xfrodobagginsx said:

---

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

---

So many lies and errors here. Imagine living one's whole life this lost

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

---

The ignorance to say "she is not God" is all one needs to see and why people flock to the Catholic faith as fast as they can while there is still time
Praise God.

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae.

Amen

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

---

So many lies and errors here. Imagine living one's whole life this lost

---

As I said I know you won't be convinced by any amount of evidence contradictory to the Catholic position.

It's pearls before swine. All one can do is pray for you.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

---

So many lies and errors here. Imagine living one's whole life this lost

---

As I said I know you won't be convinced by any amount of evidence contradictory to the Catholic position.

It's pearls before swine. All one can do is pray for you.

---

Youre confused on who is the swine

2,000 years of evidence and God will wonder why you were so stubborn. Zero evidence anywhere of you poisitions before 1520ish but you are your own Pope

Prayers for the protesters!!!! God please turn their hearts before it's too late for them!!!

Imagine being a willful Member of a religion that is named "against Catholocism - the universal faith established by Jesus Christ"

And now they pick and choose between 45,000 religions and all believe they are correct. Cant make this up.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

---

So many lies and errors here. Imagine living one's whole life this lost

---

As I said I know you won't be convinced by any amount of evidence contradictory to the Catholic position.

It's pearls before swine. All one can do is pray for you.

---

Youre confused on who is the swine

2,000 years of evidence and God will wonder why you were so stubborn. Zero evidence anywhere of you poisitions before 1520ish but you are your own Pope

Prayers for the protesters!!!! God please turn their hearts before it's too late for them!!!

Imagine being a willful Member of a religion that is named "against Catholocism - the universal faith established by Jesus Christ"

And now they pick and choose between 45,000 religions and all believe they are correct. Cant make this up.

---

To the contrary, my positions are no different from those stated 2000 years ago in the holy Scriptures. If you disagree with my positions, then you disagree with the apostle Paul's.

The gate is narrow. I hope you find it.

Anger and rage were the tools of the Pharisees.

Sad to see some here using such tactics.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Anger and rage were the tools of the Pharisees.

Sad to see some here using such tactics.

---

Take heed mothra

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Anger and rage were the tools of the Pharisees.

Sad to see some here using such tactics.

---

Take heed mothra

---

More than one person needs that advice.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

---

So many lies and errors here. Imagine living one's whole life this lost

---

As I said I know you won't be convinced by any amount of evidence contradictory to the Catholic position.

It's pearls before swine. All one can do is pray for you.

---

Youre confused on who is the swine

2,000 years of evidence and God will wonder why you were so stubborn. Zero evidence anywhere of you poisitions before 1520ish but you are your own Pope

Prayers for the protesters!!!! God please turn their hearts before it's too late for them!!!

Imagine being a willful Member of a religion that is named "against Catholocism - the universal faith established by Jesus Christ"

And now they pick and choose between 45,000 religions and all believe they are correct. Cant make this up.

---

To the contrary, my positions are no different from those stated 2000 years ago in the holy Scriptures. If you disagree with my positions, then you disagree with the apostle Paul's.

The gate is narrow. I hope you find it.

---

Read my post. Osas and sola scriptura and the long list of things you believe but cannot defend lead to a well walked path

Start with the verse from 1st Timothy. Study it. It could open you and your family's eyes jist in time.

No personal attacks of those helping your soul. Just patient thorough study.

Give it a try.

Mother Mary, pray for them. Pray for us.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Anger and rage were the tools of the Pharisees.

Sad to see some here using such tactics.

---

Take heed mothra

---

More than one person needs that advice.

---

You have been angry and raged quite frequently as well. I still pray for you.

Not everyone that saith to me "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he that doith the will of my Father. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, you that work iniquity. Everyone therefore that heareth these my words and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock

Sounds like (not by) faith alone…..not!

I know doith and Father are uncomfortable words for non-Catholics

Protesters lile to find a verse or two and say look look theres literally nothing you have to do. It's a gift. And then we Catholics post hundreds and hundreds of verses of Jesus literally saying not that. (Then theres Matthew 1:26)

It's bizarre and dangerous. We will help who we can in this temporal life before it's too late.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Anger and rage were the tools of the Pharisees.

Sad to see some here using such tactics.

---

Take heed mothra

---

More than one person needs that advice.

