xfrodobagginsx said:

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90sBear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

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I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Looking through this thread, I don't see even one person claiming we are saved by works, so I think we can move on to the real questions.

I find it interesting, Frodo, that you note that a "true believer will always be one". I agree with that, but we need - I think - to stop and consider what makes someone a true believer.

There are a number of verses where Christ made clear we must not presume we are good servants just because we want to believe we are so. Jesus warned about good and poor servants, about wise and foolish virgins,, about keeping watch and so on. There is even a verse about a man invited to the wedding, but because he is not dressed properly for the occasion he is cast out.

These are serious warnings we should not ignore.

Works are signs of gratitude. Works, also help us live life more abundantly Works give a sense of connection to world (people) and connections are relationships and relationships lead to love. Keep up the good works; your salvation is already taken care of by Jesus..

xfrodobagginsx said:

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90sBear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Assurance of one's salvation should be dependent on what Jesus did, and his promise to give to anyone who asks. If one places any of their assurance in their works, then they run the risk of being like the ones in Matthew 7:22-23 who thought that their works were proof that they were saved: "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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90sBear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Looking through this thread, I don't see even one person claiming we are saved by works, so I think we can move on to the real questions.

I find it interesting, Frodo, that you note that a "true believer will always be one". I agree with that, but we need - I think - to stop and consider what makes someone a true believer.

There are a number of verses where Christ made clear we must not presume we are good servants just because we want to believe we are so. Jesus warned about good and poor servants, about wise and foolish virgins,, about keeping watch and so on. There is even a verse about a man invited to the wedding, but because he is not dressed properly for the occasion he is cast out.

These are serious warnings we should not ignore.

---

The man invited to the wedding was cast out because he presumed he could get in on his own terms, instead of wearing the garment provided (which could represent Jesus' covering of his sin, meaning the man thought he didn't need it).

But regardless - what do you think these are seriously warning us about? That we can lose our salvation if we don't produce works from our faith?

Oldbear83 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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90sBear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Looking through this thread, I don't see even one person claiming we are saved by works, so I think we can move on to the real questions.

---

But there have been some suggestion that works are required to maintain or keep our salvation. That is a very important topic we should not move on from.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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90sBear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Assurance of one's salvation should be dependent on what Jesus did, and his promise to give to anyone who asks. If one places any of their assurance in their works, then they run the risk of being like the ones in Matthew 7:22-23 who thought that their works were proof that they were saved: "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

---

I am not saying to rely on your works for Salvation, but stepping out of God's will, will cause doubt and serving Within His will will bring assurance and peace with God. I understand where you are coming from though. We look to Christ and His death and resurrection as His finished work of Salvation. But when I was out of God's will, I had doubts, even though I didn't look to my works to save me. It was when I came back into God's will in my life that He gave me peace and assurance.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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90sBear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

Assurance of one's salvation should be dependent on what Jesus did, and his promise to give to anyone who asks. If one places any of their assurance in their works, then they run the risk of being like the ones in Matthew 7:22-23 who thought that their works were proof that they were saved: "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

---

I am not saying to rely on your works for Salvation, but stepping out of God's will, will cause doubt and serving Within His will will bring assurance and peace with God. I understand where you are coming from though. We look to Christ and His death and resurrection as His finished work of Salvation. But when I was out of God's will, I had doubts, even though I didn't look to my works to save me. It was when I came back into God's will in my life that He gave me peace and assurance.

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Yes, I agree fully. Our sense of assurance comes from our spiritual connection with Jesus/God, and realigning yourself with God by your works does strengthen that connection. I experience the same thing. Good of you to share.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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But that is just using sleight of hand. Using that logic, I can also argue that "one's musical ability matters in whether one goes to heaven" by arguing that one's musical ability might lead them to a path towards a belief in God, such as being invited to church to help with the music, where they will learn the gospel and become saved. Even though that can happen, that is clearly not the meaning of that phrase in common usage. Saying "musical ability matters whether one goes to heaven" is going to mean to most everyone that one's musical ability is a determinative factor in your salvation. It clearly isn't. So it would be wrong to say that.

Yes, many musically inclined Christians have viewed their musical ability as a gift from God that has been a part of their faith journey towards salvation and that was exactly what it meant to them. This is why I like to listen to people's self reports on their own faith journey. I have learned that it is often not a simple pat answer.

As I clarified, IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven.

You are taking liberties with the phrase "works matter in whether one goes to heaven" for a contrarian argument's sake, and I get why you want to do that here, but out there in the world it'd be irresponsible, given that the biblical gospel is that "we are saved by grace through faith, not by works, lest any man should boast" but yet you'd be promoting a statement that most likely will communicate to most people the idea that works is a determinative factor in one's salvation, thus seemingly contradicting the biblical gospel. We need to be careful with what we say about salvation and how it will be perceived.

What you call liberties other Christians have called an important part of their personal faith. Again, you only worry about "not good" views of salvation in one direction, I worry about both directions.

