57Bear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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https://humanevents.com/2020/03/30/seize-the-endowments/

Quote:

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But what is that educational product worth? To be frank, colleges are gouging young people burdening them with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, at a very young age without providing anything of commensurate value. If this were happening in any other industry, we would call it fraud and shut down the entities responsible, with enforcement actions from the Justice Department or the FTC.


The answer to the debt crisis from people like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren is to cancel all student debt, and then make public college tuition-free. But there is a fundamental incoherence to this position: if student loan debt must be forgiven, isn't it fraudulent? Shouldn't we stop the fraud and make sure it doesn't happen again? Bernie wants to make Wall Street pay for it. But Wall Street didn't cause the problem; they didn't immiserate our children. Price-gouging universities are the ones turning children into indentured servants.

If we re-frame the issue using the language of fraud to talk about what the universities are doing, the weakness of the Bernie-Warren position is readily apparent. Students drowning in student loan debt are not freeloaders looking for a handout. They are, instead, the victims of fraud, a fraud jointly perpetrated by their alma mater and the federal government.

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Where does the buck stop, when the student loans are paid? Is it not you and me who pay the loan guarantees on unsecured student loans under a system designed by our Congressmen/Congresswomen?

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Our congress simply puts the burden on those making between $50k and $150k a year.

It occurs to me that it might be good to have a public database of schools, including trade and vocational schools, for people to check when considering career choices and educational options.

For example, my wife has not pursued college but holds a number of professional licenses in medication and nursing. There are a lot of schools which offer training for those licenses, but they vary widely in price, quality and accountability. The State of Texas does a pretty good job of making sure to identify credentialed schools, but even so the frauds are able to sucker too many people, and the credentialed schools are not all equal in value or results.

I'm sure the same thing is true in every type of trade education.

Could be money in that idea, talk to the VC or PE folks.

Canada2017 said:

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Student loans are going to be forgiven.

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I am celebrating your great news! I have a granddaughter who is a board certified neurologist, just finishing up a fellowship in movement disorders. Yay, she won't have to pay back any student loans.

Good for her but that's just flat out wrong

57Bear said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Student loans are going to be forgiven.

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I am celebrating your great news! I have a granddaughter who is a board certified neurologist, just finishing up a fellowship in movement disorders. Yay, she won't have to pay back any student loans.

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So it seems .

At least your granddaughter has a worthwhile degree and will be able to help many people .

Well done .

J.R. said:

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This is just crap!!!! My parents saved to put me through college and grad school. I saved to put my 2 kids through college. Just wrote my last check to Furman today!!!!!! I just got a big raise. My opinion is if you borrow $, you pay it back. It's really simple. My bankers and lenders require me to pay it all back!

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Nice to welcome you back to the party

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Your a joke. I can say what I believe. Shove it

No I don't think Jesus hates anyone. I'm not Jesus. I can have freedom to criticize her plans that are detrimental to my viewpoints and way of making a living and providing for my family. Her plans contradict mine. That's what I am critical of nothing else

Canada2017 said:

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Student loans are going to be forgiven.
Medical care will be 'free' for everyone.
Reparations are going to be handed out like Trick or Treat candy.
Taxes are going to skyrocket, jobs lost , and crime run amuck .

And 90% of the media is going to tell you its all good or Trump's fault .

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The Left always gets what they want in the end....because they only care about power and they know how to get it.

I am 100% confident that student load "forgiveness", along with "free" health care, and slave reparations are all going to eventually be passed into law.

nein51 said:

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J.R. said:

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This is just crap!!!! My parents saved to put me through college and grad school. I saved to put my 2 kids through college. Just wrote my last check to Furman today!!!!!! I just got a big raise. My opinion is if you borrow $, you pay it back. It's really simple. My bankers and lenders require me to pay it all back!

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Nice to welcome you back to the party

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

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found it funny!

BornAgain said:

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No I don't think Jesus hates anyone. I'm not Jesus. I can have freedom to criticize her plans that are detrimental to my viewpoints and way of making a living and providing for my family. Her plans contradict mine. That's what I am critical of nothing else

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How turning her name into an insult equate to criticizing her plans that you think are detrimental to your viewpoints and way of making a living and providing for your family?

And how can Harris or anybody be detrimental to your viewpoints? Harris = Pence. Anybody giving Pence credit or debit for what's happened the last 4 years? That's all on Trump; Pence was just a backdrop and a sop for the few evangelicals for whom Trump's public list of sins made him a hard sell. But Pence, they could tell themselves.

Whatever happens that's "detrimental" is going to be on Biden. It was disgusting to watch some right-wingers try to gin up fear that a woman, esp a black woman, might end up POTUS to try to get more people to vote for 4 more years of Trump chaos. Biden's healthier than Trump. He'll serve the full term.

