BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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WHY is this question so difficult for you guys to answer?

Q: Is the message from the marian apparitions which command a church be built in her honor and to establish world-wide devotion to HER "Immaculate Heart" for the forgiveness of sins a message from God, or not?

Seems pretty easy for someone who claims to be a Christian who "loves Jesus" to answer this.

Folks, again.... what does it tell you when they can't/won't answer this? Shouldn't their views on Christianity not be trusted? Shouldn't then their church from which they are getting their views be doubted as being from God? I believe if you are true Christian, you know the answer.

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Was this the Virgin of Guadalupe or some other one?

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It's a combination of Guadalupe and Fatima. And actually, it doesn't even matter. Even if I completely made it up, the very fact that they can't answer the question is what's revealing.

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I was thinking it could have been either of those two stories.

It's sad for anyone to think that Almighty God would want His followers to build churches in honor of a human woman, and then to also pray prayers of thanks & praise to her. It's completely impossible to believe that such idolatry is OK with the God of the Bible.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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WHY is this question so difficult for you guys to answer?

Q: Is the message from the marian apparitions which command a church be built in her honor and to establish world-wide devotion to HER "Immaculate Heart" for the forgiveness of sins a message from God, or not?

Seems pretty easy for someone who claims to be a Christian who "loves Jesus" to answer this.

Folks, again.... what does it tell you when they can't/won't answer this? Shouldn't their views on Christianity not be trusted? Shouldn't then their church from which they are getting their views be doubted as being from God? I believe if you are true Christian, you know the answer.

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Such beliefs are obvious heresy and anti-Christian. Mary has nothing to do with salvation, is not divine, and was a sinner just like every other human who has ever lived except Jesus Christ. It directly contradicts fundamental Christian teachings from Christ Himself and all the other New Testament writers.

The only important question is if anyone, Catholic or otherwise, actually believes such nonsense. If they do, they are lost because they consider Jesus a liar and a fraud.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam Lowry: " I don't find these debates productive and don't want to get drawn in. That's not to say I don't learn from many of the posts here. But there's a kind of semantic barrier between the two sides that makes any mutual understanding extremely difficult."

I agree with Sam.

I like reading these debates, sometimes for insights into the topic and sometimes for insight into the posters. People often have an emotional investment in their own opinion, and do not like having to reconsider it in light of exposition and debate. And some simply carpet-bomb threads with repeated assertions lacking substance.

I fear almost all of us are guilty at one time or another of automatic emotional reactions, especially in matters of faith.

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What is your answer to my question?

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I answered you long ago on these points.

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I don't think you did. What I do remember is you always dodging questions like these. Sorry, if I'm going to call out the Roman Catholics for dodging the question, I'm gonna have to call you out too.

If you did answer such a question, then remind us: what was your answer?

It's a simple two or three letter answer.

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That snide and rude post from you is why I am not wasting my time with you after this post, BTD.

I answered you. Your response was abusive and unchristian. I have no doubt that if I repeated my answer, even explained it to you, your response would again be abusive and unchristian.

I am answerable to God, not a Pharisee like you.

I will continue to pray for you, but I shall not feed your sin.

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The funny part is that there are interesting theological arguments to be had about the apparitions, but he can't even get the facts right because he is blinded by his hatred of his fellow man and his faith seems to require him to define himself in opposition to something (in this case Catholicism).

Ignore is the best path.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Happy Solemnity of Saint Mary, Mother of God to all who celebrate.

What a beautiful homily

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Plane. Don't trust predictive text.

For clarity, are putting Mary on the same plain as Jesus Christ or, or you referring to the honor Christ placed in His Mother?

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historian said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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WHY is this question so difficult for you guys to answer?

Q: Is the message from the marian apparitions which command a church be built in her honor and to establish world-wide devotion to HER "Immaculate Heart" for the forgiveness of sins a message from God, or not?

Seems pretty easy for someone who claims to be a Christian who "loves Jesus" to answer this.

Folks, again.... what does it tell you when they can't/won't answer this? Shouldn't their views on Christianity not be trusted? Shouldn't then their church from which they are getting their views be doubted as being from God? I believe if you are true Christian, you know the answer.

