Texas Independence Referendum Act filed in Texas House

44,638 Views | 574 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by TexasScientist
TexasScientist
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Texasjeremy said:

Today, State Representative Kyle Biedermann's legislation that would give the people of Texas a chance to vote on Texas becoming an independent, self-governing nation became official.

The "Let Texas Vote" act would give Texans an opportunity to head to the polls in November of 2021 and start the process of reasserting our status as an independent nation. If the people vote in favor, the bill provides for the establishment of a committee to begin working on a transitional plan which would address all of the issues related to decoupling from the federal government.

This bill is simply to put the question to the people of Texas. Even if legislators don't personally support TEXIT, at a minimum they should support your right to publicly debate and vote on the issue. Your representatives either believe that you are smart and responsible enough to make this decision or they believe that they know what's best for you regardless of what you think. There is no middle ground.
Most voters are not smart and responsible enough to make a decision like this. We ran into that mindset in 1861. If Texas became independent, how long do you think it would be before it was annexed into Mexico?
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
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Russell Gym said:

Trump moves here to become Presidente de Tejas and build a North Wall to bookend the South Wall.

Texans will support both overwhelmingly.
Texas faught a revolution to get out from under a Mexican dictator. You want to replace him with a New York dictator?
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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4yrletterbear said:

Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana control a majority of the oil production in the US. Those three would make a good start on a new Republic.

Simply sell the refined petroleum at a premium back to the Blue States to compensate citizens for their loss of federal income such as Medicare.

The rest if the dominoes will fall into place and the Left coast and the East coast will be separated by a Red Land of Freedom.
A guaranteed income like the Saudis? Will we have a ruling family also?
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
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Osodecentx said:

fubar said:

Osodecentx said:

bubbadog said:

Texasjeremy said:

Keep in mind, if it were to get on the ballot and pass, they would then form a committee to spend 2 years investigating if its feasible. Think of it like Brexit, once it passed the voters it took awhile before they were able to separate themselves. Not saying they are right or wrong, but if Texas would be better off, it is at the very least worth looking into.
Let's be real about this. They don't need a committee to investigate whether secession is feasible (along with the old idea of dividing into 5 states). You could make 5 quick phone calls to constitutional law experts and get the answer, which is no.

This is not about helping the people of Texas make a more informed decision. This is just about scoring political points, and wasting taxpayer money in the process.
I think you are wrong about Texas being able to divide into 5 states.

Revisionist History has a great podcast on this. I'll track it down and post for you
I believe Texas did have that option when it was first admitted in 1845.

People seem to forget that Texas was admitted a second time, and I doubt that provision about dividing was in there that time.
This law review article says Texas can divide & we already have permission from the US Congress to do so.
http://revisionisthistory.com/pdfs/Kesavan_Paulsen.pdf


What would you gain from division?
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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J.B.Katz said:

Who would be president of the Lone Star Republic? Trump? Would he rule from his estate in Florida? Or would Texas become a haven so he wouldn't be extradited to other states to face criminal charges.

Ken Paxton and Dan Patrick are still working for the state of Texas. Not a good sign if the successionistas intend to stick with current management.

This would get Cruz and Cornyn out of the SEnate. Cruz is a dick and you boys can have him, Cornyn merely a disappointment who leans whatever way the wind's blowing.
Trump wants to be a dictator. Here's his chance. He'll only just have to kick Allen West out of his way.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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Texasjeremy said:

https://tnm.me/texit/can/didnt-the-supreme-court-declare-secession-unconstitutional

The entire legal argument for the unconstitutionality of States leaving the Union rests on the Supreme Court's decision in the 1869 case of Texas v. White. However, when it comes to Texas v. White, more and more academics are adopting the stance of historian Dr. Brion McClanahan. When asked that very question at an academic conference in Florida, his response was an indignant, "So what?"

Dr. McClanahan's attitude toward Texas v. White is not based on a denial of facts. In fact, contrary to the concrete pronouncements by Texit detractors, the decision in Texas v. White has been debated and debunked extensively starting from the moment Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase issued the majority opinion.

The dissenting opinion, issued by Justice Robert C. Grier, highlighted many of the deficiencies of the Supreme Court's ruling, stating that he disagreed "on all points raised and decided." The assertions made by Chase were so offensive to his contemporaries that Union and Confederate sympathizers, both fresh from the battlefields and still harboring deep divisions, were united in their contempt for his ruling.

Bristling at the usurpation by the judiciary of the power to determine political questions, Lyman Trumbull, a United States senator from Illinois, introduced legislation that, in part, stated, "Under the Constitution, the judicial power of the United States does not embrace political power, or give to judicial tribunals any authority to question the political departments of the Government on political questions."

There is no doubt that Chief Justice Chase, an appointee of Abraham Lincoln, used the opportunity presented by Texas v. White to stamp a retroactive "seal of approval" on the federal government's policies and actions during the Civil War. To do so, Chase had to rewrite history and virtually all established law on the subject.

To reinforce his belief that the United States was a "perpetual union," he had to assert the ludicrous argument that the United States Constitution was merely an amending document to the previous Articles of Confederation, citing the Preamble to the Constitution. He then had to ignore that it only took 9 States of the original 13 to ratify the Constitution of 1787 and that, had less than 13 States ratified, it would have destroyed the "perpetual union" allegedly created by the Articles of Confederation.

To reinforce his assertion that the United States was an "indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States," Chase had to ignore the existence of West Virginia, and the agreement with the Republic of Texas upon its admission, that it could divide into 4 additional States and that those additional States would be guaranteed admission into the Union if they so chose.

To reinforce his assertion that States, upon entering the Union, gave up all rights of sovereignty and became incorporated in a single, monolithic superstate, Chase had to ignore every reference to the States as individual political entities in the Declaration of Independence, the aforementioned Articles of Confederation, the Northwest Ordinance, the United States Constitution, and all intent of the framers, clearly expressed in the period.

In his zeal to confirm the supremacy of the Union, Chase ascribed qualities to it that are usually reserved for deities. In effect, he equated the Union to God and established a quasi-religious orthodoxy that requires adherence to a doctrine that elevates the federal government to godhood, its three branches to the Holy Trinity, and the judiciary as its holy priesthood.

There is no doubt that, had the States been exposed to Chase's logic during deliberations over the ratification of the Constitution, they would have soundly rejected it and likely drafted a new Declaration of Independence.

The Supreme Court was not and never will be perfect. Some of the most heinous, morally reprehensible, logically flawed decisions have emanated from the Supreme Court. To imbue it with infallibility is to say that, when it upheld slave catching or when it upheld racial segregation, it was right. Yet decisions by the Court in both of those instances have been overturned.

Even Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., in the 1904 case of Northern Securities Co. v. United States, recognized that the Court could be caught up in the politics and passions of the day and render bad decisions.

"Great cases like hard cases make bad law. For great cases are called great, not by reason of their importance but because of some accident of immediate overwhelming interest which appeals to the feelings and distorts the judgment."

With all its obvious flaws, some academics continue to point to Texas v. White as the "silver bullet" that handles all questions related to States separating from the Union. However, others tend to glide over it so as not to have to acknowledge its most significant problem.

Embracing Texas v. White requires one to believe the last 150 years never happened. Since 1869, the world kept spinning. Generations have come and gone, and the Supreme Court has continued to issue rulings that chip away at the foundations of Texas v. White. As the entirety of Chase's determination is predicated on the claim that "perpetual union" is the "more perfect union" spoken of in the Preamble of the Constitution, the single ruling by the Court in the 1905 case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts, where it was determined that the federal government can gain no powers based on the Preamble, could utterly destroy Texas v. White.

