackle it.

My best guess is that you get Guadalupe wrong because Nahuatl was translated to Spanish and you are probably relying on English translations of the derivative translation to try to understand it.

I am fortunate enough to be a native speaker of both English and Spanish having split my childhood (and primary education) almost perfectly in half between the USA and a Latin American country (my dad was partially in the oil infrastructure business which meant years-long projects working with the Latin American state-oil companies and he spoke Spanish which meant he was the right guy to send south). When my family lived full time in Latin America I would spend all major school
holidays and summer breaks with my Anglo extended family in the USA (mostly ArkLaTex area) and when my family was living full time in the USA I would spend all major holidays and summers with extended Latin American family in Latin America precisely because my parents wanted both language skills developed. I can clam with a straight face that I would leave America to summer camp in Spanish and vice versa.

I give you that long-winded color to tell you something gets lost/added in the translation via cultural context of words that is extremely hard to pin down.

So when Guadalupe in Nahuatl translated to Spanish says: " Mucho quiero, mucho deseo que aqu me levanten mi casita sagrada, en donde lo mostrar" and then to English you hear "build a church in my honor", I understand how you are getting there, but I am telling you the Spanish does not say that. I understand how it gets translated to a point where that is what you read into the translation. But the original just doesn't say it.

There is just a lot of cultural and structural context to
The language that gets lost in the translation (and over time). So, when "levanten mi casita sagrada" gets translated to "build my sacred church" (or whatever translation you are using) and you think it means build a church to honor of Our Lady of Guadalupe, I get how you get there. But that isn't what it says (at least in Spanish). I think the better translation to English is to build a church in her name, but that doesn't quite capture it either. Which I guess should really make us wonder about what was said in the original Nahuatl.

To this day, a half dozen times a year or so I'll drop into Spanish-speaking, immigrant dominated parishes (not parishes where there is a Spanish Mass, but parishes where there is no English Mass) to attend services. You can find these Catholic Churches in East and South Dallas. I do this typically on a Sunday night after having attended English service with my family earlier in the day (alas, my wife and kids are gringos). Same exact readings (this is the Catholic Church!) and (typically) a similar homily. I don't know how to explain it, the readings and message across the languages is just … different. And it is driven by the cultural/contextual meanings of the words being used. For example, in the Spanish language, some readings could come off as straight up anti-semantic in a way that doesn't happen with the English translations. . . You can see where I am going with this.

Anyway, that's my stab at your question. I know you'll accusing me of deflecting and avoiding the question, but that's the best I can give you: your factual understanding is just off, and thus the foundation you try to set up is all wrong making it impossible to answer your question under the parameters you want it answered.

Here are my questions:

1. What is your explanation for the metaphysical events surrounding Guadalupe?

2. Why does Guadalupe lead to the immediate end of some of the most brutal practices of human (in particular child) sacrifice that have ever happened in the world? She also leads to one of the largest mass evangelization events recorded in history with countless Baptisms in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirt. Those all seem consistent with God's plan. How do you explain that one?

3. Does it not seem odd to you that we deny worshipping what *you* think is deity to us? Catholics freely admit they worship the Trinitarian God of Abraham. If we really thought of Mary as worthy of worship then a denial of worship would be an offense. So which it: are we worshipping or offending by denying we worship?

4. What denomination are you?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Please explain

Dear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH

— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026

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Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?

It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".

So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.

Fre3dombear said:

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I’ve read all surviving documents from Martin at some time in my K-12 Lutheran School education. Martin’s error is believing the Bible is self interpreting. Phillip and the eunuch in Acts proves it needs tradition alongside it.

— Stephen Smith (@neumotiontherap) March 28, 2026

---

The Eunuch was reading Isaiah 53 in a language that was foreign to him. Phillip, a teacher, was trying to explain the meaning of Isaiah 53 (a difficult passage in its own right, especially without the requisite knowledge of Christ), and how it related to Jesus, who had just died and rose again - a fact the Eunuch was unaware of.

The idea that Philip's explanation to the Eunuch somehow supports the idea that we must have a Catholic Church explain scripture to us is an incredible stretch of those verses to fit a preconceived narrative.

The sin is yours. Sad you will even defend it.

I will continue to pray for you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

So, so wrong.

When John bowed down to the angel at the end of Revelation, the angel reprimanded him for doing so, saying it was WORSHIP (Revelation 22:9). John was not sacrificing anything.

---

Good point.

This again all goes back to the Catholic heretical idea that we are able to save ourselves through some action on our part, or some "sacrifice," as the case may be. I was in a religious discussion with a Catholic neighbor who is a good friend the other day and he was offended at the thought that he played no role in his salvation. It bruised his ego to think that all of the sacraments he had partaken in were nothing more than filthy rags.

DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

So, so wrong.

