ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
That title is reserved for the goddess of the Egyptian religion that was a curse upon the Israelites in the times of jeremiah and before.

Jeremiah 44:16-19 NIV
[16] "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord! [17] We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. [18] But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." [19] The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her."

Calling an honorable woman like Mary the "Queen of Heaven" is one of the most dishonorable things anyone could do. She was an honorable woman and should not be worshipped as a pagan goddess in thesame ways of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and Roman Catholics.

---

Pffft. Nah

Some here have said the devil defied physics and created this and converted an entire continent to Catholicism. If you study, maybe youll have the same conversion experience of the 10s of millions she converted.

https://guadalupeshrine.org/our-lady-of-guadalupe-shrine/

---

Oh yes, I'm so convinced that the God of the Bible who always commanded His followers to worship & honor Him alone... would send a woman to the earth to demand His followers to build a shrine in her honor.

The fact that you believe this nonsense is just really really sad.

---

If you look at the link he provided, there is no mention of Jesus at all. Only that the "miraculous" image was of a pregnant Mary, meaning that Jesus wasn't even in the picture yet. That's evil in of itself right there. How anyone who calls themself a "Christian" can't easilty discern something so obviously evil like this is quite perplexing.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Johnny Bear said:

---

I respect the Catholic Church and their brand of Christianity. Possibly some of this comes from not being raised as a Catholic and never being a Catholic, but having said that, I will never understand the belief in a segregated special group of Christians defined as "Saints" that are also worthy of worship and being prayed to or through. Certainly there are historically people worthy of being revered and respected for their faith and their related works (obviously Mary the Mother of Christ is one of them), but taking it to the point of virtual worship isn't Biblical and borders on idolatry.

---

Not a Catholic but this is my understanding

the siants arent worshiped, they are considered a known pathway to whom God/Jesus/the holy spirit worked through during their life on earth. By praying to them, people are asking the saints to pray with them much like you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you when the need arises.

Saints are considered to be able to relay and ampliphy your prayers as somebody who stands closer to God/Jesus than the average human.

---

I've heard the same explanation and am married into a Catholic family. My response to this would be, why was the curtain in the temple torn from top to bottom and by whom was it torn?

---

Catholic tradition isnit was sewn by Mary as a child as she had pledged her life to chastity which is why shes ever Virgin and Joseph never slept with her and likely was much older and a widower and Jesus has no brothers or sisters as an only child

---

Another extra biblical Catholic belief found nowhere in scripture.

I'm seeing a pattern here..

---

Fascinating how you seem to be ignore the exact words in the Bible. We see a pattern here.

---

Which exact words are those? Cite them.

Good luck!

---

It starts wirh the word tradition. Look it up.

No luck needed. Just pure old country genius and lack of stubborness to read and learn and be humbled to the words of our Lord.

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
That title is reserved for the goddess of the Egyptian religion that was a curse upon the Israelites in the times of jeremiah and before.

Jeremiah 44:16-19 NIV
[16] "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord! [17] We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. [18] But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." [19] The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her."

Calling an honorable woman like Mary the "Queen of Heaven" is one of the most dishonorable things anyone could do. She was an honorable woman and should not be worshipped as a pagan goddess in thesame ways of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and Roman Catholics.

---

Pffft. Nah

Some here have said the devil defied physics and created this and converted an entire continent to Catholicism. If you study, maybe youll have the same conversion experience of the 10s of millions she converted.

https://guadalupeshrine.org/our-lady-of-guadalupe-shrine/

---

Oh yes, I'm so convinced that the God of the Bible who always commanded His followers to worship & honor Him alone... would send a woman to the earth to demand His followers to build a shrine in her honor.

The fact that you believe this nonsense is just really really sad.

---

"A woman". YIKES!!!!!!!! Wow

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
That title is reserved for the goddess of the Egyptian religion that was a curse upon the Israelites in the times of jeremiah and before.

Jeremiah 44:16-19 NIV
[16] "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord! [17] We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. [18] But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." [19] The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her."

Calling an honorable woman like Mary the "Queen of Heaven" is one of the most dishonorable things anyone could do. She was an honorable woman and should not be worshipped as a pagan goddess in thesame ways of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and Roman Catholics.

---

Pffft. Nah

Some here have said the devil defied physics and created this and converted an entire continent to Catholicism. If you study, maybe youll have the same conversion experience of the 10s of millions she converted.

https://guadalupeshrine.org/our-lady-of-guadalupe-shrine/

---

Oh yes, I'm so convinced that the God of the Bible who always commanded His followers to worship & honor Him alone... would send a woman to the earth to demand His followers to build a shrine in her honor.

