BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BearWithMe said:

---

Quote:

---

The bible teaches man is without excuse because of what has been revealed through nature, and I agree completely with this.

I truly believe that all people see teleological purpose and design in nature and in our existence, including in our consciousness which allows us to sense and appreciate it all. If they say they don't, they just aren't being honest with themselves. No offense, but I believe that to be true.

---

How can we have a fruitful conversation if you simply reject my position by stating I'm not being honest with myself? No offense taken, but if you genuinely believe this, I'm not sure there even is a discussion to be had on this.

I believe you when you say you have strong belief, faith, and convictions in your creator and savior, but I also extend the same courtesy to those of other religions (or lack thereof).

Quote:

---

What's hard to understand about not being in the position to judge God morally? Suppose a supreme Being exists - would we know what He knows? If we criticize God, we're only judging him down at our level. It'd be like a toddler criticizing his adult parents for not allowing him to eat candy all the time. What if there is eternal good that comes from temporary suffering, that God knows about but we don't? Without that knowledge, can we justly criticize Him?

---

Sure, suppose a supreme being exists who created this universe. We have absolutely no mechanisms to determine if this being is truly all powerful, all knowing, or all loving. Some may have hope and faith that they are, but there is objectively no way to have knowledge of this.

In this scenario, I see no issue with using the information you have and your faculties to do your best to gauge the character of this being. Just because one is a child doesn't mean they can't point out what seems immoral.

---

We can't really have a fruitful conversation if we're not being honest with each other, and I'm just being honest with you about my position - I truly believe those who don't see reason, purpose, and design in our existence are, for whatever reason, in denial. I don't understand why telling you this would block a fruitful conversation. Would you rather I had lied to you about my position?

The only alternative to there being reason, purpose, and design is that there is NO reason, purpose, or design. This means that our whole existence, even our consciousnes, arose from an incomprehensibly fortunate series of purely accidental, random, and unguided processes. Do you honestly believe this? Do you believe that somehow physics just popped into existence and through this incomprehensibly fortunate process ultimately became aware of itself?

Sure, you can use the information and faculties you have to judge a Supreme Being, but unless you're on the same level of knowledge as Him, you're only judging Him down at your level, like a toddler judging his adult parents. So how can you really know if His actions are "unjust"? That's my point. We can't and don't know it. Saying that you do is saying you know as much as the Supreme Being, which is quite presumptuous, isn't it?

---

No, sorry - I wouldn't want you to be anything but honest. It's just that I've never encountered a situation in a philosophical discussion where someone outright mentioned that 'those who don't share my position are in denial.' We seem to have a misunderstanding though, as I stated I do not find God in nature - not that I do not find reason and purpose. To you those may be intertwined, but that is not necessarily a universal experience.

When it comes to the existence of reason, purpose, and design in our universe, I think the crux of our disagreement might be in how we interpret the evidence and phenomena before us. I respect your view that sees a divine hand as the only explanation for the complexity and order we observe. However, from my perspective, the absence of a detectable design does not necessarily mean our existence is devoid of wonder or significance. Rather, it opens up a different kind of appreciation for the universe and our place within it.

The concept that everything arose from 'accidental, random, and unguided processes' might seem unsettling at first glance, but it's also possible to see it as a remarkable testament to the vastness and the inherent potential of the natural laws. To me, acknowledging that we may not yet fully understand these processes does not diminish the awe of existence; it enhances it. It suggests that through our consciousness and ability to wonder, we're part of something profoundly intricate and beautiful, even if it's not explicitly designed with us in mind.

The question of physics becoming aware of itself is a poetic way to describe consciousness arising from inanimate matter, and it's indeed a mystery that we're far from fully unraveling. However, the pursuit of understanding that process through science and philosophy is, in itself, a source of meaning and purpose for many, including me.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

Hey Interrogator, rather than demanding other people answer your questions, why don't you freely offer up your own complete view of faith, works, and salvation?

Don't be shy.

---

The issue though is when people criticize, but then won't answer direct questions.

---

I will ask you the same questions I'm asking them. Could you give your answer to these?:s

1) If the thief on the cross had not verbally expressed his faith or rebuked the other thief, but instead believed those things in his heart - would he have been saved?

2) Was the house of Cornelius saved when they heard the gospel, believed, and the Holy Spirit entered them?

---

1) The Thief on the cross was saved before he confessed he was a sinner and asked Jesus to save Him, this an outward expression of Faith in Jesus Christ. After Christ rose from the dead, he would have been required to believe that Jesus died and rose again as a Sacrifice for his sins. Would he have been saved if he believed these things in his heart? I think he would have been..The Bible says that it is by believing (Faith) that we are saved, but I think it is best to express that Faith openly to God from your mouth as he did.

Romans 10:9-10 NKJV
[9] "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

2) Yes the House of Cornelius was truly saved when they heard, believed and the Holy Spirit dwelled in them. You can't have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you and not be saved.

Romans 8:14 KJV
[14]" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. "

---

Ok, good answers, and thanks for demonstrating how to actually answer a question.

Your answer #1 is interesting yet confusing. So when was the thief "saved" - when he believed Jesus in his heart while both he and Jesus were still alive on their crosses, or not until AFTER Jesus later died and then rose from the dead?

---

Right then when he believed in His heart. Later, after the Resurrection, those under Grace were required to believe in the death and resurrection for of salvation. Before the cross it was who Jesus was, the Messiah of Israel.

---

I think this is correct. The thief believed in Jesus' Kingdom message to the Jews as their Messiah - he said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". And Jesus saved him for that belief. The thief, as far as we know, had no knowledge that Jesus was going to die to pay for sin and then rise again. No one did, not even Jesus' own disciples at the time, even given that Jesus told them what was going to happen. What we believe today (the Church Age) for salvation includes Jesus death and resurrection, since it happened. There seems to be a lot of truth behind dispensationalism.

---

Rarely do I find ANYONE who understands this as you do. I agree . Have you ever listened to Through The Bible with Les Feldick? He is one of the greatest Bible teachers I have ever heard and is a Mid Acts Dispensationalist.

BearWithMe said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BearWithMe said:

---

Quote:

---

The bible teaches man is without excuse because of what has been revealed through nature, and I agree completely with this.

I truly believe that all people see teleological purpose and design in nature and in our existence, including in our consciousness which allows us to sense and appreciate it all. If they say they don't, they just aren't being honest with themselves. No offense, but I believe that to be true.

---

How can we have a fruitful conversation if you simply reject my position by stating I'm not being honest with myself? No offense taken, but if you genuinely believe this, I'm not sure there even is a discussion to be had on this.

