Doc Holliday said:

---

Trump voters are worried that Desantis will be a neocon or quasi populist.

But here's the deal with Trump: he ran on drain the swamp...but he didn't deliver.

So if Desantis doesn't deliver, you get the same thing but without all the nonsense, media insanity and Trump being a dick.

---

Trump couldnt deliver on that bc the swamp had him tied up in knots with investigations. I dont know if Desantis will deliver on that or not. To me Desantis seems surrounded by WEF swampy types. Christina Pushaw will probably be his campaign manager and she worked for a Soros NGO. From what he has done, I like Desantis but I'm just worried that he may be the establishments man to hijack Maga to take us back to the same old uniparty.

He'll only get my vote once if he does

Doc Holliday said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

xxx yyy said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BornAgain said:

---

It will be a primary like we have never seen before

---

Trump will resume his spoiled rich kid routine soon enough .

Republicans need to do to Trump what Dem power brokers did to Bernie in 2020 . Organized ....ruthless .....political head chopping .

Sooner the better.

---

Bernie and Trump supporters are similar in some ways--in some instances they are the same people (a fact that leaves me wondering about the democratic process, education, drug testing, et. al.)
The fact is, they tend to not support other candidates when their guy is out. A lot of Bernie's failed to show up for Hillary, and I would expect a lot of Trump's will not show up for the Republican nominee --especially if the campaign against Trump should get ugly, which it will.

---

Trump supporters are not for governing. They seem to be about the negative, rather than the positive. I don't hear much about what they want, just what they want to stop, end or change. That to me is the biggest difference between Trump 16 and today. Would love to hear what they are for, sick of the negative crap...

---

So I'm not voting for Trump again, but the sentiment of wanting to stop, end or change things is because that's the only way to actually get improvement.

GOP voters at large know their taxes are too high and the government is wasting it on total bs. It needs to end. They know more government spells more trouble on their finances, education and livelihood.

We are for less. We are for stripping away power that's abused and used for cronyism, grift and giant corporations that lean way left.

---

I am not sure I agree taxes are too high, at least in Florida. We are more sales and user fees than many states. I do agree that there is wasteful spending that need to stop. There is stupid spending, such a paying people not to work.

The reason I do not think taxes are too high is the cost of infrastructure. defense and education. To maintain where we in quality of life will cost. I view those things as investments, but we have a huge nation and lots of areas to improve in a shrinking world.

Doc Holliday said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

xxx yyy said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BornAgain said:

---

It will be a primary like we have never seen before

---

Trump will resume his spoiled rich kid routine soon enough .

Republicans need to do to Trump what Dem power brokers did to Bernie in 2020 . Organized ....ruthless .....political head chopping .

Sooner the better.

---

Bernie and Trump supporters are similar in some ways--in some instances they are the same people (a fact that leaves me wondering about the democratic process, education, drug testing, et. al.)
The fact is, they tend to not support other candidates when their guy is out. A lot of Bernie's failed to show up for Hillary, and I would expect a lot of Trump's will not show up for the Republican nominee --especially if the campaign against Trump should get ugly, which it will.

---

Trump supporters are not for governing. They seem to be about the negative, rather than the positive. I don't hear much about what they want, just what they want to stop, end or change. That to me is the biggest difference between Trump 16 and today. Would love to hear what they are for, sick of the negative crap...

---

So I'm not voting for Trump again, but the sentiment of wanting to stop, end or change things is because that's the only way to actually get improvement.

GOP voters at large know their taxes are too high and the government is wasting it on total bs. It needs to end. They know more government spells more trouble on their finances, education and livelihood.

We are for less. We are for stripping away power that's abused and used for cronyism, grift and giant corporations that lean way left.

---

I am not sure I agree taxes are too high, at least in Florida. We are more sales and user fees than many states. I do agree that there is wasteful spending that need to stop. There is stupid spending, such a paying people not to work.

The reason I do not think taxes are too high is the cost of infrastructure. defense and education. To maintain where we in quality of life will cost. I view those things as investments, but we have a huge nation and lots of areas to improve in a shrinking world.

---

The costs are too high because State/Local and the Federal government do not compete for lower costs or better contractors. They compete for contractors that kick back money into campaigns and politics. Money is appropriated extremely high because it means they get more back.

The unnecessary Red tape and regulations we have are put there, not for legitimate reasons, but because it moves money to cronies.

The government would pay $20 for a single pencil. That's an accurate analogy of how bad things are right now.

---

#1, you DO NOT want low bid building infrastructure. You want some value engineering, but in a time with more need for system resilience you do not want the cheapest solution. Specifications and standards are needed and yes are expensive to build.

#2, most of the permitting and regulations are for a reason. You don't want pipelines going anywhere. Like it or not there are environmental impacts that have to be mitigated and it costs. Or, you end up with benzene in the water like the Panhandle. The extremely high cancer rates by Texas City. Development and industry can't stop. but it can be done safer.

#3, innovation costs money. Costs come down over time and as products move from prototype to production grade, but it is expensive. Media and anti-spending groups holler about costs of products, but there are alot of development costs built into that. As we get more technical and have more interoperability it is going to get worse. But, unless you want to fall behind, it needs to happen.

#4 Paying $20 for a pencil is a simplistic way of looking at a project. The overhead/development cost is built in. Everyone yells over the $20 pencil, but doesn't look at the overhead on the engine which is the same. Doesn't feed the narrative. Here is the explanation if you are interested, it is an accounting thing:

"The military bought the hammer, Kelman explained, bundled into one bulk purchase of many different spare parts. But when the contractors allocated their engineering expenses among the individual spare parts on the list-a bookkeeping exercise that had no effect on the price the Pentagon paid overall-they simply treated every item the same. So the hammer, originally $15, picked up the same amount of research and development overhead-$420-as each of the highly technical components, recalled retired procurement official LeRoy Haugh. (Later news stories inflated the $435 figure to $600.)