Trump set a low standard for behavior toward others and lots of his supporters followed him down that path.

Redbrickbear said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Student loans are going to be forgiven.
Medical care will be 'free' for everyone.
Reparations are going to be handed out like Trick or Treat candy.
Taxes are going to skyrocket, jobs lost , and crime run amuck .

And 90% of the media is going to tell you its all good or Trump's fault .

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The Left always gets what they want in the end....because they only care about power and they know how to get it.

I am 100% confident that student load "forgiveness", along with "free" health care, and slave reparations are all going to eventually be passed into law.

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I'm a middle of the roader and I don't see a Left that always gets what they want.

I see a country where a majority of voters voted against Trump twice, but the first time the electoral system elected Trump because not enough people voted for Clinton.

I'm shaking my head at Republicans who think Trump's policies merited a second term when the deficit is through the roof and his Covid response killed a lot of people and really hurt the economy. That deficits only matter when a Dem's in the White House doesn't make Republicans look good. Maybe they pay more attention to fundamentals and try to move away from personalities like Trump that do more damage than good, and they win elections the real way instead of having to suppress the vote and then try to lawyer the election away from voters. That worked for Trump in business and other people paid for his mistakes. Glad it didn't for this election.

J.B.Katz said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Student loans are going to be forgiven.
Medical care will be 'free' for everyone.
Reparations are going to be handed out like Trick or Treat candy.
Taxes are going to skyrocket, jobs lost , and crime run amuck .

And 90% of the media is going to tell you its all good or Trump's fault .

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The Left always gets what they want in the end....because they only care about power and they know how to get it.

I am 100% confident that student load "forgiveness", along with "free" health care, and slave reparations are all going to eventually be passed into law.

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his Covid response killed a lot of people and really hurt the economy.

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You need a lesson in Federalism.

Fine. All true. Stop with the name calling and stick to policy.

J.R. said:

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This is just crap!!!! My parents saved to put me through college and grad school. I saved to put my 2 kids through college. Just wrote my last check to Furman today!!!!!! I just got a big raise. My opinion is if you borrow $, you pay it back. It's really simple. My bankers and lenders require me to pay it all back!

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Had your parents not paid for your school, would you be in the same position today? If you were 18 with today's tuition prices what would you do?

Kid's today are paying twice what I paid to go to school 20 years ago, but minimum wage is still the same as it was then. I don't know how one does it on their own anymore.

You're obviously a good parent and have made good decision with the education your parents gave you. It's just hard to feel sorry for your situation in comparison to an average 18 year old today.

Buddha Bear said:

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J.R. said:

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This is just crap!!!! My parents saved to put me through college and grad school. I saved to put my 2 kids through college. Just wrote my last check to Furman today!!!!!! I just got a big raise. My opinion is if you borrow $, you pay it back. It's really simple. My bankers and lenders require me to pay it all back!

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Had your parents not paid for your school, would you be in the same position today? If you were 18 today with today's tuition prices what would you do?

Kid's today are paying twice what I paid to go to school 20 years ago, but minimum wage is still the same as it was then. I don't know how one does it on their own anymore.

You're obviously a good parent and have made good decision with the education your parents gave you. It's just hard to feel sorry for your situation in comparison to and average 18 year old today.

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That is a very good question. Probably wouldn't be in the same spot. It was nice getting out of college and grad school with no debt. Oh, wan't looking for sympathy, whatsoever. I'm fortunate, but worked and saved. I graduated from BU in 88 and my dad thought it was bloody expensive then. I don't know how kids do it by themselves these days, either. I paid $55K (window sticker was $65K but for a $10K/yr scholarship) a year for 4years. Glad that's over. Have son at TT and all it at $22K, which is much, much better. He does have some Fraternity brothers that pay their own way. It is way out of control, because the govt. providing tons of free $ over the years and colleges kept jacking up tuition.

J.B.Katz said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Student loans are going to be forgiven.
Medical care will be 'free' for everyone.
Reparations are going to be handed out like Trick or Treat candy.
Taxes are going to skyrocket, jobs lost , and crime run amuck .

And 90% of the media is going to tell you its all good or Trump's fault .

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The Left always gets what they want in the end....because they only care about power and they know how to get it.

I am 100% confident that student load "forgiveness", along with "free" health care, and slave reparations are all going to eventually be passed into law.

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I'm shaking my head at Republicans who think Trump's policies merited a second term when the deficit is through the roof and his Covid response killed a lot of people and really hurt the economy. What will Biden do to reduce the National Debt?

That deficits only matter when a Dem's in the White House doesn't make Republicans look good. Deficits matter to this Republican and I've said so repeatedly, during Republican and Democrat administrations.

