Student Loans

16,676 Views | 283 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Harrison Bergeron
He Hate Me
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Is there really a national crisis? If we wind up forgiving student loans, then the federal government should never guarantee another educational loan again.
jimdue
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Carlos Safety said:

Is there really a national crisis? If we wind up forgiving student loans, then the federal government should never guarantee another educational loan again.


This is of course very bad public policy to forgive debt across the board no questions asked.

Unfortunately, it is very good politics. The majority of voters who will be offended by this policy will not vote Democrat anyway. And they will convert a generation of snowflakes as Dems for life or at least until the country can't borrow any more money to give them free stuff.
HuMcK
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Instead of forgiving the loans outright, I wouldn't mind a reduction back to the principal amount, essentially forgiving interest instead of the loan itself. That would help out a whole lot of people, and isn't quite the handout that loan forgiveness is.

It's should be abundantly clear to everyone that the current higher-ed model is wildly overpriced and borderline predatory (similar to healthcare). I understand if conservatives don't want to pay off loans for people, but something needs to be done so we aren't saddling entire generations of students with essentially a mortgage payment.

As of now, just like the healthcare debates, Dems seem to be the only ones even acknowledging the problem. Repubs agree that it's too expensive when pressed, but that's where the discussion ends for them. The cynic in me says Republicans hate higher-ed because more educated people don't generally vote for them, and that leads to apathy regarding a major social issue.
He Hate Me
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HuMcK said:

Instead of forgiving the loans outright, I wouldn't mind a reduction back to the principal amount, essentially forgiving interest instead of the loan itself. That would help out a whole lot of people, and isn't quite the handout that loan forgiveness is.

It's should be abundantly clear to everyone that the current higher-ed model is wildly overpriced and borderline predatory (similar to healthcare). I understand if conservatives don't want to pay off loans for people, but something needs to be done so we aren't saddling entire generations of students with essentially a mortgage payment.


What lesson do you believe the debtors learn when someone else pays their bills for them?
Oldbear83
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Forgiving student loans punishes everyone who went to the trouble to plan and save so they paid for their own college.

It makes no sense to reward those who made bad decisions.
jimdue
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HuMcK said:

Instead of forgiving the loans outright, I wouldn't mind a reduction back to the principal amount, essentially forgiving interest instead of the loan itself. That would help out a whole lot of people, and isn't quite the handout that loan forgiveness is.

It's should be abundantly clear to everyone that the current higher-ed model is wildly overpriced and borderline predatory (similar to healthcare). I understand if conservatives don't want to pay off loans for people, but something needs to be done so we aren't saddling entire generations of students with essentially a mortgage payment.

As of now, just like the healthcare debates, Dems seem to be the only ones even acknowledging the problem. Repubs agree that it's too expensive when pressed, but that's where the discussion ends for them. The cynic in me says Republicans hate higher-ed because more educated people don't generally vote for them, and that leads to apathy regarding a major social issue.
And the cynic in me says the Dems will not force any reforms in the outrageous tuition increases that have been prevalent year after year and will continue to make bad loans to kids whose studies are not preparing to earn income that would actually payoff those loans because Academia has always been a huge supporter of the Dems and liberal causes in general.

The solution is easy.
    1.Only loan amounts to kids or families what private sector underwriting guidelines suggest that they could pay off
    2. Tell overpriced schools that most government student loans will only pay a fraction of annual tuition amounts. If they do not make their business model much more affordable for the rank and file student, then plan on only 50% of the kids returning in the fall.
Dnicknames
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The student loan forgiveness argument is a straw man.

Neither party is proposing outright student loan forgiveness.

