Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

---

I just don't get the idea anywhere is scripture that Mary would be listening, much less taking my requests to God.

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

---

I just don't get the idea anywhere is scripture that Mary would be listening, much less taking my requests to God.

---

In my first 40 years as a Baptist, I didn't either.

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

---

I just don't get the idea anywhere is scripture that Mary would be listening, much less taking my requests to God.

---

In my first 40 years as a Baptist, I didn't either.

---

So, where in scripture did you find the idea?

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

---

1. No, asking someone you know - and who is alive - to pray for is absolutely not the same thing as praying to them.

2. They were alive in Heaven, not Earth. One reason Jesus did not respond to the disciples' suggestion to build them shelters - they do not need them as they are in another place. And this in no way changes the fact that no one was praying to Elijah or Moses.

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

Or, as actually practiced, earning certain clergy a lot of additional penance for stealing money that way.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

Or, as actually practiced, earning certain clergy a lot of additional penance for stealing money that way.

---

I've certainly never seen it practiced that way, and indulgences are still common practice.

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

God let's you buy your way out with cash? Is your pope Robert Tilton?

Seriously, that is antithetical to Christianity.

---

No, you don't buy indulgences. Or donate bricks.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

Or, as actually practiced, earning certain clergy a lot of additional penance for stealing money that way.

---

I've certainly never seen it practiced that way, and indulgences are still common practice.

---

Pretty effective way to piss off God, I'd say.

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

---

I just don't get the idea anywhere is scripture that Mary would be listening, much less taking my requests to God.

---

In my first 40 years as a Baptist, I didn't either.

---

So, where in scripture did you find the idea?

---

It's always a matter of inference and interpretation when it comes to scripture, isn't it? We cannot escape this. For every Pope there's a Paige Patterson telling us what something means. I subscribe to the Anglican formulary of the primacy of scripture, tradition/teaching, and reason in combination with the Vincentian Canon - that which has been believed in all times and places. You cannot "prove" from scripture that I am wrong, yet insist that 2,000 years of Christian faith and practice are wrong.

This is simple; all believers are eternally alive and able to intercede. That you wish to distinguish somehow in stages of existence is speculative.

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

---

I just don't get the idea anywhere is scripture that Mary would be listening, much less taking my requests to God.

---

In my first 40 years as a Baptist, I didn't either.

---

So, where in scripture did you find the idea?

---

It's always a matter of inference and interpretation when it comes to scripture, isn't it? We cannot escape this. For every Pope there's a Paige Patterson telling us what something means. I subscribe to the Anglican formulary of the primacy of scripture, tradition/teaching, and reason in combination with the Vincentian Canon - that which has been believed in all times and places. You cannot "prove" from scripture that I am wrong, yet insist that 2,000 years of Christian faith and practice are wrong.

This is simple; all believers are eternally alive and able to intercede. That you wish to distinguish somehow in stages of existence is speculative.

---

I am not trying to "prove" anything, but I still have never read anything in scripture that would make me think that I should ask Mary to intercede on my behalf.

As for Paige Patterson, I never considered him to actually be a Baptist and was pretty sure that if he said something the opposite was probably better theology.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

---

I just don't get the idea anywhere is scripture that Mary would be listening, much less taking my requests to God.

---

In my first 40 years as a Baptist, I didn't either.

---

So, where in scripture did you find the idea?

---

It's always a matter of inference and interpretation when it comes to scripture, isn't it? We cannot escape this. For every Pope there's a Paige Patterson telling us what something means. I subscribe to the Anglican formulary of the primacy of scripture, tradition/teaching, and reason in combination with the Vincentian Canon - that which has been believed in all times and places. You cannot "prove" from scripture that I am wrong, yet insist that 2,000 years of Christian faith and practice are wrong.

This is simple; all believers are eternally alive and able to intercede. That you wish to distinguish somehow in stages of existence is speculative.

---

I am not trying to "prove" anything, but I still have never read anything in scripture that would make me think that I should ask Mary to intercede on my behalf.

As for Paige Patterson, I never considered him to actually be a Baptist and was pretty sure that if he said something the opposite was probably better theology.

---

We were actually members at First Baptist when Patterson was on the staff there. I believe it was my reaction to his brand of fundamentalism (which I thought was antithetical to Baptist practice) that started me down the road that eventually led me to the Canterbury Trail. That, and I can't abide so-called contemporary Christian music.

These lay out some good points:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-supports-praying-to-the-saints

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/4-biblical-proofs-for-prayers-to-saints-and-for-the-dead

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

And someone who spends their energy praying to another human instead of depending on direct access to the Father for guidance is likely to build poorly.

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Praying to Mary.



That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

---

I just don't get the idea anywhere is scripture that Mary would be listening, much less taking my requests to God.

---

In my first 40 years as a Baptist, I didn't either.

---

So, where in scripture did you find the idea?

---

It's always a matter of inference and interpretation when it comes to scripture, isn't it? We cannot escape this. For every Pope there's a Paige Patterson telling us what something means. I subscribe to the Anglican formulary of the primacy of scripture, tradition/teaching, and reason in combination with the Vincentian Canon - that which has been believed in all times and places. You cannot "prove" from scripture that I am wrong, yet insist that 2,000 years of Christian faith and practice are wrong.

This is simple; all believers are eternally alive and able to intercede. That you wish to distinguish somehow in stages of existence is speculative.

---

So why don't you just go to Jesus (or Holy Spirit) every time when you pray since He is our High Priest?
Hebrews 4:14-16
New International Version
Jesus the Great High Priest

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[a] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areyet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Seems like He (or Holy Spirit) is the one in Heaven who you need to pray to or ask to intercede on our/your behalf.

jdrs said:

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curtpenn said:

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D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Praying to Mary.



