Brief outline of liturgical development:

http://www.utccs.org/documents/history_of_liturgy.pdf

FWIW, I consider the typical Baptist Order of Service that has prevailed in the US for many decades a form of liturgical worship with almost all the same elements one would find in the rubrics of the Book of Common Prayer for the office of Morning Prayer (no Eucharist). The BCP merely stipulates which readings are to be read and in what order, whereby most of the Bible is covered in a repeating pattern. What could be more Biblical than having an invocation, readings from the OT, NT (both from the gospels and the epistles), and the Psalms, followed by a sermon? Too often, we fear, criticize, or denigrate that which we do not understand.

curtpenn said:

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Mothra said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

The Greek Orthodox priests specifically say "intercede on our behalf"

curtpenn said:

---

FWIW, I consider the typical Baptist Order of Service that has prevailed in the US for many decades a form of liturgical worship with almost all the same elements one would find in the rubrics of the Book of Common Prayer for the office of Morning Prayer (no Eucharist). The BCP merely stipulates which readings are to be read and in what order, whereby most of the Bible is covered in a repeating pattern. What could be more Biblical than having an invocation, readings from the OT, NT (both from the gospels and the epistles), and the Psalms, followed by a sermon? Too often, we fear, criticize, or denigrate that which we do not understand.

---

The Baptist church my wife attends goes like this

Sing for 10-15min
Preacher comes and preaches for 40 min or so
Sing 10-15 min
Dismissed

GoldMind said:

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curtpenn said:

---

FWIW, I consider the typical Baptist Order of Service that has prevailed in the US for many decades a form of liturgical worship with almost all the same elements one would find in the rubrics of the Book of Common Prayer for the office of Morning Prayer (no Eucharist). The BCP merely stipulates which readings are to be read and in what order, whereby most of the Bible is covered in a repeating pattern. What could be more Biblical than having an invocation, readings from the OT, NT (both from the gospels and the epistles), and the Psalms, followed by a sermon? Too often, we fear, criticize, or denigrate that which we do not understand.

---

The Baptist church my wife attends goes like this

Sing for 10-15min
Preacher comes and preaches for 40 min or so
Sing 10-15 min
Dismissed

---

Understand. I was on the music committee at a large North Dallas Baptist church in the '90s that had a history of fine music and fine preaching. Retirement led to new staffing and conversations about making the transition to more contemporary worship via "blended" music. I made the point that all that would accomplish would be to make everyone unhappy. My comments were not well received. Was confirmed in the Episcopal Church a couple of years later initially due to my interest in serious choral music. My love for the Book of Common Prayer and the Anglican via media developed later. Disclosure - I'd be very content to eliminate the sermons. Lol.

GoldMind said:

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BearTruth13 said:

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GoldMind said:

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trey3216 said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart. The standard liturgy makes it much easier to kind of go through the motions of worship rather than challenging yourself to come from the heart in earnest regarding your personal worship. It's just a different view of how we present ourselves before God.

Confession- Why do I need to speak to a priest about my sins when I can ask God forgiveness earnestly, and directly. The priest is also a sinner, and is not on a higher plane of religious might than I am. I will ask him to pray for me, but not on my behalf en lieu of me also praying for myself.

Communion- The Lord's Supper is an extraordinarily special expression of the representation of the Body & Blood of Christ. Why water it down as formality rather than celebrate it with contemplative reverence?

Baptism- Baptism in the Baptist Church is an outward expression that you have placed your Faith in Jesus Christ and believe in Him as your Resurrected Lord & Savior, rather than being baptized as an infant when you cannot express faith in anything other than your mom/dad are going to provide you with milk.

Just a few thoughts...

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This is what I wanted to know, thank you

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You couldn't put any of that together?

---

Nope, I'm a big ol stupid dumbass.

---

Still a better contributor than most around here.

curtpenn said:

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Mothra said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

My wife asks for Mary's intercession daily along with praying the Rosary .

I can't argue with the results.