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Such beliefs are obvious heresy and anti-Christian. Mary has nothing to do with salvation, is not divine, and was a dinner just like every other human who has ever lived except Jesus Christ. It directly contradicts fundamental Christian teachings from Christ Himself and all the other New Testament writers.

The only important question is if anyone, Catholic or otherwise, actually believes such nonsense. If they do, they are lost because they consider Jesus a liar and a fraud.

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She was a "dinner"? I'll bet you're right, they'll want to start eating her literal flesh too.

Thanks for the clear and unambiguous answer. Obviously I fully agree.

DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Sam Lowry: " I don't find these debates productive and don't want to get drawn in. That's not to say I don't learn from many of the posts here. But there's a kind of semantic barrier between the two sides that makes any mutual understanding extremely difficult."

I agree with Sam.

I like reading these debates, sometimes for insights into the topic and sometimes for insight into the posters. People often have an emotional investment in their own opinion, and do not like having to reconsider it in light of exposition and debate. And some simply carpet-bomb threads with repeated assertions lacking substance.

I fear almost all of us are guilty at one time or another of automatic emotional reactions, especially in matters of faith.

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What is your answer to my question?

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I answered you long ago on these points.

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I don't think you did. What I do remember is you always dodging questions like these. Sorry, if I'm going to call out the Roman Catholics for dodging the question, I'm gonna have to call you out too.

If you did answer such a question, then remind us: what was your answer?

It's a simple two or three letter answer.

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That snide and rude post from you is why I am not wasting my time with you after this post, BTD.

I answered you. Your response was abusive and unchristian. I have no doubt that if I repeated my answer, even explained it to you, your response would again be abusive and unchristian.

I am answerable to God, not a Pharisee like you.

I will continue to pray for you, but I shall not feed your sin.

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The funny part is that there are interesting theological arguments to be had about the apparitions, but he can't even get the facts right because he is blinded by his hatred of his fellow man and his faith seems to require him to define himself in opposition to something (in this case Catholicism).

Ignore is the best path.

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^^^ Folks, notice how the Roman Catholics and Orthodox won't answer the simple question, but instead they turn around and attack me personally, accusing me of being "abusive", "unchristian", a "Pharisee", and having "hate for my fellow man". Because I ask the question, and call out those who are lying or dodging?

This guy above (a Roman Catholic) says there are "interesting theological arguments" about the apparitions... but the question of whether or not the apparition's message is even from God to begin with is NOT interesting enough to address?


What does all this tell you?

Obviously a typo. Sinner

Original corrected

If Roman Catholics/Orthodox don't want to answer the question, it clearly means that they know there is something wrong with that message, that it can't be from God.

So then, the question is, WHY do you guys trust in the infallible authority of a church that promoted that message? Who are you fooling, but yourselves?

You're a brick wall arguing with itself.

Sam Lowry said:

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You're a brick wall arguing with itself.

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We should all be brick walls against this kind of egregious heresy and idolatry.

The fact that I'm arguing with myself is kinda the point - there's no one willing to argue. You guys can't/won't answer - the reason which is obvious to everyone reading this thread. And you're too stubborn or dull to take that to its logical conclusion.


Folks, what does it tell you that they STILL won't answer, and continue to lob personal attacks?

Sam Lowry said:

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You're a brick wall arguing with itself.

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Given the season of the liturgical calendar, it seems kind of weird that the brick wall is arguing that failure to answer questions or giving less than desired clarity to its questions means its conclusions are correct.

About 2000 years ago around this time of the year some carpenter from Nazareth declined to answer the questions and accusations of those who charged him with heresy. Under the brick wall's logic that carpenter must have been a heretic . . . no other possible explanation can be drawn. Or something like that.

Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

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Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

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Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

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Hmmm. Seemed a tad proud, your post. Not like you couldn't have chosen someone else for your comparison.

Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

DallasBear9902 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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You're a brick wall arguing with itself.

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Given the season of the liturgical calendar, it seems kind of weird that the brick wall is arguing that failure to answer questions or giving less than desired clarity to its questions means its conclusions are correct.

About 2000 years ago around this time of the year some carpenter from Nazareth declined to answer the questions and accusations of those who charged him with heresy. Under the brick wall's logic that carpenter must have been a heretic . . . no other possible explanation can be drawn. Or something like that.

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You guys are fooling NO ONE with all that nonsense.