I believe you when you say you have strong belief, faith, and convictions in your creator and savior, but I also extend the same courtesy to those of other religions (or lack thereof).

Quote:

---

What's hard to understand about not being in the position to judge God morally? Suppose a supreme Being exists - would we know what He knows? If we criticize God, we're only judging him down at our level. It'd be like a toddler criticizing his adult parents for not allowing him to eat candy all the time. What if there is eternal good that comes from temporary suffering, that God knows about but we don't? Without that knowledge, can we justly criticize Him?

---

Sure, suppose a supreme being exists who created this universe. We have absolutely no mechanisms to determine if this being is truly all powerful, all knowing, or all loving. Some may have hope and faith that they are, but there is objectively no way to have knowledge of this.

In this scenario, I see no issue with using the information you have and your faculties to do your best to gauge the character of this being. Just because one is a child doesn't mean they can't point out what seems immoral.

---

We can't really have a fruitful conversation if we're not being honest with each other, and I'm just being honest with you about my position - I truly believe those who don't see reason, purpose, and design in our existence are, for whatever reason, in denial. I don't understand why telling you this would block a fruitful conversation. Would you rather I had lied to you about my position?

The only alternative to there being reason, purpose, and design is that there is NO reason, purpose, or design. This means that our whole existence, even our consciousnes, arose from an incomprehensibly fortunate series of purely accidental, random, and unguided processes. Do you honestly believe this? Do you believe that somehow physics just popped into existence and through this incomprehensibly fortunate process ultimately became aware of itself?

Sure, you can use the information and faculties you have to judge a Supreme Being, but unless you're on the same level of knowledge as Him, you're only judging Him down at your level, like a toddler judging his adult parents. So how can you really know if His actions are "unjust"? That's my point. We can't and don't know it. Saying that you do is saying you know as much as the Supreme Being, which is quite presumptuous, isn't it?

---

No, sorry - I wouldn't want you to be anything but honest. It's just that I've never encountered a situation in a philosophical discussion where someone outright mentioned that 'those who don't share my position are in denial.' We seem to have a misunderstanding though, as I stated I do not find God in nature - not that I do not find reason and purpose. To you those may be intertwined, but that is not necessarily a universal experience.

When it comes to the existence of reason, purpose, and design in our universe, I think the crux of our disagreement might be in how we interpret the evidence and phenomena before us. I respect your view that sees a divine hand as the only explanation for the complexity and order we observe. However, from my perspective, the absence of a detectable design does not necessarily mean our existence is devoid of wonder or significance. Rather, it opens up a different kind of appreciation for the universe and our place within it.

The concept that everything arose from 'accidental, random, and unguided processes' might seem unsettling at first glance, but it's also possible to see it as a remarkable testament to the vastness and the inherent potential of the natural laws. To me, acknowledging that we may not yet fully understand these processes does not diminish the awe of existence; it enhances it. It suggests that through our consciousness and ability to wonder, we're part of something profoundly intricate and beautiful, even if it's not explicitly designed with us in mind.

The question of physics becoming aware of itself is a poetic way to describe consciousness arising from inanimate matter, and it's indeed a mystery that we're far from fully unraveling. However, the pursuit of understanding that process through science and philosophy is, in itself, a source of meaning and purpose for many, including me.

---

The fact is, any Christian HAS to take my position that those who don't see reason, purpose, and design in nature (the universe, earth, life) are in denial, because that is what the bible says. A Christian believes the bible to be the Word of God, so he/she believes that position is coming straight from God himself. Whether an actual Christian will tell you this directly, well, that's going to depend on the Christian. I personally will not hold back what I believe is a truth that someone's eternal destiny depends on.

You got it wrong - the "crux" of the matter is NOT our interpretation. The crux is that we're even able to interpret anything to begin with. You casually acknowledge the existence of our minds and our consciousness, from which we are able to wonder and "awe", and appreciate "intricacy" and "beauty" of the natural universe we find ourselves in. Well, did physics pop into existence, and ultimately became aware of itself and the "beauty" and "mystery" of it's existence? Can you honestly tell me in your heart of hearts, that you believe this to be possible beyond an infinitesimally miniscule, incomprehensible unlikelihood? This isn't just rhetorical, I would actually like to hear a direct answer.

You stated that you do find reason and purpose to nature and our existence - this suggests a giver or designer of that reason and purpose, does it not? Doesn't teleology point to a Mind? It seems you are suppressing yourself from following through with the logic. This is what I mean by denial and not being honest with yourself.

Osodecentx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

Hey Interrogator, rather than demanding other people answer your questions, why don't you freely offer up your own complete view of faith, works, and salvation?

Don't be shy.

---

The issue though is when people criticize, but then won't answer direct questions.

---

I will ask you the same questions I'm asking them. Could you give your answer to these?:s

1) If the thief on the cross had not verbally expressed his faith or rebuked the other thief, but instead believed those things in his heart - would he have been saved?

2) Was the house of Cornelius saved when they heard the gospel, believed, and the Holy Spirit entered them?

---

1) The Thief on the cross was saved before he confessed he was a sinner and asked Jesus to save Him, this an outward expression of Faith in Jesus Christ. After Christ rose from the dead, he would have been required to believe that Jesus died and rose again as a Sacrifice for his sins. Would he have been saved if he believed these things in his heart? I think he would have been..The Bible says that it is by believing (Faith) that we are saved, but I think it is best to express that Faith openly to God from your mouth as he did.

Romans 10:9-10 NKJV
[9] "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

2) Yes the House of Cornelius was truly saved when they heard, believed and the Holy Spirit dwelled in them. You can't have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you and not be saved.

Romans 8:14 KJV
[14]" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. "

---

Ok, good answers, and thanks for demonstrating how to actually answer a question.

Your answer #1 is interesting yet confusing. So when was the thief "saved" - when he believed Jesus in his heart while both he and Jesus were still alive on their crosses, or not until AFTER Jesus later died and then rose from the dead?

---

Right then when he believed in His heart. Later, after the Resurrection, those under Grace were required to believe in the death and resurrection for of salvation. Before the cross it was who Jesus was, the Messiah of Israel.

---

I think this is correct. The thief believed in Jesus' Kingdom message to the Jews as their Messiah - he said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". And Jesus saved him for that belief. The thief, as far as we know, had no knowledge that Jesus was going to die to pay for sin and then rise again. No one did, not even Jesus' own disciples at the time, even given that Jesus told them what was going to happen. What we believe today (the Church Age) for salvation includes Jesus death and resurrection, since it happened. There seems to be a lot of truth behind dispensationalism.