For those posting here with some knowledge of Anglicanism, I found the result provided by this quiz a pretty accurate assessment of where I fall on the spectrum. If you have limited exposure, it might help you think about things you've never really been aware of or considered:

High Church Evangelical/Evangelical Catholic

You're virtually liturgically indistinguishable from a Ritualist or Tractarian, but you're always quick to remind people that "High Church does NOT equal Anglo-Catholic." You have no problems with being called a Protestant, but you would prefer being called a reformed catholic. You can list all the ways Luther was still pretty conservative liturgically and know about High Church movements in Lutheranism and the Reformed Tradition. You make a distinction between dominical sacraments and the five other traditional ones, and you also think we need to be doing a LOT more to evangelize by telling people about Jesus."

https://uquiz.com/quiz/HAHqMm/what-kind-of-anglican-are-you

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

I have many Catholic friends and understand the perspective. I simply see no scriptural support for it. There is not a single example in scripture of the Jews or Christians praying to mortal man, or asking him/her to intercede on their behalf. Indeed, there is no evidence in scripture that those long dead can or do intercede on our behalf. In fact, because we are in a direct relationship with God through Christ, we have no need for intercession. And I think therein lies the problem with beliefs such as these which add to the authority of scripture and create a hierarchy that simply does not exist.

I recall Paul and Peter chiding new Christians who saw their miracles and bowed down to them, or attempted to treat them like they were something more than they were - sinners saved by the grace of God. They made sure to convey that they were unworthy of such praise. Indeed, they are great men who led many to Christ, and our early church fathers. But at the end of the day, they are STILL just men.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

I have had this explained as not "praying to" but more as a "prayer partner". I've asked family and friends to pray for me many times before. I have never asked a dead family member to pray for me. While I have said things ""to"" deceased relatives before like "Daddy I should have paid attention when you were doing X" it is really just me talking to myself. My daddy is in the company of our Heavenly Father and I don't believe is concerned about worldly things right now except to celebrate when another comes to Christ.

I've also had it explained to me that Mary pleads our case to Jesus. My issue with this is, why would she need to plead that He do something that was already His nature.

I've no idea if either explanation is as the Catholic Church views it but maybe, just two individuals I was speaking with.

---

Agree with this for the most part. That said, I listen to a Catholic radio station here in Austin quite regularly, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard a prayer directly to Mary without any mention of Christ or God. It's as if she has attained deity status.

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

I have had this explained as not "praying to" but more as a "prayer partner". I've asked family and friends to pray for me many times before. I have never asked a dead family member to pray for me. While I have said things ""to"" deceased relatives before like "Daddy I should have paid attention when you were doing X" it is really just me talking to myself. My daddy is in the company of our Heavenly Father and I don't believe is concerned about worldly things right now except to celebrate when another comes to Christ.

I've also had it explained to me that Mary pleads our case to Jesus. My issue with this is, why would she need to plead that He do something that was already His nature.

I've no idea if either explanation is as the Catholic Church views it but maybe, just two individuals I was speaking with.

---

Agree with this for the most part. That said, I listen to a Catholic radio station here in Austin quite regularly, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard a prayer directly to Mary without any mention of Christ or God. It's as if she has attained deity status.

---

Invoking Mary in prayer this way is rarer in Orthodoxy. She is held in similar reverence, but doesn't carry the same "weight". For example she is prevalent in their iconography.

Mothra said:

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curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

I have many Catholic friends and understand the perspective. I simply see no scriptural support for it. There is not a single example in scripture of the Jews or Christians praying to mortal man, or asking him/her to intercede on their behalf. Indeed, there is no evidence in scripture that those long dead can or do intercede on our behalf. In fact, because we are in a direct relationship with God through Christ, we have no need for intercession. And I think therein lies the problem with beliefs such as these which add to the authority of scripture and create a hierarchy that simply does not exist.

