BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

A discussion about the meaning of repentance and salvation to ensure that these concepts are fully understood.

I have a sense that the current framing of Christianity in the US goes something like this: (1) I feel bad for the bad things I do, and I don't want to go to hell, so I'll pray the sinners prayer and go to church to avoid it or (2) Jesus ate with sinners and loves me just as I am, and I go to church for a positive emotional fix.

I suspect that the former described much of evangelical / fundamental church gospel presentations in the second half of the 20th century with the 1990s being a transition to the latter which dominates today.

Both fail to grasp the whole truth.

Genesis tells us that God created us in his *image* and *likeness* to be in communion with Him. In the fall, that image was marred, that likeness was lost, and that communion was broken.

Fundamentally, salvation is more than saying a prayer to change ones legal status so that you can avoid hell. It is the process of reversing the effects of the fall and restoring communion with God. Yes, this process saves you from sin and death, but only because it reverses the effects of the fall.

Remorse and repentance are two different things. The former can lead to the latter, but real Christian repentance - a change in direction - is much more similar to AA's twelve step program than most gospel presentations let on...and it is this change in direction that enables God to begin undoing the effects of the fall.

If we merely feel remorse for what we have done and pray a sinners prayer (for the Evangelicals) or go to confession (for the Roman Catholics) without repentance as defined above we are still following a way that seems right to a man but leads to death.

Just so we are clear about what these terms actually mean.

---

That is a mischaracterization of how Christianity is framed in the U.S. The belief is not that repeating certain words in a prayer saves, it's the belief in your heart that Jesus is Lord and that he died for your sins and rose from the dead - just as it is presented to us by the apostle Paul.

If salvation is a "process" of reversal of the effects from the fall, then at what point is that reversal completed enough to acquire salvation? What happens if death comes before completion? How was the thief on the cross saved, if all he did was believe in his heart and confessed it to Jesus?

---

Agreed. I never said that merely reciting an empty prayer would save. Salvation is by God's Grace Through us placing our Faith in Christ and believing in our heart that He died and rose again, shedding His bood as a Sacrifice for our sins.

The prayer, only IF done in Faith, sums these things up and confirms our belief to God. The prayer is not required for Salvation, but Faith in the things listed IS required for Salvation.

Christ is the payment for our sins, not good deeds or lack of sin, but if we are truly saved, we should desire to please God and do good works for Him, not so that we can be saved but because we are already saved.

I'm not disagreeing with what Paul states. But my point is that the absolution of guilt for sin is an incomplete view of what salvation is (the restoration of communion with God), that is the image and likeness must be restored. When you read what Paul writes in Romans 7, does it sound like this is completed?

Realitybites said:

---

I'm not disagreeing with what Paul states. But my point is that the absolution of guilt for sin is an incomplete view of what salvation is (the restoration of communion with God), that is the image and likeness must be restored. When you read what Paul writes in Romans 7, does it sound like this is completed?

---

The question really isn't what the "completed" view of salvation is, but rather, by what means is it attained - is it by our work, or by God's?

I ask again - did the thief on the cross complete the process of "restoring the image and likeness"? How was he "saved" when all he did was profess his faith in Jesus?

Realitybites said:

---

I'm not disagreeing with what Paul states. But my point is that the absolution of guilt for sin is an incomplete view of what salvation is (the restoration of communion with God), that is the image and likeness must be restored. When you read what Paul writes in Romans 7, does it sound like this is completed?

---

There is a difference between saving faith and Spiritual growth after salvation. You are going to have to show me what exactly you're talking about " the scriptures to me that prove your point. And then make your point. There is nothing more added to Salvation other than the finished work of Christ on the cross. That paid the penalty of our sins and is the source of our salvation. We have no part in that other than to place our faith in that because we are inadequate in ourselves.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

I'm not disagreeing with what Paul states. But my point is that the absolution of guilt for sin is an incomplete view of what salvation is (the restoration of communion with God), that is the image and likeness must be restored. When you read what Paul writes in Romans 7, does it sound like this is completed?

---

The question really isn't what the "completed" view of salvation is, but rather, by what means is it attained - is it by our work, or by God's?

I ask again - did the thief on the cross complete the process of "restoring the image and likeness"? How was he "saved" when all he did was profess his faith in Jesus?