Jesus was silent, and then he answered ALL questions and challenges with his resurrection. And that said it all.

Your silence just stands alone - which also says it all.

Folks, I hope you're appreciating the irony. They refuse to answer the question...

.... but I'M the one who's the "brick wall".

Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

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Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

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Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

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The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Comparing your opinion to Jesus' teachings?

Just a tad arrogant, that.

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Not making that comparison at all. Only illustrating that a failure to address an accusation is not a confession (using an example we all agree on).

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Granted, both sides are acting a bit heated. Not conducive to a healthy conversation climate, that.

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The level of projection here is absolutely INSANE.

Folks, not answering the question is what isn't conducive to a "healthy conversation climate".

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It's very strange.
Not long ago, one of these Catholics told me that I should study the story of Fatima, because it would prove to me that the worship of Mary was legit.
Then another one talked about Guadalupe as proof that Mary worship was powerful and so on.

Now they want to ignore both stories?? Very strange.

I've studied both stories, and all it proves is that Catholics are engaged in idolatry. There is no way that the same God who said, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," would then send a woman to tell His followers to pray to her, build her a bunch of churches, sing songs of praise to her... no way that Fatima and Guadalupe were sent from heaven. Those messages are in direct opposition to the direct instructions from God through the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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I have seen in purgatory,
Protestants who were pious in their ignorance, they are very desolate, for no prayers are offered for them.

Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich 🕊️ pic.twitter.com/SrOydNuV95

— Grainne 🕊️☘️ (@GrainneMcD92925) March 15, 2026

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Another vision attributed to Anne Catherine Emmerich speaks of black people having originated from Ham in the book of Genesis who was cursed for his wickedness, for which he received a black "mark" on his skin:

"The nobler races were always of a lighter color. They who were distinguished by a a particular mark engendered children of the same stamp; and as corruption increased, the mark also increased until at last it covered the whole body, and people became darker and darker. But yet in the beginning there were no people perfectly black; they only became so only by degrees." - Life of Jesus, by Anne Catherine Emmerich

Oops.

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I mean if that doesn't give her street cred with you white Christian nationalists, tell me what does.

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barBEARian will be looking right smart burning a cross on an alter built for Anne Catherine Emmerich

BearBall said:

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Jesus created one Church through Peter and it continues today through Leo XIV.

You many dispute that. You may not like it. You may belong to a spinoff.

That's ok.

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How long did it take for disputes to show themselves in the church?

How many disputes may have been wrongly settled by some?

How do you know if your church fathers settled rightly or not?

Was Luther a coarse correction or a deviation?

How do you know?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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I have seen in purgatory,
Protestants who were pious in their ignorance, they are very desolate, for no prayers are offered for them.

Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich 🕊️ pic.twitter.com/SrOydNuV95

— Grainne 🕊️☘️ (@GrainneMcD92925) March 15, 2026

---

Another vision attributed to Anne Catherine Emmerich speaks of black people having originated from Ham in the book of Genesis who was cursed for his wickedness, for which he received a black "mark" on his skin:

"The nobler races were always of a lighter color. They who were distinguished by a a particular mark engendered children of the same stamp; and as corruption increased, the mark also increased until at last it covered the whole body, and people became darker and darker. But yet in the beginning there were no people perfectly black; they only became so only by degrees." - Life of Jesus, by Anne Catherine Emmerich

Oops.

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I mean if that doesn't give her street cred with you white Christian nationalists, tell me what does.

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You missed the point (no surprise there)

It just shows that she had a history of making up stuff to support "doctrines" when in reality she is just supporting & expressing her own nasty views of people that she doesn't like and/or disagree with her. She should definitely appeal to a leftist like yourself. Generating false "evidence" to attack people you hate.... right up your ally.

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We're talking to people who accept the authority of a church that tells them that Marian apparitions, which command them to build churches in her honor and to establish world-wide devotion to her "Immaculate Heart" in order for sinners to be saved, is from God. What's blatant racism going to do to dissaude them?

They are truly lost and need our prayers.

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Ah so you think in their hearts that they truly think Mary saves them instead of Jesus?

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Do you know in their hearts that they don't?

Regardless, that isn't even the point. Is that message from God? I know you have difficulty giving direct answers to questions, but what is your answer?

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Doc? Cat got your tongue?