I recall Paul and Peter chiding new Christians who saw their miracles and bowed down to them, or attempted to treat them like they were something more than they were - sinners saved by the grace of God. They made sure to convey that they were unworthy of such praise. Indeed, they are great men who led many to Christ, and our early church fathers. But at the end of the day, they are STILL just men.

---

Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no need for intercessory prayer at all?

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

I have many Catholic friends and understand the perspective. I simply see no scriptural support for it. There is not a single example in scripture of the Jews or Christians praying to mortal man, or asking him/her to intercede on their behalf. Indeed, there is no evidence in scripture that those long dead can or do intercede on our behalf. In fact, because we are in a direct relationship with God through Christ, we have no need for intercession. And I think therein lies the problem with beliefs such as these which add to the authority of scripture and create a hierarchy that simply does not exist.

I recall Paul and Peter chiding new Christians who saw their miracles and bowed down to them, or attempted to treat them like they were something more than they were - sinners saved by the grace of God. They made sure to convey that they were unworthy of such praise. Indeed, they are great men who led many to Christ, and our early church fathers. But at the end of the day, they are STILL just men.

---

Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no need for intercessory prayer at all?

---

I see the need to pray for others. I see the need for Christ to intercede on our behalf. I don't get the Mary thing.

BearTruth13 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

I have many Catholic friends and understand the perspective. I simply see no scriptural support for it. There is not a single example in scripture of the Jews or Christians praying to mortal man, or asking him/her to intercede on their behalf. Indeed, there is no evidence in scripture that those long dead can or do intercede on our behalf. In fact, because we are in a direct relationship with God through Christ, we have no need for intercession. And I think therein lies the problem with beliefs such as these which add to the authority of scripture and create a hierarchy that simply does not exist.

I recall Paul and Peter chiding new Christians who saw their miracles and bowed down to them, or attempted to treat them like they were something more than they were - sinners saved by the grace of God. They made sure to convey that they were unworthy of such praise. Indeed, they are great men who led many to Christ, and our early church fathers. But at the end of the day, they are STILL just men.

---

Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no need for intercessory prayer at all?

---

I see the need to pray for others. I see the need for Christ to intercede on our behalf. I don't get the Mary thing.

---

I think he meant the intercession of Mary and the Catholic Saints. Correct me if I'm wrong Mothra.

GoldMind said:

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curtpenn said:

---

FWIW, I consider the typical Baptist Order of Service that has prevailed in the US for many decades a form of liturgical worship with almost all the same elements one would find in the rubrics of the Book of Common Prayer for the office of Morning Prayer (no Eucharist). The BCP merely stipulates which readings are to be read and in what order, whereby most of the Bible is covered in a repeating pattern. What could be more Biblical than having an invocation, readings from the OT, NT (both from the gospels and the epistles), and the Psalms, followed by a sermon? Too often, we fear, criticize, or denigrate that which we do not understand.

---

The Baptist church my wife attends goes like this

Sing for 10-15min
Preacher comes and preaches for 40 min or so
Sing 10-15 min
Dismissed

---

Someone oughta tell that preacher that no one listens to anybody for more than 20 minutes.

Robert Wilson said:

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GoldMind said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

FWIW, I consider the typical Baptist Order of Service that has prevailed in the US for many decades a form of liturgical worship with almost all the same elements one would find in the rubrics of the Book of Common Prayer for the office of Morning Prayer (no Eucharist). The BCP merely stipulates which readings are to be read and in what order, whereby most of the Bible is covered in a repeating pattern. What could be more Biblical than having an invocation, readings from the OT, NT (both from the gospels and the epistles), and the Psalms, followed by a sermon? Too often, we fear, criticize, or denigrate that which we do not understand.

---

The Baptist church my wife attends goes like this

Sing for 10-15min
Preacher comes and preaches for 40 min or so
Sing 10-15 min
Dismissed

---

Someone oughta tell that preacher that no one listens to anybody for more than 20 minutes.

---

These days, you're lucky to get 20 seconds of attention from people.

