Help me understand

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LIB,MR BEARS
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curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Thanks for the explanation.

My personal view is that Christ washes us and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or to even contribute to our saving other than repent and surrender. The saving works are all His. My filthy rags are of no benefit in this.
Amen. And there's literally dozens of verses which support this view. Paul himself holds it.
Always puzzled me exactly how we are saved. You say we can do nothing to save ourselves, yet say we must repent and surrender. Are repenting and surrendering doing nothing? I can remember as a youngster hearing my Sunday School teaching/fine Baptist Deacon grandfather arguing with his backslidden Methodist brother about free will and predestination. I wrestled with that for decades personally, until I gave it all up and embraced the mystery. Part of the reason I've ended up Anglican; that, and the music is better - ha.
I'm pretty solid Baptist and I think mystery is right... and the music thing too.
curtpenn
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Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.


Entreating disembodied supernatural entities to provide help on your behalf is a prayer. Asking your neighbor to also pray for you is not a prayer. This is not word play. This is based on biblical teachings. But then, there's also issues of graven images in the Catholic Church as well.
I'm not Roman Catholic. Had the privilege for many years as a Lay Minister of presiding at Evening Prayer once per month in our parish. One of our chapels contains a columbarium, small altar, candles, an image of the Blessed Virgin, and prie-dieu and is screened off from the nave. My practice was was to arrive about 15 minutes early, light a candle, and to kneel to offer up my private devotions. I've seldom felt closer to God than when in those moments. I could have remained ignorant of these things and still been saved, but I find this a better path for me.

I disagree with your assertion re the definition of prayer. You have no proof, just assertion.


Feel free to disagree, but you'd be wrong. Catholicism engages in ancestor worship just like many other pagan religions. It's likely it started as a way to let pagan cultures continue to worship old gods after 'conversion', but it's no less anti Christian for the original intent. To see a short list of ancestor worshiping religions, see below:

https://www.joincake.com/blog/ancestor-worship/

Prayer is a very clear act and Catholics clearly pray to saints. Shrines are very clearly focal points for worship and Catholics very clearly worship saints ...some more than others. Graven images are graven images regardless of whom they represent. God wants us to worship Him and what He knows Himself to be, rather than what we depict.


More assertion. No proof. Thanks for playing. Self-righteous neo-puritans applaud your position.


A self evident fact is self evident. Praying at a shrine with a graven image is prayer to and worship of that graven image. You can say it's really eating a bologna sandwich with liver wurst if you'd like, but it's self evidently prayer and worship of a graven image.

This is not Puritanism. I don't care what you do. I do care when you try and convince others of what isn't true.
"Praying at a shrine with a graven image is prayer to and worship of that graven image." This is simple assertion/opinion and demonstrates a certain narrowness of thought. Paige Patterson and assorted ayatollahs would be proud. Is praying in a church with any visual depiction of Jesus Christ worshipping a graven image?
Sam Lowry
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Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
Reducing the penance endured after death.
What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.
"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?
I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.


Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If I am seen as without sin, if I am seen as having Christ righteousness, why do I need penance?

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed it white as snow.
It's part of that process of washing. In the Catholic view, you're not only seen as having righteousness. You actually become righteous through the power of sanctifying grace, including penance and all the sacraments.
Thanks for the explanation.

My personal view is that Christ washes us and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or to even contribute to our saving other than repent and surrender. The saving works are all His. My filthy rags are of no benefit in this.
You're welcome. We also believe the works are all his, but in a somewhat different way. It's only through his grace that our works are possible; yet they are necessary.
While it is true that we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do (see Ephesians 2:10), it is not the works that save us. As Paul says in the preceding verses:

Ephesians 2:8: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


But see Romans 2:6-7, 2:13, 6:20-23, Ephesians 5:4-7, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Philippians 2:12, James 1:4, Hebrews 10:26-27.
Mothra
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I believe a close reading of the referenced verses will show that none of them contradict what Paul said in Ephesians.

Romans 2:6-7 talks about how God will repay each person according to what they have done on earth. Indeed, we are storing up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. Paul was not stating, much less suggesting in this verse, that one must work to get one to Heaven. Indeed, it is a free gift. See Romans 6:23.

Romans 2:13 needs context, which can be found in the preceding verses, in which Paul is telling talking about Jews at the law. He is responding to the belief of his Jewish brethren who believed being under the law and hearing it would save them. However, Paul is saying in these verses that in order to be declared righteous in God's eyes, one must obey the law. In fact, Paul will later point out that a person living under the law would have to obey the law perfectly, in every way, in order to be declared righteous by God. Nobody was able to do that until Jesus arrived, as Paul later says in Romans

Romans 6:20-23 talks about being a slave to sin rather than slaves to God. Indeed, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." 6:23.

