Help me understand

6,180 Views | 300 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by curtpenn
GoldMind
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There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

Oldbear83
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GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
I'm not clergy, but my understanding is that communion is only taken once a month to make it special, and Baptists have always had a thing about alcohol. I recall one Sunday School where someone asked about that since Jesus turned water into wine, and the teacher passed it off as the 'wine' being just strong fruit juice.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Osodecentx
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GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate
Baylor3216
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Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
I'm not clergy, but my understanding is that communion is only taken once a month to make it special, and Baptists have always had a thing about alcohol. I recall one Sunday School where someone asked about that since Jesus turned water into wine, and the teacher passed it off as the 'wine' being just strong fruit juice.


Partaking of the body of Christ isn't special enough that man had to make it even more special?
D. C. Bear
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Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
I'm not clergy, but my understanding is that communion is only taken once a month to make it special, and Baptists have always had a thing about alcohol. I recall one Sunday School where someone asked about that since Jesus turned water into wine, and the teacher passed it off as the 'wine' being just strong fruit juice.


Baptists have not "always" had a thing about alcohol.
Here's an interesting article.

https://baptistnews.com/article/baptist-history-on-alcohol-not-totally-teetotaling/#.YI9kNyU8IlQ
Aliceinbubbleland
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GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
There is much about the Baptist demonization that they don't understand except looking over the shoulder.
Oldbear83
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Baylor3216 said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
I'm not clergy, but my understanding is that communion is only taken once a month to make it special, and Baptists have always had a thing about alcohol. I recall one Sunday School where someone asked about that since Jesus turned water into wine, and the teacher passed it off as the 'wine' being just strong fruit juice.


Partaking of the body of Christ isn't special enough that man had to make it even more special?
Caiaphas is the Bible for a reason ...
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
LIB,MR BEARS
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Aliceinbubbleland said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
There is much about the Baptist demonization that they don't understand except looking over the shoulder.
Our Wednesday golf group used to have a Baptist in it. When a second one joined, the first one quit. I never knew why.
SSadler
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I would take a shot at explaining this from a historical perspective, but one can come after me who is much greater than I am.

His name is Alan Lefevre (ALefevre as you know him).

He's bona fide !
GoldMind
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SSadler said:

I would take a shot at explaining this from a historical perspective, but one can come after me who is much greater than I am.

His name is Alan Lefevre (ALefevre as you know him).

He's bona fide !


I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality.

We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

whiterock
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SSadler said:

I would take a shot at explaining this from a historical perspective, but one can come after me who is much greater than I am.

His name is Alan Lefevre (ALefevre as you know him).

He's bona fide !
indeed. It's almost like he has a PhD in these matters!
Oldbear83
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D. C. Bear said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
I'm not clergy, but my understanding is that communion is only taken once a month to make it special, and Baptists have always had a thing about alcohol. I recall one Sunday School where someone asked about that since Jesus turned water into wine, and the teacher passed it off as the 'wine' being just strong fruit juice.


Baptists have not "always" had a thing about alcohol.
Here's an interesting article.

https://baptistnews.com/article/baptist-history-on-alcohol-not-totally-teetotaling/#.YI9kNyU8IlQ
I was speaking only from my experience.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
curtpenn
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GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
Baptist origins are fascinating, as are the related developments among the Continental Reformers, Anabaptists, Puritans, perhaps even Albigensians/Cathars prior to that, etc. Complex topic, but I think of them mostly as reactions contra Rome. Some more extreme than others. They are generally movements away from the hierarchical structure itself, as well as the Mass. Greater emphasis on preaching and individual reading of the Bible (which was a radical concept at the time - hard to grasp the impact of literacy and printing at this remove).