---

So here we see that we are saved by grace which is God's work not ours. We access His grace through our faith. It says it is a gift that is something that we do not work for. It says that we are saved onto good works, not because of good works but so that we will do them after we are saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [9] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [10] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I would hope that this first post would explain the Gospel in detail.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I ask again - did the thief on the cross complete the process of "restoring the image and likeness"? How was he "saved" when all he did was profess his faith in Jesus?

---

The importance of the story of the crucifixion of Dismas for most of our lives is not found in the proximity of his confession to his death. It is found in his confession: "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." It is effectively the same profession of faith made by the Publican. By the way, it was his statement "remember me when you come into your kingdom" that is the basis of the Christian funeral hymn "Memory Eternal" sung by the church of the first millennium.

Realitybites said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I ask again - did the thief on the cross complete the process of "restoring the image and likeness"? How was he "saved" when all he did was profess his faith in Jesus?

---

The importance of the story of the crucifixion of Dismas for most of our lives is not found in the proximity of his confession to his death. It is found in his confession: "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." It is effectively the same profession of faith made by the Publican. By the way, it was his statement "remember me when you come into your kingdom" that is the basis of the Christian funeral hymn "Memory Eternal" sung by the church of the first millennium.

---

"The importance of the story of the crucifixion of Dismas for most of our lives is not found in the proximity of his confession to his death" -

for the question of whether salvation requires the completion of a "process" of "restoring the image and likeness" before the fall, yes it is.

That's why I asked you the question. I'm still not getting an answer, though. The difficulty you are having in answering the question is kinda making my point.

Jumping in here, I believe one reason there are so many books in the Bible, and so many specific individuals mentioned in those books, is because there are many stories with a wide range of outcomes, and we should not assume that one person's experience means we can count on - or should fear - the same on our account.

I keep coming back to the verse in both the Old and New Testaments:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15

These verses confirm that God is not limited to human comprehension, not is He bound by human conditions. In the Exodus verse, earlier in that chapter God explains to Moses that a full discovery of God would be more than Moses could bear, and Moses was the best of his people at that time. God grants Moses the boon of seeing some of His majesty, but that boon comes completely from God's will and choice - nothing Moses did was worthy of it.

In the Romans quote, Paul reminds the Church that God's choice is dependent on what God desires, not any human rule or condition, same as in Exodus.

The reason I bring that up, is our friend the thief on the cross. In his case, Christ promised he would be in Paradise that day, but this was God's choice and grace, not the result of some human mechanism. While the thief certainly did well to rebuke the other thief and affirm Christ's innocence while confessing his own guilt, and further was right to show faith in Christ by saying plainly that Christ would come into His kingdom, none of that was meritorious, nor can anything we say or do be worthy of merit.

Consider that both Jacob and Esau were in need of redemption, yet we don't hear much about Esau, although it's reassuring to see that Esau was forgiving of Jacob when they met again after many years. It appears both brothers were reconciled with God, though in different ways and for different purposes.

Consider the lives of Moses, Aaron, and Joshua, all important to the plan of God, but for very different roles. And consider Job, Jonah, Jeremiah or John the Baptist. They all served the Lord but walked different paths.

What is required or planned for one may be different from what is required or planned for someone else.

What matters is that we each focus on the Lord, and seek His will in all things.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jumping in here, I believe one reason there are so many books in the Bible, and so many specific individuals mentioned in those books, is because there are many stories with a wide range of outcomes, and we should not assume that one person's experience means we can count on - or should fear - the same on our account.

I keep coming back to the verse in both the Old and New Testaments:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15

These verses confirm that God is not limited to human comprehension, not is He bound by human conditions. In the Exodus verse, earlier in that chapter God explains to Moses that a full discovery of God would be more than Moses could bear, and Moses was the best of his people at that time. God grants Moses the boon of seeing some of His majesty, but that boon comes completely from God's will and choice - nothing Moses did was worthy of it.

In the Romans quote, Paul reminds the Church that God's choice is dependent on what God desires, not any human rule or condition, same as in Exodus.

The reason I bring that up, is our friend the thief on the cross. In his case, Christ promised he would be in Paradise that day, but this was God's choice and grace, not the result of some human mechanism. While the thief certainly did well to rebuke the other thief and affirm Christ's innocence while confessing his own guilt, and further was right to show faith in Christ by saying plainly that Christ would come into His kingdom, none of that was meritorious, nor can anything we say or do be worthy of merit.