As I said before, if they know it is by faith in Jesus' life and God's grace that they might be saved, that they are never able to earn salvation based on themselves, and give God the credit for their works, that's all I really care about. I think it would be irresponsible to tell someone who is in a good place spiritually that they are wrong about their exact views on works if that is what is working for them. Really not much more to say on this.

You know there is a debate over salvation by works vs. faith in Christianity that is sure to confuse new Christians. If you believe the correct gospel is that we are saved by faith, not works....would you really tell a prospective Christian that "works matter in whether you go to heaven" in this context? What do you think they'll take you to mean?

First off, to be honest I don't hear this debate get much discussion anymore as I don't think most Christians trouble themselves with it.

Secondly, I wouldn't say that to them. I would say: This is an essay that lines up closely with my views: [url=https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/faith-and-works/][/url]https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/faith-and-works/

I would then ask them what their views are and I would listen to them.

We can argue in circles about the thief on the cross. The inescapable fact, one that we both agree on, is that he was saved by his faith, not by whatever "work" you want to ascribe to him. And if you agree that if he had done nothing but just held his faith in his heart, that he would still have been saved, then his "work" didn't matter towards his salvation. So in the case of the thief, that statement is wrong.

And the other 99% that did not wait to choose to have faith in Jesus in the final hour before their death? How have works mattered in all of their lives? Most of them are going to be alive long enough to have a conversation deeper than just, "salvation is by faith, not by works."

"God cannot sin. Christians can stop doing works. If your answer is that they would cease being Christians, then it would seem those works were important." - If you're belief is that true faith WILL result in works, then a Christian who is defined as having true faith WILL do works; so if they stop doing works, that would mean, according to what you believe, that they don't have true faith - which would mean that they aren't true Christians. So, based on your own belief, this question is self defeating. Your statement "Christians can stop doing works" would also be wrong. Yes, it means those works were important - just not salvivic. No one argued that they weren't important.

Christians can stop doing works. If you don't know this, you haven't spoken with enough people. I have said that works are an imperfect temperature reading of faith, not that Christians will always be perfect at being Christians.

"This sounds like someone who is trying to get out of doing something they know they are supposed to be doing based on a technicality. "Because of God's saving grace and the technicality of Locked In Syndrome, works aren't necessary and therefore don't matter at all for anyone for their salvation." - No, this is another bad straw man. Answer my question - if someone with ALS becomes a Christian and can do nothing but lie there afterwards, would you tell that person or that person's family that "works matter whether you go to heaven or not"?

It's not an argument so it isn't a straw man. It is just what the tone sounds like to me. You did not ask a question when you first posted the scenario.

[Preface - in regards to works, the Bible is generally speaking to the 99% of the population not going through ALS]

I have already addressed this scenario - the thief on the cross did what he could for as long as he could.

I would tell them to have faith in Jesus who knows what suffering is and to pray for God's saving grace. I would say let's do together what we can for as long as they can. I would talk to the patient and pray with them (their works). If they haven't been baptized, I would ask them if they would like to be (no, I'm not saying this is a requirement). Would they like to receive communion? If they can't speak, then I will pray and allow for silent pauses so that they can pray silently to themselves. If they lose cognitive ability, I already said no one is saying Christians in a coma aren't going to heaven for a lack of trying.

Have you ever been involved with hospital ministry of any kind? This is all pretty straightforward within that community.

---

For a run of the mill example, let's say someone is struggling with faith and is very near to deciding that's it's just all hogwash and everything about God is made up. But a friend of theirs convinces them to give it one last shot and go on a retreat. At that retreat they hear the words they need to hear and get the support they need. Their faith is somewhat redirected and they then rejoin a church and begin the process again of reinvigorating their faith and belief in Jesus.

Going on a retreat definitely counts as a "work". Did this work possibly have an effect on their salvation? If the person was telling you how important this event was in their walk towards faith in Jesus and belief that He died so that we may live, would you tell them they are wrong and it didn't matter?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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90sBear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

He is talking to Believers who are already saved, telling them to do good works, NOT for Salvation, but because they are already saved.

---

I agree that he is talking to believers and that is largely his emphasis, but IMO even believers sometimes need works to keep them on a path seeking Christ.

Talking about someone in the Bible is past tense, we know their outcome. But talking about someone alive here and now is different in my mind. I know people who once said they were strong believers that I would now describe as agnostic at best.

I know people who say that their faith had sometimes waned and finding works to do helped keep them in a faith seeking direction.

Yes - this definitely shows how inaccurate works can sometimes be showing how strong someone's faith is - going through the motions as an example. But it is also indicative that works can also be stabilizing and even inspiring for believers in terms maintaining their faith.

---

.

I believe that a true believer will always be one, but they can step out of God's will, which causes doubts. Works for Christ do help with assurance of Salvation, but they don't save.

---

90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Yes, many musically inclined Christians have viewed their musical ability as a gift from God that has been a part of their faith journey towards salvation and that was exactly what it meant to them. This is why I like to listen to people's self reports on their own faith journey. I have learned that it is often not a simple pat answer.

As I clarified, IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven.