When John bowed down to the angel at the end of Revelation, the angel reprimanded him for doing so, saying it was WORSHIP (Revelation 22:9). John was not sacrificing anything.

---

I hate engaging with this dishonest poster, but this intentional deception must be pointed out.

In Revelation, John states that in the vision he "bowed down TO WORSHIP the Angel" and the Angel said "do not do that…Worship God." To intentionally omit "to worship" from the scriptural reference in order to try to attack others tells these people all they need to know about this poster's dishonesty. God's scripture is perfect in every way and this poster doesn't need to degrade it by deceptively quoting it in order to try to score cheap points on a message board.

Contra: Genesis 19:1. Lot bows down in a sign of respect to the two angels that appear at the gateway to Sodom and implores the angels to accept his hospitality. Was he worshipping the two angels?

Contra: Joshua 5:14. Joshua falls face down to the ground in "reverence" before (who we refer to as) Michael the Archangel as the Archangel delivers God's message to Joshua at Jericho. Is Lot worshiping the Archangel?

Contra: other examples of humans in the Bible bowing in respect/fear/honor of others vs bowing *in worship*. E.g., Samuel and the vision of Saul, Joseph's brothers bowing down before him in Egypt before they realized who he was, David bowing before King Saul, Ruth and Boaz, and others. Nobody accuses them of bowing *in worship*.

Edit: the point being that John explicitly states he is bowing "to worship" and to omit John's own admission of his wrongful act of worship and divorce the admission from the angel's admonition is a cheap ploy and dishonest.

---

You being Catholic explains so much.

You really need to change your handle to "Gaslighter." Your posts consist almost entirely of AI-written schlock that regularly mischaracterizes others' positions, or accuses them of engaging in behavior that you consistently engage in yourself. And then when someone calls out your b.s., you tuck tail and run.

You are an intellectually-dishonest poster.

Fre3dombear said:

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Nowhere in the Bible does it say good people go
To Heaven. It's a sad way to graft money from people looking for an easy way out, to Preach ones way to fame and fortune and big house etc

---

There are as many people grifting money off the concept that "good people go to heaven" and "saved people go to heaven." Maybe more grifiting off that second concept.

In reality, the people who go to heaven are those whose souls are illumined and their communion with God the Father is restored through God the Son.

Mothra said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

So, so wrong.

When John bowed down to the angel at the end of Revelation, the angel reprimanded him for doing so, saying it was WORSHIP (Revelation 22:9). John was not sacrificing anything.

---

I hate engaging with this dishonest poster, but this intentional deception must be pointed out.

In Revelation, John states that in the vision he "bowed down TO WORSHIP the Angel" and the Angel said "do not do that…Worship God." To intentionally omit "to worship" from the scriptural reference in order to try to attack others tells these people all they need to know about this poster's dishonesty. God's scripture is perfect in every way and this poster doesn't need to degrade it by deceptively quoting it in order to try to score cheap points on a message board.

Contra: Genesis 19:1. Lot bows down in a sign of respect to the two angels that appear at the gateway to Sodom and implores the angels to accept his hospitality. Was he worshipping the two angels?

Contra: Joshua 5:14. Joshua falls face down to the ground in "reverence" before (who we refer to as) Michael the Archangel as the Archangel delivers God's message to Joshua at Jericho. Is Lot worshiping the Archangel?

Contra: other examples of humans in the Bible bowing in respect/fear/honor of others vs bowing *in worship*. E.g., Samuel and the vision of Saul, Joseph's brothers bowing down before him in Egypt before they realized who he was, David bowing before King Saul, Ruth and Boaz, and others. Nobody accuses them of bowing *in worship*.

Edit: the point being that John explicitly states he is bowing "to worship" and to omit John's own admission of his wrongful act of worship and divorce the admission from the angel's admonition is a cheap ploy and dishonest.

---

You being Catholic explains so much.

You really need to change your handle to "Gaslighter." Your posts consist almost entirely of AI-written schlock that regularly mischaracterizes others' positions, or accuses them of engaging in behavior that you consistently engage in yourself. And then when someone calls out your b.s., you tuck tail and run.

You are an intellectually-dishonest poster.

---

Don't worry, I'll come back on your wrong assertions in the other thread. Had a big transaction that closed at work on the back end this week that has kept me tied up.

Look! It's a homeless Protestant. Do our Catholic friends see this one?





Tempting, isn't it.

This is some of the finest pew walking and pulpit stomping we've ever seen. 🤌🤌🤌 pic.twitter.com/P9pqv3PUxQ

— Protestia (@Protestia) March 28, 2026

The things we have to turn a blind eye to so we can support/defend our positions.

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

Read the verse again.
God clearly says not to build a graven images or to bow down to them.
The Catholics have determined that worship requires sacrifice. That is not the actual definition of worship. It was manufactured by Catholics to legitimize the continued sacrifice of transubstanciation, as well as to defend against the Marian idolatry.

