Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

Oldbear83 said:

---

Well, I answered in good faith.

Since that goodwill was not returned, that is the end of that exchange.

---

Your answer doesn't answer anything. That's why I'm asking questions. Where in that passage does it say we aren't saved until we do good works? It doesn't support your point. "Producing fruit" could mean having and keeping faith.

If you don't want to explain it to me, it shows that you don't even know yourself, doesn't it?

And what about my question - "who are the least of these"? You're running away from that question too? We can't discuss the meaning of Matthew 25 until you answer that. Don't you want to move the discussion forward? Or are you just going to stonewall it again?

I'm trying, and you're stonewalling. Here we go again, I guess. You say you want to discuss verses, but then you don't.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

I agree. What WE do has no merit in sending us to heaven. It's our Faith Alone in Christ, but James does indicate that true faith results in good works, NOT to save us, but as the result of already being saved in the first place. God changes our nature into one that seems to please God. That doesn't mean that we are saved by works or even kept by works. I believe in once saved always saved.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

I agree. What WE do has no merit in sending us to heaven. It's our Faith Alone in Christ, but James does indicate that true faith results in good works, NOT to save us, but as the result of already being saved in the first place. God changes our nature into one that seems to please God. That doesn't mean that we are saved by works or even kept by works. I believe in once saved always saved.

---

While I would phrase it IF saved, always saved.

There is a good reason for the verse commending us to work out our Salvation in "fear and trembling". Being a follower of Christ does not depend on a membership card or feeling like we can just sit around and go to Heaven, the whole purpose is make us more like Christ by doing as He commands.

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

I agree. What WE do has no merit in sending us to heaven. It's our Faith Alone in Christ, but James does indicate that true faith results in good works, NOT to save us, but as the result of already being saved in the first place. God changes our nature into one that seems to please God. That doesn't mean that we are saved by works or even kept by works. I believe in once saved always saved.

---

While I would phrase it IF saved, always saved.......

---

Didn't you argue that one can be saved but then lose their salvation? If so, then how is it "if saved, always saved"?

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

I agree. What WE do has no merit in sending us to heaven. It's our Faith Alone in Christ, but James does indicate that true faith results in good works, NOT to save us, but as the result of already being saved in the first place. God changes our nature into one that seems to please God. That doesn't mean that we are saved by works or even kept by works. I believe in once saved always saved.

---

...There is a good reason for the verse commending us to work out our Salvation in "fear and trembling". Being a follower of Christ does not depend on a membership card or feeling like we can just sit around and go to Heaven, the whole purpose is make us more like Christ by doing as He commands.

---

So does "work out our salvation" mean that we don't have salvation unless we are "made more like Christ by doing as He commands"? I'm not sure what you mean here.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

I agree. What WE do has no merit in sending us to heaven. It's our Faith Alone in Christ, but James does indicate that true faith results in good works, NOT to save us, but as the result of already being saved in the first place. God changes our nature into one that seems to please God. That doesn't mean that we are saved by works or even kept by works. I believe in once saved always saved.

---

While I would phrase it IF saved, always saved.......

---

Didn't you argue that one can be saved but then lose their salvation? If so, then how is it "if saved, always saved"?

---

No, my argument was that some believe they are saved, because they wanted to be saved from the consequences of their sin but did not really repent of their sin, much less change their ways.

This is, I believe, Christ so often warned that you will know men by their fruits. He warned how many would say 'Lord, Lord' but not act in imitation of Christ.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

I agree. What WE do has no merit in sending us to heaven. It's our Faith Alone in Christ, but James does indicate that true faith results in good works, NOT to save us, but as the result of already being saved in the first place. God changes our nature into one that seems to please God. That doesn't mean that we are saved by works or even kept by works. I believe in once saved always saved.

---

...There is a good reason for the verse commending us to work out our Salvation in "fear and trembling". Being a follower of Christ does not depend on a membership card or feeling like we can just sit around and go to Heaven, the whole purpose is make us more like Christ by doing as He commands.

---

So does "work out our salvation" mean that we don't have salvation unless we are "made more like Christ by doing as He commands"? I'm not sure what you mean here.

---

Let me use an analogy here to show what I mean. Suppose someone says they want to become a scholar, but they imagine they don't need to spend the time studying or affirming what they were taught before they came to the new school. Whether or not that person is intellectually gifted, they will never be a scholar until they accept the discipline and rigor of being a scholar.

It's even more important for people who desire to be called Christ's brothers and sisters, to understand what it means to accept that relationship. Worse, I have known some people who put great personal pride in what church they went to, what image they presented as being oh-so-pious, but who could not be bothered to do any of the things Jesus told us to do.

It's not that doing those things creates the merit of redemption, but if we are aligned in heart and soul with the Lord, it should delight us to be able to help others, to grow in faith and service, and to walk with our Master day by day.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

IMO what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not because "What we do…is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not."

Put another way, IMO knowing where our faith is at matters and works are one way of reflecting that.

IMO that is one reason why Jesus, Paul, and James all speak to our actions and how they might be viewed as a part of our salvation. Not that they earn salvation, but because they are exactly what you said, a reflection of where our faith is at.

Thank you for sharing something of your own views. IMO we largely agree.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. %A0I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. %A0In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. %A0But there are exceptions in both cases. %A0

---

You are missing the point, frodo. %A0 %A0It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. %A0It's a choice we make to believe God. %A0It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. %A0Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. %A0We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. %A0 %A0The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants. %A0

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. %A0Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. %A0So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it. %A0

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works. %A0

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

I agree. %A0What WE do has no merit in sending us to heaven. %A0It's our Faith Alone in Christ, but James does indicate that true faith results in good works, %A0NOT to save us, but as the result of already being saved in the first place. %A0God changes our nature into one that seems to please God. %A0That doesn't mean that we are saved by works or even kept by works. %A0I believe in once saved always saved. %A0

---

...There is a good reason for the verse commending us to work out our Salvation in "fear and trembling". %A0Being a follower of Christ does not depend on a membership card or feeling like we can just sit around and go to Heaven, the whole purpose is make us more like Christ by doing as He commands.

---

So does "work out our salvation" mean that we don't have salvation unless we are "made more like Christ by doing as He commands"? I'm not sure what you mean here.