"The hammer got as much overhead as an engine," Kelman continued, despite the fact that the hammer cost much less than $420 to develop, and the engine cost much more-"but nobody ever said, 'What a great deal the government got on the engine!' "

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

xxx yyy said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BornAgain said:

---

It will be a primary like we have never seen before

---

Trump will resume his spoiled rich kid routine soon enough .

Republicans need to do to Trump what Dem power brokers did to Bernie in 2020 . Organized ....ruthless .....political head chopping .

Sooner the better.

---

Bernie and Trump supporters are similar in some ways--in some instances they are the same people (a fact that leaves me wondering about the democratic process, education, drug testing, et. al.)
The fact is, they tend to not support other candidates when their guy is out. A lot of Bernie's failed to show up for Hillary, and I would expect a lot of Trump's will not show up for the Republican nominee --especially if the campaign against Trump should get ugly, which it will.

---

Trump supporters are not for governing. They seem to be about the negative, rather than the positive. I don't hear much about what they want, just what they want to stop, end or change. That to me is the biggest difference between Trump 16 and today. Would love to hear what they are for, sick of the negative crap...

---

So I'm not voting for Trump again, but the sentiment of wanting to stop, end or change things is because that's the only way to actually get improvement.

GOP voters at large know their taxes are too high and the government is wasting it on total bs. It needs to end. They know more government spells more trouble on their finances, education and livelihood.

We are for less. We are for stripping away power that's abused and used for cronyism, grift and giant corporations that lean way left.

---

I am not sure I agree taxes are too high, at least in Florida. We are more sales and user fees than many states. I do agree that there is wasteful spending that need to stop. There is stupid spending, such a paying people not to work.

The reason I do not think taxes are too high is the cost of infrastructure. defense and education. To maintain where we in quality of life will cost. I view those things as investments, but we have a huge nation and lots of areas to improve in a shrinking world.

---

The costs are too high because State/Local and the Federal government do not compete for lower costs or better contractors. They compete for contractors that kick back money into campaigns and politics. Money is appropriated extremely high because it means they get more back.

The unnecessary Red tape and regulations we have are put there, not for legitimate reasons, but because it moves money to cronies.

The government would pay $20 for a single pencil. That's an accurate analogy of how bad things are right now.

---

#1, you DO NOT want low bid building infrastructure. You want some value engineering, but in a time with more need for system resilience you do not want the cheapest solution. Specifications and standards are needed and yes are expensive to build.

#2, most of the permitting and regulations are for a reason. You don't want pipelines going anywhere. Like it or not there are environmental impacts that have to be mitigated and it costs. Or, you end up with benzene in the water like the Panhandle. The extremely high cancer rates by Texas City. Development and industry can't stop. but it can be done safer.

#3, innovation costs money. Costs come down over time and as products move from prototype to production grade, but it is expensive. Media and anti-spending groups holler about costs of products, but there are alot of development costs built into that. As we get more technical and have more interoperability it is going to get worse. But, unless you want to fall behind, it needs to happen.

#4 Paying $20 for a pencil is a simplistic way of looking at a project. The overhead/development cost is built in. Everyone yells over the $20 pencil, but doesn't look at the overhead on the engine which is the same. Doesn't feed the narrative. Here is the explanation if you are interested, it is an accounting thing:

"The military bought the hammer, Kelman explained, bundled into one bulk purchase of many different spare parts. But when the contractors allocated their engineering expenses among the individual spare parts on the list-a bookkeeping exercise that had no effect on the price the Pentagon paid overall-they simply treated every item the same. So the hammer, originally $15, picked up the same amount of research and development overhead-$420-as each of the highly technical components, recalled retired procurement official LeRoy Haugh. (Later news stories inflated the $435 figure to $600.)

"The hammer got as much overhead as an engine," Kelman continued, despite the fact that the hammer cost much less than $420 to develop, and the engine cost much more-"but nobody ever said, 'What a great deal the government got on the engine!' "

---

Regulations are absolutely necessary. I'm calling for smart spending, not abandoning regulations.

We want high value at low cost and its possible. The private sector accomplishes this every single day with a better product than what government offers.

We DO NOT have high value engineering or high quality infrastructure. There is zero evidence that hiring more expensive contractors means better results. We have extremely expensive projects that take too long and don't last. We have corrupt contractors and kickbacks.

Watch this video about how a simple park bathroom built by gov ends up being TOTALLY unjustified.


The main point I'm really getting is the government is deceptive in its spending. I'm not just talking about contractors, I'm talking about spending bills that are deceptive. Private sector firms cannot use deceptive language to raise money from investors. If a private sector firm is raising capital to build a private toll road, the uses of that money must be clearly defined and then spent on the needed infrastructure. If the federal government creates an infrastructure bill, much of the TRILLIONS are allocated to social spending: Medicare, childcare benefits, programs that pay for unjustified college tuition etc.

Do you not agree that we should get costs under control? The middle class can barely afford current taxation and they don't even qualify for welfare.

Malbec said:

---

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

fubar said:

---

Give us all a break. You'll vote for whatever candidate the Republicans nominate.

---

i may go full redneck and sit the next one out..

---

I vote libertarian in presidential elections where I feel both parties offer poor choices,

---

What if the Libertarian candidate is a "poor choice"?

---

Like Bob Barr in 2008?

I had voted for Ron Paul in the primary and was a delegate to the district convention. The party ****ed over Paul on behalf of McCain/Palin.

I cast a Green protest vote.

Doc Holliday said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

xxx yyy said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

BornAgain said:

---

It will be a primary like we have never seen before

---

Trump will resume his spoiled rich kid routine soon enough .

Republicans need to do to Trump what Dem power brokers did to Bernie in 2020 . Organized ....ruthless .....political head chopping .

Sooner the better.