People get worked up over a policy that doesn't exist.
Oldbear83
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I would say loans should not be forgiven, but recommend the following changes:

1. No government loans - this is not a valid function of government, and it only made things worse

2. No bank can be punished for declining to offer a loan

3. Student loans can be included in bankruptcies if those bankruptcies are filed at least 3 years after leaving college

4. Public Universities are not allowed to charge tuition beyond an amount paid in full by at least 60% by a combination of payment not supported by loan - e.g. direct cash payment, scholarships, or grants

5. Universities may not charge interest on unpaid tuition/fees, regardless of age


br53
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The current interest rate on student loans is around 2.75%. How about they make it 1% since most of those loans take about 10-15 years to pay off. They still make money (not as much) and you still help people receive an education.
He Hate Me
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br53 said:

you still help people receive an education.
It is not my job or the job of any American taxpayer to help people receive higher education or whatever it is they do for four to seven years while proceeding toward a bachelor's degree.
br53
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Carlos Safety said:

br53 said:

you still help people receive an education.
It is not my job or the job of any American taxpayer to help people receive higher education or whatever it is they do for four to seven years while proceeding toward a bachelor's degree.
Well the banks making money really like to tell you how much they are helping you get an education by getting you this loan. And lowering the interest rate is a better option than forgiving the debt or erasing the interest accrued all together. Kind of like meeting in the middle, you know.
Oldbear83
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br53 said:

Carlos Safety said:

br53 said:

you still help people receive an education.
It is not my job or the job of any American taxpayer to help people receive higher education or whatever it is they do for four to seven years while proceeding toward a bachelor's degree.
Well the banks making money really like to tell you how much they are helping you get an education by getting you this loan. And lowering the interest rate is a better option than forgiving the debt or erasing the interest accrued all together. Kind of like meeting in the middle, you know.
I'd like to see the payout schedule and total payout amount detailed in any loan agreement.

He Hate Me
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br53 said:

Carlos Safety said:

br53 said:

you still help people receive an education.
It is not my job or the job of any American taxpayer to help people receive higher education or whatever it is they do for four to seven years while proceeding toward a bachelor's degree.
Well the banks making money really like to tell you how much they are helping you get an education by getting you this loan. And lowering the interest rate is a better option than forgiving the debt or erasing the interest accrued all together. Kind of like meeting in the middle, you know.
I really don't care if we lower the interest rate to 1% in this environment provided the lender is on board.
JXL
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Dnicknames said:

The student loan forgiveness argument is a straw man.

Neither party is proposing outright student loan forgiveness.

People get worked up over a policy that doesn't exist.


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/14/what-bidens-student-loan-forgiveness-plan-means-for-borrowers.html
HuMcK
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Do you think the system needs changing or not? This is what I was talking about, Dems say there's a problem, Repubs say "we won't forgive loans", Dems ask "ok then what should we do?", Repubs say "we wont forgive loans", and on and on. I have yet to hear Republicans advocate for a solution to any issue that isn't just cutting taxes or regulations in some way.

Same as the healthcare debates, Dems want to do something, Repubs don't, and that's it. An entire generation of students has loans that are non-dischargeable and are holding them (and the economy) back because of unreasonably high debt loads. And now the (older) people who were able to pay their $1500 tuition bills off in a few years are asking why the current youth are fed up with paying down $50,000 a year tuition bills. The answer is things have changed from the old days, in ways that are screwing over young people, and I just wish conservatives could recognize that.
Dnicknames
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JXL said:

Dnicknames said:

The student loan forgiveness argument is a straw man.

Neither party is proposing outright student loan forgiveness.

People get worked up over a policy that doesn't exist.


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/14/what-bidens-student-loan-forgiveness-plan-means-for-borrowers.html


Hope isn't a policy.

I've asked both Biden's campaign staffers and Democrat Hill staffers what a loan forgiveness policy would look like. Each said it is a talking point right now.