Oldbear83 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

FWIW, I consider the typical Baptist Order of Service that has prevailed in the US for many decades a form of liturgical worship with almost all the same elements one would find in the rubrics of the Book of Common Prayer for the office of Morning Prayer (no Eucharist). The BCP merely stipulates which readings are to be read and in what order, whereby most of the Bible is covered in a repeating pattern. What could be more Biblical than having an invocation, readings from the OT, NT (both from the gospels and the epistles), and the Psalms, followed by a sermon? Too often, we fear, criticize, or denigrate that which we do not understand.

---

The Baptist church my wife attends goes like this

Sing for 10-15min
Preacher comes and preaches for 40 min or so
Sing 10-15 min
Dismissed

---

Someone oughta tell that preacher that no one listens to anybody for more than 20 minutes.

---

These days, you're lucky to get 20 seconds of attention from people.

---

True

Preaching for 40 minutes straight now is just throwing verbiage and time down a rat hole

Some people hunger and thirst for 40 minutes, some for 20 minutes. When Luby's and Piccadilly were both still around, we were hungry and thirsty about 3 minutes less than the Lutherans next door. If it was a noon kickoff for the cowboys, there was very little hunger and thirsting going on.

It is odd that we think 40 minutes is an intolerable amount of time but nations that depend on the underground church have no issue going 3-4 hours.

I guess the longer you've been starved, the hungrier you are.

Our church does about 30 minutes of worship and 30 minutes of sermon. I think that is perfect. Get your 4 or so bullet points to convey but doesn't last too long.

BearTruth13 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

I have many Catholic friends and understand the perspective. I simply see no scriptural support for it. There is not a single example in scripture of the Jews or Christians praying to mortal man, or asking him/her to intercede on their behalf. Indeed, there is no evidence in scripture that those long dead can or do intercede on our behalf. In fact, because we are in a direct relationship with God through Christ, we have no need for intercession. And I think therein lies the problem with beliefs such as these which add to the authority of scripture and create a hierarchy that simply does not exist.

I recall Paul and Peter chiding new Christians who saw their miracles and bowed down to them, or attempted to treat them like they were something more than they were - sinners saved by the grace of God. They made sure to convey that they were unworthy of such praise. Indeed, they are great men who led many to Christ, and our early church fathers. But at the end of the day, they are STILL just men.

---

Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no need for intercessory prayer at all?

---

I see the need to pray for others. I see the need for Christ to intercede on our behalf. I don't get the Mary thing

---

Seeing that you perceive a need to pray for others, I must assume you believe in the efficacy of intercessory prayer. Do you ever ask others to also make intercession for yourself or your other prayer concerns? My point being, if you believe intercessory prayer is efficacious, then you might be able to see the point in asking Mary or any believer (past or present) to also offer up prayers on our behalf. This is not a trick question or meant to impune anyone's beliefs.

trey3216 said:

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GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart. The standard liturgy makes it much easier to kind of go through the motions of worship rather than challenging yourself to come from the heart in earnest regarding your personal worship. It's just a different view of how we present ourselves before God.

Confession- Why do I need to speak to a priest about my sins when I can ask God forgiveness earnestly, and directly. The priest is also a sinner, and is not on a higher plane of religious might than I am. I will ask him to pray for me, but not on my behalf en lieu of me also praying for myself.

Communion- The Lord's Supper is an extraordinarily special expression of the representation of the Body & Blood of Christ. Why water it down as formality rather than celebrate it with contemplative reverence?

Baptism- Baptism in the Baptist Church is an outward expression that you have placed your Faith in Jesus Christ and believe in Him as your Resurrected Lord & Savior, rather than being baptized as an infant when you cannot express faith in anything other than your mom/dad are going to provide you with milk.

Just a few thoughts...

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while I don't even try to depict myself as a model Baptist, I agree with everything in this post. Well said.

Always amuses me when still another discussion about Catholics and Catholicism comes along .

Over the years there have been over 100 such conversations .



Yet I cant recall even a single instance where Catholics initiated a thread 'analyzing' Baptist doctrine .