Grew up Southern Baptist, but found I despised Contemporary Christian Music and the whole "worship wars" thing. Discovered a love for more formal liturgical worship and all the attendant "smells and bells", so was confirmed in the Episcopal Church almost 24 years ago. Love the focus on the Eucharist as the central act of worship. Bible teaching can be done in other times and places.
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
I'm not clergy, but my understanding is that communion is only taken once a month to make it special, and Baptists have always had a thing about alcohol. I recall one Sunday School where someone asked about that since Jesus turned water into wine, and the teacher passed it off as the 'wine' being just strong fruit juice.
Four Great Religious Truths

1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen people.
2. Jews do not recognize Christ as the Messiah.
3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as leader of the Christian world.
4. Baptists do not recognize each other at the liquor store.
"Fear does not prevent death. It prevents life."
GoldMind
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This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

Mothra
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GoldMind said:

SSadler said:

I would take a shot at explaining this from a historical perspective, but one can come after me who is much greater than I am.

His name is Alan Lefevre (ALefevre as you know him).

He's bona fide !


I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality.


Perhaps because the bible really doesn't speak to much liturgy in the early Christian church. Yes, we should partake in communion and baptism, but many denominations have liturgy that doesn't comport with scripture. The Catholics are a clear example. They've added ritual to mass that clearly has no basis in scripture.
Mothra
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GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.
GoldMind
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Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

trey3216
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GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart. The standard liturgy makes it much easier to kind of go through the motions of worship rather than challenging yourself to come from the heart in earnest regarding your personal worship. It's just a different view of how we present ourselves before God.

Confession- Why do I need to speak to a priest about my sins when I can ask God forgiveness earnestly, and directly. The priest is also a sinner, and is not on a higher plane of religious might than I am. I will ask him to pray for me, but not on my behalf en lieu of me also praying for myself.

Communion- The Lord's Supper is an extraordinarily special expression of the representation of the Body & Blood of Christ. Why water it down as formality rather than celebrate it with contemplative reverence?

Baptism- Baptism in the Baptist Church is an outward expression that you have placed your Faith in Jesus Christ and believe in Him as your Resurrected Lord & Savior, rather than being baptized as an infant when you cannot express faith in anything other than your mom/dad are going to provide you with milk.

Just a few thoughts...
Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
GoldMind
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trey3216 said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart. The standard liturgy makes it much easier to kind of go through the motions of worship rather than challenging yourself to come from the heart in earnest regarding your personal worship. It's just a different view of how we present ourselves before God.

Confession- Why do I need to speak to a priest about my sins when I can ask God forgiveness earnestly, and directly. The priest is also a sinner, and is not on a higher plane of religious might than I am. I will ask him to pray for me, but not on my behalf en lieu of me also praying for myself.

Communion- The Lord's Supper is an extraordinarily special expression of the representation of the Body & Blood of Christ. Why water it down as formality rather than celebrate it with contemplative reverence?

Baptism- Baptism in the Baptist Church is an outward expression that you have placed your Faith in Jesus Christ and believe in Him as your Resurrected Lord & Savior, rather than being baptized as an infant when you cannot express faith in anything other than your mom/dad are going to provide you with milk.

Just a few thoughts...


This is what I wanted to know, thank you
We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

Redbrickbear
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I don't know why we only do communion once a month.

But as for alcohol: "The bread of Passover and the Lord's Supper is to be unleavened. It naturally follows that the cup should also be without leaven or ferment. Also, although the historic and ecumenical Christian practice has been to use wine, the use of unfermented grape juice by the Church since the late nineteenth century expresses pastoral concern for recovering alcoholics, enables the participation of children and youth, and supports the church's witness of abstinence."

So those are the simple reasons why Baptist Churches use grape juice instead of alcohol.

BearTruth13
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GoldMind said:

trey3216 said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart. The standard liturgy makes it much easier to kind of go through the motions of worship rather than challenging yourself to come from the heart in earnest regarding your personal worship. It's just a different view of how we present ourselves before God.

Confession- Why do I need to speak to a priest about my sins when I can ask God forgiveness earnestly, and directly. The priest is also a sinner, and is not on a higher plane of religious might than I am. I will ask him to pray for me, but not on my behalf en lieu of me also praying for myself.