---

Bernie and Trump supporters are similar in some ways--in some instances they are the same people (a fact that leaves me wondering about the democratic process, education, drug testing, et. al.)
The fact is, they tend to not support other candidates when their guy is out. A lot of Bernie's failed to show up for Hillary, and I would expect a lot of Trump's will not show up for the Republican nominee --especially if the campaign against Trump should get ugly, which it will.

---

Trump supporters are not for governing. They seem to be about the negative, rather than the positive. I don't hear much about what they want, just what they want to stop, end or change. That to me is the biggest difference between Trump 16 and today. Would love to hear what they are for, sick of the negative crap...

---

So I'm not voting for Trump again, but the sentiment of wanting to stop, end or change things is because that's the only way to actually get improvement.

GOP voters at large know their taxes are too high and the government is wasting it on total bs. It needs to end. They know more government spells more trouble on their finances, education and livelihood.

We are for less. We are for stripping away power that's abused and used for cronyism, grift and giant corporations that lean way left.

---

I am not sure I agree taxes are too high, at least in Florida. We are more sales and user fees than many states. I do agree that there is wasteful spending that need to stop. There is stupid spending, such a paying people not to work.

The reason I do not think taxes are too high is the cost of infrastructure. defense and education. To maintain where we in quality of life will cost. I view those things as investments, but we have a huge nation and lots of areas to improve in a shrinking world.

---

The costs are too high because State/Local and the Federal government do not compete for lower costs or better contractors. They compete for contractors that kick back money into campaigns and politics. Money is appropriated extremely high because it means they get more back.

The unnecessary Red tape and regulations we have are put there, not for legitimate reasons, but because it moves money to cronies.

The government would pay $20 for a single pencil. That's an accurate analogy of how bad things are right now.

---

#1, you DO NOT want low bid building infrastructure. You want some value engineering, but in a time with more need for system resilience you do not want the cheapest solution. Specifications and standards are needed and yes are expensive to build.

#2, most of the permitting and regulations are for a reason. You don't want pipelines going anywhere. Like it or not there are environmental impacts that have to be mitigated and it costs. Or, you end up with benzene in the water like the Panhandle. The extremely high cancer rates by Texas City. Development and industry can't stop. but it can be done safer.

#3, innovation costs money. Costs come down over time and as products move from prototype to production grade, but it is expensive. Media and anti-spending groups holler about costs of products, but there are alot of development costs built into that. As we get more technical and have more interoperability it is going to get worse. But, unless you want to fall behind, it needs to happen.

#4 Paying $20 for a pencil is a simplistic way of looking at a project. The overhead/development cost is built in. Everyone yells over the $20 pencil, but doesn't look at the overhead on the engine which is the same. Doesn't feed the narrative. Here is the explanation if you are interested, it is an accounting thing:

"The military bought the hammer, Kelman explained, bundled into one bulk purchase of many different spare parts. But when the contractors allocated their engineering expenses among the individual spare parts on the list-a bookkeeping exercise that had no effect on the price the Pentagon paid overall-they simply treated every item the same. So the hammer, originally $15, picked up the same amount of research and development overhead-$420-as each of the highly technical components, recalled retired procurement official LeRoy Haugh. (Later news stories inflated the $435 figure to $600.)

"The hammer got as much overhead as an engine," Kelman continued, despite the fact that the hammer cost much less than $420 to develop, and the engine cost much more-"but nobody ever said, 'What a great deal the government got on the engine!' "

---

Regulations are absolutely necessary. I'm calling for smart spending, not abandoning regulations.

We want high value at low cost and its possible. The private sector accomplishes this every single day with a better product than what government offers.

We DO NOT have high value engineering or high quality infrastructure. There is zero evidence that hiring more expensive contractors means better results. We have extremely expensive projects that take too long and don't last. We have corrupt contractors and kickbacks.

Watch this video about how a simple park bathroom built by gov ends up being TOTALLY unjustified.


The main point I'm really getting is the government is deceptive in its spending. I'm not just talking about contractors, I'm talking about spending bills that are deceptive. Private sector firms cannot use deceptive language to raise money from investors. If a private sector firm is raising capital to build a private toll road, the uses of that money must be clearly defined and then spent on the needed infrastructure. If the federal government creates an infrastructure bill, much of the TRILLIONS are allocated to social spending: Medicare, childcare benefits, programs that pay for unjustified college tuition etc.

Do you not agree that we should get costs under control? The middle class can barely afford current taxation and they don't even qualify for welfare.

---

Oh I agree, I just don't think infrastructure, defense or education are the places to cut.

Redbrickbear said:

---

I will always remember this Trump ad, which for some reason is incredibly difficult to find online anymore.

Probably the biggest own ever by Michael Moore, where he owned himself by actually understanding how people feel. His own people, who he feels nothing but contempt for. pic.twitter.com/JeXNnbHDIN

— 🏛 Aristophanes 🏛 (@Aristos_Return) November 16, 2022

---

Unbelievable!!! Trump should start re-running this campaign ad just as soon as possible! Well done, Michael Moore.