What you call liberties other Christians have called an important part of their personal faith. Again, you only worry about "not good" views of salvation in one direction, I worry about both directions.

As I said before, if they know it is by faith in Jesus' life and God's grace that they might be saved, that they are never able to earn salvation based on themselves, and give God the credit for their works, that's all I really care about. I think it would be irresponsible to tell someone who is in a good place spiritually that they are wrong about their exact views on works if that is what is working for them. Really not much more to say on this.

First off, to be honest I don't hear this debate get much discussion anymore as I don't think most Christians trouble themselves with it.

Secondly, I wouldn't say that to them. I would say: This is an essay that lines up closely with my views: [url=https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/faith-and-works/][/url]https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/faith-and-works/

I would then ask them what their views are and I would listen to them.

And the other 99% that did not wait to choose to have faith in Jesus in the final hour before their death? How have works mattered in all of their lives? Most of them are going to be alive long enough to have a conversation deeper than just, "salvation is by faith, not by works."

Christians can stop doing works. If you don't know this, you haven't spoken with enough people. I have said that works are an imperfect temperature reading of faith, not that Christians will always be perfect at being Christians.

It's not an argument so it isn't a straw man. It is just what the tone sounds like to me. You did not ask a question when you first posted the scenario.

[Preface - in regards to works, the Bible is generally speaking to the 99% of the population not going through ALS]

I have already addressed this scenario - the thief on the cross did what he could for as long as he could.

I would tell them to have faith in Jesus who knows what suffering is and to pray for God's saving grace. I would say let's do together what we can for as long as they can. I would talk to the patient and pray with them (their works). If they haven't been baptized, I would ask them if they would like to be (no, I'm not saying this is a requirement). Would they like to receive communion? If they can't speak, then I will pray and allow for silent pauses so that they can pray silently to themselves. If they lose cognitive ability, I already said no one is saying Christians in a coma aren't going to heaven for a lack of trying.

Have you ever been involved with hospital ministry of any kind? This is all pretty straightforward within that community.

---

For a run of the mill example, let's say someone is struggling with faith and is very near to deciding that's it's just all hogwash and everything about God is made up. But a friend of theirs convinces them to give it one last shot and go on a retreat. At that retreat they hear the words they need to hear and get the support they need. Their faith is somewhat redirected and they then rejoin a church and begin the process again of reinvigorating their faith and belief in Jesus.

Going on a retreat definitely counts as a "work". Did this work possibly have an effect on their salvation? If the person was telling you how important this event was in their walk towards faith in Jesus and belief that He died so that we may live, would you tell them they are wrong and it didn't matter?

---

"I wouldn't say that to them..." - exactly. Thank you, finally. You wouldn't say that because you know it communicates the wrong idea. Just like saying "musical ability matters in whether one goes to heaven" is wrong to say. You're trying really hard to justify taking your liberties with this phrase, but you seem to be acknowledging here why you shouldn't. This really should end this discussion. But to your other points....

The other 99% would likely understand the phrase "works matter in whether one goes to heaven" to mean that works are determinative in one's salvation. So it is wrong to say. I think you understand this, but you've decided to make this way more difficult than it had to be.

The thief on the cross would have been saved even if he did no "work" at all and just kept his belief in his heart. I'm assuming that you agree with this. Therefore his works did not matter in whether he went to heaven. Nothing more needs to be said.

"You did not ask a question when you first posted the scenario." - the question was from earlier, I just incorporated the scenario we're talking about and rephrased the question. Here's the original question - "What are you going to say to that person as they are dying, or to their loved ones who wonder if they are in heaven after their death - that "works matter in whether they go to heaven or not?" No, you wouldn't." You never answered it.

"Christians can stop doing works" - not as a lifetime commitment. I don't know why you think that all Christians momentarily stopping works makes some kind of point against why the phrase "works matter in whether one goes to heaven" shouldn't be said. You've already conceded you wouldn't say that.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"I wouldn't say that to them..." - exactly. Thank you, finally. You wouldn't say that because you know it communicates the wrong idea. Just like saying "musical ability matters in whether one goes to heaven" is wrong to say. You're trying really hard to justify taking your liberties with this phrase, but you seem to be acknowledging here why you shouldn't. This really should end this discussion.

What do you mean "finally"? I posted that exact link and said they were close to my views in my second post in this thread. When asked what your complete views are, you responded with, "my belief is that salvation is by faith, not works". Well...I wouldn't say that to them either. This isn't the AHA! moment you are making it out to be.

Where did I say, "musical ability matters in whether one goes to heaven"? What I said was, "IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven."

But to your other points....

The other 99% would likely understand the phrase "works matter in whether one goes to heaven" to mean that works are determinative in one's salvation. So it is wrong to say. I think you understand this, but you've decided to make this way more difficult than it had to be.

Again, what I said was, "IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven."

You don't seem to give people much credit for trying to learn nuance. In case you haven't picked it up by now, I often don't give short single sentence explanations on my views. IMO this topic is more nuanced than "salvation is by faith, not works" so I'm going to give a more complete response to someone. On the flip side, If IMO they are in a good place with their faith I'm really not going to worry too much about their precise views on works.