The federal government's position on self-determination has evolved to the point of signing international agreements, covenants, and treaties pledging to respect the right of self-determination. The same chorus of voices who declare that Texas v. White is the "end all, be all" of decisions on the matter of self-determination of the States are the same voices who declare that subsequent rulings by the Supreme Court obligate the federal government and the States to give treaty obligations, such as those dealing with self-determination, the same weight as constitutional law and argue for its application as such.

Ultimately, though, any question of self-determination is political in nature. It is not, and never will be, a judicial question.
All of this was resolved in 1864. The rest of the country isn't going to allow Texit.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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Texasjeremy said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

D. C. Bear said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

J.B.Katz said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Midnight Rider said:

There's a certain contradiction between loving your country and wanting to secede from it.
Not at all.

This is not MY Republican Party

This is not MY Democratic Party

This is not MY Episcopal church

This is not MY Baylor University

This is not MY drug-addicted spouse

This is not MY America

All of the things listed above provide opportunities to change or influence them in a positive manner and while in a position of deeper involvement. However, at a certain point, individuals will decide for themselves that the point of positive influence no longer exist and it is time to exit that relationship. It doesn't mean that the love is gone but, it may mean that the disgust outweighs that love.
I've chosen to stay a Republican. I've been one all my life and I'm old. My party needs moderates whether the Trumpers want us or not.

I'm watching the fallout from the stunt Kelli WArd pulled in AZ with censuring Cindy McCain, jeff Flake and Doug Ducey. I was hoping Ward wouldnt be reelected and it was close but not enough.

Tough decisions require and ABSOLUTELY deserve extreme contemplation. No fault divorce is a bad thing. No fault Texit would be worse.


There is no legal mechanism for leaving the union.
There is some disagreement as to whether or not Texas had that mechanism

https://tnm.me/texit/can/is-texit-unconstitutional

There is no prohibition in the United States Constitution that forbids any state from exiting the union. The Constitution of the United States actually defines the specific acts States are forbidden from committing in Article 1, Section 10. Nowhere in the remainder of the Constitution is the issue of a State leaving the Union explicitly forbidden, nor is power ceded to the federal government to prohibit one from doing so. In this silence, the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution rings loudly.
Constitution of the United States, Tenth Amendment said:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
This deafening constitutional silence, coupled with the definitive reservation of power by the States, leaves the decision to the people of a State and to those people alone. For this, we have to look to the Texas Constitution. Article 1, Section 1 not only expressly reserves all sovereignty not granted through the United States Constitution, but it also sets the conditions upon which Texas will remain in the union.
Texas Constitution, Article 1 Section 1 said:

Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States, and the maintenance of our free institutions and the perpetuity of the Union depend upon the preservation of the right of local self-government, unimpaired to all the States.
In the very next section of our governing document, the power to determine how Texans govern themselves is clearly declared to reside in the people of Texas alone.
Texas Constitution, Article 1 Section 2 said:

All political power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their benefit. The faith of the people of Texas stands pledged to the preservation of a republican form of government, and, subject to this limitation only, they have at all times the inalienable right to alter, reform or abolish their government in such manner as they may think expedient.


That's what people mistakenly thought in 1861.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
D. C. Bear
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Russell Gym said:

Trump moves here to become Presidente de Tejas and build a North Wall to bookend the South Wall.

Texans will support both overwhelmingly.


I have seen a lot of stupid posts. The one above is at the upper end. Only 52 percent of Texans voted for Trump as president in 2020. What a load of dumbassery.
TexasScientist
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Texasjeremy said:

J.B.Katz said:

Does Texas get more from the federal gvt than citizens pay in? most Southern states would cut off their nose to spite their face if they left the union and God help them if a hurricane hit them.

What all this talk doesn't consider is structures like the energy grid and the transporation grid that assume a permanent uniion, not to mention NASA's Houston operation and military bases. Yall intending just to take those over and expecting the other 49 states to hand them over without a peep? Askin for a friend.

Texas pays more into the federal government than it receives back. As for the energy grid, Texas has its own, separate from the rest of the nation.

https://tnm.me/texit/energy-environment/will-we-have-to-buy-our-electricity-from-the-u-s-after-texit

The short answer is an emphatic "NO". Here's what you need to know.

Texas both produces and consumes more electricity than any other state. Texas' abundant natural resources, including natural gas, coal and wind, are readily available to fuel our power plants.

Texas is the only one of the contiguous 48 states with its own stand-alone electricity grid, one of the three main grids in the U.S.: the Eastern Interconnection, Western Interconnection and Texas Interconnection. The Texas Interconnection, which covers 213 of the 254 Texas counties, is managed by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, or ERCOT. Portions of Texas near the state's borders are covered by the eastern and western grids.

As the independent system operator for the Texas grid, ERCOT connects more than 46,500 miles of transmission lines and more than 650 power generation facilities, providing electricity to more than 26 million customers.

ERCOT's primary responsibilities include maintaining power reliability, ensuring open access to transmission lines and facilitating competitive electricity markets. It's overseen by the Texas Public Utility Commission, which also enforces compliance with the state's utility laws and regulates Texas' electric utility rates.

In Texas, several types of entities are involved in providing electricity to end users. The current structure dates from 1999, when the Texas Legislature introduced retail competition in much of ERCOT's service area. According to ERCOT, about 75 percent of its total power load represents customers in these "competitive" areas.

In competitive areas, power generators produce electricity from fuel and sell it on the wholesale market, where it's purchased by private companies called investor-owned utilities or retail electricity providers (REPs). Texas has about 300 REPs; customers can choose among them based on pricing and various options such as an emphasis on renewable power. Electricity purchased from REPs is distributed to homes, businesses and other facilities by transmission and distribution utilities, which own the actual poles, power lines and meters.

Texans living in areas outside the ERCOT grid or in areas served by municipally-owned utilities (such as Austin Energy), electricity co-ops, and river authorities rely on a single service provider. According to the Legislative Budget Board, as of September 2019, six of Texas' 20 largest cities maintained their own utilities, the largest being San Antonio.

Texas produces more electricity than it consumes and maintains a buffer referred to as the "state's reserve margin". This margin ensures that we never have to suffer from rolling blackouts like California.

Post-TEXIT, Texas will need to transition any non-ERCOT portions of the grid to ERCOT. While the state's reserve buffer could handle it, Texas will still need to increase its power generation capabilities to ensure that we have the widest margin possible between production and consumption.

The good news is that Texas is already expanding electrical production capacity as we speak to accommodate the growth in population and the greater needs of a high-tech society.
Most of East Texas and parts of the Panhandle are connected with the Southwest Power Pool serving NW Louisiana, SW Arkansas, and Southern Oklahoma. That system is not connected to ERCOT and is not in phase with ERCOT. Things are not a simple as you think.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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Carlos Safety said:

D. C. Bear said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

J.B.Katz said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Midnight Rider said:

There's a certain contradiction between loving your country and wanting to secede from it.
Not at all.

This is not MY Republican Party

This is not MY Democratic Party

This is not MY Episcopal church

This is not MY Baylor University

This is not MY drug-addicted spouse

This is not MY America

All of the things listed above provide opportunities to change or influence them in a positive manner and while in a position of deeper involvement. However, at a certain point, individuals will decide for themselves that the point of positive influence no longer exist and it is time to exit that relationship. It doesn't mean that the love is gone but, it may mean that the disgust outweighs that love.
I've chosen to stay a Republican. I've been one all my life and I'm old. My party needs moderates whether the Trumpers want us or not.

I'm watching the fallout from the stunt Kelli WArd pulled in AZ with censuring Cindy McCain, jeff Flake and Doug Ducey. I was hoping Ward wouldnt be reelected and it was close but not enough.