National review

No.
To paraphrase Voltaire after he attended an orgy, once was an experiment, twice would be perverse.
A bruised Donald Trump announced a new presidential bid on Tuesday night, an invitation to double down on the outrages and failures of the last several years that Republicans should reject without hesitation or doubt.
To his credit, Trump killed off the Clinton dynasty in 2016, nominated and got confirmed three constitutionalist justices, reformed taxes, pushed deregulation, got control of the border, significantly degraded ISIS in Syria and Iraq, and cinched normalization deals between Israel and the Gulf states, among other things. These are achievements that even his conservative doubters and critics including NR can acknowledge and applaud.
That said, the Trump administration was chaotic even on its best days because of his erratic nature and lack of seriousness. He often acted as if he were a commentator on his own presidency, and issued orders on Twitter and in other off-the-cuff statements that were ignored. He repeatedly had to be talked out of disastrous ideas by his advisers and Republican elected officials. He turned on cabinet officials and aides on a dime. Trump had a limited understanding of our constitutional system, and at the end of the day, little respect for it. His inability to approximate the conduct that the public expects of a president undermined him from beginning to end.
The latter factor played an outsized role in his narrow defeat to a feeble Joe Biden in 2020 in what was a winnable race. Of course, unable to cope with the humiliation of the loss, he pursued a shameful attempt to overturn the result of the election. He didn't come close to succeeding, but it wasn't for lack of trying. The episode ended with Trump, in a grotesque abuse of his powers, trying to bully Vice President Pence into unilaterally delaying or changing the count of electoral votes on January 6 and with an inflamed pro-Trump mob storming the Capitol while the president gave no indication that he particularly minded.
In the midst of this, he threw away two Georgia Senate seats in a fit of pique over Governor Brian Kemp and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger refusing to bend to his will. The resulting loss of Senate control allowed Biden to get trillions of dollars in spending that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise and confirm large numbers of progressive judges.
Since then, Trump has maintained his grip on the party and done all he can to force it to accept his delusions and lies about the 2020 election boosting conspiracy theorists and fanatics and targeting for defeat, with considerable success, anyone pushing back too hard against him or his obsessions.
Trump's success in imposing his fixations and candidate choices on the GOP played a large role in the GOP debacle in the midterms. This political backdrop raises the possibility that his low-energy announcement speech may be a damp squib.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/11/no/

Mothra said:

---

whiterock said:

---

xxx yyy said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I do think Trump will run as an independent if he does not get the nomination, and at this point I do not think he does. Trump has shown he is nothing but about himself and could care less about the Republican Party. He's pathetically delusional about his popularity, and he will not take no for an answer.

I would still hold my nose and vote for Trump against the authoritarians, but I hope it does not come to that.

---

Stuart Stevens said something like this last night: Desantis would be nuts to jump into the race at this point. In spite of the recent Texas poll (since when are we taking Texas polls seriously?) it would be an extremely difficult ugly, bloody campaign to win the nomination against Trump. Better he stays in the wings, wait for Trump to collapse, where he will be the first option if that happens. Whether Trump wins the nomination, wins the Presidency, or loses, Desantis would be a stronger candidate in 2028 with no incumbent to run against. He turns 50 in 28.

---

Correct up until that last two sentences. He will be weaker, not stronger in 2028 in all respects, and he will indeed have to run against an incumbent in 2028, either a sitting Republican VP or a sitting Dem POTUS.

He will make the push to get on the 2024 ticket somewhere. The only reason that might dissuade him is the health of his wife.

One cannot run for nomination in a party, lose, and easily step out to run third party. There are filing deadlines to get on the general Election ballot. Given Trumps money and support within the party, he is not likely to be an early departure. He will take it to the end. So the scenario proposed would be a LOT easier said than done.

---

So, your position is we are stuck with Trump?

---

That was my position at breakfast Tuesday last. Had we capture the Senate, it'd still be strong advantage Trump. Results have opened the door for DeSantis. the soft MAGA is on the fence, looking for a landing spot. So I'd rate it 50-50. I can't shake the fear that it is shaping up to be a classic "grassroots vs. establishment" race. No question that the donor class wants to move on and will line up behind DeSantis. Also no indication that the blue collar base is ready to do so.

So we watch and wait. Long time to go. I'd expect little to happen until the Walker race resolves. We'll see desultory artillery fire kick up again, no matter the outcome. Then it'll quiet down until the next Congress starts driving the narrative.

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

fubar said:

---

Give us all a break. You'll vote for whatever candidate the Republicans nominate.

---

Ummmmm..............Yes

---

And in the realm of possibilities, a Trump/Desantis ticket remains near, if not at the top of the list of likely outcomes

---

Always extremely unlikely..........now not a chance in the world .

---

If Trump wins, it's almost guaranteed.

Married A Horn said:

---

BearFan33 said:

---

I was hoping he wouldn't run but here we are. We could have an offensive jerk but an effective leader or we can have open borders, wars, recession and accelerated decline of the country. I'll take the jerk. The choice always seems to be the lesser of 2 evils.

Sadly, unless republicans up their ballot acquisition game, it won't matter who they run.

---

Last line is key. Play the game equally or forever lose.

---

To be consistent with my prior posts, I'd edit that to say "play by their rules, whatever they might be, only better."

xxx yyy said:

---

whiterock said:

---

xxx yyy said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I do think Trump will run as an independent if he does not get the nomination, and at this point I do not think he does. Trump has shown he is nothing but about himself and could care less about the Republican Party. He's pathetically delusional about his popularity, and he will not take no for an answer.

I would still hold my nose and vote for Trump against the authoritarians, but I hope it does not come to that.

---

Stuart Stevens said something like this last night: Desantis would be nuts to jump into the race at this point. In spite of the recent Texas poll (since when are we taking Texas polls seriously?) it would be an extremely difficult ugly, bloody campaign to win the nomination against Trump. Better he stays in the wings, wait for Trump to collapse, where he will be the first option if that happens. Whether Trump wins the nomination, wins the Presidency, or loses, Desantis would be a stronger candidate in 2028 with no incumbent to run against. He turns 50 in 28.

---

Correct up until that last two sentences. He will be weaker, not stronger in 2028 in all respects, and he will indeed have to run against an incumbent in 2028, either a sitting Republican VP or a sitting Dem POTUS.

He will make the push to get on the 2024 ticket somewhere. The only reason that might dissuade him is the health of his wife.

One cannot run for nomination in a party, lose, and easily step out to run third party. There are filing deadlines to get on the general Election ballot. Given Trumps money and support within the party, he is not likely to be an early departure. He will take it to the end. So the scenario proposed would be a LOT easier said than done.