The thief on the cross would have been saved even if he did no "work" at all and just kept his belief in his heart. I'm assuming that you agree with this. Therefore his works did not matter in whether he went to heaven. Nothing more needs to be said.

This is back to that tone I was referring to before.

As a side note in regards to worrying about the message that short responses can impart (and how I worry about "not good" views on both sides), I worry that emphasizing the thief on the cross story to people can impart the idea that people can do whatever they want in life and then just say, "I believe in Jesus" at the end and get into heaven. IMO that is not necessarily Biblical. I already said I think believing in Jesus and wanting to get into heaven are not necessarily the same thing. I would also warn people that coming up with a plan to do whatever you want in life and then go for the loophole into heaven at the end could be considered deceptive. I don't know what God thinks about that.

That is why when I talk about this story I say that his faith saved him and that he did what he could for as long as he could.

"You did not ask a question when you first posted the scenario." - the question was from earlier, I just incorporated the scenario we're talking about and rephrased the question. Here's the original question - "What are you going to say to that person as they are dying, or to their loved ones who wonder if they are in heaven after their death - that "works matter in whether they go to heaven or not?" No, you wouldn't." You never answered it.

Well it's been answered now. Have you ever been involved with hospital ministry of any kind?

"Christians can stop doing works" - not as a lifetime commitment. I don't know why you think that all Christians momentarily stopping works makes some kind of point against why the phrase "works matter in whether one goes to heaven" shouldn't be said. You've already conceded you wouldn't say that.

Again, IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven.

---

For a run of the mill example, let's say someone is struggling with faith and is very near to deciding that's it's just all hogwash and everything about God is made up. But a friend of theirs convinces them to give it one last shot and go on a retreat. At that retreat they hear the words they need to hear and get the support they need. Their faith is somewhat redirected and they then rejoin a church and begin the process again of reinvigorating their faith and belief in Jesus.

Going on a retreat definitely counts as a "work". Did this work possibly have an effect on their salvation? If the person was telling you how important this event was in their walk towards faith in Jesus and belief that He died so that we may live, would you tell them they are wrong and it didn't matter?

90sBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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What do you mean "finally"? I posted that exact link and said they were close to my views in my second post in this thread. When asked what your complete views are, you responded with, "my belief is that salvation is by faith, not works". Well...I wouldn't say that to them either. This isn't the AHA! moment you are making it out to be.

Where did I say, "musical ability matters in whether one goes to heaven"? What I said was, "IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven."

Again, what I said was, "IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven."

You don't seem to give people much credit for trying to learn nuance. In case you haven't picked it up by now, I often don't give short single sentence explanations on my views. IMO this topic is more nuanced than "salvation is by faith, not works" so I'm going to give a more complete response to someone. On the flip side, If IMO they are in a good place with their faith I'm really not going to worry too much about their precise views on works.

This is back to that tone I was referring to before.

As a side note in regards to worrying about the message that short responses can impart (and how I worry about "not good" views on both sides), I worry that emphasizing the thief on the cross story to people can impart the idea that people can do whatever they want in life and then just say, "I believe in Jesus" at the end and get into heaven. IMO that is not necessarily Biblical. I already said I think believing in Jesus and wanting to get into heaven are not necessarily the same thing. I would also warn people that coming up with a plan to do whatever you want in life and then go for the loophole into heaven at the end is deceptive. I don't know what God thinks about that.

That is why when I talk about this story I say that his faith saved him and that he did what he could for as long as he could.

Well it's been answered now. Have you ever been involved with hospital ministry of any kind?

Again, IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven.

---

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If you believe what you say you do, that we are saved by faith not by works, then saying "salvation is by faith, not works" (what I said) conveys the correct message. However, saying "works matters in whether someone goes to heaven" (what YOU are saying) does not, and seems to contradict your belief. This is how most people will understand that phrase. You can go for nuance all you want, but clarity is much more important.

I didn't say that you said "musical ability matters whether one goes to heaven". I said that according to your reasoning, this statement is also valid. But I think you realize how this conveys the wrong message. So in the same way, so does saying "works matters whether one goes to heaven". Please comprehend better, I'm tired of having to repeat myself.

No, the story of the thief on the cross does not convey the idea that one can "just believe" and then do whatever they want. The thief repented, believed, and put his faith in his "salvation" in Jesus hands. That is most certainly the biblical path to salvation. "Believing" is not just believing in facts, it involves repenting and putting your trust and faith in Jesus too. It's a heart move, not just a brain move. The thief on the cross displayed all that.

Answer the question - suppose the thief had NOT done what he could, but rather just kept his faith in his heart, would he have still been saved by Jesus? I'm assuming based on what you've said so far, that you believe he would have been. We can conclude then, that in his case works didn't matter at all in whether he went to heaven. Do you acknowledge this to be true? Please answer.