---

Let me use an analogy here to show what I mean. %A0 Suppose someone says they want to become a scholar, but they imagine they don't need to spend the time studying or affirming what they were taught before they came to the new school. %A0 Whether or not that person is intellectually gifted, they will never be a scholar until they accept the discipline and rigor of being a scholar.

It's even more important for people who desire to be called Christ's brothers and sisters, to understand what it means to accept that relationship. %A0Worse, I have known some people who put great personal pride in what church they went to, what image they presented as being oh-so-pious, but who could not be bothered to do any of the things Jesus told us to do.

It's not that doing those things creates the merit of redemption, but if we are aligned in heart and soul with the Lord, it should delight us to be able to help others, to grow in faith and service, and to walk with our Master day by day.

---

But you must work to be a scholar. If you do not do scholarly work, you are not a scholar.

This seems like a contradiction to your belief that salvation is by grace through faith, and not based on meritorious works. Meritorious works ARE the basis of being a scholar. Is it the basis of salvation also? See, this doesn't really clear it up. You're making an argument for works based salvation.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. %A0I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. %A0In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. %A0But there are exceptions in both cases. %A0

---

You are missing the point, frodo. %A0 %A0It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. %A0It's a choice we make to believe God. %A0It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. %A0Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. %A0We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. %A0 %A0The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants. %A0

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. %A0Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. %A0So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it. %A0

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works. %A0

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

I agree. %A0What WE do has no merit in sending us to heaven. %A0It's our Faith Alone in Christ, but James does indicate that true faith results in good works, %A0NOT to save us, but as the result of already being saved in the first place. %A0God changes our nature into one that seems to please God. %A0That doesn't mean that we are saved by works or even kept by works. %A0I believe in once saved always saved. %A0

---

...There is a good reason for the verse commending us to work out our Salvation in "fear and trembling". %A0Being a follower of Christ does not depend on a membership card or feeling like we can just sit around and go to Heaven, the whole purpose is make us more like Christ by doing as He commands.

---

So does "work out our salvation" mean that we don't have salvation unless we are "made more like Christ by doing as He commands"? I'm not sure what you mean here.

---

Let me use an analogy here to show what I mean. %A0 Suppose someone says they want to become a scholar, but they imagine they don't need to spend the time studying or affirming what they were taught before they came to the new school. %A0 Whether or not that person is intellectually gifted, they will never be a scholar until they accept the discipline and rigor of being a scholar.

It's even more important for people who desire to be called Christ's brothers and sisters, to understand what it means to accept that relationship. %A0Worse, I have known some people who put great personal pride in what church they went to, what image they presented as being oh-so-pious, but who could not be bothered to do any of the things Jesus told us to do.

It's not that doing those things creates the merit of redemption, but if we are aligned in heart and soul with the Lord, it should delight us to be able to help others, to grow in faith and service, and to walk with our Master day by day.

---

But you must work to be a scholar. If you do not do scholarly work, you are not a scholar.

This seems like a contradiction to your belief that salvation is by grace through faith, and not based on meritorious works. Meritorious works ARE the basis of being a scholar. Is it the basis of salvation also? See, this doesn't really clear it up. You're making an argument for works based salvation.

---

With respect, BTD, you say that because you are not considering what I said, but arguing because you want to win an argument.

Please read my post again with an open mind.

Thank you.

I'm not trying to "win" anything. I only want the truth to win. But if you're trying to communicate the belief that salvation is not by works, then maybe it's better to not give an analogy that seems to communicate that salvation is by works. You see, this makes it seem like you say one thing (salvation is by faith, works come from that faith) but then you understand or believe it to be another (salvation is by works). Because honestly, that's what you seem to be doing a lot in this thread, so I can't be sure.

For example, you now say that "if saved, always saved" but earlier you argued that Jesus warned we can lose what we have (we are the salt of the earth, and salt that loses its saltiness will be thrown out). So you give seemingly conflicting messages. There are other examples. Your analogy about scholars kinda does the same thing. That's why I'm asking you about it.

If your analogy didn't quite communicate your position, then it helps that you say so. If you just say, "read what I wrote" then that doesn't really help.

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

So what happens to all the Asians, Indians, Arabs, Jews, Americans and European non believers?

---

Two thoughts:

First, there are accounts in pretty much every culture of a strange prophet or priest who counseled forgiveness and peace. I cannot help but wonder if the concept of the Christophany extends to such cultures.

Second, there is a verse which shows up in both the Old Testament (Exodus 33:19) and the New Testament (Romans 9:15):

"I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy"

---

This verse is referring to those whom we already know He had mercy on and those whom He didn't as a group. The Jews and the Gentiles. In the OT, under the Law, it was the Jews who primarily received God's Salvation and under the NT, under Grace, it is the Gentiles who primarily receive God's Salvation. But there are exceptions in both cases.

---

You are missing the point, frodo. It's up to God, always, not some human rule.

---

God God's Grace is God's Work. Our Faith is OUR responsibility. It's a choice we make to believe God. It's not something that just happens to us without us making a choice to believe God. Without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

---

Sounds awfully conditional there, Frodo.

---

Well,.yes it is conditional on our Faith, it is not conditional on our good works. We MUST have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to pay or our sins because He died on the cross and rose again in our place...

---

So far, agreed. The question so many don't seem to want to answer, is how you make sure your faith is more than just pretense.

That's not to say we would judge someone else's faith by our own standards, but we need to make sure we are paying attention to whether we are doing what we want, or what Christ wants.

---

But you specifically stated that going to heaven is conditional on what you do, didn't you?

Here is your quote from a few posts back: "So you agree that what you do does, in fact, matter in whether you go to Heaven."

So how can you agree with frodo that it's not conditional on our good works, but here you're saying that it is? I'm honestly confused by your position.

---

I will say that, although our Salvation is in no way based on OUR works, but rather the finished work of Christ on the cross as a Sacrifice and it's faith in what He did for us that saves....genuine submission to God in faith should produce good works as a result of our faith and being born Spiritually into the family of God. Because God gives believers a new nature within them that WANTS to please God. So, obedience is a natural consequence of faith, although our Salvation is not based on it.

We are created for good works, NOT because of good works.

Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
[10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

---

I think it's wrong to say that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not.

What we do, rather, is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not.

The first statement seems to be saying that either 1) we earn salvation through our performance, or 2) we are saved first by grace through faith, but then we must "maintain" that grace by our performance. If we have to perform to receive or maintain grace, then it ceases to be grace. That's not the gospel. I'm not sure if this is what OldBear is saying, but he won't engage me to clarify.

---

IMO what we do matters in whether we go to heaven or not because "What we do…is reflective of whether we have real saving faith or not."

Put another way, IMO knowing where our faith is at matters and works are one way of reflecting that.

IMO that is one reason why Jesus, Paul, and James all speak to our actions and how they might be viewed as a part of our salvation. Not that they earn salvation, but because they are exactly what you said, a reflection of where our faith is at.

Thank you for sharing something of your own views. IMO we largely agree.

---

But it's still wrong to say that what we do matters whether we go to heaven or not, because not always will someone's real, saving faith be reflected in their works (thief on the cross, deathbed conversions, Christians who are physically disabled, new Christians who are still struggling in their sin). Conversely, just because someone does good works, it doesn't mean they have saving faith (Matthew 7:22-23)

At worst, saying that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven might convey the idea that one isn't saved until they do works, which might make them put their trust in what they're able to accomplish rather than what Jesus already accomplished.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

But it's still wrong to say that what we do matters whether we go to heaven or not, because not always will someone's real, saving faith be reflected in their works

Our works aren't perfect because we aren't perfect. This is also why earlier I used the temperature analogy rather than reflection. It's not a perfect test, but that doesn't mean works don't matter.

thief on the cross,

The thief on the cross did everything he could in the moment and for as long as he could.

deathbed conversions,

Will comment later

Christians who are physically disabled,

No one has ever said the only good works are building houses in South America. Works come in many different forms and can include simply listening to someone.

new Christians who are still struggling in their sin).

All Christians struggle with sin, new and old. Again, no one is perfect.

Conversely, just because someone does good works, it doesn't mean they have saving faith (Matthew 7:22-23)

I agree and fortunately I think Christian teachers have done a good job staying away from that because I don't know of any modern mainstream church that says "good works" necessarily means "good faith."

At worst, saying that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven might convey the idea that one isn't saved until they do works, which might make them put their trust in what they're able to accomplish rather than what Jesus already accomplished.

Yes and I've already said I think extreme "at worst" approaches should be avoided in either direction. Volunteering at a soup kitchen once a year (or even every day), just in case that whole God and heaven thing is real, and considering that faith - not good. Saying you believe in God but live an absolutely sin filled life with no regard for anyone else (murder, rape, etc.) and have no desire to change because you think no matter what you do you are going to heaven and never change your ways until the day you die - also not good. That is also not Biblical.

deathbed conversions

Sincere deathbed conversions can happen, but two things with that:

1) IMO "True faith" and "I want to get into heaven" are not exactly the same thing. How many "deathbed conversions" are the former and how many are the latter? I don't know how God views the latter.

2) What about the other 99% of Christians out there? How do they go about maintaining their faith and live a life in the way Jesus taught since they didn't wait until the last second? Maintaining something over time can sometimes be more challenging than jumping in at the end. Many I know say that their works help feed and challenge their faith in a healthy way and make them consider faith in new ways because of the works they did and experiences with other people. I don't think any of them would say that their works "didn't matter" in connection with their faith.

As a hypothetical to consider the value of works, what would happen if every single Christian stopped performing works of any kind because they "don't matter" in terms of getting into heaven?

---

"and do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased."
Hebrews 13:16

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

But it's still wrong to say that what we do matters whether we go to heaven or not, because not always will someone's real, saving faith be reflected in their works

Our works aren't perfect because we aren't perfect. This is also why earlier I used the temperature analogy rather than reflection. It's not a perfect test, but that doesn't mean works don't matter.

thief on the cross,

The thief on the cross did everything he could in the moment and for as long as he could.

deathbed conversions,

Will comment later

Christians who are physically disabled,

No one has ever said the only good works are building houses in South America. Works come in many different forms and can include simply listening to someone.

new Christians who are still struggling in their sin).

All Christians struggle with sin, new and old. Again, no one is perfect.

Conversely, just because someone does good works, it doesn't mean they have saving faith (Matthew 7:22-23)

I agree and fortunately I think Christian teachers have done a good job staying away from that because I don't know of any modern mainstream church that says "good works" necessarily means "good faith."

At worst, saying that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven might convey the idea that one isn't saved until they do works, which might make them put their trust in what they're able to accomplish rather than what Jesus already accomplished.

Yes and I've already said I think extreme "at worst" approaches should be avoided in either direction. Volunteering at a soup kitchen once a year (or even every day), just in case that whole God and heaven thing is real, and considering that faith - not good. Saying you believe in God but live an absolutely sin filled life with no regard for anyone else (murder, rape, etc.) and have no desire to change because you think no matter what you do you are going to heaven and never change your ways until the day you die - also not good. That is also not Biblical.

deathbed conversions

Sincere deathbed conversions can happen, but two things with that:

1) IMO "True faith" and "I want to get into heaven" are not exactly the same thing. How many "deathbed conversions" are the former and how many are the latter? I don't know how God views the latter.

2) What about the other 99% of Christians out there? How do they go about maintaining their faith and live a life in the way Jesus taught since they didn't wait until the last second? Maintaining something over time can sometimes be more challenging than jumping in at the end. Many I know say that their works help feed and challenge their faith in a healthy way and make them consider faith in new ways because of the works they did and experiences with other people. I don't think any of them would say that their works "didn't matter" in connection with their faith.

As a hypothetical to consider the value of works, what would happen if every single Christian stopped performing works of any kind because they "don't matter" in terms of getting into heaven?

---

"and do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased."
Hebrews 13:16

---

It doesn't have to be deathbed conversions. Anytime someone dies shortly after becoming a Christian, there's a good chance they won't have the works to show for it. What are you going to say to that person as they are dying, or to their loved ones who wonder if they are in heaven after their death - that "works matter in whether they go to heaven or not?" No, you wouldn't.