Tough decisions require and ABSOLUTELY deserve extreme contemplation. No fault divorce is a bad thing. No fault Texit would be worse.


There is no legal mechanism for leaving the union.
I don't think there needs to be anything in writing providing for a split. It is a basic right that if a people no longer want to be part of the existing political, social compact, then they should be free to leave. Our Founding Fathers did not wait for Parliament to approve their decision to divorce from Great Britain. If Texas wants to have a Texodus, then we are allowed as a free people to exit the existing political and social compact we have with what have become our masters in DC.
That's what Texas thought in 1861. The rest of the country isn't going to look at it any different in 2021. And what if Mexico decides it want's its territory back?
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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tommie said:

bubbadog said:

tommie said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

tommie said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

tommie said:

How will this work? Secede then want a free trade agreement and shared security.
The devil is in the details. That is probably why the committee. You think?


I don't need a committee to tell me going bareback on a pornstar is a star is a bad idea. This is worse.
one vote for "no". Got it.

You probably should have checked with committee advice on prior decisions... just sayin


So, committeman,



Yes or no?



Talk about your horns of a dilemma...

It's actually pretty simple. A leader of Christians would never let a little polyurethane (or vows) get between him and a pornstar.
Not so far.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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J.B.Katz said:

tommie said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

bubbadog said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

Last time we tried this they shot two of my great uncles at Shiloh. I am for it
but not enough to die like they did. Damn Grant and Ape.
Not to derail this thread (although it could probably use it), but have you ever read Tony Horwitz's Confederates in the Attic? He has a great chapter about being at Shiloh before dawn on the anniversary of the battle.

My wife's uncle had a farm about 5 miles from Shiloh. The government leased out some of the land within the military park to him and other local farmers. I've walked that battlefield many times.
Not to further derail this thread, but if Texas did somehow become independent, would I now be an illegal alien if I tried to drive into the United States.

That would be a bummer, I really like NM and other states nearby.


You'd probably need a passport and see your buying power in New Mexico halfed.
What is there to buy in New Mexico?

This might give Colorado an opportunity to keep out of control Texans of the slopes by refusing to let them cross the border.
This raises another question. Can Texas reclaim its original borders taking back parts of New Mexico and Colorado? We wouldn't be a real country without an Olympic ski team.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Osodecentx
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TexasScientist said:

Osodecentx said:

fubar said:

Osodecentx said:

bubbadog said:

Texasjeremy said:

Keep in mind, if it were to get on the ballot and pass, they would then form a committee to spend 2 years investigating if its feasible. Think of it like Brexit, once it passed the voters it took awhile before they were able to separate themselves. Not saying they are right or wrong, but if Texas would be better off, it is at the very least worth looking into.
Let's be real about this. They don't need a committee to investigate whether secession is feasible (along with the old idea of dividing into 5 states). You could make 5 quick phone calls to constitutional law experts and get the answer, which is no.

This is not about helping the people of Texas make a more informed decision. This is just about scoring political points, and wasting taxpayer money in the process.
I think you are wrong about Texas being able to divide into 5 states.

Revisionist History has a great podcast on this. I'll track it down and post for you
I believe Texas did have that option when it was first admitted in 1845.

People seem to forget that Texas was admitted a second time, and I doubt that provision about dividing was in there that time.
This law review article says Texas can divide & we already have permission from the US Congress to do so.
http://revisionisthistory.com/pdfs/Kesavan_Paulsen.pdf


What would you gain from division?
10 US senators, at least 7 would be Republican (for a while)
TexasScientist
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

bubbadog said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

J.B.Katz said:

Who would be president of the Lone Star Republic? Trump? Would he rule from his estate in Florida?
Nope. Trump is now a private citizen that considers himself a Floridian. You people should really let him go. The hold he STILL has on Democrat psyches is truly amazing.
You might point out that he seems to have an extremely strong hold on Republican psyches, too.

I'm thinking of the Republican congresswoman from Pennsylvania who said that she had no choice but to vote against certifying the electors unless she wanted to have her house bombed by Trump supporters.
Donald Trump is gone. He has left office. Let him go.
Tell that to Kevin McCarthy.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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Oldbear83 said:

bubbadog said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

bubbadog said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

J.B.Katz said:

Who would be president of the Lone Star Republic? Trump? Would he rule from his estate in Florida?
Nope. Trump is now a private citizen that considers himself a Floridian. You people should really let him go. The hold he STILL has on Democrat psyches is truly amazing.
You might point out that he seems to have an extremely strong hold on Republican psyches, too.

I'm thinking of the Republican congresswoman from Pennsylvania who said that she had no choice but to vote against certifying the electors unless she wanted to have her house bombed by Trump supporters.
Donald Trump is gone. He has left office. Let him go.
The Republicans can't let him go. This seems to be an accurate depiction of their relationship.


This is a lie.

The problem is not letting go of Trump, but the Democrats - if they ever can - finally accepting that the Trump Administration is a fact they cannot undo or wipe away. The behavior by so many Democrats has been just short of hysterical. Yet you obsess on Republicans, even though the Democrats hold the House and Senate and White House, and the power to address all those issues they said were so important are right there waiting to be faced.

Trump's air is attention. Ignore him and he goes away. It's the Democrats, not the Republicans, who keep pumping attention his way.

Move on, for crying out loud.

I seem to recall Democrats saying that to Trump and Trumpets about Obama. Funny how the pot calls ....
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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whiterock said:

J.B.Katz said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Midnight Rider said:

There's a certain contradiction between loving your country and wanting to secede from it.
Not at all.

This is not MY Republican Party

This is not MY Democratic Party

This is not MY Episcopal church

This is not MY Baylor University

This is not MY drug-addicted spouse

This is not MY America

All of the things listed above provide opportunities to change or influence them in a positive manner and while in a position of deeper involvement. However, at a certain point, individuals will decide for themselves that the point of positive influence no longer exist and it is time to exit that relationship. It doesn't mean that the love is gone but, it may mean that the disgust outweighs that love.
I've chosen to stay a Republican. I've been one all my life and I'm old. My party needs moderates whether the Trumpers want us or not.

I'm watching the fallout from the stunt Kelli WArd pulled in AZ with censuring Cindy McCain, jeff Flake and Doug Ducey. I was hoping Ward wouldnt be reelected and it was close but not enough.
The Democrats need the moderates, too. Please see what you can accomplish there.

Seriously. Go play with the social justice warriors for a while. perhaps it will give you new found appreciation for those you think so little of at the moment.
If mainstream normal Republicans leave the party, as some have, that leaves only the extreme radical right and a party that has no significance on a national scale.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
TexasScientist
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Osodecentx said:

TexasScientist said:

Osodecentx said:

fubar said:

Osodecentx said:

bubbadog said:

Texasjeremy said:

Keep in mind, if it were to get on the ballot and pass, they would then form a committee to spend 2 years investigating if its feasible. Think of it like Brexit, once it passed the voters it took awhile before they were able to separate themselves. Not saying they are right or wrong, but if Texas would be better off, it is at the very least worth looking into.
Let's be real about this. They don't need a committee to investigate whether secession is feasible (along with the old idea of dividing into 5 states). You could make 5 quick phone calls to constitutional law experts and get the answer, which is no.

This is not about helping the people of Texas make a more informed decision. This is just about scoring political points, and wasting taxpayer money in the process.
I think you are wrong about Texas being able to divide into 5 states.

Revisionist History has a great podcast on this. I'll track it down and post for you
I believe Texas did have that option when it was first admitted in 1845.