---

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+man+on+the+middle+cross+said+i+could+come&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

---

A great message by Alistair Begg. It is really unfortunate, the recent controversy he found himself in.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

Hey Interrogator, rather than demanding other people answer your questions, why don't you freely offer up your own complete view of faith, works, and salvation?

Don't be shy.

---

The issue though is when people criticize, but then won't answer direct questions.

---

I will ask you the same questions I'm asking them. Could you give your answer to these?:s

1) If the thief on the cross had not verbally expressed his faith or rebuked the other thief, but instead believed those things in his heart - would he have been saved?

2) Was the house of Cornelius saved when they heard the gospel, believed, and the Holy Spirit entered them?

---

1) The Thief on the cross was saved before he confessed he was a sinner and asked Jesus to save Him, this an outward expression of Faith in Jesus Christ. After Christ rose from the dead, he would have been required to believe that Jesus died and rose again as a Sacrifice for his sins. Would he have been saved if he believed these things in his heart? I think he would have been..The Bible says that it is by believing (Faith) that we are saved, but I think it is best to express that Faith openly to God from your mouth as he did.

Romans 10:9-10 NKJV
[9] "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

2) Yes the House of Cornelius was truly saved when they heard, believed and the Holy Spirit dwelled in them. You can't have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you and not be saved.

Romans 8:14 KJV
[14]" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. "

---

Ok, good answers, and thanks for demonstrating how to actually answer a question.

Your answer #1 is interesting yet confusing. So when was the thief "saved" - when he believed Jesus in his heart while both he and Jesus were still alive on their crosses, or not until AFTER Jesus later died and then rose from the dead?

---

Right then when he believed in His heart. Later, after the Resurrection, those under Grace were required to believe in the death and resurrection for of salvation. Before the cross it was who Jesus was, the Messiah of Israel.

---

I think this is correct. The thief believed in Jesus' Kingdom message to the Jews as their Messiah - he said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". And Jesus saved him for that belief. The thief, as far as we know, had no knowledge that Jesus was going to die to pay for sin and then rise again. No one did, not even Jesus' own disciples at the time, even given that Jesus told them what was going to happen. What we believe today (the Church Age) for salvation includes Jesus death and resurrection, since it happened. There seems to be a lot of truth behind dispensationalism.

---

Rarely do I find ANYONE who understands this as you do. I agree . Have you ever listened to Through The Bible with Les Feldick? He is one of the greatest Bible teachers I have ever heard and is a Mid Acts Dispensationalist.

---

No, I haven't. If it's on Youtube, I'll check it out when I have the time.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

The fact is, any Christian HAS to take my position that those who don't see reason, purpose, and design in nature (the universe, earth, life) are in denial, because that is what the bible says. A Christian believes the bible to be the Word of God, so he/she believes that position is coming straight from God himself. Whether an actual Christian will tell you this directly, well, that's going to depend on the Christian. I personally will not hold back what I believe is a truth that someone's eternal destiny depends on.

---

There are quite literally millions of different interpretations of the Bible by tens of thousands of Christian denominations, but as someone who is not Christian, I am in no position to state who and who is not an "actual" Christian. Just earlier in the thread was someone of faith stating they don't believe objective evidence for God exists, but it seems like you would not consider this a true Christian position.

Some believe the Bible is inerrant and God's literal word, some believe it is inspired but still written through the lens of human, including human mistakes and errors, some believe it is valuable mythology, and everything in-between. All of this is to say, I would not be so dogmatic on what any Christian HAS to believe, besides perhaps regarding the figure of Christ.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

You got it wrong - the "crux" of the matter is NOT our interpretation. The crux is that we're even able to interpret anything to begin with. You casually acknowledge the existence of our minds and our consciousness, from which we are able to wonder and "awe", and appreciate "intricacy" and "beauty" of the natural universe we find ourselves in. Well, did physics pop into existence, and ultimately became aware of itself and the "beauty" and "mystery" of it's existence? Can you honestly tell me in your heart of hearts, that you believe this to be possible beyond an infinitesimally miniscule, incomprehensible unlikelihood? This isn't just rhetorical, I would actually like to hear a direct answer. You stated that you do find reason and purpose to nature and our existence - this suggests a giver or designer of that reason and purpose, does it not? Doesn't teleology point to a Mind? It seems you are suppressing yourself from following through with the logic. This is what I mean by denial and not being honest with yourself.

---

I don't believe physics popped into existence from nothing, this is what you believe. You believe the universe and all its laws popped into existence out of nothing by the hand of a sentient being. What do I believe about how the universe and its laws came to be? I don't know. The farthest back we can go is the singularity of the Big Bang, but what predated (if anything) is unknown to all. Similarly to your comment on consciousness, I don't know specifically how consciousness and self-awareness arose. It is certainly a mystery! Maybe one day we will understand the intricacies of it, or perhaps not. I am 100% open to God being what ends up filling the gaps of our scientific understanding, but I am not going to do so just because I don't know.

I personally find purpose and reason in my life, but I am not necessarily saying the universe itself has some sort of purpose or is moving towards some goal. Is it? It definitely could be - but to me personally there does not seem to be any reason to believe so.

As an aside, continuing to use verbiage like I'm in denial, suppressing myself, and not being honest with myself isn't helpful to the conversation. This is why I originally stated I wasn't sure if the discussion would even be fruitful, as it seems to be clear you believe your specific interpretation of the universe, it's sentient being, and the sentient beings book are correct and anyone who disagrees with you is disillusioned. I ask sincerely, let's drop the ad hominems, or it may be best to just shake internet hands and agree to disagree.

BearWithMe said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

The fact is, any Christian HAS to take my position that those who don't see reason, purpose, and design in nature (the universe, earth, life) are in denial, because that is what the bible says. A Christian believes the bible to be the Word of God, so he/she believes that position is coming straight from God himself. Whether an actual Christian will tell you this directly, well, that's going to depend on the Christian. I personally will not hold back what I believe is a truth that someone's eternal destiny depends on.

---

There are quite literally millions of different interpretations of the Bible by tens of thousands of Christian denominations, but as someone who is not Christian, I am in no position to state who and who is not an "actual" Christian. Just earlier in the thread was someone of faith stating they don't believe objective evidence for God exists, but it seems like you would not consider this a true Christian position.