Maybe they pay more attention to fundamentals and try to move away from personalities like Trump that do more damage than good, and they win elections the real way instead of having to suppress the vote and then try to lawyer the election away from voters. I'm happy to discuss voting irregularities. I'm sure you are not in favor of illegal votes.

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Trump lost, Biden won. See observations in Bold above.

ATL Bear said:

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Buddha Bear said:

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J.R. said:

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This is just crap!!!! My parents saved to put me through college and grad school. I saved to put my 2 kids through college. Just wrote my last check to Furman today!!!!!! I just got a big raise. My opinion is if you borrow $, you pay it back. It's really simple. My bankers and lenders require me to pay it all back!

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Had your parents not paid for your school, would you be in the same position today? If you were 18 today with today's tuition prices what would you do?

Kid's today are paying twice what I paid to go to school 20 years ago, but minimum wage is still the same as it was then. I don't know how one does it on their own anymore.

You're obviously a good parent and have made good decision with the education your parents gave you. It's just hard to feel sorry for your situation in comparison to and average 18 year old today.

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The bad decision started with a choice to go to a school and/or pursue a career incapable of supporting your borrowing choices. It isn't as if the cost is unknown upfront.

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Yep you go to BU and come out as a Teacher coach or social worker or some other degree that doesn't pay well and has a history of not paying well that is your fault/poor decision.

Is that really where we're at now, going to college to be a teacher or coach is a bad financial decision, and you blame the students for that?

The "I got mine, screw everyone else" conservative stereotype lives on.

HuMcK said:

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Is that really where we're at now, going to college to be a teacher or coach is a bad financial decision, and you blame the students for that?

The "I got mine, screw everyone else" conservative stereotype lives on.

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I see the disconnect now. You think people are not responsible for the decisions they make.

Or maybe the system could stand to see some changes so that becoming a teacher or coach isn't a bad financial decision?

Is that what conservatism is now, just grievances and standing in the way of any positive change whatsoever?

HuMcK said:

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Or maybe the system could stand to see some changes so that becoming a teacher or coach isn't a bad financial decision?

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Umm, nope. Again you make certain decisions knowing full well up front the cost and benefits. It is not on society to help you have your cake and eat it to.

HuMcK said:

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Is that really where we're at now, going to college to be a teacher or coach is a bad financial decision, and you blame the students for that?

The "I got mine, screw everyone else" conservative stereotype lives on.

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You don't need to go to BU to be a teacher.

ATL Bear said:

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HuMcK said:

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Is that really where we're at now, going to college to be a teacher or coach is a bad financial decision, and you blame the students for that?

The "I got mine, screw everyone else" conservative stereotype lives on.

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You don't need to go to BU to be a teacher.

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True. But BU happens to have a terrific program, as opposed to some public diploma mills. During the pandemic I have seen multiple variations of a meme suggesting that parents with kids at home suddenly want to pay teachers higher salaries. Higher salaries usually, but not always, reflect a shortage in supply. The diploma mills keep us fully supplied with teachers that are not classroom ready.

The use of govt funds/loan guarantees/goodies is not working. If you are in a position to donate a scholarship, think about funding one in the BU education department. And if you talk to a development officer tie it to a decrease in tuition.

Alternatively, support legislative changes that would empower principals to have the freedom to fire bad teachers instead of reassigning them to a slot where you hope they fail so monumentally that they will quit in shame; there are some shameless ****ing teachers out there.

HuMcK said:

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Is that really where we're at now, going to college to be a teacher or coach is a bad financial decision, and you blame the students for that?

The "I got mine, screw everyone else" conservative stereotype lives on.

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I think you are going at this the wrong way.

First, as has been mentioned before, college is not for everyone. Before WW2, in fact, college was not the common last stop of education for most Americans. The myth that a college degree was a sure road to a good wage and job became popular during the Boomer years, while blue-collar trades languished in some places and thrived below the social radar in others. My point is that if college is too cheap, students will not stop to consider their decision as they should,

Second, I think we have reached a rough consensus that colleges and universities have gotten way too expensive, degree plans too elaborate, government plans too complex and which result in only raising tuition, bank loans too greedy and unfair, and students too quick to commit to contracts they don't understand. Any real solution has to address all of those things.

The problem I see is that we get caught up in the emotion of 'winning arguments', which leads to circles rather than solutions.

HuMcK said:

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Or maybe the system could stand to see some changes so that becoming a teacher or coach isn't a bad financial decision?

Is that what conservatism is now, just grievances and standing in the way of any positive change whatsoever?

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It's not a bad financial decision.

You can have everything you need on a teachers salary.

The problem is teachers wanting a lifestyle that they don't deserve: You can't have a Beamer and a $700k home as a teacher or high school coach.

You can have a Kia Rio and a $150k home.

its not hat they dont deserve all those nice things, its that they cant afford it on a teachers salary.