People seem to forget that Texas was admitted a second time, and I doubt that provision about dividing was in there that time.
This law review article says Texas can divide & we already have permission from the US Congress to do so.
http://revisionisthistory.com/pdfs/Kesavan_Paulsen.pdf


What would you gain from division?
10 US senators, at least 7 would be Republican (for a while)
They're not going to vote the same, and likely several would be Democrats if not most when you consider the states the urban areas would be allocated. Five separate states would be too weak to withstand immigration from Centra and South America. What was once Texas would become third world.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Oldbear83
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TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

bubbadog said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

bubbadog said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

J.B.Katz said:

Who would be president of the Lone Star Republic? Trump? Would he rule from his estate in Florida?
Nope. Trump is now a private citizen that considers himself a Floridian. You people should really let him go. The hold he STILL has on Democrat psyches is truly amazing.
You might point out that he seems to have an extremely strong hold on Republican psyches, too.

I'm thinking of the Republican congresswoman from Pennsylvania who said that she had no choice but to vote against certifying the electors unless she wanted to have her house bombed by Trump supporters.
Donald Trump is gone. He has left office. Let him go.
The Republicans can't let him go. This seems to be an accurate depiction of their relationship.


This is a lie.

The problem is not letting go of Trump, but the Democrats - if they ever can - finally accepting that the Trump Administration is a fact they cannot undo or wipe away. The behavior by so many Democrats has been just short of hysterical. Yet you obsess on Republicans, even though the Democrats hold the House and Senate and White House, and the power to address all those issues they said were so important are right there waiting to be faced.

Trump's air is attention. Ignore him and he goes away. It's the Democrats, not the Republicans, who keep pumping attention his way.

Move on, for crying out loud.

I seem to recall Democrats saying that to Trump and Trumpets about Obama. Funny how the pot calls ....
You have a strange imagination. Trump focused on Obama only while running against his policies. There was no long deep obsession with 'getting' Obama even after he left office.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
bubbadog
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It was only last October that Pres. Trump demanded to know why Obama and others hadn't been arrested.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/07/trump-demands-barr-arrest-foes-427389
TexasScientist
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Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

bubbadog said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

bubbadog said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

J.B.Katz said:

Who would be president of the Lone Star Republic? Trump? Would he rule from his estate in Florida?
Nope. Trump is now a private citizen that considers himself a Floridian. You people should really let him go. The hold he STILL has on Democrat psyches is truly amazing.
You might point out that he seems to have an extremely strong hold on Republican psyches, too.

I'm thinking of the Republican congresswoman from Pennsylvania who said that she had no choice but to vote against certifying the electors unless she wanted to have her house bombed by Trump supporters.
Donald Trump is gone. He has left office. Let him go.
The Republicans can't let him go. This seems to be an accurate depiction of their relationship.


This is a lie.

The problem is not letting go of Trump, but the Democrats - if they ever can - finally accepting that the Trump Administration is a fact they cannot undo or wipe away. The behavior by so many Democrats has been just short of hysterical. Yet you obsess on Republicans, even though the Democrats hold the House and Senate and White House, and the power to address all those issues they said were so important are right there waiting to be faced.

Trump's air is attention. Ignore him and he goes away. It's the Democrats, not the Republicans, who keep pumping attention his way.

Move on, for crying out loud.

I seem to recall Democrats saying that to Trump and Trumpets about Obama. Funny how the pot calls ....
You have a strange imagination. Trump focused on Obama only while running against his policies. There was no long deep obsession with 'getting' Obama even after he left office.
Actually, Trump and his allies including Limbaugh and Hannity railed against Obama well into Trump's presidency. And when they weren't talking about Obama, they were talking about HRC. I didn't like or vote for Obama, nor HRC, but there seems to be some hypocrisy here if you're going to look objectively.
“It is impossible to get a man to understand something if his livelihood depends on him not understanding.” ~ Upton Sinclair
Oldbear83
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TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

TexasScientist said:

Oldbear83 said:

bubbadog said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

bubbadog said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

J.B.Katz said:

Who would be president of the Lone Star Republic? Trump? Would he rule from his estate in Florida?
Nope. Trump is now a private citizen that considers himself a Floridian. You people should really let him go. The hold he STILL has on Democrat psyches is truly amazing.
You might point out that he seems to have an extremely strong hold on Republican psyches, too.

I'm thinking of the Republican congresswoman from Pennsylvania who said that she had no choice but to vote against certifying the electors unless she wanted to have her house bombed by Trump supporters.
Donald Trump is gone. He has left office. Let him go.
The Republicans can't let him go. This seems to be an accurate depiction of their relationship.


This is a lie.

The problem is not letting go of Trump, but the Democrats - if they ever can - finally accepting that the Trump Administration is a fact they cannot undo or wipe away. The behavior by so many Democrats has been just short of hysterical. Yet you obsess on Republicans, even though the Democrats hold the House and Senate and White House, and the power to address all those issues they said were so important are right there waiting to be faced.

Trump's air is attention. Ignore him and he goes away. It's the Democrats, not the Republicans, who keep pumping attention his way.

Move on, for crying out loud.

I seem to recall Democrats saying that to Trump and Trumpets about Obama. Funny how the pot calls ....
You have a strange imagination. Trump focused on Obama only while running against his policies. There was no long deep obsession with 'getting' Obama even after he left office.
Actually, Trump and his allies including Limbaugh and Hannity railed against Obama well into Trump's presidency. And when they weren't talking about Obama, they were talking about HRC. I didn't like or vote for Obama, nor HRC, but there seems to be some hypocrisy here if you're going to look objectively.
95% of their noise was about Hillary and that went away by the end of his first year.

The hypocrisy is selling a false equivalency.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Texasjeremy
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TexasScientist said:

Texasjeremy said:

J.B.Katz said:

Does Texas get more from the federal gvt than citizens pay in? most Southern states would cut off their nose to spite their face if they left the union and God help them if a hurricane hit them.

What all this talk doesn't consider is structures like the energy grid and the transporation grid that assume a permanent uniion, not to mention NASA's Houston operation and military bases. Yall intending just to take those over and expecting the other 49 states to hand them over without a peep? Askin for a friend.

Texas pays more into the federal government than it receives back. As for the energy grid, Texas has its own, separate from the rest of the nation.

https://tnm.me/texit/energy-environment/will-we-have-to-buy-our-electricity-from-the-u-s-after-texit

The short answer is an emphatic "NO". Here's what you need to know.

Texas both produces and consumes more electricity than any other state. Texas' abundant natural resources, including natural gas, coal and wind, are readily available to fuel our power plants.

Texas is the only one of the contiguous 48 states with its own stand-alone electricity grid, one of the three main grids in the U.S.: the Eastern Interconnection, Western Interconnection and Texas Interconnection. The Texas Interconnection, which covers 213 of the 254 Texas counties, is managed by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, or ERCOT. Portions of Texas near the state's borders are covered by the eastern and western grids.

As the independent system operator for the Texas grid, ERCOT connects more than 46,500 miles of transmission lines and more than 650 power generation facilities, providing electricity to more than 26 million customers.

ERCOT's primary responsibilities include maintaining power reliability, ensuring open access to transmission lines and facilitating competitive electricity markets. It's overseen by the Texas Public Utility Commission, which also enforces compliance with the state's utility laws and regulates Texas' electric utility rates.

In Texas, several types of entities are involved in providing electricity to end users. The current structure dates from 1999, when the Texas Legislature introduced retail competition in much of ERCOT's service area. According to ERCOT, about 75 percent of its total power load represents customers in these "competitive" areas.

In competitive areas, power generators produce electricity from fuel and sell it on the wholesale market, where it's purchased by private companies called investor-owned utilities or retail electricity providers (REPs). Texas has about 300 REPs; customers can choose among them based on pricing and various options such as an emphasis on renewable power. Electricity purchased from REPs is distributed to homes, businesses and other facilities by transmission and distribution utilities, which own the actual poles, power lines and meters.