Consider that both Jacob and Esau were in need of redemption, yet we don't hear much about Esau, although it's reassuring to see that Esau was forgiving of Jacob when they met again after many years. It appears both brothers were reconciled with God, though in different ways and for different purposes.

Consider the lives of Moses, Aaron, and Joshua, all important to the plan of God, but for very different roles. And consider Job, Jonah, Jeremiah or John the Baptist. They all served the Lord but walked different paths.

What is required or planned for one may be different from what is required or planned for someone else.

What matters is that we each focus on the Lord, and seek His will in all things.

---

God isn't bound by human conditions, but He IS bound by His promises. And he promised that whosoever believes in him will have eternal life. This promise is repeatedly made to us through the testimony of His apostles as well. And the thief on the cross is the clearest illustration and confirmation of this as it can get.

It's the same promise for ALL people. Your statement, "What is required for one may be different from someone else" regarding salvation is as about as un-biblical of a belief as there is and a distortion of the true Gospel.

When you say belief, what is the full meaning of that term? Is it simply thinking something is the case, or is there more to it than that?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jumping in here, I believe one reason there are so many books in the Bible, and so many specific individuals mentioned in those books, is because there are many stories with a wide range of outcomes, and we should not assume that one person's experience means we can count on - or should fear - the same on our account.

I keep coming back to the verse in both the Old and New Testaments:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15

These verses confirm that God is not limited to human comprehension, not is He bound by human conditions. In the Exodus verse, earlier in that chapter God explains to Moses that a full discovery of God would be more than Moses could bear, and Moses was the best of his people at that time. God grants Moses the boon of seeing some of His majesty, but that boon comes completely from God's will and choice - nothing Moses did was worthy of it.

In the Romans quote, Paul reminds the Church that God's choice is dependent on what God desires, not any human rule or condition, same as in Exodus.

The reason I bring that up, is our friend the thief on the cross. In his case, Christ promised he would be in Paradise that day, but this was God's choice and grace, not the result of some human mechanism. While the thief certainly did well to rebuke the other thief and affirm Christ's innocence while confessing his own guilt, and further was right to show faith in Christ by saying plainly that Christ would come into His kingdom, none of that was meritorious, nor can anything we say or do be worthy of merit.

Consider that both Jacob and Esau were in need of redemption, yet we don't hear much about Esau, although it's reassuring to see that Esau was forgiving of Jacob when they met again after many years. It appears both brothers were reconciled with God, though in different ways and for different purposes.

Consider the lives of Moses, Aaron, and Joshua, all important to the plan of God, but for very different roles. And consider Job, Jonah, Jeremiah or John the Baptist. They all served the Lord but walked different paths.

What is required or planned for one may be different from what is required or planned for someone else.

What matters is that we each focus on the Lord, and seek His will in all things.

---

God isn't bound by human conditions, but He IS bound by His promises. And he promised that whosoever believes in him will have eternal life. This promise is repeatedly made to us through the testimony of His apostles as well. And the thief on the cross is the clearest illustration and confirmation of this as it can get.

It's the same promise for ALL people. Your statement, "What is required for one may be different from someone else" regarding salvation is as about as un-biblical of a belief as there is and a distortion of the true Gospel.

---

BTD, you are mistaken in what I said. Yes, belief and faith and trust are what pleases God.

But when I said different things may be required from different people, I was not talking about Salvation but our role as servants. I took the trouble to cite examples from Scripture, you may notice.

It's a plain fact that what God asked from Job was different from what He asked from Joseph (from Genesis) or Jeremiah, though each man had to have trust in God's plan and purpose. I mention these three in specific, because what they did have in common was that they had to go through difficult missions without knowing the purpose, something I would suggest we all can recognize from times in our own lives. Fortunately though, what is required of us is very unlikely to require losing everything we had including our family, decades in prison despite innocence, or having to stand up to multiple kings with word of God's displeasure, risking life multiple times. Seems odd we struggle today with facing up to our far more limited pains.

Tomorrow is Sunday find a good church and attend!

Realitybites said:

---

When you say belief, what is the full meaning of that term? Is it simply thinking something is the case, or is there more to it than that?

---

Your question can be made even more precise and relevant - rather, what did Jesus mean by "belief" as it pertains to salvation?