---

You have been angry and raged quite frequently as well. I still pray for you.

---

Angry yes, raged not the way some I could name.

But thanks for your prayers, the Lord wants us to pray for each other, and in prayer we often find wisdom revealed to us as well.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

---

So many lies and errors here. Imagine living one's whole life this lost

---

As I said I know you won't be convinced by any amount of evidence contradictory to the Catholic position.

It's pearls before swine. All one can do is pray for you.

---

Youre confused on who is the swine

2,000 years of evidence and God will wonder why you were so stubborn. Zero evidence anywhere of you poisitions before 1520ish but you are your own Pope

Prayers for the protesters!!!! God please turn their hearts before it's too late for them!!!

Imagine being a willful Member of a religion that is named "against Catholocism - the universal faith established by Jesus Christ"

And now they pick and choose between 45,000 religions and all believe they are correct. Cant make this up.

---

To the contrary, my positions are no different from those stated 2000 years ago in the holy Scriptures. If you disagree with my positions, then you disagree with the apostle Paul's.

The gate is narrow. I hope you find it.

---

Read my post. Osas and sola scriptura and the long list of things you believe but cannot defend lead to a well walked path

Start with the verse from 1st Timothy. Study it. It could open you and your family's eyes jist in time.

No personal attacks of those helping your soul. Just patient thorough study.

Give it a try.

Mother Mary, pray for them. Pray for us.

---

Unfortunately, Mary isn't going to help you or me. The irony is you accuse me of an unbiblical belief when in the same post you say something completely unbiblical and heretical.

I am sure the irony of that is lost on you.

Apparently these additional documents which Catholics access combined with the interpretations of past and current church teachings and leaders play an influential part in the formation of their core religious beliefs. Since many of us have formed ours based on different sources and not exposed to their sources, the likelihood hood of having a sincere, and open minded discussion, would appear to be based upon the openness or lack thereof of both sides.

Below is a superficial primer of their perspective of Mary. Perhaps it will help contribute to a civil conversation. (Perhaps)

Catholics do not actually worship Mary, but rather venerate (honor) her based on specific scriptural passages that highlight her unique, God-given role in salvation history.

In Catholic theology, true adoration or worship (latria) belongs to God alone (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The high honor given to Mary (hyperdulia) is rooted in her relationship with Christ and several key Bible verses.

Key Biblical Passages for Marian Veneration
* Luke 1:28: The angel Gabriel addresses Mary as "full of grace" (or "favored one"). Catholics see this as proof that God filled her with a unique abundance of divine life.

* Luke 1:43: Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and calls Mary the "mother of my Lord," acknowledging her status as the Mother of God (the Incarnate Christ).

* Luke 1:48: Mary proclaims in her song of praise (the Magnificat) that "all generations will call me blessed." Catholics view their ongoing honor for Mary as fulfilling this biblical prophecy.

* John 2:1-11: At the wedding at Cana, Mary intercedes on behalf of the hosts who ran out of wine. Jesus listens to her request and performs His first public miracle, demonstrating her ongoing role as an intercessor who brings human needs to Christ.

* John 19:26-27: From the cross, Jesus tells the beloved disciple, "Behold, your mother." Catholics interpret this as Jesus giving Mary to all Christians as a spiritual mother.

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

Mary's status is comparable to Ruth and Esther in the OT: women of faith who served God. We can be inspired by their faithfulness like we might remember Noah, Moses, or David. Mary deserves neither more nor less respect than other great biblical figures. We certainly have no reason to pray to anyone except God.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

---

Who would honor Mary equally to Jesus Christ? Apparently things need to be spoon fed more round here.

historian said:

---

Mary's status is comparable to Ruth and Esther in the OT: women of faith who served God. We can be inspired by their faithfulness like we might remember Noah, Moses, or David. Mary deserves neither more nor less respect than other great biblical figures. We certainly have no reason to pray to anyone except God.

---

YIKES!!!!!!! Wow

BUDOS said:

---

Apparently these additional documents which Catholics access combined with the interpretations of past and current church teachings and leaders play an influential part in the formation of their core religious beliefs. Since many of us have formed ours based on different sources and not exposed to their sources, the likelihood hood of having a sincere, and open minded discussion, would appear to be based upon the openness or lack thereof of both sides.