Communion- The Lord's Supper is an extraordinarily special expression of the representation of the Body & Blood of Christ. Why water it down as formality rather than celebrate it with contemplative reverence?

Baptism- Baptism in the Baptist Church is an outward expression that you have placed your Faith in Jesus Christ and believe in Him as your Resurrected Lord & Savior, rather than being baptized as an infant when you cannot express faith in anything other than your mom/dad are going to provide you with milk.

Just a few thoughts...


This is what I wanted to know, thank you


You couldn't put any of that together?
GoldMind
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BearTruth13 said:

GoldMind said:

trey3216 said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart. The standard liturgy makes it much easier to kind of go through the motions of worship rather than challenging yourself to come from the heart in earnest regarding your personal worship. It's just a different view of how we present ourselves before God.

Confession- Why do I need to speak to a priest about my sins when I can ask God forgiveness earnestly, and directly. The priest is also a sinner, and is not on a higher plane of religious might than I am. I will ask him to pray for me, but not on my behalf en lieu of me also praying for myself.

Communion- The Lord's Supper is an extraordinarily special expression of the representation of the Body & Blood of Christ. Why water it down as formality rather than celebrate it with contemplative reverence?

Baptism- Baptism in the Baptist Church is an outward expression that you have placed your Faith in Jesus Christ and believe in Him as your Resurrected Lord & Savior, rather than being baptized as an infant when you cannot express faith in anything other than your mom/dad are going to provide you with milk.

Just a few thoughts...


This is what I wanted to know, thank you


You couldn't put any of that together?


Nope, I'm a big ol stupid dumbass.
We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

C. Jordan
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GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
First, Baptists don't call it the Eucharist. They call it the Lord's Supper.

Second, a few Baptist churches do celebrate the Lord's Supper every Sunday.

Third, since they believe it's a symbol of a spiritual reality and a memorial to Christ's death rather than a sacrament, most don't believe it needs to be celebrated every week. Most celebrate it about once every three months.

Fourth, Baptist churches used wine until the Temperance movement of the late 1800s. They switched to grape juice following that.
C. Jordan
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Aliceinbubbleland said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
There is much about the Baptist demonization that they don't understand except looking over the shoulder.
Our Wednesday golf group used to have a Baptist in it. When a second one joined, the first one quit. I never knew why.
Don't know about this.

I do know that you should always take at least 2 Baptists fishing with you.

If you take one, he'll drink all your beer!
BearTruth13
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C. Jordan said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Aliceinbubbleland said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
There is much about the Baptist demonization that they don't understand except looking over the shoulder.
Our Wednesday golf group used to have a Baptist in it. When a second one joined, the first one quit. I never knew why.
Don't know about this.

I do know that you should always take at least 2 Baptists fishing with you.

If you take one, he'll drink all your beer!


Don't know if it's a generational thing but most Baptists I know under 40 drink and drink in groups.
curtpenn
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Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

SSadler said:

I would take a shot at explaining this from a historical perspective, but one can come after me who is much greater than I am.

His name is Alan Lefevre (ALefevre as you know him).

He's bona fide !


I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality.


Perhaps because the bible really doesn't speak to much liturgy in the early Christian church. Yes, we should partake in communion and baptism, but many denominations have liturgy that doesn't comport with scripture. The Catholics are a clear example. They've added ritual to mass that clearly has no basis in scripture.
There's a thread that ties together ancient temple worship by the Hebrews all the way through the rise of Judaism and continuing into the early Church. Jesus would have been quite at home with the liturgy of his earthly time.
Oldbear83
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GoldMind said:

BearTruth13 said:

GoldMind said:

trey3216 said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart. The standard liturgy makes it much easier to kind of go through the motions of worship rather than challenging yourself to come from the heart in earnest regarding your personal worship. It's just a different view of how we present ourselves before God.

Confession- Why do I need to speak to a priest about my sins when I can ask God forgiveness earnestly, and directly. The priest is also a sinner, and is not on a higher plane of religious might than I am. I will ask him to pray for me, but not on my behalf en lieu of me also praying for myself.