Some believe the Bible is inerrant and God's literal word, some believe it is inspired but still written through the lens of human, including human mistakes and errors, some believe it is valuable mythology, and everything in-between. All of this is to say, I would not be so dogmatic on what any Christian HAS to believe, besides perhaps regarding the figure of Christ.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

You got it wrong - the "crux" of the matter is NOT our interpretation. The crux is that we're even able to interpret anything to begin with. You casually acknowledge the existence of our minds and our consciousness, from which we are able to wonder and "awe", and appreciate "intricacy" and "beauty" of the natural universe we find ourselves in. Well, did physics pop into existence, and ultimately became aware of itself and the "beauty" and "mystery" of it's existence? Can you honestly tell me in your heart of hearts, that you believe this to be possible beyond an infinitesimally miniscule, incomprehensible unlikelihood? This isn't just rhetorical, I would actually like to hear a direct answer. You stated that you do find reason and purpose to nature and our existence - this suggests a giver or designer of that reason and purpose, does it not? Doesn't teleology point to a Mind? It seems you are suppressing yourself from following through with the logic. This is what I mean by denial and not being honest with yourself.

---

I don't believe physics popped into existence from nothing, this is what you believe. You believe the universe and all its laws popped into existence out of nothing by the hand of a sentient being. What do I believe about how the universe and its laws came to be? I don't know. The farthest back we can go is the singularity of the Big Bang, but what predated (if anything) is unknown to all. Similarly to your comment on consciousness, I don't know specifically how consciousness and self-awareness arose. It is certainly a mystery! Maybe one day we will understand the intricacies of it, or perhaps not. I am 100% open to God being what ends up filling the gaps of our scientific understanding, but I am not going to do so just because I don't know.

I personally find purpose and reason in my life, but I am not necessarily saying the universe itself has some sort of purpose or is moving towards some goal. Is it? It definitely could be - but to me personally there does not seem to be any reason to believe so.

As an aside, continuing to use verbiage like I'm in denial, suppressing myself, and not being honest with myself isn't helpful to the conversation. This is why I originally stated I wasn't sure if the discussion would even be fruitful, as it seems to be clear you believe your specific interpretation of the universe, it's sentient being, and the sentient beings book are correct and anyone who disagrees with you is disillusioned. I ask sincerely, let's drop the ad hominems, or it may be best to just shake internet hands and agree to disagree.

---

A Christian has to take the position of the bible, if they are to be biblical. And there's no way to interpret around what Paul said. If a true believer actually did say that there is no objective evidence that God exists, then they are in error. It's not an error that affects their salvation, though.

What I meant was, did physics pop into existence and become aware of itself all on its own, without a guided direction and purpose, and without design, and do you believe this is possible beyond an infinitesimally miniscule, extremely, extrememly fortunate, and incomprehensible unlikelihood?

Forget about the beginning of the universe and its natural laws....from that point forward, do you honestly believe physics could on its own, through random chance and unguided, undirected processes, lead to physics becoming aware of itself, beauty, awe, wonder, and mystery? Could it have led to the point where two people are philosophizing about the meaning of it all right now, on computers? You do know. You know it couldn't have. It'd be like saying that you "don't know" if winning a thousand hands of blackjack in a row involved any cheating, or if rolling snake eyes on dice a thousand times in a row involved weighted dice. The odds are probably even much smaller than that.

Sure, we can shake hands, but so far you've only demonstrated exactly why I say that denial and dishonesty with yourself is involved. I'm sorry if this bothers you, but wouldn't you think the same thing about me if I said "I don't know" if winning 5 mega powerball lotteries in a row means there was cheating? You'd think I was either a fool, or that I was in on it!

I'm not really saying anything about a "sentient being, his book, and my interpretation is correct" right now, all I'm asking if you can't honestly say more than just "I don't know". Forget about where your answer leads (incidentally, I think THIS is why most people deny to themself that they believe), and forget about it being due to a "God" let alone the God of the bible or my interpretation of it. Just start with the teleology.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

A Christian has to take the position of the bible, if they are to be biblical. And there's no way to interpret around what Paul said. If a true believer actually did say that there is no objective evidence that God exists, then they are in error. It's not an error that affects their salvation, though.

What I meant was, did physics pop into existence and become aware of itself all on its own, without a guided direction and purpose, and without design, and do you believe this is possible beyond an infinitesimally miniscule, extremely, extrememly fortunate, and incomprehensible unlikelihood?

Forget about the beginning of the universe and its natural laws....from that point forward, do you honestly believe physics could on its own, through random chance and unguided, undirected processes, lead to physics becoming aware of itself, beauty, awe, wonder, and mystery? Could it have led to the point where two people are philosophizing about the meaning of it all right now, on computers? You do know. You know it couldn't have. It'd be like saying that you "don't know" if winning a thousand hands of blackjack in a row involved any cheating, or if rolling snake eyes on dice a thousand times in a row involved weighted dice. The odds are probably even much smaller than that.

---

Noted on the Christianity take. I disagree but as I said earlier I am in no position to dictate what a Christian should or shouldn't believe - I will leave that to the denominations to discuss among themselves.

When it comes to the likelihood of life emerging through natural processes, it's challenging (if not impossible) with our current understanding to quantify the odds statistically. Classical physics viewed the universe as deterministic, whereas quantum mechanics presents it as probabilistic. With theories ranging from many-worlds and hidden variables to the God hypothesis, it's clear we face a complex understanding. Given our inherent survivorship bias as humans, it's difficult to gauge how rare or common life might be across the universe. My personal hunch, though, is that basic forms of life are likely widespread, whereas sentient beings are much rarer. Considering the near-extinction events of Homo sapiens and our recent ancestors, this seems plausible. Nonetheless, I do grant that should Earth prove to be the only planet with life in the observable universe, it would certainly hint at the presence of a supernatural guiding being.

To address your question about my belief in the natural emergence of sentient beings capable of philosophical thought: yes, I do believe it's possible. I gather you might agree, albeit attributing their development to divine guidance. Our comprehensive understanding of evolution through natural selection, supported by extensive testing at both micro and macro levels, doesn't necessarily involve God. While God's participation could indeed be integral, and I have no quarrel with those that hold that position, such a role remains unfalsifiable and beyond empirical testing

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sure, we can shake hands, but so far you've only demonstrated exactly why I say that denial and dishonesty with yourself is involved. I'm sorry if this bothers you, but wouldn't you think the same thing about me if I said "I don't know" if winning 5 mega powerball lotteries in a row means there was cheating? You'd think I was either a fool, or that I was in on it!

I'm not really saying anything about a "sentient being, his book, and my interpretation is correct" right now, all I'm asking if you can't honestly say more than just "I don't know". Forget about where your answer leads (incidentally, I think THIS is why most people deny to themself that they believe), and forget about it being due to a "God" let alone the God of the bible or my interpretation of it. Just start with the teleology.