Below is a superficial primer of their perspective of Mary. Perhaps it will help contribute to a civil conversation. (Perhaps)

Catholics do not actually worship Mary, but rather venerate (honor) her based on specific scriptural passages that highlight her unique, God-given role in salvation history.

In Catholic theology, true adoration or worship (latria) belongs to God alone (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The high honor given to Mary (hyperdulia) is rooted in her relationship with Christ and several key Bible verses.

Key Biblical Passages for Marian Veneration
* Luke 1:28: The angel Gabriel addresses Mary as "full of grace" (or "favored one"). Catholics see this as proof that God filled her with a unique abundance of divine life.

* Luke 1:43: Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and calls Mary the "mother of my Lord," acknowledging her status as the Mother of God (the Incarnate Christ).

* Luke 1:48: Mary proclaims in her song of praise (the Magnificat) that "all generations will call me blessed." Catholics view their ongoing honor for Mary as fulfilling this biblical prophecy.

* John 2:1-11: At the wedding at Cana, Mary intercedes on behalf of the hosts who ran out of wine. Jesus listens to her request and performs His first public miracle, demonstrating her ongoing role as an intercessor who brings human needs to Christ.

* John 19:26-27: From the cross, Jesus tells the beloved disciple, "Behold, your mother." Catholics interpret this as Jesus giving Mary to all Christians as a spiritual mother.

---

If not Catholic, I would highly recommend reading Behold Your Mother. Makes all crystal clear. This is why 1 Timothy is so crucial to a well formed catechesis. .

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Mary's status is comparable to Ruth and Esther in the OT: women of faith who served God. We can be inspired by their faithfulness like we might remember Noah, Moses, or David. Mary deserves neither more nor less respect than other great biblical figures. We certainly have no reason to pray to anyone except God.

---

YIKES!!!!!!! Wow

---

Historian certainly laid out the facts.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

To honor Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who was a great woman, but was not God, was not sinless, was a mere human, on the same level as the Lord, God of the Universe, Creator, Jesus Christ because He chose and homored her to be the mother pf His flesh is Blaphemy, Idolatry and Dushonoring to the Lord, God pf heaven.

This is a violation of the first and second Commandments. Honor her, yes. On the same level as God Himself? Certainly not! Good woman of God? Yes. But she is not God.

---

So many lies and errors here. Imagine living one's whole life this lost

---

As I said I know you won't be convinced by any amount of evidence contradictory to the Catholic position.

It's pearls before swine. All one can do is pray for you.

---

Youre confused on who is the swine

2,000 years of evidence and God will wonder why you were so stubborn. Zero evidence anywhere of you poisitions before 1520ish but you are your own Pope

Prayers for the protesters!!!! God please turn their hearts before it's too late for them!!!

Imagine being a willful Member of a religion that is named "against Catholocism - the universal faith established by Jesus Christ"

And now they pick and choose between 45,000 religions and all believe they are correct. Cant make this up.

---

To the contrary, my positions are no different from those stated 2000 years ago in the holy Scriptures. If you disagree with my positions, then you disagree with the apostle Paul's.

The gate is narrow. I hope you find it.

---

Read my post. Osas and sola scriptura and the long list of things you believe but cannot defend lead to a well walked path

Start with the verse from 1st Timothy. Study it. It could open you and your family's eyes jist in time.

No personal attacks of those helping your soul. Just patient thorough study.

Give it a try.

Mother Mary, pray for them. Pray for us.

---

Unfortunately, Mary isn't going to help you or me. The irony is you accuse me of an unbiblical belief when in the same post you say something completely unbiblical and heretical.

I am sure the irony of that is lost on you.

---

This is what Helvidian heretic looks like which was dealt with almost 2,000 years ago

A true John 6:67

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Mary's status is comparable to Ruth and Esther in the OT: women of faith who served God. We can be inspired by their faithfulness like we might remember Noah, Moses, or David. Mary deserves neither more nor less respect than other great biblical figures. We certainly have no reason to pray to anyone except God.

---

YIKES!!!!!!! Wow

---

Historian certainly laid out the facts.

---

Fact = opinion to ol bear. Check.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Mary's status is comparable to Ruth and Esther in the OT: women of faith who served God. We can be inspired by their faithfulness like we might remember Noah, Moses, or David. Mary deserves neither more nor less respect than other great biblical figures. We certainly have no reason to pray to anyone except God.

---

YIKES!!!!!!! Wow

---

Historian certainly laid out the facts.