That's the violation.

---

Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

---

So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

---

You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

---

1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

---

To your first point, you use "pray to" synonymously with "ask for prayer". Do you not then pray to other believers when you ask for their prayers?

To your second point, they were obviously alive in a very real way just as all believers are right now.

---

I just don't get the idea anywhere is scripture that Mary would be listening, much less taking my requests to God.

---

In my first 40 years as a Baptist, I didn't either.

---

So, where in scripture did you find the idea?

---

It's always a matter of inference and interpretation when it comes to scripture, isn't it? We cannot escape this. For every Pope there's a Paige Patterson telling us what something means. I subscribe to the Anglican formulary of the primacy of scripture, tradition/teaching, and reason in combination with the Vincentian Canon - that which has been believed in all times and places. You cannot "prove" from scripture that I am wrong, yet insist that 2,000 years of Christian faith and practice are wrong.

This is simple; all believers are eternally alive and able to intercede. That you wish to distinguish somehow in stages of existence is speculative.

---

So why don't you just go to Jesus (or Holy Spirit) every time when you pray since He is our High Priest?
Hebrews 4:14-16
New International Version
Jesus the Great High Priest

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[a] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areyet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Seems like He (or Holy Spirit) is the one in Heaven who you need to pray to or ask to intercede on our/your behalf.

---

Absolutely do, but I need all the help I can get. Again, all saints are alive in the Body of Christ and are part of the Communion of Saints. No need to restrict one's vision or scope.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

And someone who spends their energy praying to another human instead of depending on direct access to the Father for guidance is likely to build poorly.

---

Are your personal requests for intercessory prayer a waste of time?

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

And someone who spends their energy praying to another human instead of depending on direct access to the Father for guidance is likely to build poorly.

---

Are your personal requests for intercessory prayer a waste of time?

---

I don't pray to the dead, so no.

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

And someone who spends their energy praying to another human instead of depending on direct access to the Father for guidance is likely to build poorly.

---

Are your personal requests for intercessory prayer a waste of time?

---

I don't pray to the dead, so no.

---

Me, either.

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

And someone who spends their energy praying to another human instead of depending on direct access to the Father for guidance is likely to build poorly.

---

Are your personal requests for intercessory prayer a waste of time?

---

I don't pray to the dead, so no.

---

Me, either.

---

Then you don't pray to Mary?

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

And someone who spends their energy praying to another human instead of depending on direct access to the Father for guidance is likely to build poorly.

---

Are your personal requests for intercessory prayer a waste of time?

---

I don't pray to the dead, so no.

---

Me, either.

---

Then you don't pray to Mary?

---

I do. And a number of other saints alive in Christ including my grandmother and late mother-in-law as well as some favorites such as Saints Joseph, Michael, George, and Joan.

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

And someone who spends their energy praying to another human instead of depending on direct access to the Father for guidance is likely to build poorly.

---

Are your personal requests for intercessory prayer a waste of time?

---

I don't pray to the dead, so no.

---

Me, either.

---

Then you don't pray to Mary?

---

I do. And a number of other saints alive in Christ including my grandmother and late mother-in-law as well as some favorites such as Saints Joseph, Michael, George, and Joan.

---

So, not alive in any sense we can comprehend in our earthly lives.

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

And someone who spends their energy praying to another human instead of depending on direct access to the Father for guidance is likely to build poorly.

---

Are your personal requests for intercessory prayer a waste of time?

---

I don't pray to the dead, so no.

---

Me, either.

---

Then you don't pray to Mary?

---

I do. And a number of other saints alive in Christ including my grandmother and late mother-in-law as well as some favorites such as Saints Joseph, Michael, George, and Joan.

---

So, not alive in any sense we can comprehend in our earthly lives.

---

I have no problem comprehending it.

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

BearTruth13 said:

---

Also the whole scandal in the early 2000s really showed a dark side to the Catholic structure.

---

no it didn't. It showed the dark side of human nature.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BearTruth13 said:

---

Also the whole scandal in the early 2000s really showed a dark side to the Catholic structure.

---

no it didn't. It showed the dark side of human nature.

---

Yes, and really the dark side of all human structures where the organization and serving the organization becomes more important than the people it is supposed to serve.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BearTruth13 said:

---

Also the whole scandal in the early 2000s really showed a dark side to the Catholic structure.

---

no it didn't. It showed the dark side of human nature.

---

Yes, and really the dark side of all human structures where the organization and serving the organization becomes more important than the people it is supposed to serve.

---

The former youth director at the church I grew up in who had become a pastor of his own SBC church had an affair with an underage girl he was counciling. After a couple years of coverup and denials, from both him and church leadership, he finally resigned.

Sin doesn't have a denomination nor does coverup

---

The "pastors" who fly around in private jets and live in $25mil mansions are my favorites though.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

BearTruth13 said:

---

Also the whole scandal in the early 2000s really showed a dark side to the Catholic structure.

---

no it didn't. It showed the dark side of human nature.

---

Yes, and really the dark side of all human structures where the organization and serving the organization becomes more important than the people it is supposed to serve.

---

The former youth director at the church I grew up in who had become a pastor of his own SBC church had an affair with an underage girl he was counciling. After a couple years of coverup and denials, from both him and church leadership, he finally resigned.

Sin doesn't have a denomination nor does coverup

---

Per the Vatican itself, 1.5% to 5% of Catholic clergy were sexually abusing minors over the past 50 years. Which the church knew about for decades and covered up nearly every case. That was not a one off action or church. It was an international suppression of criminality. It is a sin issue. But the Catholic Church is set up in such a way that reduces transparency. That combined with sin is dangerous.