Help me understand

14,019 Views | 299 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by curtpenn
Oldbear83
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GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

Indeed? Explain please.


No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.


The rich man, even in hell, is still all about himself. Abraham tells him why he's there, and he's still too stupid and selfish to repent. Instead, he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to intercede on his brothers, who are probably *******s as well, behalf.

So, instead of cracking stupid jokes about cell phones, perhaps you can offer something of substance to this discussion.

I have, actually. You, whether you realize it or not, are doing just what you falsely accuse me of doing.

I get it that you don't like the idea that praying to a dead human might be a bad thing. I get it that you will ignore any explanation that shows that intercessory prayer by someone alive that you know is nowhere near the same thing as praying to a dead person you never met, hoping to improve your standing with God by name-dropping.

I even get it that you resort to spiteful attacks to try to shut up anything that might challenge your habits. That's natural for a lot of people, but this issue is important, in part for the historical impact it had on the creation of the Protestant Reformation, and in part for the erosion of faith in Christ by reaching out to humans instead of our Lord for the things we need.





Yea that's in your head, just like Rhule is a crappy coach.

You've been a complete turd since you joined this board.
So, all you can do is throw insults.

Noted.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
curtpenn
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Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

Indeed? Explain please.


No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.


The rich man, even in hell, is still all about himself. Abraham tells him why he's there, and he's still too stupid and selfish to repent. Instead, he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to intercede on his brothers, who are probably *******s as well, behalf.

So, instead of cracking stupid jokes about cell phones, perhaps you can offer something of substance to this discussion.

I have, actually. You, whether you realize it or not, are doing just what you falsely accuse me of doing.

I get it that you don't like the idea that praying to a dead human might be a bad thing. I get it that you will ignore any explanation that shows that intercessory prayer by someone alive that you know is nowhere near the same thing as praying to a dead person you never met, hoping to improve your standing with God by name-dropping.

I even get it that you resort to spiteful attacks to try to shut up anything that might challenge your habits. That's natural for a lot of people, but this issue is important, in part for the historical impact it had on the creation of the Protestant Reformation, and in part for the erosion of faith in Christ by reaching out to humans instead of our Lord for the things we need.


But don't you reach out to humans when you request prayer? The blindness is yours and I understand there's no help for that. You still have nothing from Holy Scripture you can point to that says I am in error.

Do you side with the Church of Christ in keeping musical instruments out of services (using the same rational you use)?
D. C. Bear
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GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Proud 1992 Alum said:

It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.


I don't think we are talking past each other at all. We just have differing views on the Communion of Saints. One side mostly argues from silence and the other has 2000 years of teaching and practice. I totally understand the reaction contra Rome. Just think it went too far.
Again, with all due respect, this does not a good argument make. You have not a single example you can point to in scripture of prayers to long dead mortals, and your position is because the bible doesn't say you cannot do it, it must be ok? I would argue that the fact Christ constantly references that he is the only way to God is our answer.




Revelation 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11

Saints are not dead, but fully alive in Christ see John 11:25, 14:6.

There are other examples, see Genesis 20:7 and also Job 42:8.
To clarify, I meant dead on the earth. There is no scriptural support for the position that saints hear our prayers, much less intercede on our behalf. And certainly, there is no scriptural support for the position that we should pray to them, or ask for their intercession.
At this point, you DC and Oldbear83 just don't care enough to consider what the majority of Christians worldwide have accepted for centuries.

People forget quickly, Martin Luther and Henry VIII didnt have an issue with theology, they had an issue with ecclesiastical order.