---

Fact = opinion to ol bear. Check.

---

Scripture = Fact

Cultural tradition ... nope.

And by the way, we're not playing chess.


My idea of 'check' involves a hockey player.

For the purposes of contributing to the discussion, several significant biblical verses reinforce the principle that prayer is an act of worship reserved exclusively for Godthe Father, the Son, and the Holy Spiritand that no other being should be petitioned.

Perhaps the most prominent scriptures supporting this theological framework include the following:

Worship and Prayer Belong exclusively to God
Scripture firmly establishes that worshipof which prayer is a primary formbelongs solely to the Creator, prohibiting the petitioning of any other being.

* Matthew 4:10: When tempted to bow down to another being, Jesus responds strictly with scripture: "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

* Exodus 20:3: The very foundation of God's covenant commands exclusive loyalty: "You shall have no other gods before me."

* Philippians 4:6: Believers are explicitly instructed on where to direct their requests: "...in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God."

2. Only God Possesses the Attributes to Hear All Prayers
To receive prayers from millions of people simultaneously, a being must be omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipresent (all-present). Scripture attributes these traits strictly to God, not to angels or deceased saints.

* 1 Kings 8:39: During the dedication of the Temple, Solomon notes that God holds an exclusive capability:
"...hear from heaven, your dwelling place... For you alone know the hearts of all human beings."

* Psalm 65:2: The Psalmist highlights God's unique identity as the recipient of mankind's cries: "You who answer prayer, to you all people will come."

3. Christ is the Sole Mediator Between God and Man
The New Testament consistently teaches that believers have direct access to God through Jesus Christ. This would seem to negate the need to pray to or through any other human or celestial intermediary.

* 1 Timothy 2:5: This verse explicitly limits the role of spiritual mediation: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus."

* John 14:6: Jesus clarifies that He is the exclusive pathway to the Creator: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

4. The Model and Structure of Trinitarian Prayer
When Jesus and the Apostles gave structural instructions on how to pray, they exclusively utilized the framework of the Triune God: directed to the Father, in the name of the Son, and by the power of the Holy Spirit.

* Matthew 6:9 (The Lord's Prayer): When asked exactly how to pray, Jesus modeled a direct address to the Godhead: "This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven...'"

* John 16:23: Jesus instructs believers to use His authority when approaching the Father: "Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name."

* Ephesians 2:18: Paul demonstrates how the entire Trinity is actively involved in receiving a Christian's prayer: "For through him [Jesus] we both have access in one Spirit to the Father."

Luke 11:
27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

Thanks for the references

BUDOS said:

---

Apparently these additional documents which Catholics access combined with the interpretations of past and current church teachings and leaders play an influential part in the formation of their core religious beliefs. Since many of us have formed ours based on different sources and not exposed to their sources, the likelihood hood of having a sincere, and open minded discussion, would appear to be based upon the openness or lack thereof of both sides.

Below is a superficial primer of their perspective of Mary. Perhaps it will help contribute to a civil conversation. (Perhaps)

Catholics do not actually worship Mary, but rather venerate (honor) her based on specific scriptural passages that highlight her unique, God-given role in salvation history.

In Catholic theology, true adoration or worship (latria) belongs to God alone (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The high honor given to Mary (hyperdulia) is rooted in her relationship with Christ and several key Bible verses.

Key Biblical Passages for Marian Veneration
* Luke 1:28: The angel Gabriel addresses Mary as "full of grace" (or "favored one"). Catholics see this as proof that God filled her with a unique abundance of divine life.

* Luke 1:43: Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and calls Mary the "mother of my Lord," acknowledging her status as the Mother of God (the Incarnate Christ).

* Luke 1:48: Mary proclaims in her song of praise (the Magnificat) that "all generations will call me blessed." Catholics view their ongoing honor for Mary as fulfilling this biblical prophecy.

* John 2:1-11: At the wedding at Cana, Mary intercedes on behalf of the hosts who ran out of wine. Jesus listens to her request and performs His first public miracle, demonstrating her ongoing role as an intercessor who brings human needs to Christ.

* John 19:26-27: From the cross, Jesus tells the beloved disciple, "Behold, your mother." Catholics interpret this as Jesus giving Mary to all Christians as a spiritual mother.