Texans living in areas outside the ERCOT grid or in areas served by municipally-owned utilities (such as Austin Energy), electricity co-ops, and river authorities rely on a single service provider. According to the Legislative Budget Board, as of September 2019, six of Texas' 20 largest cities maintained their own utilities, the largest being San Antonio.

Texas produces more electricity than it consumes and maintains a buffer referred to as the "state's reserve margin". This margin ensures that we never have to suffer from rolling blackouts like California.

Post-TEXIT, Texas will need to transition any non-ERCOT portions of the grid to ERCOT. While the state's reserve buffer could handle it, Texas will still need to increase its power generation capabilities to ensure that we have the widest margin possible between production and consumption.

The good news is that Texas is already expanding electrical production capacity as we speak to accommodate the growth in population and the greater needs of a high-tech society.
Most of East Texas and parts of the Panhandle are connected with the Southwest Power Pool serving NW Louisiana, SW Arkansas, and Southern Oklahoma. That system is not connected to ERCOT and is not in phase with ERCOT. Things are not a simple as you think.

Nobody has said it would be simple, independence almost never is. However, I do believe it is worth letting the people of Texas decide if its even worth debating further or not.
Wrecks Quan Dough
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TexasScientist said:

J.B.Katz said:

tommie said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

bubbadog said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

Last time we tried this they shot two of my great uncles at Shiloh. I am for it
but not enough to die like they did. Damn Grant and Ape.
Not to derail this thread (although it could probably use it), but have you ever read Tony Horwitz's Confederates in the Attic? He has a great chapter about being at Shiloh before dawn on the anniversary of the battle.

My wife's uncle had a farm about 5 miles from Shiloh. The government leased out some of the land within the military park to him and other local farmers. I've walked that battlefield many times.
Not to further derail this thread, but if Texas did somehow become independent, would I now be an illegal alien if I tried to drive into the United States.

That would be a bummer, I really like NM and other states nearby.


You'd probably need a passport and see your buying power in New Mexico halfed.
What is there to buy in New Mexico?

This might give Colorado an opportunity to keep out of control Texans of the slopes by refusing to let them cross the border.
This raises another question. Can Texas reclaim its original borders taking back parts of New Mexico and Colorado? We wouldn't be a real country without an Olympic ski team.
I think we sold that land already or traded it in exchange for the feds assuming Republic of Texas debt. A deal is a deal.
J.B.Katz
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TexasScientist said:

Texasjeremy said:

https://tnm.me/texit/can/didnt-the-supreme-court-declare-secession-unconstitutional

The entire legal argument for the unconstitutionality of States leaving the Union rests on the Supreme Court's decision in the 1869 case of Texas v. White. However, when it comes to Texas v. White, more and more academics are adopting the stance of historian Dr. Brion McClanahan. When asked that very question at an academic conference in Florida, his response was an indignant, "So what?"

Dr. McClanahan's attitude toward Texas v. White is not based on a denial of facts. In fact, contrary to the concrete pronouncements by Texit detractors, the decision in Texas v. White has been debated and debunked extensively starting from the moment Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase issued the majority opinion.

The dissenting opinion, issued by Justice Robert C. Grier, highlighted many of the deficiencies of the Supreme Court's ruling, stating that he disagreed "on all points raised and decided." The assertions made by Chase were so offensive to his contemporaries that Union and Confederate sympathizers, both fresh from the battlefields and still harboring deep divisions, were united in their contempt for his ruling.

Bristling at the usurpation by the judiciary of the power to determine political questions, Lyman Trumbull, a United States senator from Illinois, introduced legislation that, in part, stated, "Under the Constitution, the judicial power of the United States does not embrace political power, or give to judicial tribunals any authority to question the political departments of the Government on political questions."

There is no doubt that Chief Justice Chase, an appointee of Abraham Lincoln, used the opportunity presented by Texas v. White to stamp a retroactive "seal of approval" on the federal government's policies and actions during the Civil War. To do so, Chase had to rewrite history and virtually all established law on the subject.

To reinforce his belief that the United States was a "perpetual union," he had to assert the ludicrous argument that the United States Constitution was merely an amending document to the previous Articles of Confederation, citing the Preamble to the Constitution. He then had to ignore that it only took 9 States of the original 13 to ratify the Constitution of 1787 and that, had less than 13 States ratified, it would have destroyed the "perpetual union" allegedly created by the Articles of Confederation.

To reinforce his assertion that the United States was an "indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States," Chase had to ignore the existence of West Virginia, and the agreement with the Republic of Texas upon its admission, that it could divide into 4 additional States and that those additional States would be guaranteed admission into the Union if they so chose.

To reinforce his assertion that States, upon entering the Union, gave up all rights of sovereignty and became incorporated in a single, monolithic superstate, Chase had to ignore every reference to the States as individual political entities in the Declaration of Independence, the aforementioned Articles of Confederation, the Northwest Ordinance, the United States Constitution, and all intent of the framers, clearly expressed in the period.

In his zeal to confirm the supremacy of the Union, Chase ascribed qualities to it that are usually reserved for deities. In effect, he equated the Union to God and established a quasi-religious orthodoxy that requires adherence to a doctrine that elevates the federal government to godhood, its three branches to the Holy Trinity, and the judiciary as its holy priesthood.

There is no doubt that, had the States been exposed to Chase's logic during deliberations over the ratification of the Constitution, they would have soundly rejected it and likely drafted a new Declaration of Independence.

The Supreme Court was not and never will be perfect. Some of the most heinous, morally reprehensible, logically flawed decisions have emanated from the Supreme Court. To imbue it with infallibility is to say that, when it upheld slave catching or when it upheld racial segregation, it was right. Yet decisions by the Court in both of those instances have been overturned.

Even Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., in the 1904 case of Northern Securities Co. v. United States, recognized that the Court could be caught up in the politics and passions of the day and render bad decisions.

"Great cases like hard cases make bad law. For great cases are called great, not by reason of their importance but because of some accident of immediate overwhelming interest which appeals to the feelings and distorts the judgment."

With all its obvious flaws, some academics continue to point to Texas v. White as the "silver bullet" that handles all questions related to States separating from the Union. However, others tend to glide over it so as not to have to acknowledge its most significant problem.

Embracing Texas v. White requires one to believe the last 150 years never happened. Since 1869, the world kept spinning. Generations have come and gone, and the Supreme Court has continued to issue rulings that chip away at the foundations of Texas v. White. As the entirety of Chase's determination is predicated on the claim that "perpetual union" is the "more perfect union" spoken of in the Preamble of the Constitution, the single ruling by the Court in the 1905 case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts, where it was determined that the federal government can gain no powers based on the Preamble, could utterly destroy Texas v. White.

The federal government's position on self-determination has evolved to the point of signing international agreements, covenants, and treaties pledging to respect the right of self-determination. The same chorus of voices who declare that Texas v. White is the "end all, be all" of decisions on the matter of self-determination of the States are the same voices who declare that subsequent rulings by the Supreme Court obligate the federal government and the States to give treaty obligations, such as those dealing with self-determination, the same weight as constitutional law and argue for its application as such.

Ultimately, though, any question of self-determination is political in nature. It is not, and never will be, a judicial question.
All of this was resolved in 1864. The rest of the country isn't going to allow Texit.
Given that Texas has gifted Congress with Ted Cruz, Louie Gohmert and a while back Tom Delay (still remember cringing when he shook his big square butt on Dancing with the Stars) among other idiots and *******s, plenty of other states would say hasta la vista baby.