The fact that you believe this nonsense is just really really sad.

---

"A woman". YIKES!!!!!!!! Wow

---

Wow indeed.
You just exposed that you believe she is more than just an honored human.
Just admit the obvious truth... you Catholics are worshipping Mary.
There is no other reason to sing songs to her, pray to her, build shrines to her,... it's just pure idolatry.
The RC worship of Mary is just the latest version of the Queen of Heaven pagan religion that has deceived God's people for thousands of years.

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
That title is reserved for the goddess of the Egyptian religion that was a curse upon the Israelites in the times of jeremiah and before.

Jeremiah 44:16-19 NIV
[16] "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord! [17] We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. [18] But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." [19] The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her."

Calling an honorable woman like Mary the "Queen of Heaven" is one of the most dishonorable things anyone could do. She was an honorable woman and should not be worshipped as a pagan goddess in thesame ways of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and Roman Catholics.

---

Pffft. Nah

Some here have said the devil defied physics and created this and converted an entire continent to Catholicism. If you study, maybe youll have the same conversion experience of the 10s of millions she converted.

https://guadalupeshrine.org/our-lady-of-guadalupe-shrine/

---

Oh yes, I'm so convinced that the God of the Bible who always commanded His followers to worship & honor Him alone... would send a woman to the earth to demand His followers to build a shrine in her honor.

The fact that you believe this nonsense is just really really sad.

---

"A woman". YIKES!!!!!!!! Wow

---

Wow indeed.
You just exposed that you believe she is more than just an honored human.
Just admit the obvious truth... you Catholics are worshipping Mary.
There is no other reason to sing songs to her, pray to her, build shrines to her,... it's just pure idolatry.
The RC worship of Mary is just the latest version of the Queen of Heaven pagan religion that has deceived God's people for thousands of years.

---

I never understood why it bothers you guys so much.

Catholics say we don't. You don't take us at our word as the ones actually going to the Church services, but you know more and tell us what we really believe. Fine, believe what you want.

I have lived in the Bible Belt for many years, had to do FCA and do public meetings at the Baptist Churches (which in Florida are as commercial as you get, but that is ok), it is amazing to me how many times the Southern Baptist have fallen with other woman, money and drugs. And admit it crying, over and over. You all believe that they are forgiven, even when they continue to do it. That is acceptable. But, honor Jesus's Mother and damn Catholics are going to HELL!!!!!

To each his own. Oh, wait. We Catholics believe that, you Protestants believe it is your job to tell us what we believe and it is wrong.

Come on Tarp, it is time for you to pull out Catechism versus, Fulton Sheen speeches and every other document you can find since us Catholics telling you we don't view Mary as equal to God is enough.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Johnny Bear said:

---

I respect the Catholic Church and their brand of Christianity. Possibly some of this comes from not being raised as a Catholic and never being a Catholic, but having said that, I will never understand the belief in a segregated special group of Christians defined as "Saints" that are also worthy of worship and being prayed to or through. Certainly there are historically people worthy of being revered and respected for their faith and their related works (obviously Mary the Mother of Christ is one of them), but taking it to the point of virtual worship isn't Biblical and borders on idolatry.

---

Not a Catholic but this is my understanding

the siants arent worshiped, they are considered a known pathway to whom God/Jesus/the holy spirit worked through during their life on earth. By praying to them, people are asking the saints to pray with them much like you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you when the need arises.

Saints are considered to be able to relay and ampliphy your prayers as somebody who stands closer to God/Jesus than the average human.

---

I've heard the same explanation and am married into a Catholic family. My response to this would be, why was the curtain in the temple torn from top to bottom and by whom was it torn?

---

Catholic tradition isnit was sewn by Mary as a child as she had pledged her life to chastity which is why shes ever Virgin and Joseph never slept with her and likely was much older and a widower and Jesus has no brothers or sisters as an only child

---

Another extra biblical Catholic belief found nowhere in scripture.

I'm seeing a pattern here..

---

Fascinating how you seem to be ignore the exact words in the Bible. We see a pattern here.

---

Which exact words are those? Cite them.

Good luck!

---

It starts wirh the word tradition. Look it up.

No luck needed. Just pure old country genius and lack of stubborness to read and learn and be humbled to the words of our Lord.