---

Drawing a parallel between someone repeatedly winning the Powerball and the origins of the universe isn't quite apt, as:

• We understand the statistical likelihood of winning a Powerball drawing.
• We fully grasp the operational mechanisms of the lottery, as it's a human-crafted system.

To compare this understanding to our comprehension of the universe's origins and the life within would be misleading. Both you and I, along with the entirety of humanity, possess a profound ignorance regarding the universe's inception and its underlying principles. Claiming otherwise would be preposterous. Our divergence lies in your belief that your religious texts necessitate finding objective evidence of God in nature, despite the unfalsifiable nature of God's involvement. Conversely, I do not share this belief.

Furthermore, I apologize if my stance of "I don't know" falls short. As you've mentioned before, prioritizing honesty is important. Saying I am in denial doesn't bother or offend me, but I just personally believe it is just out of place when discussing such an abstract concept such as God in nature (but to you it is not abstract but objectively clear, so I get it )

BearWithMe said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

A Christian has to take the position of the bible, if they are to be biblical. And there's no way to interpret around what Paul said. If a true believer actually did say that there is no objective evidence that God exists, then they are in error. It's not an error that affects their salvation, though.

What I meant was, did physics pop into existence and become aware of itself all on its own, without a guided direction and purpose, and without design, and do you believe this is possible beyond an infinitesimally miniscule, extremely, extrememly fortunate, and incomprehensible unlikelihood?

Forget about the beginning of the universe and its natural laws....from that point forward, do you honestly believe physics could on its own, through random chance and unguided, undirected processes, lead to physics becoming aware of itself, beauty, awe, wonder, and mystery? Could it have led to the point where two people are philosophizing about the meaning of it all right now, on computers? You do know. You know it couldn't have. It'd be like saying that you "don't know" if winning a thousand hands of blackjack in a row involved any cheating, or if rolling snake eyes on dice a thousand times in a row involved weighted dice. The odds are probably even much smaller than that.

---

Noted on the Christianity take. I disagree but as I said earlier I am in no position to dictate what a Christian should or shouldn't believe - I will leave that to the denominations to discuss among themselves.

When it comes to the likelihood of life emerging through natural processes, it's challenging (if not impossible) with our current understanding to quantify the odds statistically. Classical physics viewed the universe as deterministic, whereas quantum mechanics presents it as probabilistic. With theories ranging from many-worlds and hidden variables to the God hypothesis, it's clear we face a complex understanding. Given our inherent survivorship bias as humans, it's difficult to gauge how rare or common life might be across the universe. My personal hunch, though, is that basic forms of life are likely widespread, whereas sentient beings are much rarer. Considering the near-extinction events of Homo sapiens and our recent ancestors, this seems plausible. Nonetheless, I do grant that should Earth prove to be the only planet with life in the observable universe, it would certainly hint at the presence of a supernatural guiding being.

To address your question about my belief in the natural emergence of sentient beings capable of philosophical thought: yes, I do believe it's possible. I gather you might agree, albeit attributing their development to divine guidance. Our comprehensive understanding of evolution through natural selection, supported by extensive testing at both micro and macro levels, doesn't necessarily involve God. While God's participation could indeed be integral, and I have no quarrel with those that hold that position, such a role remains unfalsifiable and beyond empirical testing

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sure, we can shake hands, but so far you've only demonstrated exactly why I say that denial and dishonesty with yourself is involved. I'm sorry if this bothers you, but wouldn't you think the same thing about me if I said "I don't know" if winning 5 mega powerball lotteries in a row means there was cheating? You'd think I was either a fool, or that I was in on it!

I'm not really saying anything about a "sentient being, his book, and my interpretation is correct" right now, all I'm asking if you can't honestly say more than just "I don't know". Forget about where your answer leads (incidentally, I think THIS is why most people deny to themself that they believe), and forget about it being due to a "God" let alone the God of the bible or my interpretation of it. Just start with the teleology.

---

Drawing a parallel between someone repeatedly winning the Powerball and the origins of the universe isn't quite apt, as:

• We understand the statistical likelihood of winning a Powerball drawing.
• We fully grasp the operational mechanisms of the lottery, as it's a human-crafted system.

To compare this understanding to our comprehension of the universe's origins and the life within would be misleading. Both you and I, along with the entirety of humanity, possess a profound ignorance regarding the universe's inception and its underlying principles. Claiming otherwise would be preposterous. Our divergence lies in your belief that your religious texts necessitate finding objective evidence of God in nature, despite the unfalsifiable nature of God's involvement. Conversely, I do not share this belief.

Furthermore, I apologize if my stance of "I don't know" falls short. As you've mentioned before, prioritizing honesty is important. Saying I am in denial doesn't bother or offend me, but I just personally believe it is just out of place when discussing such an abstract concept such as God in nature (but to you it is not abstract but objectively clear, so I get it )

---

You are making a kind of appeal to ignorance - "because we can't calculate the odds exactly, we can't have any idea of its unlikelihood". This is false. Quantum probability happens at the quantum level. We are not quantum beings. At the macro level, things are more concrete and we have a lot more understanding. The world's finest physicists have come up with a universal wave function to explain the origin of our universe with its set of exquisitely fine tuned set of laws and constants - but it has an infinite number of solutions, so it had to be teleologically constrained by the physicists (aka their mind) in order to end up with our universe. We know that if any of the set of 26 or so universal constants were different by just a miniscule amount, a universe capable of producing life would not exist. We know how chemistry and biology works on this earth, and know that the likelihood of the spontaneous origin of the building blocks of life (proteins, carbohydrates, lipids) is exceedingly small. In biology, we know the process of genetic information leading to the building of functional proteins, and we have a good idea of the extreme unlikelihood a randomly generated mutation will actually produce a beneficial functional protein that won't end up killing the organism instead. In population genetics, scientists found that for just a single pair of complementary gene mutations to become fixed in a population, it would take 10 million years - but there is only a 6 million year time difference between humans and the common ancestor we have with orangutans based on the fossil record. And mind you, that's only for a PAIR of genes. Increasing that number only increases the time logarithmically. You wouldn't say there's only a 2 gene difference between our ape ancestors and us homo sapiens, would you? And I can go on, and on......

But one does not need this kind of scientific knowledge to understand the unlikelihood. Just from our personal everyday experience, something doesn't come from nothing, and that something doesn't order itself to become living, sentient beings without a mindful cause. Exceedingly complex order does not naturally fall from disorder, without teleology. Teleology means a Mind.