The point overall is this: if works do not determine your salvation, then we shouldn't be saying that works matter in whether you go to heaven or not. You're putting the focus on our performance and diverting away from what Jesus accomplished in our stead.

"I don't think any of them would say that their works 'didn't matter' in connection with their faith" - that's not what we're talking about, right? We're talking about works mattering in whether one goes to heaven. You're creating a straw man.

To answer your hypothetical, the only "Christians" who would stop works of any kind are those who aren't really Christians but only say they are. Because as we have all acknowledged, a true Christian with true faith will do works if they are able, regardless if works don't matter in getting into heaven. Because as you alluded to in your bible verse, true Christians want to please God.

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Our works aren't perfect because we aren't perfect. This is also why earlier I used the temperature analogy rather than reflection. It's not a perfect test, but that doesn't mean works don't matter.

The thief on the cross did everything he could in the moment and for as long as he could.

No one has ever said the only good works are building houses in South America. Works come in many different forms and can include simply listening to someone.

All Christians struggle with sin, new and old. Again, no one is perfect.

---

---

- Again, no one is saying "works don't matter". You seem to be trying really hard to change this discussion into something different.

- "The thief on the cross did everything he could for as long as he could" - he didn't do any works, he just confessed his faith to Jesus. You can consider that a "work" if you want, but whatever works you want to ascribe to him, those aren't what saved him. Do you believe if he just held his belief in his heart and died without doing anything, that he still would have been saved? If so, then works didn't matter towards his salvation.

- the physically disabled don't have the same opportunities to do works as healthy people, especially if they are severely disabled. So there will be a much greater chance that their faith won't be reflected in their works, that's the point. How much work can someone with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Lou Gherig's) show? I don't think you can credit them with "listening to someone". I don't think they have that choice.

- some Christians struggle with sin more than others. New Christians might be coming out of a deeply rooted sinful lifestyle that might have a stronger hold and thus take more to come out from. Therefore, early on they might be short on works. I would like to think that with time, though, Christians go through a sanctification process where the struggle with sin becomes less and less, and the "fruit" of their faith becomes more and more apparent. Every Christian is different and at a different stage in their sanctification, and each may progress at different rates and in different ways which would make the relationship between true, saving faith and works highly variable. Therefore, at a given point in time, works can be an unreliable indicator of someone's saving faith.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

It doesn't have to be deathbed conversions. Anytime someone dies shortly after becoming a Christian, there's a good chance they won't have the works to show for it. What are you going to say to that person as they are dying, or to their loved ones who wonder if they are in heaven after their death - that "works matter in whether they go to heaven or not?" No, you wouldn't.

See my comment regarding the thief on the cross - did what he could for as long as he could.

The point overall is this: if works do not determine your salvation, then we shouldn't be saying that works matter in whether you go to heaven or not. You're putting the focus on our performance and diverting away from what Jesus accomplished in our stead.

I am not. That is your view of works, not everyone's. Some consider works to be a gift from God to help them on their way. Viewed in that light, how can you say they aren't giving credit where it belongs?

"I don't think any of them would say that their works 'didn't matter' in connection with their faith" - that's not what we're talking about, right? We're talking about works mattering in whether one goes to heaven. You're creating a straw man.

That's exactly what we are talking about. You say faith in Jesus saves, right? I'm telling you for many people works have led to, help maintain, and reinforce their faith in Jesus.

To answer your hypothetical, the only "Christians" who would stop works of any kind are those who aren't really Christians but only say they are. Because as we have all acknowledged, a true Christian with true faith will do works if they are able, regardless if works don't matter in getting into heaven. Because as you alluded to in your bible verse, true Christians want to please God.

I thought you didn't approve of evading questions. What would happen if every single Christian stopped doing works because they "don't matter" in terms of getting into heaven?

Again, no one is saying "works don't matter". You seem to be trying really hard to change this discussion into something different.

I'm not. Again, for many people, works have led to, help maintain, and reinforce their faith in Jesus. Doesn't mean Jesus doesn't get the credit, but they are a part of the path and can serve as tool to help keep people on the path and show where they are at.

- "The thief on the cross did everything he could for as long as he could" - he didn't do any works, he just confessed his faith to Jesus. You can consider that a "work" if you want, but whatever works you want to ascribe to him, those aren't what saved him. Do you believe if he just held his belief in his heart and died without doing anything, that he still would have been saved? If so, then works didn't matter towards his salvation.

I didn't say his works saved him. I said he did what he did because of his faith. Many Christians consider confession a work.

- the physically disabled don't have the same opportunities to do works as healthy people, especially if they are severely disabled. So there will be a much greater chance that their faith won't be reflected in their works, that's the point. How much work can someone with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Lou Gherig's) show? I don't think you can credit them with "listening to someone". I don't think they have that choice.

You are really limiting works to swinging a hammer here. Again, see my comment regarding the thief on the cross - did what he could for as long as he could. We have all been blessed with different gifts to use in serving God and you seem to have a very limited view on what different people do in service. I've met some truly inspiring physically disabled Christians who did what they could. Sing loudly, offer free Christian based financial advice, share your struggles so that someone else might see a way through theirs, smile and greet people at church, sit at the church office and fold mailers, help maintain a church website, and yes - listen to someone and pray for them. I've seen a lot of different works over the years. No one is saying Christians in a coma aren't getting into heaven because they have been lying around doing nothing.

- some Christians struggle with sin more than others. New Christians might be coming out of a deeply rooted sinful lifestyle that might have a stronger hold and thus take more to come out from. Therefore, early on they might be short on works. I would like to think that with time, though, Christians go through a sanctification process where the struggle with sin becomes less and less, and the "fruit" of their faith becomes more and more apparent. Every Christian is different and at a different stage in their sanctification, and each may progress at different rates and in different ways which would make the relationship between true, saving faith and works highly variable. Therefore, at a given point in time, works can be an unreliable indicator of someone's saving faith.

I agree with just about all of this, but you seem to be viewing works in a cumulative and rank order way (1 point for this, 5 points for that). As said before, no one is perfect and works aren't a perfect reading for exactly what is going on in someone's heart. I don't envision St. Peter at the pearly gates with a tally sheet counting up works points or taking someone's temperature at the exact moment of death. But for a lot of people, works have been a part of getting to and staying at that "true, saving faith."