---

Now you've once again contradicted yourself. You said: "Fascinating how you seem to be ignore the exact words in the Bible."

But then in the very next post, you instead say your position is based on "tradition."

Which is it, freedom? It is the "exact words in the Bible" or "tradition"?

It would be a refreshing change if you were actually humbled by the word of the Lord, since you can't seem to cite them.

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
That title is reserved for the goddess of the Egyptian religion that was a curse upon the Israelites in the times of jeremiah and before.

Jeremiah 44:16-19 NIV
[16] "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord! [17] We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. [18] But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." [19] The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her."

Calling an honorable woman like Mary the "Queen of Heaven" is one of the most dishonorable things anyone could do. She was an honorable woman and should not be worshipped as a pagan goddess in thesame ways of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and Roman Catholics.

---

Pffft. Nah

Some here have said the devil defied physics and created this and converted an entire continent to Catholicism. If you study, maybe youll have the same conversion experience of the 10s of millions she converted.

https://guadalupeshrine.org/our-lady-of-guadalupe-shrine/

---

Oh yes, I'm so convinced that the God of the Bible who always commanded His followers to worship & honor Him alone... would send a woman to the earth to demand His followers to build a shrine in her honor.

The fact that you believe this nonsense is just really really sad.

---

"A woman". YIKES!!!!!!!! Wow

---

Wow indeed.
You just exposed that you believe she is more than just an honored human.
Just admit the obvious truth... you Catholics are worshipping Mary.
There is no other reason to sing songs to her, pray to her, build shrines to her,... it's just pure idolatry.
The RC worship of Mary is just the latest version of the Queen of Heaven pagan religion that has deceived God's people for thousands of years.

---

I never understood why it bothers you guys so much.

Catholics say we don't. You don't take us at our word as the ones actually going to the Church services, but you know more and tell us what we really believe. Fine, believe what you want.

I have lived in the Bible Belt for many years, had to do FCA and do public meetings at the Baptist Churches (which in Florida are as commercial as you get, but that is ok), it is amazing to me how many times the Southern Baptist have fallen with other woman, money and drugs. And admit it crying, over and over. You all believe that they are forgiven, even when they continue to do it. That is acceptable. But, honor Jesus's Mother and damn Catholics are going to HELL!!!!!

To each his own. Oh, wait. We Catholics believe that, you Protestants believe it is your job to tell us what we believe and it is wrong.

Come on Tarp, it is time for you to pull out Catechism versus, Fulton Sheen speeches and every other document you can find since us Catholics telling you we don't view Mary as equal to God is enough.

---

You don't understand why heresy would bother some Christians?

Huh.

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
That title is reserved for the goddess of the Egyptian religion that was a curse upon the Israelites in the times of jeremiah and before.

Jeremiah 44:16-19 NIV
[16] "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord! [17] We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. [18] But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." [19] The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her."

Calling an honorable woman like Mary the "Queen of Heaven" is one of the most dishonorable things anyone could do. She was an honorable woman and should not be worshipped as a pagan goddess in thesame ways of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and Roman Catholics.

---

Pffft. Nah

Some here have said the devil defied physics and created this and converted an entire continent to Catholicism. If you study, maybe youll have the same conversion experience of the 10s of millions she converted.

https://guadalupeshrine.org/our-lady-of-guadalupe-shrine/

---

Oh yes, I'm so convinced that the God of the Bible who always commanded His followers to worship & honor Him alone... would send a woman to the earth to demand His followers to build a shrine in her honor.

The fact that you believe this nonsense is just really really sad.

---

"A woman". YIKES!!!!!!!! Wow

---

Wow indeed.
You just exposed that you believe she is more than just an honored human.
Just admit the obvious truth... you Catholics are worshipping Mary.
There is no other reason to sing songs to her, pray to her, build shrines to her,... it's just pure idolatry.
The RC worship of Mary is just the latest version of the Queen of Heaven pagan religion that has deceived God's people for thousands of years.

---

I never understood why it bothers you guys so much.

Catholics say we don't. You don't take us at our word as the ones actually going to the Church services, but you know more and tell us what we really believe. Fine, believe what you want.

I have lived in the Bible Belt for many years, had to do FCA and do public meetings at the Baptist Churches (which in Florida are as commercial as you get, but that is ok), it is amazing to me how many times the Southern Baptist have fallen with other woman, money and drugs. And admit it crying, over and over. You all believe that they are forgiven, even when they continue to do it. That is acceptable. But, honor Jesus's Mother and damn Catholics are going to HELL!!!!!