No, I have not been involved in hospital ministry. You don't need to be in hospital ministry to know that someone who is dying or dies right after becoming a Christian shouldn't be told that "works matter". That isn't the time for nuance, it's the time for clarity. The focus should be on what Jesus did and your faith and trust in that, not in what you've done or are able to do. And that goes pretty much for every other Christian in the world (the other "99%"), hospital or not.

Works may have a role in people's faith, but it's their faith that saves, not the works. You're using transitive reasoning to then say that works had a role in them going to heaven. But based on this reasoning then, one can also say that eating pizza or playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven. You can try and "nuance" your way into showing how that can be true, but we both know that people interpret that phrase to mean that one must eat pizza or play tennis to be saved, so it shouldn't be said. And you know it shouldn't, you're just choosing to be contrarian over having clarity.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Got an answer yet to my question? Apparently you must not have much conviction over your claim about evolution if you're unwilling to answer such a simple question.

---

I'm no longer here every day/week/month.

Not the scientific definition but I like descent with modification via natural selection.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If you believe what you say you do, that we are saved by faith not by works, then saying "salvation is by faith, not works" (what I said) conveys the correct message. However, saying "works matters in whether someone goes to heaven" (what YOU are saying) does not, and seems to contradict your belief. This is how most people will understand that phrase. You can go for nuance all you want, but clarity is much more important.

I said what we do matters because it can show where our faith is at, not that it was the works that saved. I also said IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven.

I think the link I provided was pretty clear on what my views are. I have met people that would have just stared at you if all you said was, "salvation is by faith, not works" and asked, "Is that it?" If you would have responded with, "Yes", they would have ended the conversation right then and not in a good way. Not always a successful strategy for talking with some people.

I didn't say that you said "musical ability matters whether one goes to heaven". I said that according to your reasoning, this statement is also valid. But I think you realize how this conveys the wrong message. So in the same way, so does saying "works matters whether one goes to heaven". Please comprehend better, I'm tired of having to repeat myself.

Upped the snark level huh? No, that is not equivalent to IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven.

No, the story of the thief on the cross does not convey the idea that one can "just believe" and then do whatever they want.

I did not say it does. But I have personally spoken with people who have asked if it did and even a couple that argued that it did. That you don't think that way does not mean other people may not be tempted to look at it from that angle. Hence the way I now comment on it.

Answer the question - suppose the thief had NOT done what he could, but rather just kept his faith in his heart, would he have still been saved by Jesus? I'm assuming based on what you've said so far, that you believe he would have been. We can conclude then, that in his case works didn't matter at all in whether he went to heaven. Do you acknowledge this to be true? Please answer.

The thief was saved by his faith. I have said that 5 times over. In his case, the person that probably died within hours of speaking personally to Jesus, he did not really have much time to get involved with a lot of works.

No, I have not been involved in hospital ministry. You don't need to be in hospital ministry to know that someone who is dying or dies right after becoming a Christian shouldn't be told that "works matter". That isn't the time for nuance, it's the time for clarity.

I said specifically what I would say to the person in that situation.

The focus should be on what Jesus did and your faith and trust in that, not in what you've done or are able to do.

I have seen more than few people request last rites or final communion or to just share prayers. Those actions had meaning for those people.

And that goes pretty much for every other Christian in the world (the other "99%"), hospital or not.

Different people desire different levels of nuance and/or clarity. Your perspectives are not necessarily other people's perspectives.

Works may have a role in people's faith, but it's their faith that saves, not the works. You're using transitive reasoning to then say that works had a role in them going to heaven. But based on this reasoning then, one can also say that eating pizza or playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven. You can try and "nuance" your way into showing how that can be true, but we both know that people interpret that phrase to mean that one must eat pizza or play tennis to be saved, so it shouldn't be said. And you know it shouldn't, you're just choosing to be contrarian over having clarity.

I have had a few conversations with people about the role some works had played in their lives. Not one extended that reasoning to mean works were what determined if they got into heaven. Yes, I know some people might. Again - I worry about not good views in both directions.

Curious how many one on one conversations you have had with people regarding this subject. Substance abusers who have gone through 12 steps? People who are going through depression and use consistent behavior patterns to help cope? Regular Christians who have found purpose and faith in Jesus through works? People who say they now know what it means that Jesus died for their sins after focused missions outreaches?

I'm not choosing to be contrarian, I'm telling you about my personal experiences in talking with people where I was more concerned about if they were saved, not what their exact view on works was. If a work was a reason they felt stable or on the right path or it just worked for them personally, and they felt in their heart of hearts those works helped them to have faith in Jesus and belief in the possibility of God's salvation, I don't care and am happy for them.

---

For a run of the mill example, let's say someone is struggling with faith and is very near to deciding that's it's just all hogwash and everything about God is made up. But a friend of theirs convinces them to give it one last shot and go on a retreat. At that retreat they hear the words they need to hear and get the support they need. Their faith is somewhat redirected and they then rejoin a church and begin the process again of reinvigorating their faith and belief in Jesus.