Our divergence does NOT lie on me relying on religious texts. This is a ridiculous straw man. We are still only talking about general revelation, remember?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

Hey Interrogator, rather than demanding other people answer your questions, why don't you freely offer up your own complete view of faith, works, and salvation?

Don't be shy.

---

The issue though is when people criticize, but then won't answer direct questions.

---

I will ask you the same questions I'm asking them. Could you give your answer to these?:s

1) If the thief on the cross had not verbally expressed his faith or rebuked the other thief, but instead believed those things in his heart - would he have been saved?

2) Was the house of Cornelius saved when they heard the gospel, believed, and the Holy Spirit entered them?

---

1) The Thief on the cross was saved before he confessed he was a sinner and asked Jesus to save Him, this an outward expression of Faith in Jesus Christ. After Christ rose from the dead, he would have been required to believe that Jesus died and rose again as a Sacrifice for his sins. Would he have been saved if he believed these things in his heart? I think he would have been..The Bible says that it is by believing (Faith) that we are saved, but I think it is best to express that Faith openly to God from your mouth as he did.

Romans 10:9-10 NKJV
[9] "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

2) Yes the House of Cornelius was truly saved when they heard, believed and the Holy Spirit dwelled in them. You can't have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you and not be saved.

Romans 8:14 KJV
[14]" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. "

---

Ok, good answers, and thanks for demonstrating how to actually answer a question.

Your answer #1 is interesting yet confusing. So when was the thief "saved" - when he believed Jesus in his heart while both he and Jesus were still alive on their crosses, or not until AFTER Jesus later died and then rose from the dead?

---

Right then when he believed in His heart. Later, after the Resurrection, those under Grace were required to believe in the death and resurrection for of salvation. Before the cross it was who Jesus was, the Messiah of Israel.

---

I think this is correct. The thief believed in Jesus' Kingdom message to the Jews as their Messiah - he said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". And Jesus saved him for that belief. The thief, as far as we know, had no knowledge that Jesus was going to die to pay for sin and then rise again. No one did, not even Jesus' own disciples at the time, even given that Jesus told them what was going to happen. What we believe today (the Church Age) for salvation includes Jesus death and resurrection, since it happened. There seems to be a lot of truth behind dispensationalism.

---

Rarely do I find ANYONE who understands this as you do. I agree . Have you ever listened to Through The Bible with Les Feldick? He is one of the greatest Bible teachers I have ever heard and is a Mid Acts Dispensationalist.

---

No, I haven't. If it's on Youtube, I'll check it out when I have the time.

---

Try this link:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

Hey Interrogator, rather than demanding other people answer your questions, why don't you freely offer up your own complete view of faith, works, and salvation?

Don't be shy.

---

The issue though is when people criticize, but then won't answer direct questions.

---

I will ask you the same questions I'm asking them. Could you give your answer to these?:s

1) If the thief on the cross had not verbally expressed his faith or rebuked the other thief, but instead believed those things in his heart - would he have been saved?

2) Was the house of Cornelius saved when they heard the gospel, believed, and the Holy Spirit entered them?

---

1) The Thief on the cross was saved before he confessed he was a sinner and asked Jesus to save Him, this an outward expression of Faith in Jesus Christ. After Christ rose from the dead, he would have been required to believe that Jesus died and rose again as a Sacrifice for his sins. Would he have been saved if he believed these things in his heart? I think he would have been..The Bible says that it is by believing (Faith) that we are saved, but I think it is best to express that Faith openly to God from your mouth as he did.

Romans 10:9-10 NKJV
[9] "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

2) Yes the House of Cornelius was truly saved when they heard, believed and the Holy Spirit dwelled in them. You can't have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you and not be saved.

Romans 8:14 KJV
[14]" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. "

---

Ok, good answers, and thanks for demonstrating how to actually answer a question.

Your answer #1 is interesting yet confusing. So when was the thief "saved" - when he believed Jesus in his heart while both he and Jesus were still alive on their crosses, or not until AFTER Jesus later died and then rose from the dead?

---

Right then when he believed in His heart. Later, after the Resurrection, those under Grace were required to believe in the death and resurrection for of salvation. Before the cross it was who Jesus was, the Messiah of Israel.

---

I think this is correct. The thief believed in Jesus' Kingdom message to the Jews as their Messiah - he said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". And Jesus saved him for that belief. The thief, as far as we know, had no knowledge that Jesus was going to die to pay for sin and then rise again. No one did, not even Jesus' own disciples at the time, even given that Jesus told them what was going to happen. What we believe today (the Church Age) for salvation includes Jesus death and resurrection, since it happened. There seems to be a lot of truth behind dispensationalism.

---

Rarely do I find ANYONE who understands this as you do. I agree . Have you ever listened to Through The Bible with Les Feldick? He is one of the greatest Bible teachers I have ever heard and is a Mid Acts Dispensationalist.

---

No, I haven't. If it's on Youtube, I'll check it out when I have the time.

---

Try this link:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

---

He's on youtube. There's like 1000 videos of the "Through the Bible" series, my God. I actually listened to some last night. I'm not exactly sure where I stand on when the Church Age began, but he seems very solid and has very biblical arguments for mid-Acts dispensationalism.

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

90sBear said:

---

Hey Interrogator, rather than demanding other people answer your questions, why don't you freely offer up your own complete view of faith, works, and salvation?

Don't be shy.

---

The issue though is when people criticize, but then won't answer direct questions.

---

I will ask you the same questions I'm asking them. Could you give your answer to these?:s

1) If the thief on the cross had not verbally expressed his faith or rebuked the other thief, but instead believed those things in his heart - would he have been saved?

2) Was the house of Cornelius saved when they heard the gospel, believed, and the Holy Spirit entered them?

---

1) The Thief on the cross was saved before he confessed he was a sinner and asked Jesus to save Him, this an outward expression of Faith in Jesus Christ. After Christ rose from the dead, he would have been required to believe that Jesus died and rose again as a Sacrifice for his sins. Would he have been saved if he believed these things in his heart? I think he would have been..The Bible says that it is by believing (Faith) that we are saved, but I think it is best to express that Faith openly to God from your mouth as he did.

Romans 10:9-10 NKJV
[9] "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

2) Yes the House of Cornelius was truly saved when they heard, believed and the Holy Spirit dwelled in them. You can't have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you and not be saved.

Romans 8:14 KJV
[14]" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. "

---

Ok, good answers, and thanks for demonstrating how to actually answer a question.

Your answer #1 is interesting yet confusing. So when was the thief "saved" - when he believed Jesus in his heart while both he and Jesus were still alive on their crosses, or not until AFTER Jesus later died and then rose from the dead?