To each his own. Oh, wait. We Catholics believe that, you Protestants believe it is your job to tell us what we believe and it is wrong.

Come on Tarp, it is time for you to pull out Catechism versus, Fulton Sheen speeches and every other document you can find since us Catholics telling you we don't view Mary as equal to God is enough.

---

You don't understand why heresy would bother some Christians?

Huh.

---

We don't see a heresy. You do.

You don't agree with the Catholic Churches view of Mary. Noted...

Not sure if you will agree, but I would like to add that I don't recall Jesus Christ ever forcing anyone to be a Christian nor to accept another's beliefs, whatever they were. Just seems to me that the critical and at times downright mean tone some of us use does seem to parallel our love for fellow believers.

Baptists believe differently than other Baptists, and Methodists also, and I bet Catholics do as well. Last time I checked, which was today, the dude that does the judging ain't us. Additionally, he is able to forgive us when we act like we are, and many of us have and some of us still do.

Trying to change an adult's core belief system is extremely difficult. Religion is a core belief and often directly affects other core beliefs. When change does occur, it is because the adult has/is willing to honestly listen and process the information. Debate and dialogue are essential, but must be done in a respectful, non judgmental and non threatening manner and environment. Furthermore, it normally takes time, as almost any single change/shift in a core belief tends to affect other core beliefs.

When dealing with someone with a narcissistic personality disorder, especially with authoritarian tendencies and what they believe is the interpretation of a religion and its practices and nuances, it is often best to avoid them. However, for some it can also be entertaining, although rarely constructive and rarely done in love.

BUDOS said:

---

Not sure if you will agree, but I would like to add that I don't recall Jesus Christ ever forcing anyone to be a Christian nor to accept another's beliefs, whatever they were. Just seems to me that the critical and at times downright mean tone some of us use does seem to parallel our love for fellow believers.

Baptists believe differently than other Baptists, and Methodists also, and I bet Catholics do as well. Last time I checked, which was today, the dude that does the judging ain't us. Additionally, he is able to forgive us when we act like we are, and many of us have and some of us still do.

Trying to change an adult's core belief system is extremely difficult. Religion is a core belief and often directly affects other core beliefs. When change does occur, it is because the adult has/is willing to honestly listen and process the information. Debate and dialogue are essential, but must be done in a respectful, non judgmental and non threatening manner and environment. Furthermore, it normally takes time, as almost any single change/shift in a core belief tends to affect other core beliefs.

When dealing with someone with a narcissistic personality disorder, especially with authoritarian tendencies and what they believe is the interpretation of a religion and its practices and nuances, it is often best to avoid them. However, for some it can also be entertaining, although rarely constructive and rarely done in love.

---

A true question is fine. That is how we come to understand each other. Being open to a discussion.

The problem with religion, politics and too often college football is that one side believes they are right AND their identity is tied up in those believes. So, if someone has an opposing view they HAVE to be wrong or evil, otherwise people can't reconcile how something they believe in so whole-heartily may not be the whole answer.

The Trump stuff is right up there with the religion stuff. Whole identities tied up in their believes. They cannot afford for others not to agree, it is who they are.

I have been to enough of the world to get that there is ALWAYS an opposing view and the answer is usually in the middle. Funny, I read the Gospels, not Paul, and I am good.

BUDOS said:

---

Not sure if you will agree, but I would like to add that I don't recall Jesus Christ ever forcing anyone to be a Christian nor to accept another's beliefs, whatever they were. Just seems to me that the critical and at times downright mean tone some of us use does seem to parallel our love for fellow believers.

Baptists believe differently than other Baptists, and Methodists also, and I bet Catholics do as well. Last time I checked, which was today, the dude that does the judging ain't us. Additionally, he is able to forgive us when we act like we are, and many of us have and some of us still do.

Trying to change an adult's core belief system is extremely difficult. Religion is a core belief and often directly affects other core beliefs. When change does occur, it is because the adult has/is willing to honestly listen and process the information. Debate and dialogue are essential, but must be done in a respectful, non judgmental and non threatening manner and environment. Furthermore, it normally takes time, as almost any single change/shift in a core belief tends to affect other core beliefs.

When dealing with someone with a narcissistic personality disorder, especially with authoritarian tendencies and what they believe is the interpretation of a religion and its practices and nuances, it is often best to avoid them. However, for some it can also be entertaining, although rarely constructive and rarely done in love.