If we agree on two things, that 1) Jesus said that "believing in him" leads to eternal life, and 2) Jesus saved (gave eternal life) to the thief on the cross - then evidently whatever the thief did, that's what Jesus means by "believing in him".

Still waiting for an answer to my question - if salvation is only through a "completed process" of "restoring the image and likeness" of God, then how and in what way did this happen to the thief on the cross?

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jumping in here, I believe one reason there are so many books in the Bible, and so many specific individuals mentioned in those books, is because there are many stories with a wide range of outcomes, and we should not assume that one person's experience means we can count on - or should fear - the same on our account.

I keep coming back to the verse in both the Old and New Testaments:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15

These verses confirm that God is not limited to human comprehension, not is He bound by human conditions. In the Exodus verse, earlier in that chapter God explains to Moses that a full discovery of God would be more than Moses could bear, and Moses was the best of his people at that time. God grants Moses the boon of seeing some of His majesty, but that boon comes completely from God's will and choice - nothing Moses did was worthy of it.

In the Romans quote, Paul reminds the Church that God's choice is dependent on what God desires, not any human rule or condition, same as in Exodus.

The reason I bring that up, is our friend the thief on the cross. In his case, Christ promised he would be in Paradise that day, but this was God's choice and grace, not the result of some human mechanism. While the thief certainly did well to rebuke the other thief and affirm Christ's innocence while confessing his own guilt, and further was right to show faith in Christ by saying plainly that Christ would come into His kingdom, none of that was meritorious, nor can anything we say or do be worthy of merit.

Consider that both Jacob and Esau were in need of redemption, yet we don't hear much about Esau, although it's reassuring to see that Esau was forgiving of Jacob when they met again after many years. It appears both brothers were reconciled with God, though in different ways and for different purposes.

Consider the lives of Moses, Aaron, and Joshua, all important to the plan of God, but for very different roles. And consider Job, Jonah, Jeremiah or John the Baptist. They all served the Lord but walked different paths.

What is required or planned for one may be different from what is required or planned for someone else.

What matters is that we each focus on the Lord, and seek His will in all things.

---

God isn't bound by human conditions, but He IS bound by His promises. And he promised that whosoever believes in him will have eternal life. This promise is repeatedly made to us through the testimony of His apostles as well. And the thief on the cross is the clearest illustration and confirmation of this as it can get.

It's the same promise for ALL people. Your statement, "What is required for one may be different from someone else" regarding salvation is as about as un-biblical of a belief as there is and a distortion of the true Gospel.

---

BTD, you are mistaken in what I said. Yes, belief and faith and trust are what pleases God.

But when I said different things may be required from different people, I was not talking about Salvation but our role as servants. I took the trouble to cite examples from Scripture, you may notice.

It's a plain fact that what God asked from Job was different from what He asked from Joseph (from Genesis) or Jeremiah, though each man had to have trust in God's plan and purpose. I mention these three in specific, because what they did have in common was that they had to go through difficult missions without knowing the purpose, something I would suggest we all can recognize from times in our own lives. Fortunately though, what is required of us is very unlikely to require losing everything we had including our family, decades in prison despite innocence, or having to stand up to multiple kings with word of God's displeasure, risking life multiple times. Seems odd we struggle today with facing up to our far more limited pains.

---

When the discussion is about using the thief on the cross as an example of the requirement for salvation, and you argue that we shouldn't assume the thief on the cross applies to us and that what was "required" of the thief may be different that what's required of us, then the apparent implication to any reader is that you mean all that with regard to salvation, since that's the point of the discussion you're responding to.

If you aren't talking about salvation, but rather you want to make an entirely separate point, then it is incumbent upon you to make that clear, probably at the beginning of your comment. Otherwise, it's confusing and irresponsible commenting.

This last post from you, BTD is not only why I seldom bother trying to talk with you here, but also why other Christians have left this thread.

There is not a shred of Christian sentiment in it, only the bitter and strident demand that you be allowed to bully anyone with a thought or idea other than your own. I have taken pains to use Scripture and establish my point, while you do little more here than rant and spew venom.

Make an effort to consider opinions other than your own as valid. It will improve your intellectual scope and create opportunities for insight.

Oldbear83 said:

---

This last post from you, BTD is not only why I seldom bother trying to talk with you here, but also why other Christians have left this thread.