But it would be a complicated divorce and at least half of Texans dont want the kind of govt Jeremy Curt and Shooter think Jesus and Trump wants yall to have.
quash
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Exactly. Get back to me when Oak Cliff and Highland Park align politically.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
J.B.Katz
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TexasScientist said:

J.B.Katz said:

tommie said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

bubbadog said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

Last time we tried this they shot two of my great uncles at Shiloh. I am for it
but not enough to die like they did. Damn Grant and Ape.
Not to derail this thread (although it could probably use it), but have you ever read Tony Horwitz's Confederates in the Attic? He has a great chapter about being at Shiloh before dawn on the anniversary of the battle.

My wife's uncle had a farm about 5 miles from Shiloh. The government leased out some of the land within the military park to him and other local farmers. I've walked that battlefield many times.
Not to further derail this thread, but if Texas did somehow become independent, would I now be an illegal alien if I tried to drive into the United States.

That would be a bummer, I really like NM and other states nearby.


You'd probably need a passport and see your buying power in New Mexico halfed.
What is there to buy in New Mexico?

This might give Colorado an opportunity to keep out of control Texans of the slopes by refusing to let them cross the border.
This raises another question. Can Texas reclaim its original borders taking back parts of New Mexico and Colorado? We wouldn't be a real country without an Olympic ski team.
Coloradans would probably give you Bohberts district.
Texasjeremy
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Texasjeremy
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https://tnm.me/texit/us-texas-relations/will-the-federal-government-use-military-force-to-stop-texit

One cannot reasonably assume that the policy of the federal government from the mid-19th century would be the policy of the federal government two decades into the 21st. There is no current federal policy regarding a State leaving the Union. However, there is current federal policy regarding states and territories leaving currently established political and economic institutions. Those policies involve neutrality or the use of military action in support of self-determination.

Imagine the scenario. Fifteen million Texans have gone to the polls and voted in a free, fair, and open referendum, conducted under the laws of the State of Texas, and have chosen, by a majority vote, to leave the Union and assert Texas' status as a free and independent self-governing nation-state. Historically, around the world, voter turnout for independence referenda is 85 to 90 percent. Taking the low end, that would mean that 12.75 million Texans would cast their vote in the referendum. Figuring the lowest possible threshold for an independence victory, approximately 6.4 million Texans would vote in favor of independence.

If the federal government opts for a military solution, how would it handle the 6.4 million Texans who voted in favor of independence? Prison? Extermination? What would the justification be for any actions taken against Texans whose sole crime was voting for self-determination in a fair, free, and open referendum? When exactly would this military intervention occur? Would they do it before a vote on Texit to prevent the people having their say? Would they wait until after the results of the vote were tallied and the results announced in favor of independence? Or would they wait until after Texas began the process of extracting itself from the federal system and began asserting its role as a nation among nations?

Under close scrutiny, it becomes apparent that the federal government will not move to stop Texit once it's been decided by the people of Texas and they most certainly won't use the military. It's just too impractical.

First, there would be little to no public support for military action against Texans who voted to leave the Union. A 2011 IBOPE Zogby poll found that 43 percent of respondents believed that States had justification for leaving the Union. For those who consider themselves conservatives, that number jumps to 65 percent. Military action against Texas, in the absence of some morally reprehensible act, would require a strong consensus from the remaining States and the people in those States. The strong liberal States would likely fall on the side of letting Texas go. The strong conservative States would be split on the issue but would largely be supportive of the basic principle of self-government. With numbers like these, a consensus seems implausible.

The use of military force would bring a swift condemnation from the international community and would damage international relations for years to come. Some countries would likely impose economic sanctions on the United States until the civilian government of Texas was restored and the results of the independence vote respected. It would also cause a tectonic shift in international policy related to the support of democratic institutions, essentially delegitimizing any efforts made by the United States past, present, and future.

You would have to believe that troops would obey an order to fire on millions of Texas civilians and their leaders whose only crime was invoking their right of self-government. With approximately 170,000 Texans serving in the United States armed forces, it would be difficult to get compliance. The ultimate irony is that any Texan in the United States military who took up arms against the lawfully elected government of Texas or its citizens would be guilty of treason under Article 1 Section 22 of the Texas Constitution.

A 2009 poll from the aforementioned Zogby showed a large number of military personnel and their families believed that States had an absolute right to leave the Union. As published in Forbes, "42% of members of the armed forces and 41% of people who have a family member active in the armed forces agree secession is a right" The fact that 42 percent view it as a right carries weight. It means they view it as a fundamental freedom, like the freedom of speech or the freedom of religion. Just as it is unlikely that the military would act against those rights when exercised by the civilian population, it is equally unlikely that they would act against Texit.

The most likely scenario, if an order of this nature was given, would be outright disobedience from the highest levels of the military all the way down to the enlisted ranks by at least 42 percent of the military, if not all. If some component of the military followed through on the order, it would likely trigger a domino effect where other States, outraged by the disregard for the political will of the people of Texas, would skip to the end of the process and unilaterally declare independence. Texas might be the first to leave but, if the federal government used the military to suppress the result, it certainly would not be the last.

Although the lack of public support and impracticality of military action are significant factors, the real reason the federal government won't stop Texas from leaving the Union is one of the most biggest drivers of federal policyeconomics.

Economies hate disruption. Texit would no doubt be disruptive, but it comes down to what is more disruptive. Ordering military intervention would be economically disruptive and would create shockwaves throughout the U.S. and global economies. Carrying out any type of military intervention would be even worse. The best course of action for the United States would be to mitigate disruption in the most practical way it canat the negotiating table. It is the most practical choice open to the federal government in dealing with a successful Texit vote.

To illustrate the oversized role that practicality plays in this arena, one only needs to look at the statements from the federal government on Brexit. In his now infamous visit to the U.K., President Obama told the British people that, if they voted to leave the European Union, the United States would place the U.K. at the "back of the queue" in negotiating a trade deal. The British people voted to leave the European Union anyway. Now the federal government is currently at the table with the U.K. laying the groundwork for a trade deal. When faced with the choice of irrationally shunning the world's fifth largest economy, with a GDP only $1 trillion greater than Texas or rationally executing a trade deal, the federal government chose the practical route.

It is far easier to negotiate a free trade agreement with a Texas that's on its way out the door than it is to militarily occupy its capital in Austin. It is easier to negotiate a currency union with Texas than it is to deal with the possibility of massive insubordination in your military. With a negotiated separation, the federal government has the opportunity to show that it believes in the principles that it has espoused around the world for the last 70 years. It is better to keep goods and services flowing than to have them come to a dead stop. Forced integration into the Union at the point of a gun invites international condemnation and the loss of credibility on the international stage for the next 70 years.
curtpenn
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TexasScientist said:

Carlos Safety said:

D. C. Bear said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

J.B.Katz said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Midnight Rider said:

There's a certain contradiction between loving your country and wanting to secede from it.
Not at all.

This is not MY Republican Party

This is not MY Democratic Party

This is not MY Episcopal church

This is not MY Baylor University

This is not MY drug-addicted spouse

This is not MY America

All of the things listed above provide opportunities to change or influence them in a positive manner and while in a position of deeper involvement. However, at a certain point, individuals will decide for themselves that the point of positive influence no longer exist and it is time to exit that relationship. It doesn't mean that the love is gone but, it may mean that the disgust outweighs that love.
I've chosen to stay a Republican. I've been one all my life and I'm old. My party needs moderates whether the Trumpers want us or not.

I'm watching the fallout from the stunt Kelli WArd pulled in AZ with censuring Cindy McCain, jeff Flake and Doug Ducey. I was hoping Ward wouldnt be reelected and it was close but not enough.

Tough decisions require and ABSOLUTELY deserve extreme contemplation. No fault divorce is a bad thing. No fault Texit would be worse.