Only Catholics believe that worship requires some form of sacrifice. Manufacturing semantics to defend idolatry is a catholic tradition.

DallasBear9902 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

At stations of the cross tonight we said 14 different individualized prayers directed at Jesus. I suppose we squeezed in a Hail Mary in between an Our Father and Glory Be at the end…. We must have missed the memo on the Mary worship tonight….

Honestly if the brick wall and his little side kick could at least be honest in their criticism and attacks it might be worth engagement. But the intentional misrepresentation says a lot.

---

Are you familiar with the rosary?

If so, please tell us how many rosary prayers are to God vs how many to Mary.

Also if you don't worship Mary, please explain why there are more Catholic Church named in honor of Mary, than in honor of God.

Also explain why every year millions of Catholics go on pianos pilgrimage to visit one of the sites of her apparition, and offer flowers, songs and prayers to her.

I'm glad you had an experience the other day without worshipping Mary.

DallasBear9902 said:

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Mothra said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

So, so wrong.

When John bowed down to the angel at the end of Revelation, the angel reprimanded him for doing so, saying it was WORSHIP (Revelation 22:9). John was not sacrificing anything.

---

I hate engaging with this dishonest poster, but this intentional deception must be pointed out.

In Revelation, John states that in the vision he "bowed down TO WORSHIP the Angel" and the Angel said "do not do that…Worship God." To intentionally omit "to worship" from the scriptural reference in order to try to attack others tells these people all they need to know about this poster's dishonesty. God's scripture is perfect in every way and this poster doesn't need to degrade it by deceptively quoting it in order to try to score cheap points on a message board.

Contra: Genesis 19:1. Lot bows down in a sign of respect to the two angels that appear at the gateway to Sodom and implores the angels to accept his hospitality. Was he worshipping the two angels?

Contra: Joshua 5:14. Joshua falls face down to the ground in "reverence" before (who we refer to as) Michael the Archangel as the Archangel delivers God's message to Joshua at Jericho. Is Lot worshiping the Archangel?

Contra: other examples of humans in the Bible bowing in respect/fear/honor of others vs bowing *in worship*. E.g., Samuel and the vision of Saul, Joseph's brothers bowing down before him in Egypt before they realized who he was, David bowing before King Saul, Ruth and Boaz, and others. Nobody accuses them of bowing *in worship*.

Edit: the point being that John explicitly states he is bowing "to worship" and to omit John's own admission of his wrongful act of worship and divorce the admission from the angel's admonition is a cheap ploy and dishonest.

---

You being Catholic explains so much.

You really need to change your handle to "Gaslighter." Your posts consist almost entirely of AI-written schlock that regularly mischaracterizes others' positions, or accuses them of engaging in behavior that you consistently engage in yourself. And then when someone calls out your b.s., you tuck tail and run.

You are an intellectually-dishonest poster.

---

Don't worry, I'll come back on your wrong assertions in the other thread. Had a big transaction that closed at work on the back end this week that has kept me tied up.

---

I look forward to your AI-written retort.

Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Hmmm. Seemed a tad proud, your post. Not like you couldn't have chosen someone else for your comparison.

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

You're seriously on him for using the subject of the thread as a point of comparison?

---

The subject of the thread is worship of Mary, not whether someone implies they are Christlike in their standing.

---

Ummmm wrong

I created this thread which has generated significamt lively discussions and some hilarious uneducated comments along the way as well.

It is NOT about worship Of Mary. Dont know anyone that worships Mary and never created a thread about worshipping Mary mother of God. Maybe some Protestant Christian sects think that but they are wrong of course.

---

Dude, check the thread title. Too late now to pretend it says something else.

---

Honor = worship? I see why you on struggle bus so often.

Honor your father and mother

Oops i mean you think it says worship your father and mother.

Your poorly constructed talking points make a lot more sense now

---

I honor my father & mother.

I don't build churches to them. I don't pray prayers to them. I don't sing songs of worship & praise to them. I don't build statutes of them. I don't bow too those statues or lay flowers at the feet of the statues or kiss the feet of those statues.

The entire world understands that these actions are worship. Only Catholics believe that bowing & kissing a statue is not a form of worship. Only Catholics believe that building churches, singing songs and praying prayers to someone other that God is not idolatry.

Fre3dombear said:

---

What came first, the Bible or the Catholic church?

---

The scriptures were written long before the bishop of Rome declared himself to be the Pope, and fabricated the lineage of Popes.

Perhaps you think the Bible only existed after the canonization process was completed?

Some of the New Testament letters were written before the first house churches were established in Rome itself.

DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

---

Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

---

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

---

The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

---

It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

---

As has been stated ad nauseum, theres no worship without sacrifice. Never seen anyone sacrifice anything to Mary

Ive been to many a sunday mega church, Bible church as they call it, etc. never seen a sacrifice at any of those either. Ever.

---

So, so wrong.

When John bowed down to the angel at the end of Revelation, the angel reprimanded him for doing so, saying it was WORSHIP (Revelation 22:9). John was not sacrificing anything.

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I hate engaging with this dishonest poster, but this intentional deception must be pointed out.

In Revelation, John states that in the vision he "bowed down TO WORSHIP the Angel" and the Angel said "do not do that…Worship God." To intentionally omit "to worship" from the scriptural reference in order to try to attack others tells these people all they need to know about this poster's dishonesty. God's scripture is perfect in every way and this poster doesn't need to degrade it by deceptively quoting it in order to try to score cheap points on a message board.

Contra: Genesis 19:1. Lot bows down in a sign of respect to the two angels that appear at the gateway to Sodom and implores the angels to accept his hospitality. Was he worshipping the two angels?

Contra: Joshua 5:14. Joshua falls face down to the ground in "reverence" before (who we refer to as) Michael the Archangel as the Archangel delivers God's message to Joshua at Jericho. Is Lot worshiping the Archangel?

Contra: other examples of humans in the Bible bowing in respect/fear/honor of others vs bowing *in worship*. E.g., Samuel and the vision of Saul, Joseph's brothers bowing down before him in Egypt before they realized who he was, David bowing before King Saul, Ruth and Boaz, and others. Nobody accuses them of bowing *in worship*.

Edit: the point being that John explicitly states he is bowing "to worship" and to omit John's own admission of his wrongful act of worship and divorce the admission from the angel's admonition is a cheap ploy and dishonest.

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I guess you need to explain it to God, because He clearly doesn't know as much as the Catholics.

Here is what God said to Moses:

Deuteronomy 5:8-9 NIV
[8] "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [9] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God,
Please be sure to explain to God how He got it wrong.

Good luck with that.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Please explain

Dear Blessed Mother, Please comfort this girl pic.twitter.com/Rfq80LSiEH

— sparkles (@sparklesdollyku) March 26, 2026

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Is it dishonest that none of our Catholic friends have replied to my request to explain this?

It's as though this post is a homeless guy at an intersection and everyone's afraid to make eye contact…. except a couple guys shouting "hey, you're homeless".

So, catholic posters, Im tapping on your windshield. I know you see me. Please respond with an explanation.

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It's not a homeless guy at an intersection. It's somebody pouring cyanide into people's drinks at a restaurant, and even labeling the cups "POISON" - yet there are still people picking them up and drinking. And there are only a few of us willing to yell "Hey, don't drink that, that's poison!"

And then there are a few here saying "well, somewhere else there is poison being poured into other people's drinks too" as if it's even pertinent to the danger at hand.

ShooterTX said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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quash said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

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Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

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Hmmm. Seemed a tad proud, your post. Not like you couldn't have chosen someone else for your comparison.

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

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You're seriously on him for using the subject of the thread as a point of comparison?

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The subject of the thread is worship of Mary, not whether someone implies they are Christlike in their standing.

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Ummmm wrong

I created this thread which has generated significamt lively discussions and some hilarious uneducated comments along the way as well.

It is NOT about worship Of Mary. Dont know anyone that worships Mary and never created a thread about worshipping Mary mother of God. Maybe some Protestant Christian sects think that but they are wrong of course.

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Dude, check the thread title. Too late now to pretend it says something else.

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Honor = worship? I see why you on struggle bus so often.

Honor your father and mother

Oops i mean you think it says worship your father and mother.

Your poorly constructed talking points make a lot more sense now

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I honor my father & mother.

I don't build churches to them. I don't pray prayers to them. I don't sing songs of worship & praise to them. I don't build statutes of them. I don't bow too those statues or lay flowers at the feet of the statues or kiss the feet of those statues.

The entire world understands that these actions are worship. Only Catholics believe that bowing & kissing a statue is not a form of worship. Only Catholics believe that building churches, singing songs and praying prayers to someone other that God is not idolatry.

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A while ago, in another thread, I listed out all the things that Roman Catholicism say about and do for Mary, and then asked that person to remove Mary as the object and insert in her place ANY entity they like, whether it be their own mother, Donald Trump, their dog, or even Baal.

Then I asked whether doing and saying those exact same things done to Mary except done to that other entity would be "worship" of that other entity, and whether it'd be okay with God.

Their answer? "Doing all that for Mary ISN'T worship, but doing all that for another, I don't know if it is or not" (they know they can't just say "yes"). In other words, a pure double standard. Put them on the spot, lay it out directly in front of them and corner them with it, and they HAVE TO move the goal posts for Mary in order to justify themselves.