curtpenn said:

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Mothra said:

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trey3216 said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart.

---

Bingo. Can't tell you how many Presbyterian services I have sat through the years where the pastor reads a prayer from a script to the congregation, and we have our little script and are supposed to respond to it. None of it comes from the heart.

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Isn't that mainly a statement about the spiritual state of the congregants rather than the style of worship?

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Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

---

There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

---

There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

---

Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

---

There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

---

Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

---

I interpreted his question and its tone as sincere.

You tone seems defensive and aggressive.

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

---

There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

---

Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

---

There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

---

Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

---

I interpreted his question and its tone as sincere.

You tone seems defensive and aggressive.

---

I have no more a sword in my hand than he does. It's not as if he's been saying flattering things about Baptists lack of liturgy:

"I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality."

"I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church."

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

---

There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

---

Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

---

My point is I stated this to learn something, u mad or what?

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

---

There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

---

Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

---

I interpreted his question and its tone as sincere.

You tone seems defensive and aggressive.

---

I have no more a sword in my hand than he does. It's not as if he's been saying flattering things about Baptists lack of liturgy:

"I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality."

"I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church."

---

I've attended several baptist church services and they still feel strange to me.

The baptist church as it stands today is far removed from the old-world forms of Christian worship, I don't see how that's debatable.

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

---

There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

---

Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

---

I interpreted his question and its tone as sincere.

You tone seems defensive and aggressive.

---

I have no more a sword in my hand than he does. It's not as if he's been saying flattering things about Baptists lack of liturgy:

"I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality."

"I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church."

---

I've attended several baptist church services and they still feel strange to me.

The baptist church as it stands today is far removed from the old-world forms of Christian worship, I don't see how that's debatable.

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

---

For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

---

There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

---

Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

---

I interpreted his question and its tone as sincere.

You tone seems defensive and aggressive.

---

I have no more a sword in my hand than he does. It's not as if he's been saying flattering things about Baptists lack of liturgy:

"I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality."

"I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church."

---

I've attended several baptist church services and they still feel strange to me.

The baptist church as it stands today is far removed from the old-world forms of Christian worship, I don't see how that's debatable.

---

I couldn't tell you. I am not Baptist. I just know that liturgy was not a part of the early church in Acts. Like I said, to each his own.

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

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So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

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There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

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The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

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We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

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For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

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There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

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Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

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I interpreted his question and its tone as sincere.

You tone seems defensive and aggressive.

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I have no more a sword in my hand than he does. It's not as if he's been saying flattering things about Baptists lack of liturgy:

"I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality."

"I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church."

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I've attended several baptist church services and they still feel strange to me.

The baptist church as it stands today is far removed from the old-world forms of Christian worship, I don't see how that's debatable.

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I couldn't tell you. I am not Baptist. I just know that liturgy was not a part of the early church in Acts. Like I said, to each his own.

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I guess I just can't accept that Paul and Luke, the authors of Acts would had dropped any manner of liturgical worship, you know, Judaism that they and Christ along with all other apostles would have been adherents to.

Do you think it's just a coincidence that the other 2 middle eastern abrahamic religions also have organized worship structures as well?


I've never taken the position that the Baptists were "wrong" or anything like that.

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C. Jordan said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Aliceinbubbleland said:

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GoldMind said:

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There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?

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There is much about the Baptist demonization that they don't understand except looking over the shoulder.

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Our Wednesday golf group used to have a Baptist in it. When a second one joined, the first one quit. I never knew why.

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Don't know about this.

I do know that you should always take at least 2 Baptists fishing with you.

If you take one, he'll drink all your beer!

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trey3216 said:

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curtpenn said:

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Mothra said:

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trey3216 said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

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I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart.

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Bingo. Can't tell you how many Presbyterian services I have sat through the years where the pastor reads a prayer from a script to the congregation, and we have our little script and are supposed to respond to it. None of it comes from the heart.

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Isn't that mainly a statement about the spiritual state of the congregants rather than the style of worship?

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it is. I know you're not directly quoting me, but my argument is about the perception and reasoning behind it, not necessarily promoting or condemning one or the other. I find value in both varieties, and come from a background with heavy Catholic and Baptist traditions. I grew up going to both.

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Johnny Bear said:

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I believe much of this simply has to do with different Christian denominational traditions and viewpoints on Communion / Eucharist/ Lord's Supper, etc. I grew up a Southern Baptist, but have for the last 21+ years been a member of a UMC church that recently converted to the Free Methodist Denomination. My wife grew up Catholic and my older sister converted to Catholicism 50 years ago - so I've had a good deal of exposure to all 3 of those denominations.

Our pastor once talked about the different major viewpoints/beliefs on Communion/Eucharist/Lord's Supper during a sermon and he described it this way:

Catholics - Have great reverence for the Sacraments, especially including the Eucharist, and believe that during the Communion act the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ respectively and it is a part of the standard Mass whenever the Mass occurs.

Methodists and some of the other Protestant denominations don't believe the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ during Communion, but do believe the believing Christian taking part in Communion is truly at that moment "communing with God (or the Holy Spirit)". Our church does it monthly.

Baptists and some of the other Protestant denominations see Communion or The Lord's Supper as a needed symbolic act that obeys Christ's command to "do this in remberance of me" (and my sacrificial act of dying on the cross as a means of salvation to the believer). Baptist churches do it everywhere from monthly to quarterly.

And by the way, my church uses grape juice as well - not because of a belief in tee-totalism, but because of a church policy of no alcohol at any church events out of concern/ respect for any members that may have struggled previously with alcohol issues or might be currently struggling.

Personally, I think this is one of those things where there's no one "correct" group and everybody else is wrong - I again just think it's a difference of traditions and what the individual believer is comfortable with. I look at the legitimate Christian denominations and their differences kind of like flavors of ice cream - while chocolate, vanilla, strawberry, etc. all taste different - in the end it's still all ice cream.

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Mothra said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

The Bible supports many of those things between believers, not in a corporate setting and certainly not as a ritual where someone is merely going through the motions. But if you have some scripture you believe says differently, what is it?

---

We simply don't see it as "going through the motions"
These are things we do each Sunday that hold significant meaning to us, it's part of affirmation. In school, we said the pledge of allegiance every day, it's meaning isn't lost on most folks, I don't think.

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For the record, I do not doubt that the liturgy has meaning to believers. As I said above, I feel the same way about the Apostle's Creed and taking communion. It is a good reminder of our identity as Christians and to what we are called. It's why I also take joy at singing traditional hymns. They are part of our church history, and have a special meaning. While I do think some denominations have added liturgy to what is required of us as Christians (see Catholicism in particular), for the most part I am of the belief that to each his own as long as it comports with scripture.

Mainly, I was responding to the premise of your thread, which seemed to suggest that Baptists or those churches who aren't as liturgical aren't following scripture. There is no scriptural support for that position.

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There's no scriptural support for the yearly celebration of Christmas or Easter.

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Agreed. What's your point (if you have one)?

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I interpreted his question and its tone as sincere.

You tone seems defensive and aggressive.

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I have no more a sword in my hand than he does. It's not as if he's been saying flattering things about Baptists lack of liturgy:

"I'd also love to hear why there's no liturgy. It's like stepping into an alternate reality."

"I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church."

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GoldMind said:

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There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

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Mothra said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

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Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

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