I have considered it. I just don't find it necessary or find any scriptural support for asking those who have, as Paul says, fallen asleep, to intercede on our behalf. I do find scriptural support for the idea that Jesus is our advocate.
curtpenn
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Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...
Mothra
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curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...
All reports of prayer in scripture were said directly to God. Again, I appreciate you providing the Catholic perspective, but I just don't find silence as persuasive support for the practice.
curtpenn
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Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...
All reports of prayer in scripture were said directly to God. Again, I appreciate you providing the Catholic perspective, but I just don't find silence as persuasive support for the practice.
So, when you pray do you only go into your room and close the door as per Matthew 6:5-8? If not, why not?
Mothra
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curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...
All reports of prayer in scripture were said directly to God. Again, I appreciate you providing the Catholic perspective, but I just don't find silence as persuasive support for the practice.
So, when you pray do you only go into your room and close the door as per Matthew 6:5-8? If not, why not?
I am not sure of the relevance of this one. Typically I pray alone, yes, when I roll out of bed each morning. Does that mean praying publicly is wrong? No, there are examples of public prayer in scripture. Matt. 6:5-8 was admonishing those who pray in public for show.
GoldMind
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Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...
All reports of prayer in scripture were said directly to God. Again, I appreciate you providing the Catholic perspective, but I just don't find silence as persuasive support for the practice.


I quoted you several examples from scripture you clearly chose to ignore.
Winning by cheating is just as impressive as winning fairly, probably even more so. Your opponent was better than you in every way, and you beat them with your brain.
curtpenn
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Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Proud 1992 Alum said:

It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.


I don't think we are talking past each other at all. We just have differing views on the Communion of Saints. One side mostly argues from silence and the other has 2000 years of teaching and practice. I totally understand the reaction contra Rome. Just think it went too far.
Again, with all due respect, this does not a good argument make. You have not a single example you can point to in scripture of prayers to long dead mortals, and your position is because the bible doesn't say you cannot do it, it must be ok? I would argue that the fact Christ constantly references that he is the only way to God is our answer.


Nothing I have said or believe contradicts that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father.
Oldbear83
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curtpenn said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

Indeed? Explain please.


No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.


The rich man, even in hell, is still all about himself. Abraham tells him why he's there, and he's still too stupid and selfish to repent. Instead, he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to intercede on his brothers, who are probably *******s as well, behalf.

So, instead of cracking stupid jokes about cell phones, perhaps you can offer something of substance to this discussion.

I have, actually. You, whether you realize it or not, are doing just what you falsely accuse me of doing.

I get it that you don't like the idea that praying to a dead human might be a bad thing. I get it that you will ignore any explanation that shows that intercessory prayer by someone alive that you know is nowhere near the same thing as praying to a dead person you never met, hoping to improve your standing with God by name-dropping.

I even get it that you resort to spiteful attacks to try to shut up anything that might challenge your habits. That's natural for a lot of people, but this issue is important, in part for the historical impact it had on the creation of the Protestant Reformation, and in part for the erosion of faith in Christ by reaching out to humans instead of our Lord for the things we need.


But don't you reach out to humans when you request prayer? The blindness is yours and I understand there's no help for that. You still have nothing from Holy Scripture you can point to that says I am in error.
I reach out to (a) people I personally know, and (b) can reach in actuality (meet, mail, phone, text). I do not reach out to people I have never met, or who cannot be reached.

You keep accusing me of "blindness" when I have explained this point several times already. I try to be courteous despite the insults hurled by you and Goldmind, and I try to stick to the point, which is that there is no Scriptural basis for praying to someone not on earth. And yes, that is more than 'silence'.

I noted, for example, that when the rich man (in the parable of Lazarus the beggar) asked Abraham to contact his brothers, Abraham told him they had Scripture.

There are very few instances in Scripture of people speaking with Angels, and when that happens it is always either judgment from the Lord (such as 'Mene Mene ...) or the Lord sending the angel for a specific message, such as Mary's visit when she became pregnant. There are no accounts in Scripture of someone calling up an angel, whether by prayer or by another method.

Jesus made clear we have direct access to the Father, and his own instructions on how to pray directed us to pray to "Our Father". Not an angel, not another believer, not even to Jesus but to the Father. I find this significant, especially in the balance of everything else we have in Scripture.

I understand that the Roman Catholic tradition is long on this practice. I contend that this is an error on the evidence in Scripture and Christ's own example. I understand you disagree.

This thread was to discuss the topic, and please remember that nothing said here will change any official doctrine.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
curtpenn
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Oldbear83 said:

curtpenn said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

Indeed? Explain please.


No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.


The rich man, even in hell, is still all about himself. Abraham tells him why he's there, and he's still too stupid and selfish to repent. Instead, he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to intercede on his brothers, who are probably *******s as well, behalf.

So, instead of cracking stupid jokes about cell phones, perhaps you can offer something of substance to this discussion.