His transition team is focused on infrastructure. They want to eventually do a student loan reduction program that trades federal student loan buy downs for annual years of social service (teachers, social workers, public servants, etc); student loan forgiveness isn't high on their agenda right now though.
br53
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HuMcK said:

Do you think the system needs changing or not? This is what I was talking about, Dems say there's a problem, Repubs say "we won't forgive loans", Dems ask "ok then what should we do?", Repubs say "we wont forgive loans", and on and on. I have yet to hear Republicans advocate for a solution to any issue that isn't just cutting taxes or regulations in some way.

Same as the healthcare debates, Dems want to do something, Repubs don't, and that's it. An entire generation of students has loans that are non-dischargeable and are holding them (and the economy) back because of unreasonably high debt loads. And now the (older) people who were able to pay their $1500 tuition bills off in a few years are asking why the current youth are fed up with paying down $50,000 a year tuition bills. The answer is things have changed from the old days, in ways that are screwing over young people, and I just wish conservatives could recognize that.
I am a Republican. I just gave you my idea on meeting in the middle. Saves the borrowers $$, Banks still make some $$$ and universities are still allowed to continue raping and pillaging both parties.
He Hate Me
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HuMcK said:

Do you think the system needs changing or not? This is what I was talking about, Dems say there's a problem, Repubs say "we won't forgive loans", Dems ask "ok then what should we do?", Repubs say "we wont forgive loans", and on and on. I have yet to hear Republicans advocate for a solution to any issue that isn't just cutting taxes or regulations in some way.


The solution is that people pay their own bills and debts. It really is that simple.

Borrowing is the act of agreeing that you will consume more than you otherwise would today in exchange for consuming less than you otherwise could tomorrow. What the borrowers who are asking for "relief" are really saying is:

A. I want to keep the part where I consumed more today/yesterday than I otherwise would have, but

B. I want someone else to consume less tomorrow than they otherwise would, so that

C. I can consume as much or more tomorrow than I had bargained for.
HuMcK
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In other words you have no problem with the wild inflation of education and healthcare costs and are happy doing nothing to change that at all, got it.
HuMcK
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That's just kicking the can, changing interests rates does nothing about the actual cost of education.
Oldbear83
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Oldbear83 said:

I would say loans should not be forgiven, but recommend the following changes:

1. No government loans - this is not a valid function of government, and it only made things worse

2. No bank can be punished for declining to offer a loan

3. Student loans can be included in bankruptcies if those bankruptcies are filed at least 3 years after leaving college

4. Public Universities are not allowed to charge tuition beyond an amount paid in full by at least 60% by a combination of payment not supported by loan - e.g. direct cash payment, scholarships, or grants

5. Universities may not charge interest on unpaid tuition/fees, regardless of age



HuMcK, do you have a response to my suggestion above?

Workable?

If not, what would work better?
He Hate Me
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HuMcK said:

In other words you have no problem with the wild inflation of education and healthcare costs and are happy doing nothing to change that at all, got it.
If you want to get the government out of guaranteeing loans, which is one of the drivers of hyperinflation in the cost of higher ed, then I am all for it. But forgiving all or a portion of people's loans will do nothing to slow the rate of increase in the price of tuition and other expenses.

br53
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HuMcK said:

That's just kicking the can, changing interests rates does nothing about the actual cost of education.
Yea well lowering the interest on my new Tahoe doesnt do anything either but allow Chevy to keep charging 75K and I pay it cause my wife wanted it and I could afford it. Now as long as these dumbass little kids want to go to BU and UT and be teachers, underwater basket weavers and social workers let em rot in debt hell until they learn to make better decisions and get a degree worth more than the paper its printed on. I tried to help and meet in the middle but you liberal SOB's go back to blaming the businesses. Dont buy what you cant afford and dont chase an education that maxes out with income at 75k with a 200k education bill.
The battle is not yours, but God's.
2 Chronicles 20:15
fadskier
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HuMcK said:

In other words you have no problem with the wild inflation of education and healthcare costs and are happy doing nothing to change that at all, got it.
If someone wants to pursue a degree and pay an outraegous cost for it, how is that my fault?