---

I'm no priest, pastor, or missionary, but I've been on my fair share of outreaches and just listened to people talk about their faith journey and what happened to get them to having faith in Jesus and what they do to maintain their love for God and belief in Jesus through life's challenges. Many mentioned works of some type ranging from construction to quietly praying for others at home.

I don't see how I could tell them those works "don't really matter" in getting them into heaven when they are thanking God for the opportunity to do the works they did and/or still do and how those works helped them to know Jesus.

Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."
The work of the reign of God

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

It doesn't have to be deathbed conversions. Anytime someone dies shortly after becoming a Christian, there's a good chance they won't have the works to show for it. What are you going to say to that person as they are dying, or to their loved ones who wonder if they are in heaven after their death - that "works matter in whether they go to heaven or not?" No, you wouldn't.

See my comment regarding the thief on the cross - did what he could for as long as he could.

The point overall is this: if works do not determine your salvation, then we shouldn't be saying that works matter in whether you go to heaven or not. You're putting the focus on our performance and diverting away from what Jesus accomplished in our stead.

I am not. That is your view of works, not everyone's. Some consider works to be a gift from God to help them on their way. Viewed in that light, how can you say they aren't giving credit where it belongs?

"I don't think any of them would say that their works 'didn't matter' in connection with their faith" - that's not what we're talking about, right? We're talking about works mattering in whether one goes to heaven. You're creating a straw man.

That's exactly what we are talking about. You say faith in Jesus saves, right? I'm telling you for many people works have led to, help maintain, and reinforce their faith in Jesus.

To answer your hypothetical, the only "Christians" who would stop works of any kind are those who aren't really Christians but only say they are. Because as we have all acknowledged, a true Christian with true faith will do works if they are able, regardless if works don't matter in getting into heaven. Because as you alluded to in your bible verse, true Christians want to please God.

I thought you didn't approve of evading questions. What would happen if every single Christian stopped doing works because they "don't matter" in terms of getting into heaven?

Again, no one is saying "works don't matter". You seem to be trying really hard to change this discussion into something different.

I'm not. Again, for many people, works have led to, help maintain, and reinforce their faith in Jesus. Doesn't mean Jesus doesn't get the credit, but they are a part of the path and can serve as tool to help keep people on the path and show where they are at.

- "The thief on the cross did everything he could for as long as he could" - he didn't do any works, he just confessed his faith to Jesus. You can consider that a "work" if you want, but whatever works you want to ascribe to him, those aren't what saved him. Do you believe if he just held his belief in his heart and died without doing anything, that he still would have been saved? If so, then works didn't matter towards his salvation.

I didn't say his works saved him. I said he did what he did because of his faith. Many Christians consider confession a work.

- the physically disabled don't have the same opportunities to do works as healthy people, especially if they are severely disabled. So there will be a much greater chance that their faith won't be reflected in their works, that's the point. How much work can someone with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (Lou Gherig's) show? I don't think you can credit them with "listening to someone". I don't think they have that choice.

You are really limiting works to swinging a hammer here. Again, see my comment regarding the thief on the cross - did what he could for as long as he could. We have all been blessed with different gifts to use in serving God and you seem to have a very limited view on what different people do in service. I've met some truly inspiring physically disabled Christians who did what they could. Sing loudly, offer free Christian based financial advice, share your struggles so that someone else might see a way through theirs, smile and greet people at church, sit at the church office and fold mailers, help maintain a church website, and yes - listen to someone and pray for them. I've seen a lot of different works over the years. No one is saying Christians in a coma aren't getting into heaven because they have been lying around doing nothing.

- some Christians struggle with sin more than others. New Christians might be coming out of a deeply rooted sinful lifestyle that might have a stronger hold and thus take more to come out from. Therefore, early on they might be short on works. I would like to think that with time, though, Christians go through a sanctification process where the struggle with sin becomes less and less, and the "fruit" of their faith becomes more and more apparent. Every Christian is different and at a different stage in their sanctification, and each may progress at different rates and in different ways which would make the relationship between true, saving faith and works highly variable. Therefore, at a given point in time, works can be an unreliable indicator of someone's saving faith.

I agree with just about all of this, but you seem to be viewing works in a cumulative and rank order way (1 point for this, 5 points for that). As said before, no one is perfect and works aren't a perfect reading for exactly what is going on in someone's heart. I don't envision St. Peter at the pearly gates with a tally sheet counting up works points or taking someone's temperature at the exact moment of death. But for a lot of people, works have been a part of getting to and staying at that "true, saving faith."

---

---

- the thief on the cross shows that works don't matter in whether one goes to heaven or not.

- saying that "works matter in whether or not one goes to heaven" is putting the focus of your salvation on your works, not faith. It doesn't matter what your view of works is. Even if works somehow led to or help someone maintain their faith in Jesus, that statement is still focusing on what you did, and not what Jesus did. What you did was NOT determinative of your salvation. What Jesus did, and your faith in him, is. This isn't difficult.

- I'm not sure how works "leads to, maintains, or reinforces" faith in Jesus, but saying that it does is saying that your works was determinative of your salvation. You're putting the cart in front of the horse. You're saying that had you not done something, you never would have been saved.

- I didn't evade your question. I said that true Christians would NOT stop doing works. Your asking a question that is akin to asking "what if God sinned?". The answer would be first and foremost that God does not sin, otherwise He wouldn't be God. Similarly, if all Christians stopped doing works, then they wouldn't be Christians. So your question is self defeating. Make sense?

- Yes, you said the thief on the cross did what he did because of his faith. But now you're evading the question - do you believe that had he not "done" anything but rather believed in his heart, that Jesus still would have saved him? Because if you do, then works didn't matter whether he went to heaven or not. So we shouldn't say that it does.

- If someone is physically incapable of doing anything, even communicate, but in their heart they come to believe in Jesus, and all they can do is lie there afterwards - if you're not saying that person isn't going to heaven, then don't say that "works matter whether someone goes to heaven or not".


You're really trying hard to justify the statement "works matter in whether you go to heaven or not", but it's easier just to try to understand it's colloquial meaning to be saying that works are determinative of one's salvation. In that light, if that's wrong, and if it's not what you believe, then you shouldn't be saying it.