---

The Roman Catholic Church also proclaims all these about Mary:

Statements from popes:

• "O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)
• "no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother" (Pope Leo 13th, Octobri Mense)
• "She has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings" (St. Lawrence Justinian)
• "Mary's intercession is necessary for salvation.... " (St. Alphonsus Ligouri, Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church)
• "Mary is the road we must travel to reach God" (Pope Francis, paraphrased)

Statements in their Catechisms:

• CCC 2677: "Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her." "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy", the All-Holy One. We give ourselves to her now... [and] to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care."
• CCC 969: "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly... until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

Statements in their official prayers:

• "Oh Mary, sweet refuge of poor sinners, assist me with thy mercy, banish me from the infernal enemies, and come thou to take my soul and present it to the eternal judge, my queen, do not abandon me, I give you my heart and soul."
• "Oh immaculate and holy pure virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the World, thou are the joy of the saints, thou art the peacemaker between sinners and God, thou art the advocate of the abandoned, the secure haven of those who are on the sea of this world, thou art the consolation of this world, the ransomer of slaves, the comforter of the afflicted, the salvation of the universe."
• "We have confidence but in thee, O most faithful virgin, O great Mediatress of peace between men and God, the love of all men and of God to whom the honor and benediction with the Father and the Holy Ghost, amen."
• "O sovereign lady, saint of all saints, our strength and our refuge, God of this world, glory of heaven, accept those who love thee."
• "O sovereign princess, turn o Mary thy loving eyes on me, look at me and draw me to thee"
• Mary, Blessed Virgin, Immaculate Queen, I dedicate my family forever to thy service, I appoint thee ruler of my whole house. Bless us, defend us, provide for us, counsel us, comfort us, assist us in our infirmities, especially in the sorrows of death, grant that we may go to heaven."
• "Every prayer of Mary's is like an established Law for our Lord, obliging him to be merciful for everyone for whom she intercedes"
• "Mary throws open the door of God's mercies to anyone she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases"

Stop being afraid to have the real discussion. If protestants like some here only want to sugarcoat the truth and refuse to call these out as sheer heresy and idolatry, then how can ever expect Roman Catholics to?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Apparently these additional documents which Catholics access combined with the interpretations of past and current church teachings and leaders play an influential part in the formation of their core religious beliefs. Since many of us have formed ours based on different sources and not exposed to their sources, the likelihood hood of having a sincere, and open minded discussion, would appear to be based upon the openness or lack thereof of both sides.

Below is a superficial primer of their perspective of Mary. Perhaps it will help contribute to a civil conversation. (Perhaps)

Catholics do not actually worship Mary, but rather venerate (honor) her based on specific scriptural passages that highlight her unique, God-given role in salvation history.

In Catholic theology, true adoration or worship (latria) belongs to God alone (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The high honor given to Mary (hyperdulia) is rooted in her relationship with Christ and several key Bible verses.

Key Biblical Passages for Marian Veneration
* Luke 1:28: The angel Gabriel addresses Mary as "full of grace" (or "favored one"). Catholics see this as proof that God filled her with a unique abundance of divine life.

* Luke 1:43: Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and calls Mary the "mother of my Lord," acknowledging her status as the Mother of God (the Incarnate Christ).

* Luke 1:48: Mary proclaims in her song of praise (the Magnificat) that "all generations will call me blessed." Catholics view their ongoing honor for Mary as fulfilling this biblical prophecy.

* John 2:1-11: At the wedding at Cana, Mary intercedes on behalf of the hosts who ran out of wine. Jesus listens to her request and performs His first public miracle, demonstrating her ongoing role as an intercessor who brings human needs to Christ.

* John 19:26-27: From the cross, Jesus tells the beloved disciple, "Behold, your mother." Catholics interpret this as Jesus giving Mary to all Christians as a spiritual mother.