Of course the Crimson Tide football program doesn't concern itself about Vanderbilt either .






Peace be with you .

I'm not sure I believe my own church is the continuation of the apostles and Christs church. I've studied this on and off for years. Personally, it seems the Orthodox Church is the closest thing to the OG.

curtpenn said:

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Mothra said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

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Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

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My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

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I guess what this comes down to then is this: do those in heaven, our deceased loved ones and venerated saints ( I hope that's the right word or else I'm advertising my ignorance) hear our prayers so in turn, pray for us?

Is there anything in scripture that says they do? If they hear the prayers of poor, broken sinners hear, is that introducing something into heaven that is less than paradise? Will some of our heavenly work be intercessory prayer up until the new heaven and new earth?

The only thing I can think of that may is the rich man in Hades conversing with Abraham when he ask that he send Lazarus down to quench his tongue. I think this is the only time I've considered that scripture in this way. Are there others? Am I interpreting correctly or not?

GoldMind said:

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I'm not sure I believe my own church is the continuation of the apostles and Christs church. I've studied this on and off for years. Personally, it seems the Orthodox Church is the closest thing to the OG.

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I greatly respect the Orthodox church and would love for them to be in full communion with Rome, they lack the unity to further define doctrine/dogmas. They have no central authority. They have allow doctrines and disciplines to shift in the culture.

It all comes down to authority. Before the great Schism in 1054 (which was many decades in the making), the Pope in the west was also a local Patriarch. He was first among equals.

From the very beginning, starting in Acts, Peter is the head of the Church. An unbroken line of popes follow him, that were well documented in the writings of the church fathers.

Sadly, the differences between the two are reconcilable but it may take 100+ years to reconcile.

Both the Catholics and Orthodox have all seven sacraments. Both are valid churches that can be traced directly back to our founder Jesus. One day, they will unite.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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I guess what this comes down to then is this: do those in heaven, our deceased loved ones and venerated saints ( I hope that's the right word or else I'm advertising my ignorance) hear our prayers so in turn, pray for us?

Is there anything in scripture that says they do? If they hear the prayers of poor, broken sinners hear, is that introducing something into heaven that is less than paradise? Will some of our heavenly work be intercessory prayer up until the new heaven and new earth?

The only thing I can think of that may is the rich man in Hades conversing with Abraham when he ask that he send Lazarus down to quench his tongue. I think this is the only time I've considered that scripture in this way. Are there others? Am I interpreting correctly or not?

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Revelation 5:8 - And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Here, John is referring to the "saints" as those individuals on earth. Most scholars would argue that 24 elders are the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles or a completion of the body of Christ (his church.)

These elders (those in heaven) are taking our prayers to the lamb (Jesus.)

Osodecentx said:

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GoldMind said:

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There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?

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It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

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A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.

Mothra said:

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trey3216 said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

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So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

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There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

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I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart.

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Bingo. Can't tell you how many Presbyterian services I have sat through the years where the pastor reads a prayer from a script to the congregation, and we have our little script and are supposed to respond to it. None of it comes from the heart.

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This is the biggest difference. Baptists have this monopoly on theology, this huge ego. They are above doing any regular thing the Bible asks. Other denominations make sure you can follow the Bible, at least on Sunday, in an organized manner. Baptists don't get it even more than those nailing Jesus to the cross. They are those same religious leaders, barely changed until today.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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curtpenn said:

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Mothra said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

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Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

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My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

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I guess what this comes down to then is this: do those in heaven, our deceased loved ones and venerated saints ( I hope that's the right word or else I'm advertising my ignorance) hear our prayers so in turn, pray for us?

Is there anything in scripture that says they do? If they hear the prayers of poor, broken sinners hear, is that introducing something into heaven that is less than paradise? Will some of our heavenly work be intercessory prayer up until the new heaven and new earth?

The only thing I can think of that may is the rich man in Hades conversing with Abraham when he ask that he send Lazarus down to quench his tongue. I think this is the only time I've considered that scripture in this way. Are there others? Am I interpreting correctly or not?