I have, actually. You, whether you realize it or not, are doing just what you falsely accuse me of doing.

I get it that you don't like the idea that praying to a dead human might be a bad thing. I get it that you will ignore any explanation that shows that intercessory prayer by someone alive that you know is nowhere near the same thing as praying to a dead person you never met, hoping to improve your standing with God by name-dropping.

I even get it that you resort to spiteful attacks to try to shut up anything that might challenge your habits. That's natural for a lot of people, but this issue is important, in part for the historical impact it had on the creation of the Protestant Reformation, and in part for the erosion of faith in Christ by reaching out to humans instead of our Lord for the things we need.


But don't you reach out to humans when you request prayer? The blindness is yours and I understand there's no help for that. You still have nothing from Holy Scripture you can point to that says I am in error.
I reach out to (a) people I personally know, and (b) can reach in actuality (meet, mail, phone, text). I do not reach out to people I have never met, or who cannot be reached.

You keep accusing me of "blindness" when I have explained this point several times already. I try to be courteous despite the insults hurled by you and Goldmind, and I try to stick to the point, which is that there is no Scriptural basis for praying to someone not on earth. And yes, that is more than 'silence'.

I noted, for example, that when the rich man (in the parable of Lazarus the beggar) asked Abraham to contact his brothers, Abraham told him they had Scripture.

There are very few instances in Scripture of people speaking with Angels, and when that happens it is always either judgment from the Lord (such as 'Mene Mene ...) or the Lord sending the angel for a specific message, such as Mary's visit when she became pregnant. There are no accounts in Scripture of someone calling up an angel, whether by prayer or by another method.

Jesus made clear we have direct access to the Father, and his own instructions on how to pray directed us to pray to "Our Father". Not an angel, not another believer, not even to Jesus but to the Father. I find this significant, especially in the balance of everything else we have in Scripture.

I understand that the Roman Catholic tradition is long on this practice. I contend that this is an error on the evidence in Scripture and Christ's own example. I understand you disagree.

This thread was to discuss the topic, and please remember that nothing said here will change any official doctrine.
I wasn't aware that Baptists have an "official doctrine". The concept of the Priesthood of the Believer teaches that all are priests with direct access to God and possess soul competency. From this basis, all are able to interpret scripture for themselves. Quite a lot of tension in the living out of that.
Canon
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curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?

curtpenn
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Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...
All reports of prayer in scripture were said directly to God. Again, I appreciate you providing the Catholic perspective, but I just don't find silence as persuasive support for the practice.
So, when you pray do you only go into your room and close the door as per Matthew 6:5-8? If not, why not?
I am not sure of the relevance of this one. Typically I pray alone, yes, when I roll out of bed each morning. Does that mean praying publicly is wrong? No, there are examples of public prayer in scripture. Matt. 6:5-8 was admonishing those who pray in public for show.
So you're saying there's room for interpretation?
curtpenn
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Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.
LIB,MR BEARS
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Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
Mothra
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GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...
All reports of prayer in scripture were said directly to God. Again, I appreciate you providing the Catholic perspective, but I just don't find silence as persuasive support for the practice.


I quoted you several examples from scripture you clearly chose to ignore.

How did I ignore them? I agree with you that Saints are still alive today. I disagree that any of the verses you quoted in any way support the practice of asking for their intercession or praying to them. Not a single one of the verses you quoted says such.
Mothra
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curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...
All reports of prayer in scripture were said directly to God. Again, I appreciate you providing the Catholic perspective, but I just don't find silence as persuasive support for the practice.
So, when you pray do you only go into your room and close the door as per Matthew 6:5-8? If not, why not?
I am not sure of the relevance of this one. Typically I pray alone, yes, when I roll out of bed each morning. Does that mean praying publicly is wrong? No, there are examples of public prayer in scripture. Matt. 6:5-8 was admonishing those who pray in public for show.
So you're saying there's room for interpretation?
Of course. There is room for interpretation on a lot of things as long as scripture reasonably supports the interpretation.
D. C. Bear
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curtpenn said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

Indeed? Explain please.


No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.