---

The utterly crazy thing is... if Trump looks like he will win the nomination, there will be pressure on Biden to run as well. Hopefully, toward the middle of next year, we should start getting quality polling (not so much from Trafalgar, did any of their predictions hold up?) in the key states. Leading up to 2020, Biden was the only Dem who consistently polled even or above DJT in Pennsylvania, Wisc., Michigan--key states Dems absolutely have to have. Republicans could take 1 -2 of the three and win. With that, I don't see the possibility of an incumbent in the race in 28, assuming Trump stays in the race. You mention an incumbent Republican VP. Are you thinking Trump would be impeached on the third try? Not likely as you will still need 15-18 Republican Senators to convict. VPs running to replace a 2 term President in their own party do not do well, historically. Desantis should stay out of the VP role as it would be 4 years of Hell as Trump's VP.

---

Yes, it would. But he will bear the pain because it puts him in the best position to win in 2028.

That's assuming he doesn't win the 2024 nomination, which he very well might.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Johnny Bear said:

---

I get all the Trump hate. After all, our country was so much worse off when he was POTUS as compared to now. I mean who needs abundant inexpensive energy, little to no inflation, reliable supply chains, a secure border, growing 401K's, decreasing unemployment in all demographics, respect abroad, and a military that was focused on being the strongest and best fighting force in the world as opposed to being the wokest military in the world.

I don't know how we ever survived - and to think the man wants to restore all of that! Wow, what a monster!

---

Trump was a great president. His response to the Covid pandemic was mixed: he delivered the vaccine and tried to slow the spread only to be initially undermined by Democrats. As time wore on I think he became less effective and was too distracted by shiny things, and his daily PCs were confusing.

That being said, practically from a political standpoint he buried himself with the 2020 election paranoia. It has moved well beyond whether he's right or not but doing the right thing, which is moving on ... none of his public bloviation was matched by court filings, so he's just spewing crazy talk ... and he cannot let it go to the point of it being a weird litmus test for fealty to him.

People liked Trump because he was an anti-Establishment Establishment politician and focused on making America great vs. the globalist agenda. If he would have stayed there he would be popular, but everyone is tired of his act. And the mid-term elections proved it without question. Independents and a lot of Republicans may even think the 2020 election was fishy but it is way past move on time. Finally, he obviously cares more about himself than the Republican Party ... his stupid candidate selection and attacks on DeSantis show he's just lost his mind.

---

Yep and he's not going to gain extra support. We're up against 80+ million dem votes because of how ballots/mail has changed the game. We're up against unmarried white feminists and an entire media apparatus that drives votes to democrats.

Trump did some great things, but also surrounded himself with establishment neocons who stabbed him in the back. He had good policies, but wasn't as effective as he could have been. This is because he really doesn't understand the DC uniparty dynamics.

We don't need a bull in a china shop, we need a lion in the jungle.

---

That, I suspect, will be the plan for Trump. And conditions could be quite opportune.

whiterock said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

fubar said:

---

Give us all a break. You'll vote for whatever candidate the Republicans nominate.

---

Ummmmm..............Yes

---

And in the realm of possibilities, a Trump/Desantis ticket remains near, if not at the top of the list of likely outcomes

---

Always extremely unlikely..........now not a chance in the world .

---

If Trump wins, it's almost guaranteed.

---

Mark my words, DeSantis will not put himself as #2 to Trump as VP. He will wait from outside for 28. DepSantis does not view himself or his position today as subordinate to Trump, he believes they are equal or DeSantis is in a higher position.

What Whiterock is describing is not what I am seeing or hearing from the political machine in Florida. The lobbyist and campaign mangers I am talking to see extreme Trump fatigue and disgust, they are also seeing DeSantis as being seen as a true champion of freedom and the family. Just talked to several in Tallahassee yesterday.

Personally, I do not think that will be an issue because I do not believe that Trump gets nomination. I am not sure Trump won't have been prosecuted and convicted first, especially if any of these non-DOJ cases stick. There are about 9 of them active .

RMF5630 said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Canada2017 said:

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BornAgain said:

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It will be a primary like we have never seen before

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Trump will resume his spoiled rich kid routine soon enough .

Republicans need to do to Trump what Dem power brokers did to Bernie in 2020 . Organized ....ruthless .....political head chopping .

Sooner the better.

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Bernie and Trump supporters are similar in some ways--in some instances they are the same people (a fact that leaves me wondering about the democratic process, education, drug testing, et. al.)
The fact is, they tend to not support other candidates when their guy is out. A lot of Bernie's failed to show up for Hillary, and I would expect a lot of Trump's will not show up for the Republican nominee --especially if the campaign against Trump should get ugly, which it will.

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Trump supporters are not for governing. They seem to be about the negative, rather than the positive. I don't hear much about what they want, just what they want to stop, end or change. That to me is the biggest difference between Trump 16 and today. Would love to hear what they are for, sick of the negative crap...

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should note here that it was the RNC, the NRCC and SRCC, that established the narrative in the last election which was long on blaming Biden for how bad things were and notably short on a clear agenda for a remedy..... They set metrics for the numbers of voters they thought would be moved by such a message. And, if we are to believe what we are told, they hit those metrics. Yet, here we are.

We do indeed need to propose an agenda. Good things is, the policies of the prior administration are a pretty good one, one that every one remembers as responsible for peace and prosperity. (regardless who is the nominee. conservatism works.....)

Reality, though, is that people have a right to be mad/afraid given current conditions. Cultural institutions across the board are corrupted, completely dedicated to a progressive agenda and making not the faintest effort at fostering common good. In such an environment, playing to that anger/fear is just how politics will be played. The Dems did not run with a positive, uplifting message, did they? They talked apocalyptic end of days nonsense. And boy did they overperform even the most sober of expectations. Blew the GOP establishment plan out of the water.

We don't always get to fight the way we want.
We just have to win.