Ephesians 5:4-7, just like Romans 6:20-23, talks about the kind of person a Christian should be and aspire to after becoming a slave to God.

2 Cor. 5:10 is talking about the "Bema" seat of Christ the special judgment that God will hold for believers only (i.e. people already saved).

Philippians 2:12 is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. We can do an entire thread on this topic, but in short, the idea that Paul was saying we have to work toward salvation, which is how some people have interpreted this verse, is not supported by the verse itself, or Paul's other teachings in scripture. There are a number of good commentaries on this verse I would suggest looking at.

James 1:4 talks about persevering so that God can finish his work in you so that you may be mature and complete. This is the process of sanctification, not salvation, which is quite different.

Finally, Hebrews 10:26-27 is speaking to people who have heard the gospel, have come face-to-face with the claims of Christ, perhaps have been associated to some extent with His church, but strayed, which of course suggests they were not believers in the first place. Again, this is not a suggestion that salvation requires works.

Jesus said it best in John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Notice there is no mention in there anywhere that Christ required some work on the part of the Christian in order to get to Heaven. If he did, as Paul said, then it wouldn't be by grace you are saved. And thank goodness for that.


GoldMind
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Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.


Entreating disembodied supernatural entities to provide help on your behalf is a prayer. Asking your neighbor to also pray for you is not a prayer. This is not word play. This is based on biblical teachings. But then, there's also issues of graven images in the Catholic Church as well.
I'm not Roman Catholic. Had the privilege for many years as a Lay Minister of presiding at Evening Prayer once per month in our parish. One of our chapels contains a columbarium, small altar, candles, an image of the Blessed Virgin, and prie-dieu and is screened off from the nave. My practice was was to arrive about 15 minutes early, light a candle, and to kneel to offer up my private devotions. I've seldom felt closer to God than when in those moments. I could have remained ignorant of these things and still been saved, but I find this a better path for me.

I disagree with your assertion re the definition of prayer. You have no proof, just assertion.


Feel free to disagree, but you'd be wrong. Catholicism engages in ancestor worship just like many other pagan religions. It's likely it started as a way to let pagan cultures continue to worship old gods after 'conversion', but it's no less anti Christian for the original intent. To see a short list of ancestor worshiping religions, see below:

https://www.joincake.com/blog/ancestor-worship/

Prayer is a very clear act and Catholics clearly pray to saints. Shrines are very clearly focal points for worship and Catholics very clearly worship saints ...some more than others. Graven images are graven images regardless of whom they represent. God wants us to worship Him and what He knows Himself to be, rather than what we depict.




God entrusted man, if he didn't think we were good enough to believe that we were made in his image, and that images are thus the image of God, he should have chose something else.

Baal and a painting of Christ are entirely different in significance.
We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

Canon
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GoldMind said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.


Entreating disembodied supernatural entities to provide help on your behalf is a prayer. Asking your neighbor to also pray for you is not a prayer. This is not word play. This is based on biblical teachings. But then, there's also issues of graven images in the Catholic Church as well.
I'm not Roman Catholic. Had the privilege for many years as a Lay Minister of presiding at Evening Prayer once per month in our parish. One of our chapels contains a columbarium, small altar, candles, an image of the Blessed Virgin, and prie-dieu and is screened off from the nave. My practice was was to arrive about 15 minutes early, light a candle, and to kneel to offer up my private devotions. I've seldom felt closer to God than when in those moments. I could have remained ignorant of these things and still been saved, but I find this a better path for me.

I disagree with your assertion re the definition of prayer. You have no proof, just assertion.


Feel free to disagree, but you'd be wrong. Catholicism engages in ancestor worship just like many other pagan religions. It's likely it started as a way to let pagan cultures continue to worship old gods after 'conversion', but it's no less anti Christian for the original intent. To see a short list of ancestor worshiping religions, see below:

https://www.joincake.com/blog/ancestor-worship/

Prayer is a very clear act and Catholics clearly pray to saints. Shrines are very clearly focal points for worship and Catholics very clearly worship saints ...some more than others. Graven images are graven images regardless of whom they represent. God wants us to worship Him and what He knows Himself to be, rather than what we depict.




God entrusted man, if he didn't think we were good enough to believe that we were made in his image, and that images are thus the image of God, he should have chose something else.

Baal and a painting of Christ are entirely different in significance.


Man is made in God's image so it's ok to worship images of man? No. That is incorrect.