Going on a retreat definitely counts as a "work" (as opposed to eating pizza or playing tennis). Did this work possibly have an effect on their salvation? If the person was telling you how important this event was in their walk towards faith in Jesus and belief that He died so that we may live, would you tell them they are wrong and it didn't matter?

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

If you believe what you say you do, that we are saved by faith not by works, then saying "salvation is by faith, not works" (what I said) conveys the correct message. However, saying "works matters in whether someone goes to heaven" (what YOU are saying) does not, and seems to contradict your belief. This is how most people will understand that phrase. You can go for nuance all you want, but clarity is much more important.

I said what we do matters because it can show where our faith is at, not that it was the works that saved. I also said IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven.

I think the link I provided was pretty clear on what my views are. I have met people that would have just stared at you if all you said was, "salvation is by faith, not works" and asked, "Is that it?" If you would have responded with, "Yes", they would have ended the conversation right then and not in a good way. Not always a successful strategy for talking with some people.

I didn't say that you said "musical ability matters whether one goes to heaven". I said that according to your reasoning, this statement is also valid. But I think you realize how this conveys the wrong message. So in the same way, so does saying "works matters whether one goes to heaven". Please comprehend better, I'm tired of having to repeat myself.

Upped the snark level huh? No, that is not equivalent to IMO based off my conversations with people over the years, works have played a role in whether some people may or may not go to Heaven.

No, the story of the thief on the cross does not convey the idea that one can "just believe" and then do whatever they want.

I did not say it does. But I have personally spoken with people who have asked if it did and even a couple that argued that it did. That you don't think that way does not mean other people may not be tempted to look at it from that angle. Hence the way I now comment on it.

Answer the question - suppose the thief had NOT done what he could, but rather just kept his faith in his heart, would he have still been saved by Jesus? I'm assuming based on what you've said so far, that you believe he would have been. We can conclude then, that in his case works didn't matter at all in whether he went to heaven. Do you acknowledge this to be true? Please answer.

The thief was saved by his faith. I have said that 5 times over. In his case, the person that probably died within hours of speaking personally to Jesus, he did not really have much time to get involved with a lot of works.

No, I have not been involved in hospital ministry. You don't need to be in hospital ministry to know that someone who is dying or dies right after becoming a Christian shouldn't be told that "works matter". That isn't the time for nuance, it's the time for clarity.

I said specifically what I would say to the person in that situation.

The focus should be on what Jesus did and your faith and trust in that, not in what you've done or are able to do.

I have seen more than few people request last rites or final communion or to just share prayers. Those actions had meaning for those people.

And that goes pretty much for every other Christian in the world (the other "99%"), hospital or not.

Different people desire different levels of nuance and/or clarity. Your perspectives are not necessarily other people's perspectives.

Works may have a role in people's faith, but it's their faith that saves, not the works. You're using transitive reasoning to then say that works had a role in them going to heaven. But based on this reasoning then, one can also say that eating pizza or playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven. You can try and "nuance" your way into showing how that can be true, but we both know that people interpret that phrase to mean that one must eat pizza or play tennis to be saved, so it shouldn't be said. And you know it shouldn't, you're just choosing to be contrarian over having clarity.

I have had a few conversations with people about the role some works had played in their lives. Not one extended that reasoning to mean works were what determined if they got into heaven. Yes, I know some people might. Again - I worry about not good views in both directions.

Curious how many one on one conversations you have had with people regarding this subject. Substance abusers who have gone through 12 steps? People who are going through depression and use consistent behavior patterns to help cope? Regular Christians who have found purpose and faith in Jesus through works? People who say they now know what it means that Jesus died for their sins after focused missions outreaches?

I'm not choosing to be contrarian, I'm telling you about my personal experiences in talking with people where I was more concerned about if they were saved, not what their exact view on works was. If a work was a reason they felt stable or on the right path or it just worked for them personally, and they felt in their heart of hearts those works helped them to have faith in Jesus and belief in the possibility of God's salvation, I don't care and am happy for them.

---

For a run of the mill example, let's say someone is struggling with faith and is very near to deciding that's it's just all hogwash and everything about God is made up. But a friend of theirs convinces them to give it one last shot and go on a retreat. At that retreat they hear the words they need to hear and get the support they need. Their faith is somewhat redirected and they then rejoin a church and begin the process again of reinvigorating their faith and belief in Jesus.

Going on a retreat definitely counts as a "work" (as opposed to eating pizza or playing tennis). Did this work possibly have an effect on their salvation? If the person was telling you how important this event was in their walk towards faith in Jesus and belief that He died so that we may live, would you tell them they are wrong and it didn't matter?

---

90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."

Thank you.

/debate

Quote:

---

Going on a retreat definitely counts as a "work" (as opposed to eating pizza or playing tennis). Did this work possibly have an effect on their salvation? If the person was telling you how important this event was in their walk towards faith in Jesus and belief that He died so that we may live, would you tell them they are wrong and it didn't matter?

---

If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.

I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.

Quote:

---

I have met people that would have just stared at you if all you said was, "salvation is by faith, not works" and asked, "Is that it?" If you would have responded with, "Yes", they would have ended the conversation right then and not in a good way. Not always a successful strategy for talking with some people.