If someone is a musician, they perform music.

If someone is a doctor, they help the injured and sick.

If someone is a firefighter, they go to fires and put them out.

If someone is a builder, they build homes and businesses.

if someone is a police officer, they protect against crime.

If someone is an author, they write books, plays or essays.

So, if someone follows Christ, they will act as Christ commanded us to act.


It always seemed strange to me to hear someone make such a deal of 'going to Heaven', without thinking about why such a place exists. When we are in Heaven, we will be in a place where the standard is perfection, which is beyond our ability in this life. The Holy Spirt makes it possible to be perfect through the Grace of God, but the Gospel accounts and Letters make clear that we start a journey towards God once we repent of our sins and change our ways.

So while we are not saved by works, if we are saved we will do what a Christian does out of love and gratitude.

Oldbear83 said:

---

If someone is a musician, they perform music.

If someone is a doctor, they help the injured and sick.

If someone is a firefighter, they go to fires and put them out.

If someone is a builder, they build homes and businesses.

if someone is a police officer, they protect against crime.

If someone is an author, they write books, plays or essays.

So, if someone follows Christ, they will act as Christ commanded us to act.

---

Yes, a follower of Christ will....follow Christ. That is a tautology.

But does the act of their following save them, or is it their faith? A scholar isn't a scholar if they haven't done scholarly work. But is a saved person not a saved person if they haven't done Christian work?

Oldbear83 said:

---

It always seemed strange to me to hear someone make such a deal of 'going to Heaven', without thinking about why such a place exists. When we are in Heaven, we will be in a place where the standard is perfection, which is beyond our ability in this life. The Holy Spirt makes it possible to be perfect through the Grace of God, but the Gospel accounts and Letters make clear that we start a journey towards God once we repent of our sins and change our ways.

So while we are not saved by works, if we are saved we will do what a Christian does out of love and gratitude.

---

Who do you think is doing that, and who do think is disagreeing with your last sentence or is saying something different?

If God is grace, is there any room for. any of kind negative attribute like say "wrath" or "judgment" .
Can judgement exist alongside grace? I'm talking about final judgement. Theologically and philosophically if grace is God's nature is grace then can judgement be a part of God?

Waco1947 said:

---

If God is grace, is there any room for. any of kind negative attribute like say "wrath" or "judgment" .
Can judgement exist alongside grace? I'm talking about final judgement. Theologically and philosophically if grace is God's nature is grace then can judgement be a part of God?

---

Waco, consider what we know about those who are not in Heaven. Wailing and gnashing of teeth and darkness are all specifically mentioned, which matters because the first two are consistent with someone realizing a serious mistake they made, and the darkness reflecting the absence of light, which to me represents both God's goodness and wisdom.

That is, we bring these things onto ourselves if we will not heed God. An ironic truth some people have a hard time learning, is that real joy comes from putting others ahead of ourselves, and in doing the right thing even when it seems to cause us only hardship. Meanwhile those who spend their lives seeking only pleasure and feeding themselves find in the end they are alone with nothing that really matters.

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

But it's still wrong to say that what we do matters whether we go to heaven or not, because not always will someone's real, saving faith be reflected in their works

Our works aren't perfect because we aren't perfect. This is also why earlier I used the temperature analogy rather than reflection. It's not a perfect test, but that doesn't mean works don't matter.

thief on the cross,

The thief on the cross did everything he could in the moment and for as long as he could.

deathbed conversions,

Will comment later

Christians who are physically disabled,

No one has ever said the only good works are building houses in South America. Works come in many different forms and can include simply listening to someone.

new Christians who are still struggling in their sin).

All Christians struggle with sin, new and old. Again, no one is perfect.

Conversely, just because someone does good works, it doesn't mean they have saving faith (Matthew 7:22-23)

I agree and fortunately I think Christian teachers have done a good job staying away from that because I don't know of any modern mainstream church that says "good works" necessarily means "good faith."

At worst, saying that what we do matters in whether we go to heaven might convey the idea that one isn't saved until they do works, which might make them put their trust in what they're able to accomplish rather than what Jesus already accomplished.

Yes and I've already said I think extreme "at worst" approaches should be avoided in either direction. Volunteering at a soup kitchen once a year (or even every day), just in case that whole God and heaven thing is real, and considering that faith - not good. Saying you believe in God but live an absolutely sin filled life with no regard for anyone else (murder, rape, etc.) and have no desire to change because you think no matter what you do you are going to heaven and never change your ways until the day you die - also not good. That is also not Biblical.

deathbed conversions

Sincere deathbed conversions can happen, but two things with that:

1) IMO "True faith" and "I want to get into heaven" are not exactly the same thing. How many "deathbed conversions" are the former and how many are the latter? I don't know how God views the latter.

2) What about the other 99% of Christians out there? How do they go about maintaining their faith and live a life in the way Jesus taught since they didn't wait until the last second? Maintaining something over time can sometimes be more challenging than jumping in at the end. Many I know say that their works help feed and challenge their faith in a healthy way and make them consider faith in new ways because of the works they did and experiences with other people. I don't think any of them would say that their works "didn't matter" in connection with their faith.

As a hypothetical to consider the value of works, what would happen if every single Christian stopped performing works of any kind because they "don't matter" in terms of getting into heaven?

---

"and do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased."
Hebrews 13:16

---

He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

What Church did you attend today?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

- the thief on the cross shows that works don't matter in whether one goes to heaven or not.

The thief on the cross only had time to do one act of works and he acted on it. That doesn't mean other people have not felt works were are a part of their saving faith at some point in time.

- saying that "works matter in whether or not one goes to heaven" is putting the focus of your salvation on your works, not faith. It doesn't matter what your view of works is. Even if works somehow led to or help someone maintain their faith in Jesus, that statement is still focusing on what you did, and not what Jesus did. What you did was NOT determinative of your salvation. What Jesus did, and your faith in him, is. This isn't difficult.

Agree to disagree here. That is the way you see works. Not everyone views works through your lens. As I have said many times, I view works as a (imprecise at times) reading of where your faith is at. I also consider following all of Jesus' teachings (and that includes the works He told us to do) as a part of my "faith in Him."