There is not a shred of Christian sentiment in it, only the bitter and strident demand that you be allowed to bully anyone with a thought or idea other than your own. I have taken pains to use Scripture and establish my point, while you do little more here than rant and spew venom.

Make an effort to consider opinions other than your own as valid. It will improve your intellectual scope and create opportunities for insight.

---

I would take your invective more seriously, if it not were for the fact that you get into it with virtually EVERY commenter you have discussions with. No, really, I mean EVERY one. And don't think people haven't noticed. Maybe YOU'RE the reason people left? Some self reflection might be warranted here. So instead of worrying about my "Christian sentiment" maybe you should worrying about your own.

As to my comment that you're referencing, I stand by it. What I said was correct. Based on your explanation, your comment was clumsy and conveyed a very wrong idea, which could potentially be damaging to others who read it, and so it deserved criticism. Seriously, how could you not know that in a discussion about the "requirement of salvation" and using the example of the thief on the cross, that your comment in response saying that the "example of the thief may not apply to us", and that the "requirement might be different from person to person" would be perceived as referring to salvation? You do see the problem there, don't you? Do better, that's all I'm saying.

BTD being proud again. Well, that tells the tale.

Have a nice day, BTD.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jumping in here, I believe one reason there are so many books in the Bible, and so many specific individuals mentioned in those books, is because there are many stories with a wide range of outcomes, and we should not assume that one person's experience means we can count on - or should fear - the same on our account.

I keep coming back to the verse in both the Old and New Testaments:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15

These verses confirm that God is not limited to human comprehension, not is He bound by human conditions. In the Exodus verse, earlier in that chapter God explains to Moses that a full discovery of God would be more than Moses could bear, and Moses was the best of his people at that time. God grants Moses the boon of seeing some of His majesty, but that boon comes completely from God's will and choice - nothing Moses did was worthy of it.

In the Romans quote, Paul reminds the Church that God's choice is dependent on what God desires, not any human rule or condition, same as in Exodus.

The reason I bring that up, is our friend the thief on the cross. In his case, Christ promised he would be in Paradise that day, but this was God's choice and grace, not the result of some human mechanism. While the thief certainly did well to rebuke the other thief and affirm Christ's innocence while confessing his own guilt, and further was right to show faith in Christ by saying plainly that Christ would come into His kingdom, none of that was meritorious, nor can anything we say or do be worthy of merit.

Consider that both Jacob and Esau were in need of redemption, yet we don't hear much about Esau, although it's reassuring to see that Esau was forgiving of Jacob when they met again after many years. It appears both brothers were reconciled with God, though in different ways and for different purposes.

Consider the lives of Moses, Aaron, and Joshua, all important to the plan of God, but for very different roles. And consider Job, Jonah, Jeremiah or John the Baptist. They all served the Lord but walked different paths.

What is required or planned for one may be different from what is required or planned for someone else.

What matters is that we each focus on the Lord, and seek His will in all things.

---

God isn't bound by human conditions, but He IS bound by His promises. And he promised that whosoever believes in him will have eternal life. This promise is repeatedly made to us through the testimony of His apostles as well. And the thief on the cross is the clearest illustration and confirmation of this as it can get.

It's the same promise for ALL people. Your statement, "What is required for one may be different from someone else" regarding salvation is as about as un-biblical of a belief as there is and a distortion of the true Gospel.

---

BTD, you are mistaken in what I said. Yes, belief and faith and trust are what pleases God.

But when I said different things may be required from different people, I was not talking about Salvation but our role as servants. I took the trouble to cite examples from Scripture, you may notice.

It's a plain fact that what God asked from Job was different from what He asked from Joseph (from Genesis) or Jeremiah, though each man had to have trust in God's plan and purpose. I mention these three in specific, because what they did have in common was that they had to go through difficult missions without knowing the purpose, something I would suggest we all can recognize from times in our own lives. Fortunately though, what is required of us is very unlikely to require losing everything we had including our family, decades in prison despite innocence, or having to stand up to multiple kings with word of God's displeasure, risking life multiple times. Seems odd we struggle today with facing up to our far more limited pains.

---

Faith is key. True Faith surrenders your will to God's will. Those men demonstrated faith through obedience, but it was Faith that saved them. Faith is believing God, submitting to His will. Faith is trust in God.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Jumping in here, I believe one reason there are so many books in the Bible, and so many specific individuals mentioned in those books, is because there are many stories with a wide range of outcomes, and we should not assume that one person's experience means we can count on - or should fear - the same on our account.