Communion- The Lord's Supper is an extraordinarily special expression of the representation of the Body & Blood of Christ. Why water it down as formality rather than celebrate it with contemplative reverence?

Baptism- Baptism in the Baptist Church is an outward expression that you have placed your Faith in Jesus Christ and believe in Him as your Resurrected Lord & Savior, rather than being baptized as an infant when you cannot express faith in anything other than your mom/dad are going to provide you with milk.

Just a few thoughts...


This is what I wanted to know, thank you


You couldn't put any of that together?


Nope, I'm a big ol stupid dumbass.
We all are. The good 'uns admit it, is all.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
curtpenn
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BearTruth13 said:

GoldMind said:

trey3216 said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart. The standard liturgy makes it much easier to kind of go through the motions of worship rather than challenging yourself to come from the heart in earnest regarding your personal worship. It's just a different view of how we present ourselves before God.

Confession- Why do I need to speak to a priest about my sins when I can ask God forgiveness earnestly, and directly. The priest is also a sinner, and is not on a higher plane of religious might than I am. I will ask him to pray for me, but not on my behalf en lieu of me also praying for myself.

Communion- The Lord's Supper is an extraordinarily special expression of the representation of the Body & Blood of Christ. Why water it down as formality rather than celebrate it with contemplative reverence?

Baptism- Baptism in the Baptist Church is an outward expression that you have placed your Faith in Jesus Christ and believe in Him as your Resurrected Lord & Savior, rather than being baptized as an infant when you cannot express faith in anything other than your mom/dad are going to provide you with milk.

Just a few thoughts...


This is what I wanted to know, thank you


You couldn't put any of that together?
I've often wondered about the relationship between personality characteristics and worship preferences. As the son, grandson, and son-in-law of Baptist deacons, Baylor grad, part time Music and Youth Director a couple of times during my college days, and faithful Baptist well into my '40s, I discovered the Book of Common Prayer and liturgy enabled me to worship in a deeper and more meaningful way than I had ever before experienced; nothing like your description. Further, Baptists for the most part fall on the part of the spectrum that regards Communion as a memorialization. My view is that the Eucharist is the central act of worship in which the Communion of Saints (all believers who ever were combined with all you are now present in the flesh) partake of the physical body and blood of Christ in manner in which I am not so bold as to be able to explain, but accept as true. Far from being being "watered down", this act is elevated as the ultimate aim of worship. Having deacons passing out trays of grape juice in plastic cups and plates of unleavened crackers just doesn't move the needle for me, and is a pale substitute for the ultimate mystery.

Pedobaptism falls into the category of adiaphora for me. I am pleased both of my grandsons were baptized as infants. Confirmation classes are typically taught to 12-year-olds with Confirmation performed at the conclusion. From the 1928 Book of Common Prayer for your consideration; I particularly love the last paragraph which was used at our grands' Baptisms:

DEARLY beloved, forasmuch as our Saviour Christ saith, None can enter into the Kingdom of God, except he be regenerate and born anew of Water and of the Holy Ghost; I beseech you to call upon God the Father, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that of his bounteous mercy he will grant to this Child (or Person) that which by nature he cannot have; that he may be baptized with Water and the Holy Ghost, and received into Christ's holy Church, and be made a living member of the same.
Quote:

Quote:

Then shall the Minister say,
Let us pray.

ALMIGHTY and immortal God, the aid of all who need, the helper of all who flee to thee for succour, the life of those who believe, and the resurrection of the dead; We call upon thee for this Child (or this thy Servant), that he, coming to thy holy Baptism, may receive remission of sin, by spiritual regeneration. Receive him, O Lord, as thou hast promised by thy well-beloved Son, saying, Ask, arid ye shall have; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. So give now unto us who ask; let us 'who seek, find; open the gate unto us who knock; that this Child (or this thy Servant) may enjoy the everlasting benediction of thy heavenly washing, and may come to the eternal kingdom which thou hast promised by Christ our Lord. Amen.