We are $300m or so short of what we need to turnout conservative votes in 2024.
Whether Trump is on the ticket or not.

RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

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whiterock said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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fubar said:

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Give us all a break. You'll vote for whatever candidate the Republicans nominate.

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Ummmmm..............Yes

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And in the realm of possibilities, a Trump/Desantis ticket remains near, if not at the top of the list of likely outcomes

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Always extremely unlikely..........now not a chance in the world .

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If Trump wins, it's almost guaranteed.

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Mark my words, DeSantis will not put himself as #2 to Trump as VP. He will wait from outside for 28. DepSantis does not view himself or his position today as subordinate to Trump, he believes they are equal or DeSantis is in a higher position.

What Whiterock is describing is not what I am seeing or hearing from the political machine in Florida. The lobbyist and campaign mangers I am talking to see extreme Trump fatigue and disgust, they are also seeing DeSantis as being seen as a true champion of freedom and the family. Just talked to several in Tallahassee yesterday.

Personally, I do not think that will be an issue because I do not believe that Trump gets nomination. I am not sure Trump won't have been prosecuted and convicted first, especially if any of these non-DOJ cases stick. There are about 9 of them active .

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That in bold is exactly what you should hear. Among the top priorities for Team DeSantis is to convince every single GOP voter that he will not lend his talents to anything other than top of the ticket, because they cannot allow the obvious (that a Trump/DeSantis ticket is the best of all worlds) to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. This is not a calculation unique to RDS. Team Cruz had to fight it about a seat on the Supreme Court. Every serious candidate has to squelch such distractions, which opponents spray about like machine gun fire in a primary campaign to dampen support for others. It has to be "My way or the highway" every day in a POTUS campaign.....

Given recent developments, it's pretty clear DeSantis has a very good, at least even chance of winning the nomination. BUT. If he falls short and Trump (or anyone else) pulls out a win, all that stuff in bold will go out the window as fast as the mistress panties when the wife comes home. It will not be about any obligation to the people of FL or people of America. It will be about what is the best path forward for Ron DeSantis to become POTUS in 2028. And the answer to that question is blazing obvious. He will accept the VP nomination if offered. But until we have a nominee, Team RDS will shoot any messenger who even faintly suggests it as a possibility.

At the moment, I cannot think of a person with aspiration to be POTUS ever turning down a VP offer. it's the catbird seat to be the next POTUS.

Canada2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Trump voters are worried that Desantis will be a neocon or quasi populist.
But here's the deal with Trump: he ran on drain the swamp...but he didn't deliver.

So if Desantis doesn't deliver, you get the same thing but without all the nonsense, media insanity and Trump being a dick.

The media has exhausted their outrage on Trump and it won't stick with Desantis. They will absolutely try, but it won't work.

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By any reasonable measure DeSantis has been an effective governor for the people of Florida.

Suspect the vast majority of Republicans will give him every opportunity to bring a similar level of effectiveness to the White House.

The media will give DeSantis the same treatment they gave Mitt Romney.....or worse.

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yep. looking for the ironclad candidate is a fools errand.

whiterock said:

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RMF5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

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whiterock said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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fubar said:

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Give us all a break. You'll vote for whatever candidate the Republicans nominate.

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Ummmmm..............Yes

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And in the realm of possibilities, a Trump/Desantis ticket remains near, if not at the top of the list of likely outcomes

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Always extremely unlikely..........now not a chance in the world .

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If Trump wins, it's almost guaranteed.

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Mark my words, DeSantis will not put himself as #2 to Trump as VP. He will wait from outside for 28. DepSantis does not view himself or his position today as subordinate to Trump, he believes they are equal or DeSantis is in a higher position.

What Whiterock is describing is not what I am seeing or hearing from the political machine in Florida. The lobbyist and campaign mangers I am talking to see extreme Trump fatigue and disgust, they are also seeing DeSantis as being seen as a true champion of freedom and the family. Just talked to several in Tallahassee yesterday.

Personally, I do not think that will be an issue because I do not believe that Trump gets nomination. I am not sure Trump won't have been prosecuted and convicted first, especially if any of these non-DOJ cases stick. There are about 9 of them active .

---

That in bold is exactly what you should hear. Among the top priorities for Team DeSantis is to convince every single GOP voter that he will not lend his talents to anything other than top of the ticket, because they cannot allow the obvious (that a Trump/DeSantis ticket is the best of all worlds) to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. This is not a calculation unique to RDS. Team Cruz had to fight it about a seat on the Supreme Court. Every serious candidate has to squelch such distractions, which opponents spray about like machine gun fire in a primary campaign to dampen support for others. It has to be "My way or the highway" every day in a POTUS campaign.....

Given recent developments, it's pretty clear DeSantis has a very good, at least even chance of winning the nomination. BUT. If he falls short and Trump (or anyone else) pulls out a win, all that stuff in bold will go out the window as fast as the mistress panties when the wife comes home. It will not be about any obligation to the people of FL or people of America. It will be about what is the best path forward for Ron DeSantis to become POTUS in 2028. And the answer to that question is blazing obvious. He will accept the VP nomination if offered. But until we have a nominee, Team RDS will shoot any messenger who even faintly suggests it as a possibility.

At the moment, I cannot think of a person with aspiration to be POTUS ever turning down a VP offer. it's the catbird seat to be the next POTUS.

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He will not, he will take the Reagan route... Remember, Reagan had no interest in being someone's VP. DeSantis does not have the personality to be a VP, especially under Trump. He will view that as a negative, especially after what happened to Pence as Trump's VP. Pence is less of a viable candidate now than he was before and he did the right thing by certifying.

You are trying to apply normal politics to an abnormal situation and an abnormal Presidential candidate in Trump. DeSantis and most in FL do not see Trump as a positive.

whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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I do think Trump will run as an independent if he does not get the nomination, and at this point I do not think he does. Trump has shown he is nothing but about himself and could care less about the Republican Party. He's pathetically delusional about his popularity, and he will not take no for an answer.