I keep coming back to the verse in both the Old and New Testaments:

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15

These verses confirm that God is not limited to human comprehension, not is He bound by human conditions. In the Exodus verse, earlier in that chapter God explains to Moses that a full discovery of God would be more than Moses could bear, and Moses was the best of his people at that time. God grants Moses the boon of seeing some of His majesty, but that boon comes completely from God's will and choice - nothing Moses did was worthy of it.

In the Romans quote, Paul reminds the Church that God's choice is dependent on what God desires, not any human rule or condition, same as in Exodus.

The reason I bring that up, is our friend the thief on the cross. In his case, Christ promised he would be in Paradise that day, but this was God's choice and grace, not the result of some human mechanism. While the thief certainly did well to rebuke the other thief and affirm Christ's innocence while confessing his own guilt, and further was right to show faith in Christ by saying plainly that Christ would come into His kingdom, none of that was meritorious, nor can anything we say or do be worthy of merit.

Consider that both Jacob and Esau were in need of redemption, yet we don't hear much about Esau, although it's reassuring to see that Esau was forgiving of Jacob when they met again after many years. It appears both brothers were reconciled with God, though in different ways and for different purposes.

Consider the lives of Moses, Aaron, and Joshua, all important to the plan of God, but for very different roles. And consider Job, Jonah, Jeremiah or John the Baptist. They all served the Lord but walked different paths.

What is required or planned for one may be different from what is required or planned for someone else.

What matters is that we each focus on the Lord, and seek His will in all things.

---

God isn't bound by human conditions, but He IS bound by His promises. And he promised that whosoever believes in him will have eternal life. This promise is repeatedly made to us through the testimony of His apostles as well. And the thief on the cross is the clearest illustration and confirmation of this as it can get.

It's the same promise for ALL people. Your statement, "What is required for one may be different from someone else" regarding salvation is as about as un-biblical of a belief as there is and a distortion of the true Gospel.

---

BTD, you are mistaken in what I said. Yes, belief and faith and trust are what pleases God.

But when I said different things may be required from different people, I was not talking about Salvation but our role as servants. I took the trouble to cite examples from Scripture, you may notice.

It's a plain fact that what God asked from Job was different from what He asked from Joseph (from Genesis) or Jeremiah, though each man had to have trust in God's plan and purpose. I mention these three in specific, because what they did have in common was that they had to go through difficult missions without knowing the purpose, something I would suggest we all can recognize from times in our own lives. Fortunately though, what is required of us is very unlikely to require losing everything we had including our family, decades in prison despite innocence, or having to stand up to multiple kings with word of God's displeasure, risking life multiple times. Seems odd we struggle today with facing up to our far more limited pains.

---

Faith is key. True Faith surrenders your will to God's will. Those men demonstrated faith through obedience, but it was Faith that saved them. Faith is believing God, submitting to His will. Faith is trust in God.

---

Frodo, if you take the time to look, the question about what saves a person was resolved long ago.

The question now, is what do you do to serve God in your life? The Bible is full of examples we can and should regard and respect.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD being proud again. Well, that tells the tale.

Have a nice day, BTD.

---

OldBear having no awareness again, and getting into it with another again.

That's been the tale this whole thread as well as in many others.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD being proud again. Well, that tells the tale.

Have a nice day, BTD.

---

OldBear having no awareness again, and getting into it with another again.

That's been the tale this whole thread as well as in many others.

---

And yet again, BTD the voice of Caiaphas ...

Well of course it does, but the service is for rewards in heaven, not Salvation.

Philippians 3:14-15 NKJV
[14] I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. [15] Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

Romans 12:1-2 NKJV
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. [2] And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

You continually use the thief on the cross despite having it explained to you that the relevant portion of his confession to most of us was the content, not the timing. Yes, foxhole and deathbed conversions happen. The moral of those stories is not that they are possible, but that people should come to Christ today, pick up their crosses, and follow him.

Do the demons believe in God? They know - not just think He exists, and yet are not saved. So what then is belief, if it is more than simply thinking something to be true?

Randy Gradishar's induction speech. Watch it starting at the 6:40 mark.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BTD being proud again. Well, that tells the tale.

Have a nice day, BTD.

---

OldBear having no awareness again, and getting into it with another again.