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Then the Minister shall say as followeth:

Hear the words of the Gospel, written by St. Mark, in the tenth Chapter, at the thirteenth Verse.
THEY brought young children to Christ, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.
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Or this.

Hear the words of the Gospel, written by St. John, in the third Chapter, at the first Verse.
THERE was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: the same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but. canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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Or this.

Hear the words of the Gospel, written by St. Matthew, in the twenty-eighth Chapter, at the eighteenth Verse.
JESUS came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.


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Then shall the Minister say:

AND now, we being persuaded of the good will of our heavenly Father toward this Child (this Person) declared by his Son Jesus Christ; let us faithfully and devoutly give thanks unto him and say,

Minister and People
ALMIGHTY and everlasting God, heavenly Father, We give thee humble thanks, That thou hast vouchsafed to call us to the knowledge of thy grace, and faith in thee: Increase this knowledge, And confirm this faith, in us evermore. Give thy Holy Spirit to this Child (or this thy Servant), That he may be born again, And be made an heir of everlasting salvation; Through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, Now and forever. Amen.


When the Office is used for Children, the Minister shall speak unto the Godfathers and Godmothers on this wise.
DEARLY beloved, ye have brought this Child here to be baptized; ye have prayed that our Lord Jesus Christ would vouchsafe to receive him, to release him from sin, to sanctify him with the Holy Ghost, to give him the kingdom of heaven, and everlasting life.
Dost thou, therefore, in the name of this Child, renounce the devil and all his works, the vain pomp and glory of the world, with all covetous desires of the same, and the sinful desires of the flesh, so that thou wilt not follow, nor be led by them?
Answer. I renounce them all; and, by God's help, will endeavor not to follow, nor be led by them.
Minister. Dost thou believe all the Articles of the Christian Faith, as contained in the Apostles' Creed?
Answer. I do.
Minister. Wilt thou be baptized in this Faith?
Answer. That is my desire.
Minister. Wilt thou then obediently keep God's holy will and commandments, and walk in the same all the days of thy life?
Answer. I will, by God's help.
Minister. Having now, in the name of this Child, made these promises, will ye also on your part take heed that he learn the Creed, the Lord's Prayer, and the Ten Commandments, and all other things which a Christian ought to know and believe, to his soul's health?
Answer. I will, by God's help.
Minister. Will ye take heed that this Child, so soon as sufficiently instructed, be brought to the Bishop to be confirmed by him?
Answer. I will, God being my helper.


When the Office is used for Adults, the Minister shall address them on this wise, the Persons to be baptized answering the questions for themselves.
WELL-BELOVED, you have come hither desiring to receive holy Baptism. We have prayed that our Lord Jesus Christ would vouchsafe to receive you, to release you from sin, to sanctify you with the Holy Ghost, to give you the kingdom of heaven, and everlasting life.
DOST thou renounce the devil and all his works, the vain pomp and glory of the world, with all covetous desires of the same, and the sinful desires of the flesh, so that thou wilt not follow, nor be led by them?
Answer. I renounce them all; and, by God's help, will endeavour not to follow, nor be led by them.
Minister. Dost thou believe in Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God?
Answer. I do.
Minister. Dost thou accept him, and desire to follow him as thy Saviour and Lord?
Answer. I do.
Minister. Dost thou believe all the Articles of the Christian Faith, as contained in the Apostles' Creed?
Answer. I do.
Minister. Wilt thou be baptized in this Faith?
Answer. That is my desire.
Minister. Wilt thou then obediently keep God's holy will and commandments, and walk in the same all the days of thy life?
Answer. I will, by God's help.