---

I know what you mean. Jesus and Paul - man, were they threatening, authoritarian, narcissistic dudes.

I mean, when someone is walking off a cliff or sleeping in a burning building, the obvious "loving" and "Christian" thing to do is to tell them, "There, there, you're okay. Just ignore their warnings" like you just did.

Hey Tarp, if you're referring to such times as when Jesus spoke to and about the Pharisees for example you make a valid point.

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

BUDOS said:

---

Hey Tarp, if you're referring to such times as when Jesus spoke to and about the Pharisees for example you make a valid point.

---

Rrrright.... because telling people to be faithful to Jesus and not worship any other is sooooo Pharisee.

BUDOS said:

---

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am all for discussion. I may even agree that some take Mary-ism too far.

I for one was never into the novena to Mary and so on. But, it makes many women feel better. That is the area that doesn't get discussed. Many women want a female to talk to about things and Mary fills that role. I know my Grandmother and Mother said that. Only a Mother knows what I am feeling and the rosary brought her closer to God. I am sure Tarp and company will say they are in Hell. I don't think so, Mary was never put on the same level just an intermediary that could understand a women's feelings.

My wife was WELS Lutheran, women can't do anything. They have no vote, no say. Their role is to provide luncheons for funerals and decorate the Church, with the Pastor's approval. My wife is very interested in the role Mary Magdeline played, but we hear little about if the Bible is the only source.

Does any of this give a slam dunk on Mary, NO. Of course not. It is why Mary was important to two Catholic women and the rosary made them feel heard because religion is run by men.

FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
That title is reserved for the goddess of the Egyptian religion that was a curse upon the Israelites in the times of jeremiah and before.

Jeremiah 44:16-19 NIV
[16] "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord! [17] We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. [18] But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." [19] The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her."

Calling an honorable woman like Mary the "Queen of Heaven" is one of the most dishonorable things anyone could do. She was an honorable woman and should not be worshipped as a pagan goddess in thesame ways of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and Roman Catholics.

---

Pffft. Nah

Some here have said the devil defied physics and created this and converted an entire continent to Catholicism. If you study, maybe youll have the same conversion experience of the 10s of millions she converted.

https://guadalupeshrine.org/our-lady-of-guadalupe-shrine/

---

Oh yes, I'm so convinced that the God of the Bible who always commanded His followers to worship & honor Him alone... would send a woman to the earth to demand His followers to build a shrine in her honor.

The fact that you believe this nonsense is just really really sad.

---

"A woman". YIKES!!!!!!!! Wow

---

Wow indeed.
You just exposed that you believe she is more than just an honored human.
Just admit the obvious truth... you Catholics are worshipping Mary.
There is no other reason to sing songs to her, pray to her, build shrines to her,... it's just pure idolatry.
The RC worship of Mary is just the latest version of the Queen of Heaven pagan religion that has deceived God's people for thousands of years.

---

I never understood why it bothers you guys so much.

Catholics say we don't. You don't take us at our word as the ones actually going to the Church services, but you know more and tell us what we really believe. Fine, believe what you want.

I have lived in the Bible Belt for many years, had to do FCA and do public meetings at the Baptist Churches (which in Florida are as commercial as you get, but that is ok), it is amazing to me how many times the Southern Baptist have fallen with other woman, money and drugs. And admit it crying, over and over. You all believe that they are forgiven, even when they continue to do it. That is acceptable. But, honor Jesus's Mother and damn Catholics are going to HELL!!!!!

To each his own. Oh, wait. We Catholics believe that, you Protestants believe it is your job to tell us what we believe and it is wrong.

Come on Tarp, it is time for you to pull out Catechism versus, Fulton Sheen speeches and every other document you can find since us Catholics telling you we don't view Mary as equal to God is enough.

---

You don't understand why heresy would bother some Christians?

Huh.

---

We don't see a heresy. You do.

You don't agree with the Catholic Churches view of Mary. Noted...

---

That's my point. We see a heresy. And that's why it bothers us.

This isn't difficult.

Whatever dude.
Tarp,
I was attempting to find some common ground and indicate that were specific circumstances when Jesus was more direct and even appeared to give justification for his behavior.