That's been the tale this whole thread as well as in many others.

---

And yet again, BTD the voice of Caiaphas ...

---

Do you have any other argument method than ad hominem? You've worn this out to death. All it does is show how weak your position is. Do better.

Realitybites said:

---

You continually use the thief on the cross despite having it explained to you that the relevant portion of Hus confession to most of us was the content, not the timing. Yes, foxhole and deathbed conversions happen. The moral of those stories is not that they are possible, but that people should come to Christ today, pick up their crosses, and follow him.

Do the demons believe in God? They know - not just think He exists, and yet are not saved. So what then is belief, if it is more than simply thinking something to be true?

---

The content is exactly what I'm pointing at, not the timing. The timing has nothing to do with it. Either you're trying to misdirect the argument, or you're failing to understand. The content is the answer to your question as to what Jesus means by "belief" in him for salvation. So what is that content? We need to begin there.

The question isn't whether foxhole or deathbed conversions happen, or that they're possible - the question is do they contain the requirement for salvation or not. Again, not a timing issue, but rather content.

The demons know God and Jesus, but Jesus did not come to save them, he came to save people. Also, the thief didn't merely believe in certain facts like God exists, or that Jesus is true - he also "received" Jesus to himself, i.e. in his heart he put all his reliance onto Jesus and not on himself, and rested fully in Jesus' promises. He had faith in Jesus. To "believe in Jesus" means to have faith in him in this way. Faith is what saves. The demons can never have this faith.

Since you acknowledge that the "content" of the thief's confession is what saved him, and that you believe salvation is a completed process of "restoring the image and likeness of God", then my question, which has yet to be answered, remains - how did the content of the thief's confession complete that process? How did the content restore the image and likeness of God?

To those who haven't yet please read this first post

It began that process. His death, shortly after it was his finish line. The thief on the cross ran a 10 foot dash. Most of us have a marathon to run after the starting gun. The flaw in your soteriology is that you are using the proximity of the thief's confession and death as somehow normative for how salvation plays itself out in the lives of most Christians.

I'm sure many have heard the statement "today is the day of salvation." It is true, just not in the way that it is used. It does not mean walk the aisle, pray the Christian shahada, and collect your boarding pass to heaven.

It means that today is another opportunity to pick up your cross and follow Him and have the Holy Spirit continue the process of restoring His image and likeness in you. As is tomorrow. As is every day till you pass from this life into the next. But the opposite is true as well. Today is a day in which you can drop your cross. You can refuse to work for Him. You can walk away from the faith. You can sell Him out for 30 pieces of silver as many Evangelical leaders have done. (For more information on that, read Megan Basham's excellent book "Shepherds for Sale". I can't recommend this book enough for an Evangelical or Southern Baptist in 2024. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that you could speed read the entire Bible through between now and Sunday, go to church, and come home more ignorant about what was going on around you than if you read this book. Get it. Read it.)

When that day comes, the only thing you can say is "I'm with Him", and you hope to hear the words "Well done good and faithful servant.". Just remember that there is something much more ominous that you can hear on that day as well: "Depart from me. I never knew you."

Realitybites said:

---

It began that process. His death, shortly after it was his finish line. The thief on the cross ran a 10 foot dash. Most of us have a marathon to run after the starting gun. The flaw in your soteriology is that you are using the proximity of the thief's confession and death as somehow normative for how salvation plays itself out in the lives of most Christians.

I'm sure many have heard the statement "today is the day of salvation." It is true, just not in the way that it is used. It does not mean walk the aisle, pray the Christian shahada, and collect your boarding pass to heaven.

It means that today is another opportunity to pick up your cross and follow Him and have the Holy Spirit continue the process of restoring His image and likeness in you. As is tomorrow. As is every day till you pass from this life into the next. But the opposite is true as well. Today is a day in which you can drop your cross. You can refuse to work for Him. You can walk away from the faith. You can sell Him out for 30 pieces of silver as many Evangelical leaders have done. (For more information on that, read Megan Basham's excellent book "Shepherds for Sale".)

When that day comes, the only thing you can say is "I'm with Him", and you hope to hear the words "Well done good and faithful servant.". Just remember that there is something much more ominous that you can hear on that day as well: "Depart from me. I never knew you."

---

What's being argued as "normative" is not the proximity of the thief's confession to his death, but rather the sufficiency of his faith alone for salvation (i.e. the content). How many times in a row do you need this explained?

