Nope. You sure do love denial, though ...TexasScientist said:Maybe I set you off.Oldbear83 said:
TS: 'You don't set me off."
Something sure does.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Nope. You sure do love denial, though ...TexasScientist said:Maybe I set you off.Oldbear83 said:
TS: 'You don't set me off."
Something sure does.
I don't think that's the kind of question that textual criticism can answer.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.
But then wouldn't that be a miracle that you don't believe? The problem would still remain.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.
Hmmm?Oldbear83 said:Nope. You sure do love denial, though ...TexasScientist said:Maybe I set you off.Oldbear83 said:
TS: 'You don't set me off."
Something sure does.
It goes to an overriding and more logical question, one where textual criticism is irrelevant.Sam Lowry said:I don't think that's the kind of question that textual criticism can answer.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.
That would render belief in miracles immaterial.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But then wouldn't that be a miracle that you don't believe? The problem would still remain.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.
Not when context is applied, no.TexasScientist said:Hmmm?Oldbear83 said:Nope. You sure do love denial, though ...TexasScientist said:Maybe I set you off.Oldbear83 said:
TS: 'You don't set me off."
Something sure does.
"Maybe I set you off." Statement
"Nope. You sure do love denial, though ..." Denial
Do you think you're contradicting yourself? (I'm sure you don't.)
No it wouldn't. Only a supernatural form of communication would qualify as "unequivocal" to you, and your inherent aversion to that possibility would lead you to rationalize such an occurrence as being just a hallucination not to be believed.TexasScientist said:That would render belief in miracles immaterial.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But then wouldn't that be a miracle that you don't believe? The problem would still remain.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.
Hearsay is no basis for making assumptions nor belief.Sam Lowry said:I don't think that's the kind of question that textual criticism can answer.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.
You seem to have lack of faith in your imaginary god's ability to reveal himself in an unequivocal, imperial even testable way.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:No it wouldn't. Only a supernatural form of communication would qualify as "unequivocal" to you, and your inherent aversion to that possibility would lead you to rationalize such an occurrence as being just a hallucination not to be believed.TexasScientist said:That would render belief in miracles immaterial.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But then wouldn't that be a miracle that you don't believe? The problem would still remain.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.
99 percent of the information we consume is hearsay. We all base our beliefs on it.TexasScientist said:Hearsay is no basis for making assumptions nor belief.Sam Lowry said:I don't think that's the kind of question that textual criticism can answer.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.
No, the only faith I lack is in YOUR ability to come up with an adequate rebuttal after thinking about it for 2 weeks.TexasScientist said:You seem to have lack of faith in your imaginary god's ability to reveal himself in an unequivocal, imperial even testable way.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:No it wouldn't. Only a supernatural form of communication would qualify as "unequivocal" to you, and your inherent aversion to that possibility would lead you to rationalize such an occurrence as being just a hallucination not to be believed.TexasScientist said:That would render belief in miracles immaterial.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But then wouldn't that be a miracle that you don't believe? The problem would still remain.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.
If miracles were repeatable and testable, they would cease to be evidence of a god. They would just be another phenomenon that you couldn't explain yet. Supernatural events are the only logical way that a supernatural being can reveal itself.TexasScientist said:You seem to have lack of faith in your imaginary god's ability to reveal himself in an unequivocal, imperial even testable way.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:No it wouldn't. Only a supernatural form of communication would qualify as "unequivocal" to you, and your inherent aversion to that possibility would lead you to rationalize such an occurrence as being just a hallucination not to be believed.TexasScientist said:That would render belief in miracles immaterial.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:But then wouldn't that be a miracle that you don't believe? The problem would still remain.TexasScientist said:Well if there is a god, why rely on an author to communicate anything? Why not do it directly and unequivocally?Sam Lowry said:Assuming miracles occurred, is there any way around that problem? How should the author deal with it?TexasScientist said:Writing about "miracles" he did is another problem in and of itself, as far as believability.Sam Lowry said:That seems to be an epistemological problem rather than a problem with the claims of Jesus as such. What kind of documentation, consistent with the practices of the time, would convince you of what Jesus said or did?TexasScientist said:I rationalized faith that way once. The problem is we don't really know what Jesus said or did, or what actually happened to his disciples.Oldbear83 said:
The key point here, from what I see, is whether you are willing to accept the Gospel as Christ taught it, and by that I mean the written accounts of what Christ did and said in the Scriptural accounts.
I mean, when we hear ministers quote Christ's command to 'take up your cross and follow me', we are used to sermons about moral responsibility and personal courage, but think about the fact that Christ said this, then was actually scourged with whips and hung upon a cross until he died. Think about the fact that - except for John - all of Christ's disciples died violent deaths. When we look at the hard reality, it's scary to be a Christian.
We like to live in a world where Christians are protected from persecution, where being Christian is to have beliefs and practices which are mainstream and therefore receive no threats or trouble. But to live as a follower of Christ means to take a stand which sometimes has great personal cost, and that's made clear throughout Scripture. The prophets of the Old Testament, for example, were commonly mocked and ignored by the people, some like Jeremiah were literally thrown into wells or even killed, others were ignored unless the people and Kings happened to like what the prophet said. People who live by faith have commonly been cut out from social castes and mocked as backward and resisting progress. Even here in the United States those who live by strict Christian principles are considered weird and maybe a bit stupid, like the Quakers or the Amish.
I have tried to be a good man, a good husband and father and citizen, but on reflection I worry that too often I do what pleases my sense of right and good, rather than serving God's glory and will. Part of the purpose to the Church is to provide a moral lodestone, faithful to Scripture, so men can check their bearings and find their way.
Mocking anchors leads to shipwreck.