The rich man, even in hell, is still all about himself. Abraham tells him why he's there, and he's still too stupid and selfish to repent. Instead, he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to intercede on his brothers, who are probably *******s as well, behalf.

So, instead of cracking stupid jokes about cell phones, perhaps you can offer something of substance to this discussion.

I have, actually. You, whether you realize it or not, are doing just what you falsely accuse me of doing.

I get it that you don't like the idea that praying to a dead human might be a bad thing. I get it that you will ignore any explanation that shows that intercessory prayer by someone alive that you know is nowhere near the same thing as praying to a dead person you never met, hoping to improve your standing with God by name-dropping.

I even get it that you resort to spiteful attacks to try to shut up anything that might challenge your habits. That's natural for a lot of people, but this issue is important, in part for the historical impact it had on the creation of the Protestant Reformation, and in part for the erosion of faith in Christ by reaching out to humans instead of our Lord for the things we need.


But don't you reach out to humans when you request prayer? The blindness is yours and I understand there's no help for that. You still have nothing from Holy Scripture you can point to that says I am in error.


I can point to things in scripture that would tend to indicate you are in error, but I do not think that would change your mind and I am not particularly interested in changing your mind.
LIB,MR BEARS
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A quick reset

Does the RC church pray TO Mary and the saints or does the RC church ask Mary and the saints for intercessory pray? If it is asking for intercessory pray, is there any scripture that supports Mary or the saints hearing our request for intercessory prayer?

I don't think anyone has said anything against intercessory prayer.
Canon
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curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.


Entreating disembodied supernatural entities to provide help on your behalf is a prayer. Asking your neighbor to also pray for you is not a prayer. This is not word play. This is based on biblical teachings. But then, there's also issues of graven images in the Catholic Church as well.

The Orthodox Church is far worse about graven images though, giving kisses to the icons and treating God like a lucky horseshoe.
curtpenn
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D. C. Bear said:

curtpenn said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

GoldMind said:

Oldbear83 said:

Indeed? Explain please.


No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.


The rich man, even in hell, is still all about himself. Abraham tells him why he's there, and he's still too stupid and selfish to repent. Instead, he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to intercede on his brothers, who are probably *******s as well, behalf.

So, instead of cracking stupid jokes about cell phones, perhaps you can offer something of substance to this discussion.

I have, actually. You, whether you realize it or not, are doing just what you falsely accuse me of doing.

I get it that you don't like the idea that praying to a dead human might be a bad thing. I get it that you will ignore any explanation that shows that intercessory prayer by someone alive that you know is nowhere near the same thing as praying to a dead person you never met, hoping to improve your standing with God by name-dropping.

I even get it that you resort to spiteful attacks to try to shut up anything that might challenge your habits. That's natural for a lot of people, but this issue is important, in part for the historical impact it had on the creation of the Protestant Reformation, and in part for the erosion of faith in Christ by reaching out to humans instead of our Lord for the things we need.


But don't you reach out to humans when you request prayer? The blindness is yours and I understand there's no help for that. You still have nothing from Holy Scripture you can point to that says I am in error.


I can point to things in scripture that would tend to indicate you are in error, but I do not think that would change your mind and I am not particularly interested in changing your mind.
Adiaphora as far as I'm concerned. Not looking to change anyone's mind. Content to express my own views and try to be as reasoned as possible. Just like to be sure both parties are avoiding any logical fallacies. As I've mentioned here and elsewhere, there's a reason I'm neither Roman Catholic nor Southern Baptist. Blessings for your journey.
curtpenn
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.


Entreating disembodied supernatural entities to provide help on your behalf is a prayer. Asking your neighbor to also pray for you is not a prayer. This is not word play. This is based on biblical teachings. But then, there's also issues of graven images in the Catholic Church as well.
I'm not Roman Catholic. Had the privilege for many years as a Lay Minister of presiding at Evening Prayer once per month in our parish. One of our chapels contains a columbarium, small altar, candles, an image of the Blessed Virgin, and prie-dieu and is screened off from the nave. My practice was was to arrive about 15 minutes early, light a candle, and to kneel to offer up my private devotions. I've seldom felt closer to God than when in those moments. I could have remained ignorant of these things and still been saved, but I find this a better path for me.