As for your second comment, read the second commandment and you are also wrong there:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Oldbear83
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I think the question of images depends on how they are used.

I admit I am worried when I see someone grasp a medal with a saint's name and image on it as they pray, as if their devotion is focused on that human rather than on the Lord. But this is no different from people who are in the sway of a charismatic preacher - a lot of people trust their pastor more than they trust the Lord. What I mean by that, is that Scripture and sound doctrine can be replaced by the minister's personal wants. Sometimes that leads to some great sins.

But there is no harm done if someone admires the courage or faith of a saint, and wears their medal to remind them of that example, or for a church to hang paintings of church leaders who built up the congregation. And many times, you can't easily tell why someone is focused on an image, and we are none of us mind readers.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
GoldMind
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Canon said:

GoldMind said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Mothra said:

Canon said:

Canon said:

Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)


Any Catholic friends care to answer these?
Indeed he did.
I'm guessing all practicing liturgical Christians recite the Lord's Prayer very often. Can you show us the bit where we are commanded to only pray that particular prayer? I assume you are aware there are variations in the doxology that appears in some manuscripts but not others? Makes one wonder...


Where in the Bible does anyone pray to an entity other than God? Is Jesus' example a script or a formulation? Regardless, can His script or formulation include an entity other than God?


Are you "praying to" your pastor or friends when you ask for intercessory prayer? You seem to insist that requesting prayer is "praying to" as far as I can tell. I'm fairly certain no amount of wordplay or semantics gets past the real issue which is different understanding of the state or status of all believers whether physically on earth or in the presence of the Lord. I assert the Communion of Saints has no temporal bounds. You claim otherwise. It isn't really about prayer at all.


Entreating disembodied supernatural entities to provide help on your behalf is a prayer. Asking your neighbor to also pray for you is not a prayer. This is not word play. This is based on biblical teachings. But then, there's also issues of graven images in the Catholic Church as well.
I'm not Roman Catholic. Had the privilege for many years as a Lay Minister of presiding at Evening Prayer once per month in our parish. One of our chapels contains a columbarium, small altar, candles, an image of the Blessed Virgin, and prie-dieu and is screened off from the nave. My practice was was to arrive about 15 minutes early, light a candle, and to kneel to offer up my private devotions. I've seldom felt closer to God than when in those moments. I could have remained ignorant of these things and still been saved, but I find this a better path for me.

I disagree with your assertion re the definition of prayer. You have no proof, just assertion.


Feel free to disagree, but you'd be wrong. Catholicism engages in ancestor worship just like many other pagan religions. It's likely it started as a way to let pagan cultures continue to worship old gods after 'conversion', but it's no less anti Christian for the original intent. To see a short list of ancestor worshiping religions, see below:

https://www.joincake.com/blog/ancestor-worship/

Prayer is a very clear act and Catholics clearly pray to saints. Shrines are very clearly focal points for worship and Catholics very clearly worship saints ...some more than others. Graven images are graven images regardless of whom they represent. God wants us to worship Him and what He knows Himself to be, rather than what we depict.




God entrusted man, if he didn't think we were good enough to believe that we were made in his image, and that images are thus the image of God, he should have chose something else.

Baal and a painting of Christ are entirely different in significance.


Man is made in God's image so it's ok to worship images of man? No. That is incorrect.

As for your second comment, read the second commandment and you are also wrong there:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


I think you're pretty hazy on a what a graven images is.


Nobody "worships" paintings or statues at our church.

And second and even more inaccurate, Paul clearly defines idolatry as the worship of created things in its cultural context, you know, the context of 1st century middle eastern and southern European culture.

Clearly, idols to which divine power is ascribed as well as in divinizing anything that is not God.

Just consider the context.
We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

Canon
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Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?
GoldMind
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Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?
Do you find the use of context narrow in some way?

If you wanna die on that hill, go head. Guess you really believe the earth is 4000 years old?

You really, truly believe that we are breaking that commandment by displaying the cross, fish, Chi-Rho or any other representation of our faith?
We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

curtpenn
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Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?
Canon
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curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.
Oldbear83
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Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.
Careful there. I have seen veterans kneel at war memorials, especially when they know one of the fallen.

I don't think anyone would claim they were 'worshipping' at those memorials.

So too, some people have strong emotional reactions to religious shrines, where important events and significant figures are commemorated.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
curtpenn
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Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.


Who gets to define "worshipping"? You? Me? Someone else?
Canon
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curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.


Who gets to define "worshipping"? You? Me? Someone else?