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Ok, Doc bailed. I turn this question to the Roman Catholics - Freedom, Coke, Sam, Florida, Kai, et al? Is this message from God?

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I've already bailed, but not because I couldn't answer your questions. I and others have answered them many times.

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No, you never could, and never did. You may have typed a response, but it was never an answer. It was just your usual avoidance games. Maybe we can demonstrate it to this forum with this question here. The answer to the question I'm posing to you is no more than three letters long. No, or yes: are the messages from purported Marian apparitions in question, which commanded a church to be built in her honor, and that world-wide devotion to her "Immaculate Heart" be established for the forgiveness of sins, from God?

I've given my answer: NO.

What say you?

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I don't find these debates productive and don't want to get drawn in. That's not to say I don't learn from many of the posts here. But there's a kind of semantic barrier between the two sides that makes any mutual understanding extremely difficult.

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Sam has elected to dodge, which is no surprise.

What about you other Roman Catholics? What say you?

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I have RC family members that I'm sure pray to Mary and turn to her more frequently than they turn to Christ.

I also have Protestant friends that think they are going to heaven because they're a good person.

The Church(es) has a lot of work to do regardless of if they have a Pope or not.

Conversation starts at 1:55

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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I have seen in purgatory,
Protestants who were pious in their ignorance, they are very desolate, for no prayers are offered for them.

Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich 🕊️ pic.twitter.com/SrOydNuV95

— Grainne 🕊️☘️ (@GrainneMcD92925) March 15, 2026

---

Another vision attributed to Anne Catherine Emmerich speaks of black people having originated from Ham in the book of Genesis who was cursed for his wickedness, for which he received a black "mark" on his skin:

"The nobler races were always of a lighter color. They who were distinguished by a a particular mark engendered children of the same stamp; and as corruption increased, the mark also increased until at last it covered the whole body, and people became darker and darker. But yet in the beginning there were no people perfectly black; they only became so only by degrees." - Life of Jesus, by Anne Catherine Emmerich

Oops.

---

I mean if that doesn't give her street cred with you white Christian nationalists, tell me what does.

---

You missed the point (no surprise there)

It just shows that she had a history of making up stuff to support "doctrines" when in reality she is just supporting & expressing her own nasty views of people that she doesn't like and/or disagree with her. She should definitely appeal to a leftist like yourself. Generating false "evidence" to attack people you hate.... right up your ally.

---

We're talking to people who accept the authority of a church that tells them that Marian apparitions, which command them to build churches in her honor and to establish world-wide devotion to her "Immaculate Heart" in order for sinners to be saved, is from God. What's blatant racism going to do to dissaude them?

They are truly lost and need our prayers.

---

Ah so you think in their hearts that they truly think Mary saves them instead of Jesus?

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Do you know in their hearts that they don't?

Regardless, that isn't even the point. Is that message from God? I know you have difficulty giving direct answers to questions, but what is your answer?

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Doc? Cat got your tongue?

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Ok, Doc bailed. I turn this question to the Roman Catholics - Freedom, Coke, Sam, Florida, Kai, et al? Is this message from God?

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I've already bailed, but not because I couldn't answer your questions. I and others have answered them many times.

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No, you never could, and never did. You may have typed a response, but it was never an answer. It was just your usual avoidance games. Maybe we can demonstrate it to this forum with this question here. The answer to the question I'm posing to you is no more than three letters long. No, or yes: are the messages from purported Marian apparitions in question, which commanded a church to be built in her honor, and that world-wide devotion to her "Immaculate Heart" be established for the forgiveness of sins, from God?

I've given my answer: NO.

What say you?

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I don't find these debates productive and don't want to get drawn in. That's not to say I don't learn from many of the posts here. But there's a kind of semantic barrier between the two sides that makes any mutual understanding extremely difficult.

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Sam has elected to dodge, which is no surprise.

What about you other Roman Catholics? What say you?

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I have RC family members that I'm sure pray to Mary and turn to her more frequently than they turn to Christ.

I also have Protestant friends that think they are going to heaven because they're a good person.

The Church(es) has a lot of work to do regardless of if they have a Pope or not.

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Between those two groups you referenced, one of them is correctly following the teachings of their church.

See the (huge) difference?

A moral equivalence argument doesn't work here.