I disagree with your assertion re the definition of prayer. You have no proof, just assertion.
curtpenn
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

A quick reset

Does the RC church pray TO Mary and the saints or does the RC church ask Mary and the saints for intercessory pray? If it is asking for intercessory pray, is there any scripture that supports Mary or the saints hearing our request for intercessory prayer?

I don't think anyone has said anything against intercessory prayer.
Not Roman Catholic, but somewhat familiar with their catechism and the concept of the Magisterium. You should look to their catechism for official teachings:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
Sam Lowry
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
I think lil's point was there's no scriptural support for that position.
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Thanks for the explanation.

My personal view is that Christ washes us and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or to even contribute to our saving other than repent and surrender. The saving works are all His. My filthy rags are of no benefit in this.
Canon
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curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.


Entreating disembodied supernatural entities to provide help on your behalf is a prayer. Asking your neighbor to also pray for you is not a prayer. This is not word play. This is based on biblical teachings. But then, there's also issues of graven images in the Catholic Church as well.
I'm not Roman Catholic. Had the privilege for many years as a Lay Minister of presiding at Evening Prayer once per month in our parish. One of our chapels contains a columbarium, small altar, candles, an image of the Blessed Virgin, and prie-dieu and is screened off from the nave. My practice was was to arrive about 15 minutes early, light a candle, and to kneel to offer up my private devotions. I've seldom felt closer to God than when in those moments. I could have remained ignorant of these things and still been saved, but I find this a better path for me.

I disagree with your assertion re the definition of prayer. You have no proof, just assertion.


Feel free to disagree, but you'd be wrong. Catholicism engages in ancestor worship just like many other pagan religions. It's likely it started as a way to let pagan cultures continue to worship old gods after 'conversion', but it's no less anti Christian for the original intent. To see a short list of ancestor worshiping religions, see below:

https://www.joincake.com/blog/ancestor-worship/

Prayer is a very clear act and Catholics clearly pray to saints. Shrines are very clearly focal points for worship and Catholics very clearly worship saints ...some more than others. Graven images are graven images regardless of whom they represent. God wants us to worship Him and what He knows Himself to be, rather than what we depict.

Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Thanks for the explanation.

My personal view is that Christ washes us and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or to even contribute to our saving other than repent and surrender. The saving works are all His. My filthy rags are of no benefit in this.
Amen. And there's literally dozens of verses which support this view. Paul himself holds it.
curtpenn
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.


Entreating disembodied supernatural entities to provide help on your behalf is a prayer. Asking your neighbor to also pray for you is not a prayer. This is not word play. This is based on biblical teachings. But then, there's also issues of graven images in the Catholic Church as well.
I'm not Roman Catholic. Had the privilege for many years as a Lay Minister of presiding at Evening Prayer once per month in our parish. One of our chapels contains a columbarium, small altar, candles, an image of the Blessed Virgin, and prie-dieu and is screened off from the nave. My practice was was to arrive about 15 minutes early, light a candle, and to kneel to offer up my private devotions. I've seldom felt closer to God than when in those moments. I could have remained ignorant of these things and still been saved, but I find this a better path for me.

I disagree with your assertion re the definition of prayer. You have no proof, just assertion.


Feel free to disagree, but you'd be wrong. Catholicism engages in ancestor worship just like many other pagan religions. It's likely it started as a way to let pagan cultures continue to worship old gods after 'conversion', but it's no less anti Christian for the original intent. To see a short list of ancestor worshiping religions, see below:

https://www.joincake.com/blog/ancestor-worship/

Prayer is a very clear act and Catholics clearly pray to saints. Shrines are very clearly focal points for worship and Catholics very clearly worship saints ...some more than others. Graven images are graven images regardless of whom they represent. God wants us to worship Him and what He knows Himself to be, rather than what we depict.


More assertion. No proof. Thanks for playing. Self-righteous neo-puritans applaud your position.
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Thanks for the explanation.

My personal view is that Christ washes us and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or to even contribute to our saving other than repent and surrender. The saving works are all His. My filthy rags are of no benefit in this.
You're welcome. We also believe the works are all his, but in a somewhat different way. It's only through his grace that our works are possible; yet they are necessary.
curtpenn
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Thanks for the explanation.

