BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Thee University said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Thee University said:I told you about my two attorney friends and what their daughters told them over their Freshman year Chistmas holidays.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Thee University said:I never said ALL of the allegations were true.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Yes, faulty premise. Your "what if it were your daughter" argument is assuming that all the allegations being thrown out there are true, and that Art Briles is to blame, neither of which has been proven, except perhaps only in the court of public opinion where innuendo, allegations in lawsuit filings, out of context text messages, biased reporting, and the opinions of "professional victims" serve as "proof". So by assuming the truth of your disputed conclusion in your premise, in essence you're begging the question.
Here in this last post you seem to be offering your past experience and personal bias as proof of your premise, (which by the way is yet another fallacy). Though your experience gives you a lot more insight than others, and while it may be pertinent to your team back then, you really haven't offered anything that directly pertains to the team at hand, except for what two friends of yours said. While I don't have any reason to doubt them, at best this is just anecdotal evidence based on hearsay. In contrast, however, I offered an actual documented example of the volleyball player to challenge your premise that Briles is definitely to blame and is therefore deserving of all the animus being directed at him, as if he was the Grim Raper himself. But here we have an actual victim, from the actual case where "Briles knew of a rape but didn't report it", who doesn't seem to blame Briles, but rather, seems to be generally supportive of him, even praising him personally and for how he handled the situation, and defending him against the rampant criticism.
I certainly don't expect you or anyone else to fully change your mind because of this, but I think mitigating pieces of evidence like this should at least temper the extremist stance against Briles that too many here have firmly entrenched themselves in. Extremist stances, such as saying to those who defend Briles, "You now accept the collateral damage (as long as it is not your daughter getting assaulted, roughed up or generally raped) as OK and your savior coach was framed."- which not only is begging the question again, but also it does nothing for the debate/discussion except to antagonize and falsely defame.
I never said Art was the sole person to blame.
Go back and craft a new masterpiece of response. I salute your effort but you are chasing another premise. Not mine.
You were incapable of understanding my own personal Baylor Football experiences. Only the names and faces change from year to year. How you mange and discipline those interchangeable parts is what makes the difference. I refuse to cite and detail actual events and most certainly won't divulge names. The point remains, the difference is that most teams understand and obey rules, laws and structure. These teams have many of the same characters and "problems" other teams have. However, a strong dose of discipline, understanding the mission statement, the history of the institution, the goals of the institution and just that fact that Baylor is the largest Baptist University in the world and truly expects more out of their students and student/athletes got lost somewhere.
I suggest that my stance is not extremest but that of a realist tempered with a dose of personal experience in environments of "characters" that just about every single college football team in America possess. It only took a little bit of extra effort for Art to protect his kingdom and his legacy. It seemed to me that he almost did not care about the collateral damage done to Baylor during his planned short stint in Waco.
I'm not antagonizing Art. He feathered his own nest. He knew how the game was played. He is not stupid. He knew that it was only a matter of time before some of authority at Baylor stepped in and put an end to his lackadaisical approach to disciplining his problem kids. The only thing that postponed this implosion a year or two was that Art brought wins to a program that was the 98 lb weakling for so many years. The Baylor bluebloods held their noses for as long as they could but everyone has a limit.
I did not say that you said Briles was the sole person to blame. And whether or not you said ALL the allegations are true is beside the point. These do not nullify your fallacy of begging the question. Implicit in your "what if it were your daughter" argument is the assumption that enough of the allegations are true, and that Briles is enough to blame. Of course, what constitutes as being "enough" is subjective and debatable, but therein lies the point- you haven't established either, but you assume its truth in your argument.
Like it or not, whenever you or anyone else uses the "what if it were your daughter" argument or other renditions of this argument, such as "we're ok with rape as long as Briles wins" as you did in your previous post, that is your premise and you are begging the question. It's a bad argument, so I'd stop using it.
What I have not told you is about another friend (Baylor grad) who said his daughter was constantly "stalked" by a particular player (player did not last 4 years) and it got very uncomfortable for her on a couple of occasions. She did absolutely nothing to warrant this "situation" and none of these "situations" took place at late night/early morning parties because she knew better than to put herself in that bad environment due to reputations of these gatherings.
What if it was your daughter? Would you have a little bit different attitude towards the girls that were obviously assaulted in a very un-Baylor like fashion or is this collateral damage OK with you?
For the record, let me first point out that your "collateral damage" remark is begging the question yet again. So far you have not proven or shown why this incident was the responsibility of anyone else except the player himself.
For the sake of the argument let's assume this story is true. In order for me to explain what I would do or feel if this were my daughter, I'd like to know a bit more. Can you expound upon the details a little further? Can you explain how he stalked her? What was it that made her very uncomfortable? Was she threatened? Did she or anyone report it? To whom?
Who recruited these bad apples? Who coached them every day and could see personalities blooming? Who relied on these "animals" to play for Baylor on Saturdays? Who staked their career advancement on specific players, some who have proven to be "bad dudes"? Would ANY of these players accused and those guilty have even been on the Baylor campus had Art or one of his coaches not gone out and signed them?????
PLAYERS AND THEIR ACTIONS ARE A DIRECT REFLECTION OF THE COACHING STAFF!!!!!!!!!!!!
I expected your pitiful answer. You still can't and won't answer the legitimate question. You don't need more info. Your daughter is raped or assaulted by one of Art's "bad dudes" (his words, not mine). What are you waiting for Father of the Year?
With fans and supporters like you it is no wonder Art is where he is today.
How do I know he was a "bad apple" they recruited? Shouldn't you tell me more about his recruitment? Was he a problem recruit? Did he have a problem history in high school? Did the coaches know about it?
Shouldn't you tell me more about this "stalking" incident to verify he is an "animal" that Briles used to "advance his career?" That he is indeed one of Briles' "bad dudes"?? Can we at least establish first, that your stalking charge has actual merit, before we start judging? Was it reported to the coaches? Did they try to do anything about it?
Or, should we simply take at face value that a coach determines every action of every player and therefore we should just blame the coach for this player's ALLEGED stalking, without even bothering to examine the case?!
I don't disagree with you that coaches can play a significant part in how their players behave, but so do his parents, peers, pop culture, and the media. And I'm not even saying that Art Briles is innocent. If the facts and sound logic show you to be right in all this, then so be it! But....
CAN WE HAVE ACTUAL EVIDENCE AND FACTS BEFORE WE DESTROY SOMEONE'S CAREER AND REPUTATION!!!!!
And yet, you refuse this! THAT's what's pitiful, sir, not my answer.
Yes, I CAN and WILL answer whatever you want me to answer, and YES, I do need more info. It's called being FAIR. Your refusal to engage me with the facts behind this allegation tells us everything, and it makes your stance lose all credibility. I certainly see why you are so highly criticized in this forum.
Guilty because Thee says so? Welcome everyone, Thee's Kangaroo Court is now in session!!
Art destroyed his own career! Aren't you family?
I'm not looking for any answers from you. I have my sources and I am certainly not giving you any names of women who experienced first hand the "bad dudes" Art turned loose on the Baylor campus.
Blaming pop culture? Media?
I have a number of friends that will forever be ashamed of Art's infamous 2015 "Mall Fight" which showcased the thuggery present on the Baylor team against one of the worst UT teams in modern history. I saw evidence of problems years before 2015.
3A may be too good for him.
"The education of a man is never completed until he dies." - General Robert E. Lee