Others view work as a gift from God (which would then make it a gift of grace) and they give thanks to God for putting works in their lives as something that has grown or strengthened their faith in Jesus and belief that He died for us. They aren't lauding their works and boasting about what they are doing. If they know it is by faith in Jesus' life and God's grace that they might be saved and that they are never able to earn salvation based on themselves, I don't care exactly how they view works.

- I'm not sure how works "leads to, maintains, or reinforces" faith in Jesus, but saying that it does is saying that your works was determinative of your salvation. You're putting the cart in front of the horse. You're saying that had you not done something, you never would have been saved.

Faith in Jesus is not always an orderly "this then that" process that always moves in a straight line. For the "work is a gift from God" folks, they might be thinking, "Thank you God for the gift of work in my life. Had you not done so, I might have strayed from the path and lost sight of Jesus. You have truly blessed me in many ways."

For a run of the mill example, let's say someone is struggling with faith and is very near to deciding that's it's just all hogwash and everything about God is made up. But a friend of theirs convinces them to give it one last shot and go on a retreat. At that retreat they hear the words they need to hear and get the support they need. Their faith is somewhat redirected and they then rejoin a church and begin the process again of reinvigorating their faith and belief in Jesus.

Going on a retreat definitely counts as a "work". Did this work possibly have an effect on their salvation?

- I didn't evade your question. I said that true Christians would NOT stop doing works. Your asking a question that is akin to asking "what if God sinned?". The answer would be first and foremost that God does not sin, otherwise He wouldn't be God. Similarly, if all Christians stopped doing works, then they wouldn't be Christians. So your question is self defeating. Make sense?

God cannot sin. Christians can stop doing works. If your answer is that they would cease being Christians, then it would seem those works were important.

- Yes, you said the thief on the cross did what he did because of his faith. But now you're evading the question - do you believe that had he not "done" anything but rather believed in his heart, that Jesus still would have saved him? Because if you do, then works didn't matter whether he went to heaven or not. So we shouldn't say that it does.

I'm not evading at all. I said several posts back his faith saved him and that his faith was shown in his singular work.

- If someone is physically incapable of doing anything, even communicate, but in their heart they come to believe in Jesus, and all they can do is lie there afterwards - if you're not saying that person isn't going to heaven, then don't say that "works matter whether someone goes to heaven or not".

This sounds like someone who is trying to get out of doing something they know they are supposed to be doing based on a technicality. "Because of God's saving grace and the technicality of Locked In Syndrome, works aren't necessary and therefore don't matter at all for anyone for their salvation."

What about the other 99% of Christians?

You're really trying hard to justify the statement "works matter in whether you go to heaven or not", but it's easier just to try to understand it's colloquial meaning to be saying that works are determinative of one's salvation. In that light, if that's wrong, and if it's not what you believe, then you shouldn't be saying it.

I understand its colloquial meaning. I just feel that a brief, "Faith saves, not works" statement does not paint a full picture for a lot of Christians. You are trying hard at insisting works don't ever matter in a Christian's faith journey towards salvation because…Locked In Syndrome.

I think it's probably more accurate to say IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven. The difference (as I read it) between our views seems to lie in your belief works are always credited to the person and therefore cannot be considered an aid of any kind in salvation and I just don't agree with that.

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

- the thief on the cross shows that works don't matter in whether one goes to heaven or not.

The thief on the cross only had time to do one act of works and he acted on it. That doesn't mean other people have not felt works were are a part of their saving faith at some point in time.

- saying that "works matter in whether or not one goes to heaven" is putting the focus of your salvation on your works, not faith. It doesn't matter what your view of works is. Even if works somehow led to or help someone maintain their faith in Jesus, that statement is still focusing on what you did, and not what Jesus did. What you did was NOT determinative of your salvation. What Jesus did, and your faith in him, is. This isn't difficult.

Agree to disagree here. That is the way you see works. Not everyone views works through your lens. As I have said many times, I view works as a (imprecise at times) reading of where your faith is at. I also consider following all of Jesus' teachings (and that includes the works He told us to do) as a part of my "faith in Him."

Others view work as a gift from God (which would then make it a gift of grace) and they give thanks to God for putting works in their lives as something that has grown or strengthened their faith in Jesus and belief that He died for us. They aren't lauding their works and boasting about what they are doing. If they know it is by faith in Jesus' life and God's grace that they might be saved and that they are never able to earn salvation based on themselves, I don't care exactly how they view works.

- I'm not sure how works "leads to, maintains, or reinforces" faith in Jesus, but saying that it does is saying that your works was determinative of your salvation. You're putting the cart in front of the horse. You're saying that had you not done something, you never would have been saved.

Faith in Jesus is not always an orderly "this then that" process that always moves in a straight line. For the "work is a gift from God" folks, they might be thinking, "Thank you God for the gift of work in my life. Had you not done so, I might have strayed from the path and lost sight of Jesus. You have truly blessed me in many ways."

For a run of the mill example, let's say someone is struggling with faith and is very near to deciding that's it's just all hogwash and everything about God is made up. But a friend of theirs convinces them to give it one last shot and go on a retreat. At that retreat they hear the words they need to hear and get the support they need. Their faith is somewhat redirected and they then rejoin a church and begin the process again of reinvigorating their faith and belief in Jesus.

Going on a retreat definitely counts as a "work". Did this work possibly have an effect on their salvation?

- I didn't evade your question. I said that true Christians would NOT stop doing works. Your asking a question that is akin to asking "what if God sinned?". The answer would be first and foremost that God does not sin, otherwise He wouldn't be God. Similarly, if all Christians stopped doing works, then they wouldn't be Christians. So your question is self defeating. Make sense?

God cannot sin. Christians can stop doing works. If your answer is that they would cease being Christians, then it would seem those works were important.

- Yes, you said the thief on the cross did what he did because of his faith. But now you're evading the question - do you believe that had he not "done" anything but rather believed in his heart, that Jesus still would have saved him? Because if you do, then works didn't matter whether he went to heaven or not. So we shouldn't say that it does.

I'm not evading at all. I said several posts back his faith saved him and that his faith was shown in his singular work.