My personal view is that Christ washes us and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or to even contribute to our saving other than repent and surrender. The saving works are all His. My filthy rags are of no benefit in this.
Amen. And there's literally dozens of verses which support this view. Paul himself holds it.
Always puzzled me exactly how we are saved. You say we can do nothing to save ourselves, yet say we must repent and surrender. Are repenting and surrendering doing nothing? I can remember as a youngster hearing my Sunday School teaching/fine Baptist Deacon grandfather arguing with his backslidden Methodist brother about free will and predestination. I wrestled with that for decades personally, until I gave it all up and embraced the mystery. Part of the reason I've ended up Anglican; that, and the music is better - ha.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Thanks for the explanation.

My personal view is that Christ washes us and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or to even contribute to our saving other than repent and surrender. The saving works are all His. My filthy rags are of no benefit in this.
Amen. And there's literally dozens of verses which support this view. Paul himself holds it.
Always puzzled me exactly how we are saved. You say we can do nothing to save ourselves, yet say we must repent and surrender. Are repenting and surrendering doing nothing? I can remember as a youngster hearing my Sunday School teaching/fine Baptist Deacon grandfather arguing with his backslidden Methodist brother about free will and predestination. I wrestled with that for decades personally, until I gave it all up and embraced the mystery. Part of the reason I've ended up Anglican; that, and the music is better - ha.
I hear you on this one. It's difficult to say - is even the choice to repent and surrender an act of our own free will or something that He caused?

I am like you on this - I've given up trying to answer it.
Canon
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curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.


Entreating disembodied supernatural entities to provide help on your behalf is a prayer. Asking your neighbor to also pray for you is not a prayer. This is not word play. This is based on biblical teachings. But then, there's also issues of graven images in the Catholic Church as well.
I'm not Roman Catholic. Had the privilege for many years as a Lay Minister of presiding at Evening Prayer once per month in our parish. One of our chapels contains a columbarium, small altar, candles, an image of the Blessed Virgin, and prie-dieu and is screened off from the nave. My practice was was to arrive about 15 minutes early, light a candle, and to kneel to offer up my private devotions. I've seldom felt closer to God than when in those moments. I could have remained ignorant of these things and still been saved, but I find this a better path for me.

I disagree with your assertion re the definition of prayer. You have no proof, just assertion.


Feel free to disagree, but you'd be wrong. Catholicism engages in ancestor worship just like many other pagan religions. It's likely it started as a way to let pagan cultures continue to worship old gods after 'conversion', but it's no less anti Christian for the original intent. To see a short list of ancestor worshiping religions, see below:

https://www.joincake.com/blog/ancestor-worship/

Prayer is a very clear act and Catholics clearly pray to saints. Shrines are very clearly focal points for worship and Catholics very clearly worship saints ...some more than others. Graven images are graven images regardless of whom they represent. God wants us to worship Him and what He knows Himself to be, rather than what we depict.


More assertion. No proof. Thanks for playing. Self-righteous neo-puritans applaud your position.


A self evident fact is self evident. Praying at a shrine with a graven image is prayer to and worship of that graven image. You can say it's really eating a bologna sandwich with liver wurst if you'd like, but it's self evidently prayer and worship of a graven image.

This is not Puritanism. I don't care what you do. I do care when you try and convince others of what isn't true.
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Thanks for the explanation.

My personal view is that Christ washes us and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or to even contribute to our saving other than repent and surrender. The saving works are all His. My filthy rags are of no benefit in this.
You're welcome. We also believe the works are all his, but in a somewhat different way. It's only through his grace that our works are possible; yet they are necessary.
While it is true that we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do (see Ephesians 2:10), it is not the works that save us. As Paul says in the preceding verses:

Ephesians 2:8: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Thanks for the explanation.

My personal view is that Christ washes us and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or to even contribute to our saving other than repent and surrender. The saving works are all His. My filthy rags are of no benefit in this.
You're welcome. We also believe the works are all his, but in a somewhat different way. It's only through his grace that our works are possible; yet they are necessary.
Is the thief on the cross having a contrite heart a work or penance? Is our humbling ourselves to His saving work of death on the cross, penance? Is the prodigal's surrender to his Father penance?
 
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