Apparently your abrasive behavior is a behavioral reflex, although none was intended.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

4th and Inches said:

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Johnny Bear said:

---

I respect the Catholic Church and their brand of Christianity. Possibly some of this comes from not being raised as a Catholic and never being a Catholic, but having said that, I will never understand the belief in a segregated special group of Christians defined as "Saints" that are also worthy of worship and being prayed to or through. Certainly there are historically people worthy of being revered and respected for their faith and their related works (obviously Mary the Mother of Christ is one of them), but taking it to the point of virtual worship isn't Biblical and borders on idolatry.

---

Not a Catholic but this is my understanding

the siants arent worshiped, they are considered a known pathway to whom God/Jesus/the holy spirit worked through during their life on earth. By praying to them, people are asking the saints to pray with them much like you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you when the need arises.

Saints are considered to be able to relay and ampliphy your prayers as somebody who stands closer to God/Jesus than the average human.

---

I've heard the same explanation and am married into a Catholic family. My response to this would be, why was the curtain in the temple torn from top to bottom and by whom was it torn?

---

Catholic tradition isnit was sewn by Mary as a child as she had pledged her life to chastity which is why shes ever Virgin and Joseph never slept with her and likely was much older and a widower and Jesus has no brothers or sisters as an only child

---

Another extra biblical Catholic belief found nowhere in scripture.

I'm seeing a pattern here..

---

Fascinating how you seem to be ignore the exact words in the Bible. We see a pattern here.

---

Which exact words are those? Cite them.

Good luck!

---

It starts wirh the word tradition. Look it up.

No luck needed. Just pure old country genius and lack of stubborness to read and learn and be humbled to the words of our Lord.

---

Now you've once again contradicted yourself. You said: "Fascinating how you seem to be ignore the exact words in the Bible."

But then in the very next post, you instead say your position is based on "tradition."

Which is it, freedom? It is the "exact words in the Bible" or "tradition"?

It would be a refreshing change if you were actually humbled by the word of the Lord, since you can't seem to cite them.

---

Receipts

Post above. No gotcha. Just facts. Straight from the inspired text canonized by Catholics

FLBear5630 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am all for discussion. I may even agree that some take Mary-ism too far.

I for one was never into the novena to Mary and so on. But, it makes many women feel better. That is the area that doesn't get discussed. Many women want a female to talk to about things and Mary fills that role. I know my Grandmother and Mother said that. Only a Mother knows what I am feeling and the rosary brought her closer to God. I am sure Tarp and company will say they are in Hell. I don't think so, Mary was never put on the same level just an intermediary that could understand a women's feelings.

My wife was WELS Lutheran, women can't do anything. They have no vote, no say. Their role is to provide luncheons for funerals and decorate the Church, with the Pastor's approval. My wife is very interested in the role Mary Magdeline played, but we hear little about if the Bible is the only source.

Does any of this give a slam dunk on Mary, NO. Of course not. It is why Mary was important to two Catholic women and the rosary made them feel heard because religion is run by men.

---

Regarding your last comment, depending what you mean by "run by" men, that is of course also Biblical and part of the battle waging now in the Catholic church by the velvet mafia of which Pope Leo also supports unfortunately for him and those he confuses like Francis

50,000 of Iran’s 75,000 mosques have closed due to a significant decline in attendance.

Meanwhile, there’s a boom in people visiting Zoroastrian temples, the native religion of Iran!

pic.twitter.com/MGN4XXXPgp

— Dr. Maalouf ‏ (@realMaalouf) January 7, 2026

Of course democrats tryin build as many mosques as fast as possible in texas. Some people vote their own battles into power.

Interesting to my knowledge when Mary has spoken to us in the last century it has seemed mostly about Russia. Im not aware if any messages yet regarding the muslims but need to look more deeply into it.

One problem today (as is often true throughout history) is the hierarchy if the church is often not a witness to Christ but a slave to the world.

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am all for discussion. I may even agree that some take Mary-ism too far.

I for one was never into the novena to Mary and so on. But, it makes many women feel better. That is the area that doesn't get discussed. Many women want a female to talk to about things and Mary fills that role. I know my Grandmother and Mother said that. Only a Mother knows what I am feeling and the rosary brought her closer to God. I am sure Tarp and company will say they are in Hell. I don't think so, Mary was never put on the same level just an intermediary that could understand a women's feelings.

My wife was WELS Lutheran, women can't do anything. They have no vote, no say. Their role is to provide luncheons for funerals and decorate the Church, with the Pastor's approval. My wife is very interested in the role Mary Magdeline played, but we hear little about if the Bible is the only source.