I would still hold my nose and vote for Trump against the authoritarians, but I hope it does not come to that.

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Stuart Stevens said something like this last night: Desantis would be nuts to jump into the race at this point. In spite of the recent Texas poll (since when are we taking Texas polls seriously?) it would be an extremely difficult ugly, bloody campaign to win the nomination against Trump. Better he stays in the wings, wait for Trump to collapse, where he will be the first option if that happens. Whether Trump wins the nomination, wins the Presidency, or loses, Desantis would be a stronger candidate in 2028 with no incumbent to run against. He turns 50 in 28.

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Correct up until that last two sentences. He will be weaker, not stronger in 2028 in all respects, and he will indeed have to run against an incumbent in 2028, either a sitting Republican VP or a sitting Dem POTUS.

He will make the push to get on the 2024 ticket somewhere. The only reason that might dissuade him is the health of his wife.

One cannot run for nomination in a party, lose, and easily step out to run third party. There are filing deadlines to get on the general Election ballot. Given Trumps money and support within the party, he is not likely to be an early departure. He will take it to the end. So the scenario proposed would be a LOT easier said than done.

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So, your position is we are stuck with Trump?

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That was my position at breakfast Tuesday last. Had we capture the Senate, it'd still be strong advantage Trump. Results have opened the door for DeSantis. the soft MAGA is on the fence, looking for a landing spot. So I'd rate it 50-50. I can't shake the fear that it is shaping up to be a classic "grassroots vs. establishment" race. No question that the donor class wants to move on and will line up behind DeSantis. Also no indication that the blue collar base is ready to do so.

So we watch and wait. Long time to go. I'd expect little to happen until the Walker race resolves. We'll see desultory artillery fire kick up again, no matter the outcome. Then it'll quiet down until the next Congress starts driving the narrative.

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And you clearly believe Trump to be a strong 2024 candidate. Assuming he's not in jail or dead, what makes you think he can win? What do you place his percentage of winning at?

whiterock said:

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Canada2017 said:

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whiterock said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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fubar said:

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Give us all a break. You'll vote for whatever candidate the Republicans nominate.

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Ummmmm..............Yes

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And in the realm of possibilities, a Trump/Desantis ticket remains near, if not at the top of the list of likely outcomes

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Always extremely unlikely..........now not a chance in the world .

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If Trump wins, it's almost guaranteed.

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I suspect DeSantis realizes how toxic Trump is. Not sure he would want to hitch himself to an anvil who is going to get his ass kicked (again) in the general election.

I think you severely overestimate Trump's popularity outside the base. And as another pointed out, I also think you overlook how toxic and unhinged he has become.

And as pointed out previously, your track record at predicting things ain't so good.

whiterock said:

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xxx yyy said:

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whiterock said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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I do think Trump will run as an independent if he does not get the nomination, and at this point I do not think he does. Trump has shown he is nothing but about himself and could care less about the Republican Party. He's pathetically delusional about his popularity, and he will not take no for an answer.

I would still hold my nose and vote for Trump against the authoritarians, but I hope it does not come to that.

---

Stuart Stevens said something like this last night: Desantis would be nuts to jump into the race at this point. In spite of the recent Texas poll (since when are we taking Texas polls seriously?) it would be an extremely difficult ugly, bloody campaign to win the nomination against Trump. Better he stays in the wings, wait for Trump to collapse, where he will be the first option if that happens. Whether Trump wins the nomination, wins the Presidency, or loses, Desantis would be a stronger candidate in 2028 with no incumbent to run against. He turns 50 in 28.

---

Correct up until that last two sentences. He will be weaker, not stronger in 2028 in all respects, and he will indeed have to run against an incumbent in 2028, either a sitting Republican VP or a sitting Dem POTUS.

He will make the push to get on the 2024 ticket somewhere. The only reason that might dissuade him is the health of his wife.

One cannot run for nomination in a party, lose, and easily step out to run third party. There are filing deadlines to get on the general Election ballot. Given Trumps money and support within the party, he is not likely to be an early departure. He will take it to the end. So the scenario proposed would be a LOT easier said than done.

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The utterly crazy thing is... if Trump looks like he will win the nomination, there will be pressure on Biden to run as well. Hopefully, toward the middle of next year, we should start getting quality polling (not so much from Trafalgar, did any of their predictions hold up?) in the key states. Leading up to 2020, Biden was the only Dem who consistently polled even or above DJT in Pennsylvania, Wisc., Michigan--key states Dems absolutely have to have. Republicans could take 1 -2 of the three and win. With that, I don't see the possibility of an incumbent in the race in 28, assuming Trump stays in the race. You mention an incumbent Republican VP. Are you thinking Trump would be impeached on the third try? Not likely as you will still need 15-18 Republican Senators to convict. VPs running to replace a 2 term President in their own party do not do well, historically. Desantis should stay out of the VP role as it would be 4 years of Hell as Trump's VP.

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Yes, it would. But he will bear the pain because it puts him in the best position to win in 2028.

That's assuming he doesn't win the 2024 nomination, which he very well might.

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If Trump miraculously wins in 2024, and DeSantis is his running mate, what makes you think after a brutal 4 years that puts DeSantis in the best position to win the presidency in 2028? How have the members of Trump's admin fared since 2020? Most of them are looked on as pariahs who will never hold office again.

Again, you just can't seem to fathom the amount of toxicity that Americans associate with Trump. He taints everyone he touches.

Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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xxx yyy said:

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whiterock said:

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xxx yyy said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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I do think Trump will run as an independent if he does not get the nomination, and at this point I do not think he does. Trump has shown he is nothing but about himself and could care less about the Republican Party. He's pathetically delusional about his popularity, and he will not take no for an answer.