---

Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?

You really are running out of things to argue with me about.

Fascinating really, how some are so focused on winning an internet debate that they lose all focus on the point of the thing.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fascinating really, how some are so focused on winning an internet debate that they lose all focus on the point of the thing.

---

Exactly right. The focus should be on seeking the real truth if the matter. This is a very serious topic that we must not get wrong. What the Bible says is what God will judge man by. We must obey the Bible above all else.

If winning a debate furthers the truth, why on earth would people be so against it?

It fascinates me how people who proclaim to be lovers of truth would rather spite someone than to be shown wrong and see the truth furthered.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fascinating really, how some are so focused on winning an internet debate that they lose all focus on the point of the thing.

---

Exactly right. The focus should be on seeking the real truth if the matter. This is a very serious topic that we must not get wrong. What the Bible says is what God will judge man by. We must obey the Bible above all else.

---

Especially where Jesus is specific. Strange how some here ignore the verses quoting Him directly, as if those teachings and lessons were anathema to their personal desires.

Oldbear83 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fascinating really, how some are so focused on winning an internet debate that they lose all focus on the point of the thing.

---

Exactly right. The focus should be on seeking the real truth if the matter. This is a very serious topic that we must not get wrong. What the Bible says is what God will judge man by. We must obey the Bible above all else.

---

Especially where Jesus is specific. Strange how some here ignore the verses quoting Him directly, as if those teachings and lessons were anathema to their personal desires.

---

What's strange is how someone won't answer questions meant to begin the discussion about those verses, runs away from the discussion, and then complains that the person is "ignoring" those verses.

You are so angry BTD, to the point that you pretend I "run away" from a thread where I have been consistent and active, you whine about your piety but ignore Christ's own words.

You are so determined to win the debate that you have no place for Christian charity.

OldBear, do you REALLY want to go there?

Do you really want to accuse me of ignoring Jesus' words because they are an "anathema to my personal desires" and them we go through the same thing again, over and over, where I make an attempt to begin the discussion about Jesus' words, and then you show the forum how you dodge the question, insult the asker, and run away yet again?

I am more than happy to discuss ANY verse with you. I've invited that discussion repeatedly. It's up to you to engage. I am inviting you right now. Which verse would you like to discuss? Please tell me the point you want to make, and the verse you think supports it.

We'll see who's doing the ignoring.

Oldbear83 said:

---

You are so angry BTD, to the point that you pretend I "run away" from a thread where I have been consistent and active, you whine about your piety but ignore Christ's own words.

You are so determined to win the debate that you have no place for Christian charity.

---

The only thing you've been consistent and active about is dodging questions.

Seriously, do you really think people don't see this?

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."

Thank you.

/debate

Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.

If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.

I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.

Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.

Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?

I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.

---

I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.

I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.

Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?

If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.

Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.

---

If you didn't want a "mean spirited debate" about the topic, then why were you doing it?

Seriously, why is it always the other guy who's got all the faults? Why is it always the other guy who's making others leave the forum? Do any of you have any self awareness?

If I can make a suggestion to you, it's that you need more clarity and less "nuance". Ministry is not just about compassion, understanding and "thoughtful posts" - it's also about telling clear truths. You'll find that telling the truth is often perceived as being "confrontational". If you don't think you could be perceived as "confrontational" in this thread yourself, then you may not be a fair judge, btw.

The danger with believing that internet forum comments should only be "thoughtful posts" (by your standard only) and that they should only "feed" people's faiths otherwise one should leave the forum, is that often the truth can be compromised or tip toed around for the sake of being "nonconfrontational" and everyone going home happy. Often, people are looking only to have their views validated in a discussion, so when they're challenged instead, you get the usual "mean spirited" and "confrontational" accusations. It isn't good if someone's faith is "fed" if their faith is distorted, it should be steered into the right direction. And that applies to all Christians, including me. That's why I'm not threatened by other people's views or comments enough to leave a discussion.

GRACE-SOMETHING ONLY GOD CAN DO

FAITH-THE CHOICE TO GENUINELY BELIEVE GOD & SUBMIT TO HIS WILL

We are saved by Grace alone:


Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV
[8] "For by grace you have been saved..."

We access God's Grace (Work) through our Faith (In Him. Salvation is NOT of us, it is a GIFT that cannot be worked for so that no one can brag (boast) that they were good enough to get to heaven because we are not:

"...through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [9] not of works, lest anyone should boast. "

AFTER SALVATION, we are God's workmanship, created to do (Not because of) good works, God foreordained that believers who are already saved should walk in good works.

10] "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."



We access God's Grace (Work) through our Faith:
We gain access to God's saving grace through our Faith:

Romans 5:2 NKJV

[2] "through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

The good works do not save, but are rather a product of genuine Salvation. They don't keep you saved and have no part in Salvation. We do them Because GOD saved US.

Titus 3:5 NKJV
[5] "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us..."