---

The Roman Catholic Church also proclaims all these about Mary:

Statements from popes:

• "O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)
• "no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother" (Pope Leo 13th, Octobri Mense)
• "She has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings" (St. Lawrence Justinian)
• "Mary's intercession is necessary for salvation.... " (St. Alphonsus Ligouri, Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church)
• "Mary is the road we must travel to reach God" (Pope Francis, paraphrased)

Statements in their Catechisms:

• CCC 2677: "Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her." "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy", the All-Holy One. We give ourselves to her now... [and] to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care."
• CCC 969: "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly... until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

Statements in their official prayers:

• "Oh Mary, sweet refuge of poor sinners, assist me with thy mercy, banish me from the infernal enemies, and come thou to take my soul and present it to the eternal judge, my queen, do not abandon me, I give you my heart and soul."
• "Oh immaculate and holy pure virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the World, thou are the joy of the saints, thou art the peacemaker between sinners and God, thou art the advocate of the abandoned, the secure haven of those who are on the sea of this world, thou art the consolation of this world, the ransomer of slaves, the comforter of the afflicted, the salvation of the universe."
• "We have confidence but in thee, O most faithful virgin, O great Mediatress of peace between men and God, the love of all men and of God to whom the honor and benediction with the Father and the Holy Ghost, amen."
• "O sovereign lady, saint of all saints, our strength and our refuge, God of this world, glory of heaven, accept those who love thee."
• "O sovereign princess, turn o Mary thy loving eyes on me, look at me and draw me to thee"
• Mary, Blessed Virgin, Immaculate Queen, I dedicate my family forever to thy service, I appoint thee ruler of my whole house. Bless us, defend us, provide for us, counsel us, comfort us, assist us in our infirmities, especially in the sorrows of death, grant that we may go to heaven."
• "Every prayer of Mary's is like an established Law for our Lord, obliging him to be merciful for everyone for whom she intercedes"
• "Mary throws open the door of God's mercies to anyone she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases"

Stop being afraid to have the real discussion. If protestants like some here only want to sugarcoat the truth and refuse to call these out as sheer heresy and idolatry, then how can ever expect Roman Catholics to?

---

I won't speak for others, but I will give you my 2.5 cents. Different individuals may have their own reasons and motivations in discussing this topic. For those that do, some may find it difficult by essentially calling someone an idiot and using a tone that sends a message that they really don't want to debate the issue, but, when that person is in a good mood may just prefer to destroy the individual's sense of respect and call them an idiot.

Some may be learning a bit more about an aspect of religion that they didn't know before. Others may want to just gain a better understanding and some of us just like to have a lively debate, without a lot of vitriol. I do appreciate that you asked. If you choose to respond in your traditional manner, don't expect me to waste my time on you anymore. Should you choose to be civil, then I am open to discussion.

Excellent post.

BUDOS said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Apparently these additional documents which Catholics access combined with the interpretations of past and current church teachings and leaders play an influential part in the formation of their core religious beliefs. Since many of us have formed ours based on different sources and not exposed to their sources, the likelihood hood of having a sincere, and open minded discussion, would appear to be based upon the openness or lack thereof of both sides.

Below is a superficial primer of their perspective of Mary. Perhaps it will help contribute to a civil conversation. (Perhaps)

Catholics do not actually worship Mary, but rather venerate (honor) her based on specific scriptural passages that highlight her unique, God-given role in salvation history.

In Catholic theology, true adoration or worship (latria) belongs to God alone (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The high honor given to Mary (hyperdulia) is rooted in her relationship with Christ and several key Bible verses.

Key Biblical Passages for Marian Veneration
* Luke 1:28: The angel Gabriel addresses Mary as "full of grace" (or "favored one"). Catholics see this as proof that God filled her with a unique abundance of divine life.

* Luke 1:43: Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and calls Mary the "mother of my Lord," acknowledging her status as the Mother of God (the Incarnate Christ).

* Luke 1:48: Mary proclaims in her song of praise (the Magnificat) that "all generations will call me blessed." Catholics view their ongoing honor for Mary as fulfilling this biblical prophecy.

* John 2:1-11: At the wedding at Cana, Mary intercedes on behalf of the hosts who ran out of wine. Jesus listens to her request and performs His first public miracle, demonstrating her ongoing role as an intercessor who brings human needs to Christ.

* John 19:26-27: From the cross, Jesus tells the beloved disciple, "Behold, your mother." Catholics interpret this as Jesus giving Mary to all Christians as a spiritual mother.