I would still hold my nose and vote for Trump against the authoritarians, but I hope it does not come to that.

---

Stuart Stevens said something like this last night: Desantis would be nuts to jump into the race at this point. In spite of the recent Texas poll (since when are we taking Texas polls seriously?) it would be an extremely difficult ugly, bloody campaign to win the nomination against Trump. Better he stays in the wings, wait for Trump to collapse, where he will be the first option if that happens. Whether Trump wins the nomination, wins the Presidency, or loses, Desantis would be a stronger candidate in 2028 with no incumbent to run against. He turns 50 in 28.

---

Correct up until that last two sentences. He will be weaker, not stronger in 2028 in all respects, and he will indeed have to run against an incumbent in 2028, either a sitting Republican VP or a sitting Dem POTUS.

He will make the push to get on the 2024 ticket somewhere. The only reason that might dissuade him is the health of his wife.

One cannot run for nomination in a party, lose, and easily step out to run third party. There are filing deadlines to get on the general Election ballot. Given Trumps money and support within the party, he is not likely to be an early departure. He will take it to the end. So the scenario proposed would be a LOT easier said than done.

---

The utterly crazy thing is... if Trump looks like he will win the nomination, there will be pressure on Biden to run as well. Hopefully, toward the middle of next year, we should start getting quality polling (not so much from Trafalgar, did any of their predictions hold up?) in the key states. Leading up to 2020, Biden was the only Dem who consistently polled even or above DJT in Pennsylvania, Wisc., Michigan--key states Dems absolutely have to have. Republicans could take 1 -2 of the three and win. With that, I don't see the possibility of an incumbent in the race in 28, assuming Trump stays in the race. You mention an incumbent Republican VP. Are you thinking Trump would be impeached on the third try? Not likely as you will still need 15-18 Republican Senators to convict. VPs running to replace a 2 term President in their own party do not do well, historically. Desantis should stay out of the VP role as it would be 4 years of Hell as Trump's VP.

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Yes, it would. But he will bear the pain because it puts him in the best position to win in 2028.

That's assuming he doesn't win the 2024 nomination, which he very well might.

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If Trump miraculously wins in 2024, and DeSantis is his running mate, what makes you think after a brutal 4 years that puts DeSantis in the best position to win the presidency in 2028? How have the members of Trump's admin fared since 2020? Most of them are looked on as pariahs who will never hold office again.

Again, you just can't seem to fathom the amount of toxicity that Americans associate with Trump. He taints everyone he touches.

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I cannot see Trump getting through the Primary season, debates, and media buzzsaw without self-destructing. The fact his daughter and Kushner are staying away should tell you something is not right.

Osodecentx said:

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National review

No.
To paraphrase Voltaire after he attended an orgy, once was an experiment, twice would be perverse.
A bruised Donald Trump announced a new presidential bid on Tuesday night, an invitation to double down on the outrages and failures of the last several years that Republicans should reject without hesitation or doubt.
To his credit, Trump killed off the Clinton dynasty in 2016, nominated and got confirmed three constitutionalist justices, reformed taxes, pushed deregulation, got control of the border, significantly degraded ISIS in Syria and Iraq, and cinched normalization deals between Israel and the Gulf states, among other things. These are achievements that even his conservative doubters and critics including NR can acknowledge and applaud.
That said, the Trump administration was chaotic even on its best days because of his erratic nature and lack of seriousness. He often acted as if he were a commentator on his own presidency, and issued orders on Twitter and in other off-the-cuff statements that were ignored. He repeatedly had to be talked out of disastrous ideas by his advisers and Republican elected officials. He turned on cabinet officials and aides on a dime. Trump had a limited understanding of our constitutional system, and at the end of the day, little respect for it. His inability to approximate the conduct that the public expects of a president undermined him from beginning to end.
The latter factor played an outsized role in his narrow defeat to a feeble Joe Biden in 2020 in what was a winnable race. Of course, unable to cope with the humiliation of the loss, he pursued a shameful attempt to overturn the result of the election. He didn't come close to succeeding, but it wasn't for lack of trying. The episode ended with Trump, in a grotesque abuse of his powers, trying to bully Vice President Pence into unilaterally delaying or changing the count of electoral votes on January 6 and with an inflamed pro-Trump mob storming the Capitol while the president gave no indication that he particularly minded.
In the midst of this, he threw away two Georgia Senate seats in a fit of pique over Governor Brian Kemp and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger refusing to bend to his will. The resulting loss of Senate control allowed Biden to get trillions of dollars in spending that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise and confirm large numbers of progressive judges.
Since then, Trump has maintained his grip on the party and done all he can to force it to accept his delusions and lies about the 2020 election boosting conspiracy theorists and fanatics and targeting for defeat, with considerable success, anyone pushing back too hard against him or his obsessions.
Trump's success in imposing his fixations and candidate choices on the GOP played a large role in the GOP debacle in the midterms. This political backdrop raises the possibility that his low-energy announcement speech may be a damp squib.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/11/no/

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That Georgia **** up, that was big

At least we have a divided Congress.

Re: Trump as a third party candidate.

Yes, ballot access is a *****, especially in the short time after the primary.

But there are a few third parties that will have ballot access in most states. Nominating Trump would significantly raise their profile and fundraising. There is a really good chance Trump will be on your ballot.

Somewhere.

Prosecution and investigation of Trump is getting old. He didn't cause or tell people to go into the Capital on Jan 6 and doesn't appear to have taken any classified documents from the. white house. Sorry but this is pure politics and Rhino Republicans are partially to blame. Crap crap crap.

chriscbear said:

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Prosecution and investigation of Trump is getting old. He didn't cause or tell people to go into the Capital on Jan 6 and doesn't appear to have taken any classified documents from the. white house. Sorry but this is pure politics and Rhino Republicans are partially to blame. Crap crap crap.

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What does the ""h" in Rhino stand for?