- If someone is physically incapable of doing anything, even communicate, but in their heart they come to believe in Jesus, and all they can do is lie there afterwards - if you're not saying that person isn't going to heaven, then don't say that "works matter whether someone goes to heaven or not".

This sounds like someone who is trying to get out of doing something they know they are supposed to be doing based on a technicality. "Because of God's saving grace and the technicality of Locked In Syndrome, works aren't necessary and therefore don't matter at all for anyone for their salvation."

What about the other 99% of Christians?

You're really trying hard to justify the statement "works matter in whether you go to heaven or not", but it's easier just to try to understand it's colloquial meaning to be saying that works are determinative of one's salvation. In that light, if that's wrong, and if it's not what you believe, then you shouldn't be saying it.

I understand its colloquial meaning. I just feel that a brief, "Faith saves, not works" statement does not paint a full picture for a lot of Christians. You are trying hard at insisting works don't ever matter in a Christian's faith journey towards salvation because…Locked In Syndrome.

I think it's probably more accurate to say IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven. The difference (as I read it) between our views seems to lie in your belief works are always credited to the person and therefore cannot be considered an aid of any kind in salvation and I just don't agree with that.

---

---

The problem here is that you're not arguing that works matters towards ones salvation, you're really arguing that works can matter towards one's faith. And through the transitive property, i.e. since faith is what saves, you then feel able to claim that "works matters towards whether one is saved".

But that is just using sleight of hand. Using that logic, I can also argue that "one's musical ability matters in whether one goes to heaven" by arguing that one's musical ability might lead them to a path towards a belief in God, such as being invited to church to help with the music, where they will learn the gospel and become saved. Even though that can happen, that is clearly not the meaning of that phrase in common usage. Saying "musical ability matters whether one goes to heaven" is going to mean to most everyone that one's musical ability is a determinative factor in your salvation. It clearly isn't. So it would be wrong to say that.

You are taking liberties with the phrase "works matter in whether one goes to heaven" for a contrarian argument's sake, and I get why you want to do that here, but out there in the world it'd be irresponsible, given that the biblical gospel is that "we are saved by grace through faith, not by works, lest any man should boast" but yet you'd be promoting a statement that most likely will communicate to most people the idea that works is a determinative factor in one's salvation, thus seemingly contradicting the biblical gospel. We need to be careful with what we say about salvation and how it will be perceived.

You know there is a debate over salvation by works vs. faith in Christianity that is sure to confuse new Christians. If you believe the correct gospel is that we are saved by faith, not works....would you really tell a prospective Christian that "works matter in whether you go to heaven" in this context? What do you think they'll take you to mean?

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

The thief on the cross only had time to do one act of works and he acted on it. That doesn't mean other people have not felt works were are a part of their saving faith at some point in time.

Agree to disagree here. That is the way you see works. Not everyone views works through your lens. As I have said many times, I view works as a (imprecise at times) reading of where your faith is at. I also consider following all of Jesus' teachings (and that includes the works He told us to do) as a part of my "faith in Him."

Others view work as a gift from God (which would then make it a gift of grace) and they give thanks to God for putting works in their lives as something that has grown or strengthened their faith in Jesus and belief that He died for us. They aren't lauding their works and boasting about what they are doing. If they know it is by faith in Jesus' life and God's grace that they might be saved and that they are never able to earn salvation based on themselves, I don't care exactly how they view works.

Faith in Jesus is not always an orderly "this then that" process that always moves in a straight line. For the "work is a gift from God" folks, they might be thinking, "Thank you God for the gift of work in my life. Had you not done so, I might have strayed from the path and lost sight of Jesus. You have truly blessed me in many ways."

For a run of the mill example, let's say someone is struggling with faith and is very near to deciding that's it's just all hogwash and everything about God is made up. But a friend of theirs convinces them to give it one last shot and go on a retreat. At that retreat they hear the words they need to hear and get the support they need. Their faith is somewhat redirected and they then rejoin a church and begin the process again of reinvigorating their faith and belief in Jesus.

Going on a retreat definitely counts as a "work". Did this work possibly have an effect on their salvation?

God cannot sin. Christians can stop doing works. If your answer is that they would cease being Christians, then it would seem those works were important.

I'm not evading at all. I said several posts back his faith saved him and that his faith was shown in his singular work.

This sounds like someone who is trying to get out of doing something they know they are supposed to be doing based on a technicality. "Because of God's saving grace and the technicality of Locked In Syndrome, works aren't necessary and therefore don't matter at all for anyone for their salvation."

What about the other 99% of Christians?

I think it's probably more accurate to say IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven. The difference (as I read it) between our views seems to lie in your belief works are always credited to the person and therefore cannot be considered an aid of any kind in salvation and I just don't agree with that.

---

---

Just to address some of your other points:

We can argue in circles about the thief on the cross. The inescapable fact, one that we both agree on, is that he was saved by his faith, not by whatever "work" you want to ascribe to him. And if you agree that if he had done nothing but just held his faith in his heart, that he would still have been saved, then his "work" didn't matter towards his salvation. So in the case of the thief, that statement is wrong.

"God cannot sin. Christians can stop doing works. If your answer is that they would cease being Christians, then it would seem those works were important." - If you're belief is that true faith WILL result in works, then a Christian who is defined as having true faith WILL do works; so if they stop doing works, that would mean, according to what you believe, that they don't have true faith - which would mean that they aren't true Christians. So, based on your own belief, this question is self defeating. Your statement "Christians can stop doing works" would also be wrong. Yes, it means those works were important - just not salvivic. No one argued that they weren't important.

"This sounds like someone who is trying to get out of doing something they know they are supposed to be doing based on a technicality. "Because of God's saving grace and the technicality of Locked In Syndrome, works aren't necessary and therefore don't matter at all for anyone for their salvation." - No, this is another bad straw man. Answer my question - if someone with ALS becomes a Christian and can do nothing but lie there afterwards, would you tell that person or that person's family that "works matter whether you go to heaven or not"?

"What about the other 99% of Christians?" The exact same applies: salvation is by faith, not by works. So just like with the guy with ALS, I wouldn't tell them that "works matter in whether they go to heaven or not" lest they believe that going to heaven depends on one's performance.

90sBear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.