God is the one who saved us through the washing through the SPIRIT (not water Baptism)

...through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

We are Baptized into Christ's body through the Holy Spirit, not water Baptism:

I Corinthians 12:13 NKJV

[13] "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one bodywhether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freeand have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

GRACE-SOMETHING ONLY GOD CAN DO

FAITH-THE CHOICE TO GENUINELY BELIEVE GOD & SUBMIT TO HIS WILL

We are saved by Grace alone:


Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV
[8] "For by grace you have been saved..."

We access God's Grace (Work) through our Faith (In Him. Salvation is NOT of us, it is a GIFT that cannot be worked for so that no one can brag (boast) that they were good enough to get to heaven because we are not:

"...through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [9] not of works, lest anyone should boast. "

AFTER SALVATION, we are God's workmanship, created to do (Not because of) good works, God foreordained that believers who are already saved should walk in good works.

10] "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."



We access God's Grace (Work) through our Faith:
We gain access to God's saving grace through our Faith:

Romans 5:2 NKJV

[2] "through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

The good works do not save, but are rather a product of genuine Salvation. They don't keep you saved and have no part in Salvation. We do them Because GOD saved US.

Titus 3:5 NKJV
[5] "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us..."

God is the one who saved us through the washing through the SPIRIT (not water Baptism)

...through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

We are Baptized into Christ's body through the Holy Spirit, not water Baptism:

I Corinthians 12:13 NKJV

[13] "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one bodywhether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freeand have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

---

well put

90sBear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

90's Bear - "No, I wouldn't say that."

Thank you.

/debate

Exactly what debate do you think you are winning here? I came into this thread to share my viewpoints based on my experiences. You haven't changed them. You haven't changed anyone's. If someone asks me my position on faith and works, I would give them the exact same scripture-based link I gave a long time ago and then I'm going to ask them what they think, just like before.

If going to a retreat is a work, so is eating pizza and playing tennis.

I would tell that person that event (going to a retreat, eating pizza, playing tennis) mattered towards them coming to faith. But I would not tell people that "going to a retreat/eating pizza/playing tennis matters in whether one goes to heaven or not". The former is validating the personal significance an event had in a person's life. The latter is making a general statement about salvation that people will interpret wrongly.

Yes, make sure and tell the substance abuse person who was suicidal and went through an ordered faith-based recovery process that turned their life around that there is nothing different between that and eating pizza. Because after all, they are both works.

Did you really think me saying "salvation is by faith, not works" was a complete answer and reflects what I would tell people if they ask me about salvation, and not just a quick summary to succinctly convey my position in this current debate we were having about faith vs. works?

I asked you for your complete view on faith and works in hopes it would lead to an open conversation. That was your response. Blame yourself.

---

I don't think you get that I'm not here to "debate" this topic. I was here to share my personal perspective, experiences and conversations with people who have discussed this with me in the past and how various Christian works (beyond eating pizza and playing tennis) have made a difference in people's lives and helped put or kept them on a path towards faith in Jesus and belief and hope in God's grace.

I honestly don't think you have had much real world experience with ministry, outreaches, missions, or even just genuinely talking to people from a variety of faith backgrounds. If I'm right I would encourage you to do so. Not because I think it will change your view on this topic, but because maybe you would ease up on being so confrontational about it.

Look at this thread...how many people continue to contribute sincere thoughtful posts vs how many have left due it becoming a mean-spirited debate competition? Whose faith is fed by that? Whose purpose does that serve?

If you have had experience in those things then I sincerely apologize and hope you continue to serve faithfully.

Either way I'm departing from this thread. Real truth for me is found in a shared journey towards God, not a an argument in the car over what song should be played on the radio.

---

Well said

It isn't good if someone's faith is "fed" if their faith is distorted, it should be steered into the right direction"

It appears that you are the sole arbiter of "distorted faith" and you seem to know the "right direction"

From what I gather your "interpretation' of scripture is the only right one.

What is distorted faith?
What is right direction?

Sorry to see you go, 90sBear. Your posts were well-spoken and added to the discussion.

I'm not ignoring Jesus words, BTD. After all, in this thread I have quoted Him more than anyone else here.

I am ignoring your tone and attacks as much as possible, for reasons most reasonable people would not need explained.

Oldbear83 said:

---

I'm not ignoring Jesus words, BTD. After all, in this thread I have quoted Him more than anyone else here.

I am ignoring your tone and attacks as much as possible, for reasons most reasonable people would not need explained.

---

It doesn't matter how much you quote Jesus' words. You may be understanding them wrong.

I didn't say you were ignoring Jesus' words. I said you're the one doing the ignoring, by ignoring my invitation to discuss those words.

No, there was no "tone" or "attacks" in me simply asking you questions about the verses you posted. I think you are just trying to find a way out of answering them by marginalizing the asker of the question, i.e. ad hominem. I think most reasonable people would not need an explanation for why that is.

BTD, if you actually want to discuss the verses I posted, please do so. Ideally, you can post other quotes from Christ which show your understanding is correct.

As you have not done that up to now, I stand by my earlier posts.

Thank you.