There is no legal mechanism for leaving the union.
I don't think there needs to be anything in writing providing for a split. It is a basic right that if a people no longer want to be part of the existing political, social compact, then they should be free to leave. Our Founding Fathers did not wait for Parliament to approve their decision to divorce from Great Britain. If Texas wants to have a Texodus, then we are allowed as a free people to exit the existing political and social compact we have with what have become our masters in DC.
That's what Texas thought in 1861. The rest of the country isn't going to look at it any different in 2021. And what if Mexico decides it want's its territory back?


What if Spain decides it wants its territory back?

Political power grows from the barrel of a gun. - Mao
Texasjeremy
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https://tnm.me/texit/referendum/how-do-we-avoid-losing-our-independence-vote-like-scotland-did-in-2014

Leading up to the passage of the referendum bill and through to the actual vote, the debate will be vigorous. However, until there is a vote, there will be no honest debate on the issue of Texit. To quote Weston Martinez, "You have to have the vote to have the conversation."

Ultimately, the success or failure of Texit at the polls will be determined by the scope of the debate and the strategy used by each side to convince Texans to choose to leave or remain. In any debate on Texit, the side advocating for maintaining the status quo has a near insurmountable task. They essentially have to argue that all of the reasons that created enough political momentum to actually have a vote to leave still aren't bad enough to leave. This puts them in the unenviable position of having to dismiss the legitimate concerns of virtually every Texan. At a minimum, if they acknowledge that legitimate concerns exist, they have to show that there is a reasonable and viable path to addressing these concerns within the federal system. Again, given the attitude that Texas voters have about the feasibility of reforming the federal system, this puts them at a severe disadvantage.

This is why, so often, you see the advocates of the status quo attempting to redirect the debate to focus voters on the uncertainty posed by abandoning the status quo. By shifting the debate in this way, it baits those who are seeking self-determination into explicitly declaring post-independence policies that are then tied to the referendum. For those advocating for Texit, it is important to avoid this pitfall that became a major factor in the rejection of independence by Scottish voters.

One of the biggest mistakes made by the Scottish National Party in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum came in the form of a white paper produced by the SNP-dominated government, called Scotland's Future. The purpose of the 670-page tome was to create, in the words of First Minister Alex Salmond, the "most comprehensive blueprint for an independent country ever published."

Within its pages, it attempted to do that very thing. It contained 200 pages of answers to the most commonly asked questions about Scottish independence, and specifically addressed some of the more complex issues related to citizenship, travel, currency, and debt. However, it went further by advocating for post-independence policies that were staples of SNP campaigns in Scotland for years. This is where it went off the rails. While many hailed the ambition of the document and lauded the effort for moving the independence conversation forward, others, particularly voters, saw it more as a post-independence SNP election manifesto.

With the publication of the white paper, the debate over Scotland's independence shifted. The points of contention no longer centered on the viability and practicality of an independent Scotland. Rather, the conversation became infinitely more complicated as the focus of contention became about the post-independence policies of the SNP.

Sensing an opening, the Better Together campaign pounced on an opportunity to tie the entire issue of Scotland's independence on the governance of the SNP and the popularity of its specific policy positions. Suddenly their messaging shifted from "independence is a bad idea" to "a vote for independence is a vote for the SNP."

The SNP was then forced into a two-front war, having to defend its policies while simultaneously trying to advocate for independence. After all, that's what political parties do. They advance policy proposals based on the principles of their party. In doing so, the SNP fell into a trap of its own making and subverted the most attractive benefit of independence the opportunity to create something new.

They promised a concrete, fixed future that didn't yet exist and created in the minds of the voters the notion that Scottish independence was merely an extension of current SNP governance. The voters were aware of what the future looked like if they stayed in the United Kingdom. The boundless and unlimited opportunity presented by the right of self-government, to remake the future in their image, was stolen from Scottish voters by the introduction of the white paper.

Although it was not the primary cause of the defeat of the Scottish referendum, this played a major role in the final result. The clue is in the numbers. The SNP received 44.04 percent of the votes in the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections. The 'Yes' vote in the 2014 independence referendum received 44.7 percent. If the majority of Texit advocates can avoid this trap, they are in the proverbial "catbird seat." However, this debate will not be the normal partisan bickering we are all used to. It will create very strange bedfellows as the battle lines become clearly drawn.

For Texit to win the debate, it will have to be able to clearly articulate why staying in the Union is no longer an option and, with exceptional discipline, key in on the opportunity that can exist in an independent Texas, promising nothing other than giving Texans their first chance at self-government in their entire lives. Given the broad patchwork of people and interests that will be working for Texit, all would do well to remember the saying, "Only a fool fights in a burning house."
LIB,MR BEARS
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TexasScientist said:

Osodecentx said:

fubar said:

Osodecentx said:

bubbadog said:

Texasjeremy said:

Keep in mind, if it were to get on the ballot and pass, they would then form a committee to spend 2 years investigating if its feasible. Think of it like Brexit, once it passed the voters it took awhile before they were able to separate themselves. Not saying they are right or wrong, but if Texas would be better off, it is at the very least worth looking into.
Let's be real about this. They don't need a committee to investigate whether secession is feasible (along with the old idea of dividing into 5 states). You could make 5 quick phone calls to constitutional law experts and get the answer, which is no.

This is not about helping the people of Texas make a more informed decision. This is just about scoring political points, and wasting taxpayer money in the process.
I think you are wrong about Texas being able to divide into 5 states.

Revisionist History has a great podcast on this. I'll track it down and post for you
I believe Texas did have that option when it was first admitted in 1845.

People seem to forget that Texas was admitted a second time, and I doubt that provision about dividing was in there that time.
This law review article says Texas can divide & we already have permission from the US Congress to do so.
http://revisionisthistory.com/pdfs/Kesavan_Paulsen.pdf


What would you gain from division?
I'm not at the point I'm willing to secede but, I think the details need to be looked at now to see what we'd be up against during and after Texit. I think it's akin to reviewing your options before removing that benign tumor.
LIB,MR BEARS
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TexasScientist said:

J.B.Katz said:

Who would be president of the Lone Star Republic? Trump? Would he rule from his estate in Florida? Or would Texas become a haven so he wouldn't be extradited to other states to face criminal charges.

Ken Paxton and Dan Patrick are still working for the state of Texas. Not a good sign if the successionistas intend to stick with current management.

This would get Cruz and Cornyn out of the SEnate. Cruz is a dick and you boys can have him, Cornyn merely a disappointment who leans whatever way the wind's blowing.
Trump wants to be a dictator. Here's his chance. He'll only just have to kick Allen West out of his way.
Pull the chain, push the handle, WHATEVER. Just please quit staring at and commenting on the **** in the bowl. Strange fetish you have.
LIB,MR BEARS
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TexasScientist said:

J.B.Katz said:

tommie said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

bubbadog said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

Last time we tried this they shot two of my great uncles at Shiloh. I am for it
but not enough to die like they did. Damn Grant and Ape.
Not to derail this thread (although it could probably use it), but have you ever read Tony Horwitz's Confederates in the Attic? He has a great chapter about being at Shiloh before dawn on the anniversary of the battle.

My wife's uncle had a farm about 5 miles from Shiloh. The government leased out some of the land within the military park to him and other local farmers. I've walked that battlefield many times.
Not to further derail this thread, but if Texas did somehow become independent, would I now be an illegal alien if I tried to drive into the United States.

That would be a bummer, I really like NM and other states nearby.


You'd probably need a passport and see your buying power in New Mexico halfed.
What is there to buy in New Mexico?