Does any of this give a slam dunk on Mary, NO. Of course not. It is why Mary was important to two Catholic women and the rosary made them feel heard because religion is run by men.

---

Regarding your last comment, depending what you mean by "run by" men, that is of course also Biblical and part of the battle waging now in the Catholic church by the velvet mafia of which Pope Leo also supports unfortunately for him and those he confuses like Francis

---

The Bible was also written by men...

BUDOS said:

---

Whatever dude.
Tarp,
I was attempting to find some common ground and indicate that were specific circumstances when Jesus was more direct and even appeared to give justification for his behavior.

Apparently your abrasive behavior is a behavioral reflex, although none was intended.

---

Rrrriiight. I'm sure it had a lot more to do with you going to your typical "Pharisee" retort every time I call out errors. It would go right along with what you've already done here in this thread, calling it "threatening" and "authoritarian" to call out sheer and plainly obvious heresy and idolatry. Your modus operandi has been to attack those who attack false beliefs including your own, as a method of deflection from the important point at hand.

I don't apologize for what you perceive as "abrasive behavior". All I've done is make my points directly and pointedly against egregious error. Considering your tendency to be "abrasive" yourself in attacking those who are simply telling the truth, I consider that a good sign.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Johnny Bear said:

---

I respect the Catholic Church and their brand of Christianity. Possibly some of this comes from not being raised as a Catholic and never being a Catholic, but having said that, I will never understand the belief in a segregated special group of Christians defined as "Saints" that are also worthy of worship and being prayed to or through. Certainly there are historically people worthy of being revered and respected for their faith and their related works (obviously Mary the Mother of Christ is one of them), but taking it to the point of virtual worship isn't Biblical and borders on idolatry.

---

Not a Catholic but this is my understanding

the siants arent worshiped, they are considered a known pathway to whom God/Jesus/the holy spirit worked through during their life on earth. By praying to them, people are asking the saints to pray with them much like you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you when the need arises.

Saints are considered to be able to relay and ampliphy your prayers as somebody who stands closer to God/Jesus than the average human.

---

I've heard the same explanation and am married into a Catholic family. My response to this would be, why was the curtain in the temple torn from top to bottom and by whom was it torn?

---

Catholic tradition isnit was sewn by Mary as a child as she had pledged her life to chastity which is why shes ever Virgin and Joseph never slept with her and likely was much older and a widower and Jesus has no brothers or sisters as an only child

---

Another extra biblical Catholic belief found nowhere in scripture.

I'm seeing a pattern here..

---

Fascinating how you seem to be ignore the exact words in the Bible. We see a pattern here.

---

Which exact words are those? Cite them.

Good luck!

---

It starts wirh the word tradition. Look it up.

No luck needed. Just pure old country genius and lack of stubborness to read and learn and be humbled to the words of our Lord.

---

Now you've once again contradicted yourself. You said: "Fascinating how you seem to be ignore the exact words in the Bible."

But then in the very next post, you instead say your position is based on "tradition."

Which is it, freedom? It is the "exact words in the Bible" or "tradition"?

It would be a refreshing change if you were actually humbled by the word of the Lord, since you can't seem to cite them.

---

Receipts

Post above. No gotcha. Just facts. Straight from the inspired text canonized by Catholics

---

Just to be clear, you believe a verse in which Paul tells the Thessalonians to adhere to the traditions they've been taught is evidence that the "exact words of the Bible" state that "Mary as a child had pledged her life to chastity"? If so, remarkable. What scriptural support do you have for the position that the Thessalonian tradition was that "Mary as a child had pledged her life to chastity"?

Gotta say, I've seen numerous circular and absurd arguments made by your over the years, but this one takes the cake. Respectfully, this is truly ret@rded. By this logic, anything that one deems "tradition" is now scriptural. Incredible.

So utterly stupid and ridiculous. I think this is a "receipt" for your admission to the funny farm.

BUDOS said:

---

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am curious what kind of church you attend.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Johnny Bear said:

---

I respect the Catholic Church and their brand of Christianity. Possibly some of this comes from not being raised as a Catholic and never being a Catholic, but having said that, I will never understand the belief in a segregated special group of Christians defined as "Saints" that are also worthy of worship and being prayed to or through. Certainly there are historically people worthy of being revered and respected for their faith and their related works (obviously Mary the Mother of Christ is one of them), but taking it to the point of virtual worship isn't Biblical and borders on idolatry.