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I think you are on the right track and asking the correct questions. I am no expert and acknowledge we are in the realm of speculative theology from a Baptist/Protestant perspective, but invite you to consider what is known as the Communion of Saints; all believers who have ever been, are now, or who will ever be. Then, we must think about the nature of time, which is itself a created thing. I think of the Communion of Saints as existing in the eternal now, and that this "now" is apart from time. Short version, in this context asking others to pray for our concerns regardless of their temporal location makes sense.

You might consider reading Charles Williams's Descent Into Hell. You should know it isn't an easy read and many don't care for it. Williams was one of the Inklings and I've read that CS Lewis considered Descent Into Hell as one of his personally most influential works. My concept of space/time was greatly changed after reading this. I hope in a beneficial way. I invite you to consider that if we are always in the "now", then we can pray for a great many situations including past, present, and future. Kind of sobering/empowering to consider that we can pray for events long past or those far ahead. Your mileage may vary. Blessings for your journey.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/960493.Descent_into_Hell?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=vYIgOQxJIh&rank=1

"We therefore, ask those righteous folks heaven to pray for us. They are taking those prayers straight to Jesus."

Since Christ is the intercessor for all Mankind, this reads wrong to me. Christ - and Christ alone - speaks to the Father on our behalf, and we all - every last one of us - have access to Christ.

I agree with James 5:16, but I also recall Mark 3:31, where Mary summoned Jesus to come out and speak with her, and in verse 33 Jesus replied "who are my mother and my brothers?" meaning clearly that Mary held no special privilege.


I think God allows for intercessory prayer out of His grace, but it comes from the heart of the one making intercession, not the one asking someone to intercede for him or her. That is, if my mother who passed some years ago and is now with Jesus, were to ask the Father to help me in something, if the Lord would grant it He would do so out of love for her, while me asking my departed mother to speak to the Lord might provoke Him to ask why I don't ask Him myself. As for the mother of Jesus, we have never met, have nothing in common except that we both love her son Jesus. It really makes no sense for me to pray to Mary for anything, nor does it change the moral condition of anyone to do so. It smacks of idolatry, it really does.

Porteroso said:

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Osodecentx said:

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GoldMind said:

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There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?

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It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

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A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.

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Where does Scripture say we are to take wine every time we meet? I do not recall such a verse.

Coke Bear said:

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GoldMind said:

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I'm not sure I believe my own church is the continuation of the apostles and Christs church. I've studied this on and off for years. Personally, it seems the Orthodox Church is the closest thing to the OG.

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I greatly respect the Orthodox church and would love for them to be in full communion with Rome, they lack the unity to further define doctrine/dogmas. They have no central authority. They have allow doctrines and disciplines to shift in the culture.

It all comes down to authority. Before the great Schism in 1054 (which was many decades in the making), the Pope in the west was also a local Patriarch. He was first among equals.

From the very beginning, starting in Acts, Peter is the head of the Church. An unbroken line of popes follow him, that were well documented in the writings of the church fathers.

Sadly, the differences between the two are reconcilable but it may take 100+ years to reconcile.

Both the Catholics and Orthodox have all seven sacraments. Both are valid churches that can be traced directly back to our founder Jesus. One day, they will unite.

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The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople is the first among equals of that church.

As to the rest, it will be up to the Bishop of Rome when and if they reconcile, as his church was the first to excommunicate the other.

I pray one day.

Porteroso said:

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Osodecentx said:

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GoldMind said:

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There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?

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It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

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A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.

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Do you believe those who don't celebrate communion every time they gather can be saved?

Osodecentx said:

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Porteroso said:

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Osodecentx said:

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GoldMind said:

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There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?

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It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

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A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.

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Do you believe those who don't celebrate communion every time they gather can be saved?

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Yes. We all live in violation of a lot of the rules given to us. Grace is still there, no matter how much of the Bible we ignore. Do you come from an ultra legalistic background?