This might give Colorado an opportunity to keep out of control Texans of the slopes by refusing to let them cross the border.
This raises another question. Can Texas reclaim its original borders taking back parts of New Mexico and Colorado? We wouldn't be a real country without an Olympic ski team.
you're a scientist, not a comedian. Quit sniffing the beaker.
Redbrickbear
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TexasScientist said:

Texasjeremy said:

https://tnm.me/texit/can/didnt-the-supreme-court-declare-secession-unconstitutional

The entire legal argument for the unconstitutionality of States leaving the Union rests on the Supreme Court's decision in the 1869 case of Texas v. White. However, when it comes to Texas v. White, more and more academics are adopting the stance of historian Dr. Brion McClanahan. When asked that very question at an academic conference in Florida, his response was an indignant, "So what?"

Dr. McClanahan's attitude toward Texas v. White is not based on a denial of facts. In fact, contrary to the concrete pronouncements by Texit detractors, the decision in Texas v. White has been debated and debunked extensively starting from the moment Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase issued the majority opinion.

The dissenting opinion, issued by Justice Robert C. Grier, highlighted many of the deficiencies of the Supreme Court's ruling, stating that he disagreed "on all points raised and decided." The assertions made by Chase were so offensive to his contemporaries that Union and Confederate sympathizers, both fresh from the battlefields and still harboring deep divisions, were united in their contempt for his ruling.

Bristling at the usurpation by the judiciary of the power to determine political questions, Lyman Trumbull, a United States senator from Illinois, introduced legislation that, in part, stated, "Under the Constitution, the judicial power of the United States does not embrace political power, or give to judicial tribunals any authority to question the political departments of the Government on political questions."

There is no doubt that Chief Justice Chase, an appointee of Abraham Lincoln, used the opportunity presented by Texas v. White to stamp a retroactive "seal of approval" on the federal government's policies and actions during the Civil War. To do so, Chase had to rewrite history and virtually all established law on the subject.

To reinforce his belief that the United States was a "perpetual union," he had to assert the ludicrous argument that the United States Constitution was merely an amending document to the previous Articles of Confederation, citing the Preamble to the Constitution. He then had to ignore that it only took 9 States of the original 13 to ratify the Constitution of 1787 and that, had less than 13 States ratified, it would have destroyed the "perpetual union" allegedly created by the Articles of Confederation.

To reinforce his assertion that the United States was an "indestructible Union, composed of indestructible States," Chase had to ignore the existence of West Virginia, and the agreement with the Republic of Texas upon its admission, that it could divide into 4 additional States and that those additional States would be guaranteed admission into the Union if they so chose.

To reinforce his assertion that States, upon entering the Union, gave up all rights of sovereignty and became incorporated in a single, monolithic superstate, Chase had to ignore every reference to the States as individual political entities in the Declaration of Independence, the aforementioned Articles of Confederation, the Northwest Ordinance, the United States Constitution, and all intent of the framers, clearly expressed in the period.

In his zeal to confirm the supremacy of the Union, Chase ascribed qualities to it that are usually reserved for deities. In effect, he equated the Union to God and established a quasi-religious orthodoxy that requires adherence to a doctrine that elevates the federal government to godhood, its three branches to the Holy Trinity, and the judiciary as its holy priesthood.

There is no doubt that, had the States been exposed to Chase's logic during deliberations over the ratification of the Constitution, they would have soundly rejected it and likely drafted a new Declaration of Independence.

The Supreme Court was not and never will be perfect. Some of the most heinous, morally reprehensible, logically flawed decisions have emanated from the Supreme Court. To imbue it with infallibility is to say that, when it upheld slave catching or when it upheld racial segregation, it was right. Yet decisions by the Court in both of those instances have been overturned.

Even Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., in the 1904 case of Northern Securities Co. v. United States, recognized that the Court could be caught up in the politics and passions of the day and render bad decisions.

"Great cases like hard cases make bad law. For great cases are called great, not by reason of their importance but because of some accident of immediate overwhelming interest which appeals to the feelings and distorts the judgment."

With all its obvious flaws, some academics continue to point to Texas v. White as the "silver bullet" that handles all questions related to States separating from the Union. However, others tend to glide over it so as not to have to acknowledge its most significant problem.

Embracing Texas v. White requires one to believe the last 150 years never happened. Since 1869, the world kept spinning. Generations have come and gone, and the Supreme Court has continued to issue rulings that chip away at the foundations of Texas v. White. As the entirety of Chase's determination is predicated on the claim that "perpetual union" is the "more perfect union" spoken of in the Preamble of the Constitution, the single ruling by the Court in the 1905 case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts, where it was determined that the federal government can gain no powers based on the Preamble, could utterly destroy Texas v. White.

The federal government's position on self-determination has evolved to the point of signing international agreements, covenants, and treaties pledging to respect the right of self-determination. The same chorus of voices who declare that Texas v. White is the "end all, be all" of decisions on the matter of self-determination of the States are the same voices who declare that subsequent rulings by the Supreme Court obligate the federal government and the States to give treaty obligations, such as those dealing with self-determination, the same weight as constitutional law and argue for its application as such.

Ultimately, though, any question of self-determination is political in nature. It is not, and never will be, a judicial question.
All of this was resolved in 1864. The rest of the country isn't going to allow Texit.

I thought the idea of of Independence and secession was settled in 1776?

Its a good thing. All the founding fathers were for it.
bubbadog
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

TexasScientist said:

Osodecentx said:

fubar said:

Osodecentx said:

bubbadog said:

Texasjeremy said:

Keep in mind, if it were to get on the ballot and pass, they would then form a committee to spend 2 years investigating if its feasible. Think of it like Brexit, once it passed the voters it took awhile before they were able to separate themselves. Not saying they are right or wrong, but if Texas would be better off, it is at the very least worth looking into.
Let's be real about this. They don't need a committee to investigate whether secession is feasible (along with the old idea of dividing into 5 states). You could make 5 quick phone calls to constitutional law experts and get the answer, which is no.

This is not about helping the people of Texas make a more informed decision. This is just about scoring political points, and wasting taxpayer money in the process.
I think you are wrong about Texas being able to divide into 5 states.

Revisionist History has a great podcast on this. I'll track it down and post for you
I believe Texas did have that option when it was first admitted in 1845.

People seem to forget that Texas was admitted a second time, and I doubt that provision about dividing was in there that time.
This law review article says Texas can divide & we already have permission from the US Congress to do so.
http://revisionisthistory.com/pdfs/Kesavan_Paulsen.pdf


What would you gain from division?
I'm not at the point I'm willing to secede but, I think the details need to be looked at now to see what we'd be up against during and after Texit. I think it's akin to reviewing your options before removing that benign tumor.
Since this all speculative anyway, I'll go ahead and speculate what would happen in the wake of a Texit:

Texas would immediately become a lot more like Mexico than a lot of Texans would like: poorer, weaker, and with a worse quality of life for many of its citizens.

Poorer: Texas is a net recipient of federal money, receiving more back from Washington than it contributes in taxes. State's economy still heavily affected by oil prices -- not a great industry to bet on for the long term, especially with GM's announcement yesterday.

Weaker: US military pullout from Ft. Hood, Ft. Bliss, AF bases in San Antonio, Brook Army Medical Center removes a lot of jobs and economic infusion now coming into the state. Besides Texas now having to foot the bill for its own defense, I presume the state would have to negotiate to purchase the land for those bases.

Quality of life: In Texas, 4.4 million people (mostly children) received Medicaid assistance. Somehow I doubt that independent Texas would provide anything close to the social safety net that people now have. That may be just fine with a majority of Texans, but it means they'll also have to live with more people on the margins, with poorer health outcomes, etc. Would Texans lose their Social Security and Medicare benefits that they've paid into the system but haven't accessed yet? Those could be negotiated in some type of Texit treaty, but if Texas simply votes to secede, I don't see that Congress is obliged to give that money back.
 
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