Faith alone for salvation is clearly what is being demonstrated in the example of the thief on the cross. Regardless if one is running a "10 ft dash" or a "marathon", there is no difference in how salvation "plays out" with regard to the requirement. It's only and always faith in Jesus that saves. This is repeatedly taught in scripture, most notably in this example of the thief. How is the requirement for salvation different depending on whether you live long or short? You seem to be making the same very unbiblical argument that OldBear was making. What is the biblical evidence for this? It seems to be a made up, ad hoc belief for those who need to explain away the thief on the cross and faith alone because it conflicts with their preferred belief.If

You're saying that the thief's faith "began the process", and then you only mention that he "finished it" at death. Well, what occurred in the short interim that led to him being "restored in the image and likeness"? All he did in that time was confess his faith, and then he was told he was saved. So you're showing that the process only involves faith, as in faith alone. So why would this be different for anyone else? Again, what is your biblical argument for this?

The Thief On The Cross:

1) Admitted he was a sinner
2) Admitted that Jesus did nothing wrong
3) Asked Jesus to remember him when He enters His Kingdom.
4) Hence, the thief repented and turned to God for Salvation.

Jesus replied, "Today you will be with me in paradise

***This was before the resurrection***

After the resurrection, we must also believe that Jesus died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for our sins.

It's not complicated. Nothing added. Good. Works should follow Salvation, they don't cause Salvation.

Today is Sunday please find a good Bible believing Church and attend!

Realitybites said:

---

Randy Gradishar's induction speech. Watch it starting at the 6:40 mark.

---

Amen

The Greatest Bible Teacher, Les Feldick will walk you through the Scriptures.

Check out his link here. 25 minute lessons starting in Genesis

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

It began that process. His death, shortly after it was his finish line. The thief on the cross ran a 10 foot dash. Most of us have a marathon to run after the starting gun. The flaw in your soteriology is that you are using the proximity of the thief's confession and death as somehow normative for how salvation plays itself out in the lives of most Christians.

I'm sure many have heard the statement "today is the day of salvation." It is true, just not in the way that it is used. It does not mean walk the aisle, pray the Christian shahada, and collect your boarding pass to heaven.

It means that today is another opportunity to pick up your cross and follow Him and have the Holy Spirit continue the process of restoring His image and likeness in you. As is tomorrow. As is every day till you pass from this life into the next. But the opposite is true as well. Today is a day in which you can drop your cross. You can refuse to work for Him. You can walk away from the faith. You can sell Him out for 30 pieces of silver as many Evangelical leaders have done. (For more information on that, read Megan Basham's excellent book "Shepherds for Sale".)

When that day comes, the only thing you can say is "I'm with Him", and you hope to hear the words "Well done good and faithful servant.". Just remember that there is something much more ominous that you can hear on that day as well: "Depart from me. I never knew you."

---

What's being argued as "normative" is not the proximity of the thief's confession to his death, but rather the sufficiency of his faith alone for salvation (i.e. the content). How many times in a row do you need this explained?

Faith alone for salvation is clearly what is being demonstrated in the example of the thief on the cross. Regardless if one is running a "10 ft dash" or a "marathon", there is no difference in how salvation "plays out" with regard to the requirement. It's only and always faith in Jesus that saves. This is repeatedly taught in scripture, most notably in this example of the thief. How is the requirement for salvation different depending on whether you live long or short? You seem to be making the same very unbiblical argument that OldBear was making. What is the biblical evidence for this? It seems to be a made up, ad hoc belief for those who need to explain away the thief on the cross and faith alone because it conflicts with their preferred belief.If

You're saying that the thief's faith "began the process", and then you only mention that he "finished it" at death. Well, what occurred in the short interim that led to him being "restored in the image and likeness"? All he did in that time was confess his faith, and then he was told he was saved. So you're showing that the process only involves faith, as in faith alone. So why would this be different for anyone else? Again, what is your biblical argument for this?

---

Under Grace, as we currently live in, I certainly believe that it was faith without works, but under law, it can get tricky at times it seems to indicate that those under law were saved by faith and works. That's why people who follow the gospels and non Pauline writings and then mix them with Paul's grace are so confused because they can't reconcile them. They are two different messages to teo different audiences. Only Dispensationalism makes sense theologically.