---

The Roman Catholic Church also proclaims all these about Mary:

Statements from popes:

• "O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." (Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem, 9)
• "no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother" (Pope Leo 13th, Octobri Mense)
• "She has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings" (St. Lawrence Justinian)
• "Mary's intercession is necessary for salvation.... " (St. Alphonsus Ligouri, Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church)
• "Mary is the road we must travel to reach God" (Pope Francis, paraphrased)

Statements in their Catechisms:

• CCC 2677: "Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her." "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy", the All-Holy One. We give ourselves to her now... [and] to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care."
• CCC 969: "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly... until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

Statements in their official prayers:

• "Oh Mary, sweet refuge of poor sinners, assist me with thy mercy, banish me from the infernal enemies, and come thou to take my soul and present it to the eternal judge, my queen, do not abandon me, I give you my heart and soul."
• "Oh immaculate and holy pure virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the World, thou are the joy of the saints, thou art the peacemaker between sinners and God, thou art the advocate of the abandoned, the secure haven of those who are on the sea of this world, thou art the consolation of this world, the ransomer of slaves, the comforter of the afflicted, the salvation of the universe."
• "We have confidence but in thee, O most faithful virgin, O great Mediatress of peace between men and God, the love of all men and of God to whom the honor and benediction with the Father and the Holy Ghost, amen."
• "O sovereign lady, saint of all saints, our strength and our refuge, God of this world, glory of heaven, accept those who love thee."
• "O sovereign princess, turn o Mary thy loving eyes on me, look at me and draw me to thee"
• Mary, Blessed Virgin, Immaculate Queen, I dedicate my family forever to thy service, I appoint thee ruler of my whole house. Bless us, defend us, provide for us, counsel us, comfort us, assist us in our infirmities, especially in the sorrows of death, grant that we may go to heaven."
• "Every prayer of Mary's is like an established Law for our Lord, obliging him to be merciful for everyone for whom she intercedes"
• "Mary throws open the door of God's mercies to anyone she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases"

Stop being afraid to have the real discussion. If protestants like some here only want to sugarcoat the truth and refuse to call these out as sheer heresy and idolatry, then how can ever expect Roman Catholics to?

---

I won't speak for others, but I will give you my 2.5 cents. Different individuals may have their own reasons and motivations in discussing this topic. For those that do, some may find it difficult by essentially calling someone an idiot and using a tone that sends a message that they really don't want to debate the issue, but, when that person is in a good mood may just prefer to destroy the individual's sense of respect and call them an idiot.

Some may be learning a bit more about an aspect of religion that they didn't know before. Others may want to just gain a better understanding and some of us just like to have a lively debate, without a lot of vitriol. I do appreciate that you asked. If you choose to respond in your traditional manner, don't expect me to waste my time on you anymore. Should you choose to be civil, then I am open to discussion.

---

WHERE are you getting any of this in my comment? Where is the "vitriol" or name calling? In any of my comments?

It's really strange how the one here who repeatedly attacked me with his/her internet psychological diagnoses in order to marginalize me, is actually trying to preach civility in discussion.

Regardless - civility is one thing. Truth that certain people really need to be confronted with, that's another.

BUDOS and OldBear:

Do you believe that Roman Catholic and Orthodox prayers/liturgy to Mary which say the following:

"Most Holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary,
to you who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the universe, the advocate,
the hope, and the refuge of sinners,

I venerate you, great Queen, and I thank you for the many graces
you have bestowed upon me even unto this day;
in particular for having delivered me from the hell
which I have so often deserved by my sins....

... I promise to serve you willingly for ever...

... I place in you all my hopes for salvation"



.... do you believe that this, in addition to all that I listed previously, is idolatrous and heretical?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BUDOS and OldBear:

Do you believe that Roman Catholic and Orthodox prayers/liturgy to Mary which say the following:

"Most Holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary,
to you who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the universe, the advocate,
the hope, and the refuge of sinners,

I venerate you, great Queen, and I thank you for the many graces
you have bestowed upon me even unto this day;
in particular for having delivered me from the hell
which I have so often deserved by my sins....

... I promise to serve you willingly for ever...

... I place in you all my hopes for salvation"



.... do you believe that this, in addition to all that I listed previously, is idolatrous and heretical?

---

BUDOS?
OldBear?

There hasn't been ANY "vitriol" or "name calling" here. There is no harsh or abrasive "tone" here. People here are fully aware of those as being lies and excuses to dodge questions, and nobody buys it.

This is simply a call for clarity and truth. "Civility" in discussion is useless unless there is clarity and truth in Jesus name. But this is hardly from being uncivil, it's simply a question that frankly, no true Christian should ever have a problem with answering.

So what is your answer?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Worship God alone.

---

Posting this again, since at least one seems to have missed my thoughts on the topic.