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Then shall the Minister say,

O MERCIFUL God, grant that like as Christ died and rose again, so this Child (this thy Servant) may die to sin and rise to newness of life. Amen.
Grant that all sinful affections may die in him, and that all things belonging to the Spirit may live and grow in him. Amen.
Grant that he may have power and strength to have victory, and to triumph, against the devil, the world, and the flesh. Amen.
Grant that whosoever is here dedicated to thee by our office and ministry, may also be endued with heavenly virtues, and everlastingly rewarded, through thy mercy, O blessed Lord God, who dost live, and govern all things, world without end. Amen.



Minister.
The Lord be with you.

Answer.
And with thy spirit.

Minister.
Lift up your hearts.

Answer.
We lift them up unto the Lord.

Minister.
Let us give thanks unto our Lord God.

Answer.
It is meet and right so to do.

Then the Minister shall say,
IT is very meet, right, and our bounden duty, that we should give thanks unto thee, O Lord, Holy Father, Al-mighty, Everlasting God, for that thy dearly beloved Son Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of our sins, did shed out of his most precious side both water and blood; and gave commandment to his disciples, that they should go teach all nations, and baptize them In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Regard, we beseech thee, the supplications of thy congregation; sanctify this Water to the mystical washing away of sin; and grant that this Child (this thy Servant), now to be baptized therein, may receive the fulness of thy grace, and ever remain in the number of thy faithful children; through the same Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with thee, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, be all honour and glory, now and evermore. Amen.
Then the Minister shall take the Child into his hands, and shall say to the Godfathers and Godmothers,
Name this Child.
And then, naming the child after them, he shall dip him in the Water discreetly, or shall pour Water upon him, saying,
N.I baptize thee In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
But NOTE, That if the Person to be baptized be an Adult, the Minister shall take him by the hand, and shall ask the Witnesses the Name; and then shall dip him in the Water, or pour Water upon him, using the same form of words.


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Then shall the Minister say,

WE receive this Child into the congregation of Christ's flock; and do *sign him with the sign of the Cross, in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confess the faith of Christ crucified, and manfully to fight under his banner, against sin, the world, and the devil; and to continue Christ's faithful soldier and servant unto his life's end. Amen.
Mothra
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GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?
Mothra
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trey3216 said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart.
Bingo. Can't tell you how many Presbyterian services I have sat through the years where the pastor reads a prayer from a script to the congregation, and we have our little script and are supposed to respond to it. None of it comes from the heart.
Mothra
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curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

SSadler said:

I would take a shot at explaining this from a historical perspective, but one can come after me who is much greater than I am.

His name is Alan Lefevre (ALefevre as you know him).

He's bona fide !


I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality.


Perhaps because the bible really doesn't speak to much liturgy in the early Christian church. Yes, we should partake in communion and baptism, but many denominations have liturgy that doesn't comport with scripture. The Catholics are a clear example. They've added ritual to mass that clearly has no basis in scripture.
There's a thread that ties together ancient temple worship by the Hebrews all the way through the rise of Judaism and continuing into the early Church. Jesus would have been quite at home with the liturgy of his earthly time.
It depends on the liturgy.
curtpenn
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Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?
Respectfully, I believe it is overly presumptuous to assert that the majority of all Christians who have ever lived were engaged in "a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions". You might consider the liturgy as a window into something deeper, analagous to the use of icons in the Orthodox tradition. Your mileage may vary.
curtpenn
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Mothra said:

trey3216 said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart.
Bingo. Can't tell you how many Presbyterian services I have sat through the years where the pastor reads a prayer from a script to the congregation, and we have our little script and are supposed to respond to it. None of it comes from the heart.
Isn't that mainly a statement about the spiritual state of the congregants rather than the style of worship?
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?
Respectfully, I believe it is overly presumptuous to assert that the majority of all Christians who have ever lived were engaged in "a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions". You might consider the liturgy as a window into something deeper, analagous to the use of icons in the Orthodox tradition. Your mileage may vary.
Certainly I am not suggesting that the majority of Christians have engaged in "a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions". I do think that some of the creeds are worth repeating certainly. But I do think there is a tendency to go through the motions with a lot of liturgy. And certainly some of its is not biblical.
 
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