Objectivity. If you see a Hindu bowing and praying to an elephant god at a tiny shrine, you can't rationally think a Catholic doing the same thing to a shrine of Mary is any different. They are precisely the same activity for the same purpose. They are both antithetical to Christianity.
Oldbear83
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curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.


Who gets to define "worshipping"? You? Me? Someone else?
Sometimes its obvious, Kneeling at an altar, murmurlng prayers to the individual whose image they regard, is a pretty clear giveaway.

But if the altar is a standard church altar with only the cross behind it, it would be reasonable to consider the Lord to be the rightful object of adoration and worship.

That is, if it's not obvious, don't assume intent.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
curtpenn
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Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.


Who gets to define "worshipping"? You? Me? Someone else?


Objectivity. If you see a Hindu bowing and praying to an elephant god at a tiny shrine, you can't rationally think a Catholic doing the same thing to a shrine of Mary is any different. They are precisely the same activity for the same purpose. They are both antithetical to Christianity.


I had thought you less thick. Guess not. I don't know any Christian who worships graven images. You clearly have no understanding of iconography. No different from sacred music - just an expression in another medium and a window whereby we may be better enabled to worship He who is worthy. Who anointed you arbiter?
Canon
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curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.


Who gets to define "worshipping"? You? Me? Someone else?


Objectivity. If you see a Hindu bowing and praying to an elephant god at a tiny shrine, you can't rationally think a Catholic doing the same thing to a shrine of Mary is any different. They are precisely the same activity for the same purpose. They are both antithetical to Christianity.


I had thought you less thick. Guess not. I don't know any Christian who worships graven images. You clearly have no understanding of iconography. No different from sacred music - just an expression in another medium and a window whereby we may be better enabled to worship He who is worthy. Who anointed you arbiter?


By worshiping graven images. Sure.
Oldbear83
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curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.


Who gets to define "worshipping"? You? Me? Someone else?


Objectivity. If you see a Hindu bowing and praying to an elephant god at a tiny shrine, you can't rationally think a Catholic doing the same thing to a shrine of Mary is any different. They are precisely the same activity for the same purpose. They are both antithetical to Christianity.


I had thought you less thick. Guess not. I don't know any Christian who worships graven images. You clearly have no understanding of iconography. No different from sacred music - just an expression in another medium and a window whereby we may be better enabled to worship He who is worthy. Who anointed you arbiter?
Did a little looking, and found this:



https://www.somethingawful.com/awful-things-sale/online-pope-kit/

So it seems you can do it yourself, if you want.

And there's a market for it, it seems:

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
GoldMind
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curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.


Who gets to define "worshipping"? You? Me? Someone else?


Objectivity. If you see a Hindu bowing and praying to an elephant god at a tiny shrine, you can't rationally think a Catholic doing the same thing to a shrine of Mary is any different. They are precisely the same activity for the same purpose. They are both antithetical to Christianity.


I had thought you less thick. Guess not. I don't know any Christian who worships graven images. You clearly have no understanding of iconography. No different from sacred music - just an expression in another medium and a window whereby we may be better enabled to worship He who is worthy. Who anointed you arbiter?


I think he's part of the answer to my original question.

We Bears will act in the interest of Baylor whether we do it in compliance with the constitution or not, whether we do it in compliance in the law or not, whether we do it in compliance with party statutes or not.

curtpenn
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

curtpenn said:

Canon said:

Did you find the biblical definition of graven images to be narrow in some way?


Who gets to decide what that "biblical definition" is or what it means? Are we not all priests with direct access able to make up our own definitions?


Read the second commandment and tell me where you find significant wiggle room to allow worshipping saints at dedicated alters to same.


Who gets to define "worshipping"? You? Me? Someone else?


Objectivity. If you see a Hindu bowing and praying to an elephant god at a tiny shrine, you can't rationally think a Catholic doing the same thing to a shrine of Mary is any different. They are precisely the same activity for the same purpose. They are both antithetical to Christianity.


I had thought you less thick. Guess not. I don't know any Christian who worships graven images. You clearly have no understanding of iconography. No different from sacred music - just an expression in another medium and a window whereby we may be better enabled to worship He who is worthy. Who anointed you arbiter?
Did a little looking, and found this:



https://www.somethingawful.com/awful-things-sale/online-pope-kit/

So it seems you can do it yourself, if you want.

And there's a market for it, it seems:




I only have a cassock and surplice along with an academic hood worn both when I was in some of our parish choirs and as a Lay Reader. Hoods are typically only worn during services without Communion. By tradition, one wears a hood made with your school colors. Have to say I have always taken pride in flinging my green and gold afar via vestments.
 
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