My kids CHOSE to attend state schools...significantly cheaper than private schools. It's all about the choices we make and the ability or inability to deal with the consequences.
Salute the Marines - Joe Biden
HuMcK
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br53 said:

HuMcK said:

That's just kicking the can, changing interests rates does nothing about the actual cost of education.
Yea well lowering the interest on my new Tahoe doesnt do anything either but allow Chevy to keep charging 75K and I pay it cause my wife wanted it and I could afford it. Now as long as these dumbass little kids want to go to BU and UT and be teachers, underwater basket weavers and social workers let em rot in debt hell until they learn to make better decisions and get a degree worth more than the paper its printed on. I tried to help and meet in the middle but you liberal SOB's go back to blaming the businesses. Dont buy what you cant afford and dont chase an education that maxes out with income at 75k with a 200k education bill.

And Republicans wonder where the animosity towards them comes from.
HuMcK
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I like 2, 3, and 5, not sure I understand what 4 is saying.
br53
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HuMcK said:

br53 said:

HuMcK said:

That's just kicking the can, changing interests rates does nothing about the actual cost of education.
Yea well lowering the interest on my new Tahoe doesnt do anything either but allow Chevy to keep charging 75K and I pay it cause my wife wanted it and I could afford it. Now as long as these dumbass little kids want to go to BU and UT and be teachers, underwater basket weavers and social workers let em rot in debt hell until they learn to make better decisions and get a degree worth more than the paper its printed on. I tried to help and meet in the middle but you liberal SOB's go back to blaming the businesses. Dont buy what you cant afford and dont chase an education that maxes out with income at 75k with a 200k education bill.

And Republicans wonder where the animosity towards them comes from.
Well I tried to offer a compromise and you crapped all over it. So liberals want all of their demands met but dont want to give in on anything. We call those terrorists.
The battle is not yours, but God's.
2 Chronicles 20:15
GrowlTowel
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HuMcK said:

Instead of forgiving the loans outright, I wouldn't mind a reduction back to the principal amount, essentially forgiving interest instead of the loan itself. That would help out a whole lot of people, and isn't quite the handout that loan forgiveness is.

It's should be abundantly clear to everyone that the current higher-ed model is wildly overpriced and borderline predatory (similar to healthcare). I understand if conservatives don't want to pay off loans for people, but something needs to be done so we aren't saddling entire generations of students with essentially a mortgage payment.

As of now, just like the healthcare debates, Dems seem to be the only ones even acknowledging the problem. Repubs agree that it's too expensive when pressed, but that's where the discussion ends for them. The cynic in me says Republicans hate higher-ed because more educated people don't generally vote for them, and that leads to apathy regarding a major social issue.
This is honestly one of the dumbest things ever posted here.

First, Democrats in the 1990s created the "education debt" crisis. Get government out of the loan business and the problem fixes itself. Same for health care.

Second, more "educated people" don't vote for democrats. Hidin' Biden won an election based on massive voter fraud from inner-city Atlanta, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee. Those "votes" are not from educated people. They are from sheep. Without sheep, no democrat could ever win election because an educated person can see that their policies fail every time they are tried.
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Oldbear83
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HuMcK said:

I like 2, 3, and 5, not sure I understand what 4 is saying.
Part 4 comes from the universities jacking up tuition on confidence the students will be able to pay whatever they charge bc loans.

So limit loan money to no more than 40% of revenue collected, and this forces universities to consider limiting tuition rates.
Doc Holliday
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HuMcK said:

I like 2, 3, and 5, not sure I understand what 4 is saying.
Why don't you like 1?

Why not get the federal government out of the student loan business?
J.B.Katz
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Student debt doesn't go away if you go bankrupt.

Lots of people are going to go bankrupt during the pandemic due to circumstnaces beyond their control.

Maybe not forgive student debt but treat it the same as other debt in bankruptcy?