---

Not a Catholic but this is my understanding

the siants arent worshiped, they are considered a known pathway to whom God/Jesus/the holy spirit worked through during their life on earth. By praying to them, people are asking the saints to pray with them much like you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you when the need arises.

Saints are considered to be able to relay and ampliphy your prayers as somebody who stands closer to God/Jesus than the average human.

---

I've heard the same explanation and am married into a Catholic family. My response to this would be, why was the curtain in the temple torn from top to bottom and by whom was it torn?

---

Catholic tradition isnit was sewn by Mary as a child as she had pledged her life to chastity which is why shes ever Virgin and Joseph never slept with her and likely was much older and a widower and Jesus has no brothers or sisters as an only child

---

Another extra biblical Catholic belief found nowhere in scripture.

I'm seeing a pattern here..

---

Why doesnt Genesis mention god's first creations: dinosaurs?

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am all for discussion. I may even agree that some take Mary-ism too far.

I for one was never into the novena to Mary and so on. But, it makes many women feel better. That is the area that doesn't get discussed. Many women want a female to talk to about things and Mary fills that role. I know my Grandmother and Mother said that. Only a Mother knows what I am feeling and the rosary brought her closer to God. I am sure Tarp and company will say they are in Hell. I don't think so, Mary was never put on the same level just an intermediary that could understand a women's feelings.

My wife was WELS Lutheran, women can't do anything. They have no vote, no say. Their role is to provide luncheons for funerals and decorate the Church, with the Pastor's approval. My wife is very interested in the role Mary Magdeline played, but we hear little about if the Bible is the only source.

Does any of this give a slam dunk on Mary, NO. Of course not. It is why Mary was important to two Catholic women and the rosary made them feel heard because religion is run by men.

---

Regarding your last comment, depending what you mean by "run by" men, that is of course also Biblical and part of the battle waging now in the Catholic church by the velvet mafia of which Pope Leo also supports unfortunately for him and those he confuses like Francis

---

The Bible was also written by men...

---

True... but at least Catholicism and the Orthodox have ****ing badass aesthetics and conservative vibes.... there is a reason why those denominations are overtaking Protestantism. Bcs Protestantism is fake AND lame. Most Protestant churches have more Israeli flags than crosses.

The_barBEARian said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am all for discussion. I may even agree that some take Mary-ism too far.

I for one was never into the novena to Mary and so on. But, it makes many women feel better. That is the area that doesn't get discussed. Many women want a female to talk to about things and Mary fills that role. I know my Grandmother and Mother said that. Only a Mother knows what I am feeling and the rosary brought her closer to God. I am sure Tarp and company will say they are in Hell. I don't think so, Mary was never put on the same level just an intermediary that could understand a women's feelings.

My wife was WELS Lutheran, women can't do anything. They have no vote, no say. Their role is to provide luncheons for funerals and decorate the Church, with the Pastor's approval. My wife is very interested in the role Mary Magdeline played, but we hear little about if the Bible is the only source.

Does any of this give a slam dunk on Mary, NO. Of course not. It is why Mary was important to two Catholic women and the rosary made them feel heard because religion is run by men.

---

Regarding your last comment, depending what you mean by "run by" men, that is of course also Biblical and part of the battle waging now in the Catholic church by the velvet mafia of which Pope Leo also supports unfortunately for him and those he confuses like Francis

---

The Bible was also written by men...

---

True... but at least Catholicism and the Orthodox have ****ing badass aesthetics and conservative vibes.... there is a reason why those denominations are overtaking Protestantism. Bcs Protestantism is fake AND lame. Most Protestant churches have more Israeli flags than crosses.

---

As pointed out previously, Protestantism is not the monolithic group you've attempted to make it. Some of the denominations are as different from one another as they are from Orthodoxy/Catholicism. For instance, a reformed church, like the one I attend, is a hell of a lot closer to Orthodoxy than it is, say, to Presbyterians or Episcopals.

That said, the numbers don't bear out what you're saying. Protestant denominations, as a whole, outpace both Catholicism and Orthodoxy in growth. This is almost entirely attributable to the rise of non-denominational bible churches (the old school denoms are losing numbers), which are adding more converts than any of the Christian sects (and it's not even close).

LOL at the aesthetics argument, as if that should matter to anyone say, outside of Nick Fuentes. I've always found celibate priests in pointy hats and ornate gowns kind of gay, and fat bearded men who like to be called "His Imminence" silly. But whatever floats your boat.