---

Right then when he believed in His heart. Later, after the Resurrection, those under Grace were required to believe in the death and resurrection for of salvation. Before the cross it was who Jesus was, the Messiah of Israel.

---

I think this is correct. The thief believed in Jesus' Kingdom message to the Jews as their Messiah - he said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". And Jesus saved him for that belief. The thief, as far as we know, had no knowledge that Jesus was going to die to pay for sin and then rise again. No one did, not even Jesus' own disciples at the time, even given that Jesus told them what was going to happen. What we believe today (the Church Age) for salvation includes Jesus death and resurrection, since it happened. There seems to be a lot of truth behind dispensationalism.

---

Rarely do I find ANYONE who understands this as you do. I agree . Have you ever listened to Through The Bible with Les Feldick? He is one of the greatest Bible teachers I have ever heard and is a Mid Acts Dispensationalist.

---

No, I haven't. If it's on Youtube, I'll check it out when I have the time.

---

Try this link:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

---

He's on youtube. There's like 1000 videos of the "Through the Bible" series, my God. I actually listened to some last night. I'm not exactly sure where I stand on when the Church Age began, but he seems very solid and has very biblical arguments for mid-Acts dispensationalism.

---

I listened to every single one of them. Les says the Church age started with Paul. I think I agree.

Pray for America! We are in big trouble!

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

"I ask sincerely, let's drop the ad hominems" Dusty will not

In my estimation hurricanes, tornados do not have rhyme or reason

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

Waco1947 said:

---

In my estimation hurricanes, tornados do not have rhyme or reason

---

Those who study Meteorology would disagree with you.

Hurricanes by number and likely location are forecast every year, and tornado conditions are known often days in advance of such events,

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, Waco.

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

But if your son IS an alcoholic, he will never be able to enter your house.

If only he had a Mediator, someone who lives in the same house, who isn't an alcoholic, who can cover up your son's alcoholism so he can stay in your house.......

Oldbear83 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

---

You really don't understand the gospel.

If we can only go to heaven by what we are able to do, then none of us will go to heaven, because we have to be perfect.

We go to heaven because of what Jesus did and by his perfection, not by what we're able to do.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

---

You really don't understand the gospel.

If we can only go to heaven by what we are able to do, then none of us will go to heaven, because we have to be perfect.

We go to heaven because of what Jesus did and by his perfection, not by what we're able to do.

---

I do understand the Gospel. And I agree we only go to Heaven because of God's Grace.

But faith is more than a wish, more than even a word. Pretending that saying 'I believe' somehow makes it true just because you say it, well, that way lies destruction.

Jesus even warned in Matthew Chapter 24 that there would be some who claimed His name but never really knew Him. That is where the peril lies, the comfortable assumption that one is saved because you want that to be so.

Our works do not have merit. But they do have consequences. If one believes, one will do the Lord's work.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

---

You really don't understand the gospel.

If we can only go to heaven by what we are able to do, then none of us will go to heaven, because we have to be perfect.

We go to heaven because of what Jesus did and by his perfection, not by what we're able to do.

---

I do understand the Gospel. And I agree we only go to Heaven because of God's Grace.

But faith is more than a wish, more than even a word. Pretending that saying 'I believe' somehow makes it true just because you say it, well, that way lies destruction.

Jesus even warned in Matthew Chapter 24 that there would be some who claimed His name but never really knew Him. That is where the peril lies, the comfortable assumption that one is saved because you want that to be so.

Our works do not have merit. But they do have consequences. If one believes, one will do the Lord's work.

---

You say here that we go to heaven because of God's grace - but your other statement is saying that we only receive this grace based on what we do. That is not the gospel. If you have to do, then it is no longer grace.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

---

You really don't understand the gospel.

If we can only go to heaven by what we are able to do, then none of us will go to heaven, because we have to be perfect.

We go to heaven because of what Jesus did and by his perfection, not by what we're able to do.

---

I do understand the Gospel. And I agree we only go to Heaven because of God's Grace.

But faith is more than a wish, more than even a word. Pretending that saying 'I believe' somehow makes it true just because you say it, well, that way lies destruction.

Jesus even warned in Matthew Chapter 24 that there would be some who claimed His name but never really knew Him. That is where the peril lies, the comfortable assumption that one is saved because you want that to be so.

Our works do not have merit. But they do have consequences. If one believes, one will do the Lord's work.

---

You say here that we go to heaven because of God's grace - but your other statement is saying that we only receive this grace based on what we do. That is not the gospel.

---

Riddle me this - in Matthew 24 Jesus gave this warning:

""Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

That is clearly a warning to Jesus' own followers. Why, if all they need do is claim the gift?

Chapter 25 continues with another warning, Jesus saying:

"11 "Later the others also came. 'Lord, Lord,' they said, 'open the door for us!'

12 "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'
13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

What are they to keep watch for, if not to make sure they keep the faith they claim?

In that same Chapter, Christ warned again about some who pretend to be followers, perhaps believed that claiming to be Christian would be all that needed:

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

These are the direct words of our Lord. Yes, we are saved by Grace and we accept it through faith, but we need to do God's will if we have that faith. Even though we are not saved by such works, if we will not do these works we do not have the faith which would allow Grace to work in us.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

---

You really don't understand the gospel.

If we can only go to heaven by what we are able to do, then none of us will go to heaven, because we have to be perfect.

We go to heaven because of what Jesus did and by his perfection, not by what we're able to do.

---

I do understand the Gospel. And I agree we only go to Heaven because of God's Grace.

But faith is more than a wish, more than even a word. Pretending that saying 'I believe' somehow makes it true just because you say it, well, that way lies destruction.

Jesus even warned in Matthew Chapter 24 that there would be some who claimed His name but never really knew Him. That is where the peril lies, the comfortable assumption that one is saved because you want that to be so.

Our works do not have merit. But they do have consequences. If one believes, one will do the Lord's work.

---

You say here that we go to heaven because of God's grace - but your other statement is saying that we only receive this grace based on what we do. That is not the gospel.

---

Riddle me this - in Matthew 24 Jesus gave this warning:

""Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

That is clearly a warning to Jesus' own followers. Why, if all they need do is claim the gift?

Chapter 25 continues with another warning, Jesus saying:

"11 "Later the others also came. 'Lord, Lord,' they said, 'open the door for us!'

12 "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'
13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

What are they to keep watch for, if not to make sure they keep the faith they claim?

---

Read your words that I bolded.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

---

You really don't understand the gospel.

If we can only go to heaven by what we are able to do, then none of us will go to heaven, because we have to be perfect.