Going forward, I would also NOT allow government-sponsored student loans for for-profit schools like Trump U or Phoenix nor would I allow military ed benefits to go to those schools. Those are rip-offs
jimdue
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J.B.Katz said:

Student debt doesn't go away if you go bankrupt.

Lots of people are going to go bankrupt during the pandemic due to circumstnaces beyond their control.

Maybe not forgive student debt but treat it the same as other debt in bankruptcy?

Going forward, I would also NOT allow government-sponsored student loans for for-profit schools like Trump U or Phoenix nor would I allow military ed benefits to go to those schools. Those are rip-offs
And racking up debt at a state sponsored school in Gender Studies so you can work at Starbucks is not a rip off?
He Hate Me
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J.B.Katz said:



Maybe not forgive student debt but treat it the same as other debt in bankruptcy?


With a federal guarantee behind it, allowing the debt to be erased in bankruptcy is essentially the same as forgiving it.
beerman
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br53 said:

HuMcK said:

That's just kicking the can, changing interests rates does nothing about the actual cost of education.
Yea well lowering the interest on my new Tahoe doesnt do anything either but allow Chevy to keep charging 75K and I pay it cause my wife wanted it and I could afford it. Now as long as these dumbass little kids want to go to BU and UT and be teachers, underwater basket weavers and social workers let em rot in debt hell until they learn to make better decisions and get a degree worth more than the paper its printed on. I tried to help and meet in the middle but you liberal SOB's go back to blaming the businesses. Dont buy what you cant afford and dont chase an education that maxes out with income at 75k with a 200k education bill.


What HuMcK May not want to hear (and I don't know) is that perhaps not everyone should go to college. Perhaps there are alternatives like trade schools, jucos or maybe go straight into the workforce (a national apprentice program would be a good place to start). The fact is that our system of higher education has become another "not for profit-profit" model (like healthcare).

Every school you go to has gyms, multiple student activity centers, water parks, 20 cafeterias, private restaurants on campus etc etc., it's stupid. When my wife and went to Wake, Pepperdine, Smu, Tulane, Texas, Baylor, Rice, La Tech, Texas Tech, Tcu, Wichita State (I think that's all of them) with our kids for their campus visits, it was insane. They don't talk to the parents, they sell the kids and it's quite honestly embarrassing in the manner in which they go about it. They separate the prospective student at all the schools and they go see all the "fun" stuff while the parents are whisked away to meet with financial planners and start the "sales" process of "how you too can afford $300k of debt". Looking around you could just tell that the majority of the parents in the room were going to struggle to make it work.

It's a little disingenuous for anyone to suggest that republicans don't care about fixing the system that liberals have spent convincing the world over the last 50 years that "everyone deserves to be in".

Higher education isn't for everyone. There are countries like Sweden, Australia etc that have capitalist rules but zero issues with student debt. Debt isn't the problem, it's as br53s says, it's the ability, or lack there of, of the borrower's ability to pay it back that's the issue.
J.B.Katz
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jimdue said:

J.B.Katz said:

Student debt doesn't go away if you go bankrupt.

Lots of people are going to go bankrupt during the pandemic due to circumstnaces beyond their control.

Maybe not forgive student debt but treat it the same as other debt in bankruptcy?

Going forward, I would also NOT allow government-sponsored student loans for for-profit schools like Trump U or Phoenix nor would I allow military ed benefits to go to those schools. Those are rip-offs
And racking up debt at a state sponsored school in Gender Studies so you can work at Starbucks is not a rip off?
Not what I would do. Not what I'd help pay for my kids to do. Not what most students loans pay for.

The data's clear that people with a college degree get better jobs and make a lot more money over their lives.

I'm willing to support that by letting someone who declares bankruptcy during the pandemic because he lost employment, his wife lost employment, they ended up having to file for bankruptcy, off the hook for having to repay that loan he or she took out.
 
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