We go to heaven because of what Jesus did and by his perfection, not by what we're able to do.

---

I do understand the Gospel. And I agree we only go to Heaven because of God's Grace.

But faith is more than a wish, more than even a word. Pretending that saying 'I believe' somehow makes it true just because you say it, well, that way lies destruction.

Jesus even warned in Matthew Chapter 24 that there would be some who claimed His name but never really knew Him. That is where the peril lies, the comfortable assumption that one is saved because you want that to be so.

Our works do not have merit. But they do have consequences. If one believes, one will do the Lord's work.

---

You say here that we go to heaven because of God's grace - but your other statement is saying that we only receive this grace based on what we do. That is not the gospel.

---

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

These are the direct words of our Lord. Yes, we are saved by Grace and we accept it through faith, but we need to do God's will if we have that faith. Even though we are not saved by such works, if we will not do these works we do not have the faith which would allow Grace to work in us.

---

Who are the "least of these" in verse 45?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

---

You really don't understand the gospel.

If we can only go to heaven by what we are able to do, then none of us will go to heaven, because we have to be perfect.

We go to heaven because of what Jesus did and by his perfection, not by what we're able to do.

---

I do understand the Gospel. And I agree we only go to Heaven because of God's Grace.

But faith is more than a wish, more than even a word. Pretending that saying 'I believe' somehow makes it true just because you say it, well, that way lies destruction.

Jesus even warned in Matthew Chapter 24 that there would be some who claimed His name but never really knew Him. That is where the peril lies, the comfortable assumption that one is saved because you want that to be so.

Our works do not have merit. But they do have consequences. If one believes, one will do the Lord's work.

---

You say here that we go to heaven because of God's grace - but your other statement is saying that we only receive this grace based on what we do. That is not the gospel.

---

Riddle me this - in Matthew 24 Jesus gave this warning:

""Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

That is clearly a warning to Jesus' own followers. Why, if all they need do is claim the gift?

Chapter 25 continues with another warning, Jesus saying:

"11 "Later the others also came. 'Lord, Lord,' they said, 'open the door for us!'

12 "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'
13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

What are they to keep watch for, if not to make sure they keep the faith they claim?

---

Read your words that I bolded.

---

Read my post, it explains the context of that phrase.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

---

You really don't understand the gospel.

If we can only go to heaven by what we are able to do, then none of us will go to heaven, because we have to be perfect.

We go to heaven because of what Jesus did and by his perfection, not by what we're able to do.

---

I do understand the Gospel. And I agree we only go to Heaven because of God's Grace.

But faith is more than a wish, more than even a word. Pretending that saying 'I believe' somehow makes it true just because you say it, well, that way lies destruction.

Jesus even warned in Matthew Chapter 24 that there would be some who claimed His name but never really knew Him. That is where the peril lies, the comfortable assumption that one is saved because you want that to be so.

Our works do not have merit. But they do have consequences. If one believes, one will do the Lord's work.

---

You say here that we go to heaven because of God's grace - but your other statement is saying that we only receive this grace based on what we do. That is not the gospel.

---

Riddle me this - in Matthew 24 Jesus gave this warning:

""Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

That is clearly a warning to Jesus' own followers. Why, if all they need do is claim the gift?

Chapter 25 continues with another warning, Jesus saying:

"11 "Later the others also came. 'Lord, Lord,' they said, 'open the door for us!'

12 "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'
13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

What are they to keep watch for, if not to make sure they keep the faith they claim?

---

Read your words that I bolded.

---

Read my post, it explains the context of that phrase.

---

What is the context? How do they "keep the faith" which is your exact statement?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

I love my son unconditionally but he may not come be an alcoholic at my house.. Gods love is unconditional, entrance into Heaven is..

---

So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven.

Thanks.

---

You really don't understand the gospel.

If we can only go to heaven by what we are able to do, then none of us will go to heaven, because we have to be perfect.

We go to heaven because of what Jesus did and by his perfection, not by what we're able to do.

---

I do understand the Gospel. And I agree we only go to Heaven because of God's Grace.

But faith is more than a wish, more than even a word. Pretending that saying 'I believe' somehow makes it true just because you say it, well, that way lies destruction.

Jesus even warned in Matthew Chapter 24 that there would be some who claimed His name but never really knew Him. That is where the peril lies, the comfortable assumption that one is saved because you want that to be so.

Our works do not have merit. But they do have consequences. If one believes, one will do the Lord's work.

---

You say here that we go to heaven because of God's grace - but your other statement is saying that we only receive this grace based on what we do. That is not the gospel.

---

Riddle me this - in Matthew 24 Jesus gave this warning:

""Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

That is clearly a warning to Jesus' own followers. Why, if all they need do is claim the gift?

Chapter 25 continues with another warning, Jesus saying:

"11 "Later the others also came. 'Lord, Lord,' they said, 'open the door for us!'

12 "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'
13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

What are they to keep watch for, if not to make sure they keep the faith they claim?

---

Read your words that I bolded.

---

Read my post, it explains the context of that phrase.

---

What is the context? How do they "keep the faith" which is your exact statement?

---

It's in my post. You keep faith by producing the fruit of faith. That's how we know Judas and Caiaphas and all like them were false in faith - they did not show the fruit of faith in their actions.

If you do not agree, please explain those warnings from Christ. And - if you can - don't suggest 'gouging' anything out, just address the topic.

Thanks.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Riddle me this - in Matthew 24 Jesus gave this warning:

""Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

That is clearly a warning to Jesus' own followers. Why, if all they need do is claim the gift?

Chapter 25 continues with another warning, Jesus saying:

"11 "Later the others also came. 'Lord, Lord,' they said, 'open the door for us!'

12 "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'
13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

What are they to keep watch for, if not to make sure they keep the faith they claim?

---

Read your words that I bolded.

---

Read my post, it explains the context of that phrase.

---

What is the context? How do they "keep the faith" which is your exact statement?

---

It's in my post. You keep faith by producing the fruit of faith. That's how we know Judas and Caiaphas and all like them were false in faith - they did not show the fruit of faith in their actions.

If you do not agree, please explain those warnings from Christ. And - if you can - don't suggest 'gouging' anything out, just address the topic.

Thanks.

---

No, actually it's not in the post. What exactly is the "fruit" of faith that the passage is admonishing us to produce? Can you be more specific?

And I am trying to explain those warnings from Jesus. I asked you a question about it, and you've yet to answer.

BTW, do you even know what the "gouging" is in reference to?

Well, I answered in good faith.

Since that goodwill was not returned, that is the end of that exchange.