Quote:

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Well, what occurred in the short interim that led to him being "restored in the image and likeness"? All he did in that time was confess his faith,

---

He rebuked the faithless thief.

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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Well, what occurred in the short interim that led to him being "restored in the image and likeness"? All he did in that time was confess his faith,

---

He rebuked the faithless thief.

---

Well, yes, the thief that repented did rebuke the other one, confessing that Jesus had never done anything wrong and was not guilty while the other two were guilty.

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

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Well, what occurred in the short interim that led to him being "restored in the image and likeness"? All he did in that time was confess his faith,

---

He rebuked the faithless thief.

---

- So, if we rebuke those who don't have faith, that restores us to the image and likeness of God and we are saved?

- If the thief had NOT rebuked the thief, but did everything else the same (repent, believed in Jesus), then he would NOT have been saved?

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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Well, what occurred in the short interim that led to him being "restored in the image and likeness"? All he did in that time was confess his faith,

---

He rebuked the faithless thief.

---

What does that mean to you that he rebuked the faithless thief? What significance is that?

Tomorrow is Sunday. Find a good Bible believing Church and attend!

Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

Pray for America. May God have mercy on us and bring our Nation back to Him.

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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You don't like the fact that Jesus Ministry was to the Jews under the Law, NOT the Gentiles under Grace.

---

Where did you first here of this concept that Jesus' ministry was a separate message that Paul's? Did you learn it from someone, school, or church?

Where is this first taught in the antiquity of Christianity?

---

Dispensationalism is Scriptural, but was lost for centuries.

https://www.foi.org/2024/02/16/did-darby-invent-dispensationalism/


It was popularized by John Nelson Darby who also translated the Scriptures

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

My favorite Scholar is Dr Lewis Sperry Chafer who was a genius and wrote Systematic Theology by Dr Lewis Sperry Chafer. Many Volumes and makes much more sense than reformed theology. He was also ahead of the Dallas Theological Seminary. One of his students was Dr James Vernon McGee who is on the Christian radio every day. He is one of the most popular bible teachers in america. But he died probably in the 1980s.

saabing bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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If by "water baptism is necessary before we are saved" you mean that without water baptism, we are NOT saved, then wouldn't that falsify Jesus' words? If Jesus said, "whoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life", but yet a person who hears the gospel, believes in Jesus, and trusts in Jesus for salvation, but dies before getting water baptized meaning he ends up NOT getting saved - wouldn't this make Jesus wrong? Because here we have a person who died fully believing in Jesus, but DID NOT get saved!

---

A person who truly believes will act according to that faith. Suppose I tell you a giant meteor will land on you in 10 seconds. If you believe me you will get up and move, if you don't believe me you will not move.

God's Word tells us that at baptism our sins are removed and that we are united with Christ. This is something we will only do if we believe Jesus is the son of God. If a person dies before he can be baptized this is in God's hands and I trust Him to do what is right.

If I say that I can drive my car if I can find my keys this does not mean that the car's battery has nothing to do with being able to start my car.

---

Baptism doesn't save. It was a command to Israel who were still under the Law that they:

Repent
Be Baptized In Water
Accept their Messiah

Hence we have Peter saying

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again, This was to Israel.

AFTER Israel Rejected Christ God turned to the Apostle Paul to be the Apostle of the Gentiles and to Spread the Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles. It is a different message.
:
The Message of Grace is:

Faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead, shedding HIs blood as a Sacrifice for your sins.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Nothing in Paul's writings about water Baptism saving but there is a Baptism that saves under Grace. It is a Baptism by the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe in Christ and His resurrection to pay for our sins: Not a drop of water in this verse:


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one bodywhether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freeand have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

This is what happens when you turn to the Lord Jesus Christ believing that He died and rose again as the Sacrifice for your sins.

Israel's Kingdom Gospel and Our Grace Gospel

https://www.matthewmcgee.org/2gospels.html

Rather than have this thread repeatedly bumped by a neverending infomercial for Les Feldick I'm going to start a series on the lives of the saints. Knowing church history is important. It keeps you from falling into a trap where there is this 1500 year gap between the death of Saint John and Martin Luther. What's more, it is edifying to see how others who came before you followed Christ and what they went through. It doesn't make much sense to sing a hymn about the family of God and then bury all the family pictures in the back yard, does it.

Lessons From The Saints, Episode 1
Saint Nicholas, the Wonderworker

Nicholas was born in the province of Lycia in the southern part of Asia Minor in the city of Patara to well-to-do parents. Sadly, his parents died at a young age. Having inherited his parents' estate, he was motivated by the story of the rich young ruler and to use that wealth for the kingdom. Nicholas became known for his generous gifts to those in need. Once, faced with a situation in which a man from Patra who had lost all his money, Nicholas secretly gave him money from his inheritance for their dowry.

As a youth, he made pilgrimages to Palestine and Egypt (yes, these were both Christian nations once). He was subsequently consecrated Archbishop of Myra as the fourth century began.

Imprisoned during the persecutions of Diocletian, he was released by Constantine after his conversion to Christianity and ascension to the throne.

He attended the Council of Nicea, and there Nicholas defended the doctrine of the Trinity against the heresies of Arius.

Saint Nicholas died on December 6th, a date that is still commemorated in the church today.

But you already know of him, under another name. Saint Nicholas. Saint Nick. Santa Claus. As immigrants from the Germanic and Nordic lands settled in the United States the image of St. Nicholas, or "Sinterklaas," as he is known among the Dutch, slowly changed to that of "Santa Claus."

And now you know why we follow the selfless example of Saint Nicholas by giving gifts at Christmas.

Saint Nicholas, pray for us.

Realitybites said:

---

Rather than have this thread repeatedly bumped by a neverending infomercial for Les Feldick I'm going to start a series on the lives of the saints. Knowing church history is important. It keeps you from falling into a trap where there is this 1500 year gap between the death of Saint John and Martin Luther. What's more, it is edifying to see how others who came before you followed Christ and what they went through. It doesn't make much sense to sing a hymn about the family of God and then bury all the family pictures in the back yard, does it.

Lessons From The Saints, Episode 1
Saint Nicholas, the Wonderworker

Nicholas was born in the province of Lycia in the southern part of Asia Minor in the city of Patara to well-to-do parents. Sadly, his parents died at a young age. Having inherited his parents' estate, he was motivated by the story of the rich young ruler and to use that wealth for the kingdom. Nicholas became known for his generous gifts to those in need. Once, faced with a situation in which a man from Patra who had lost all his money, Nicholas secretly gave him money from his inheritance for their dowry.

As a youth, he made pilgrimages to Palestine and Egypt (yes, these were both Christian nations once). He was subsequently consecrated Archbishop of Myra as the fourth century began.

Imprisoned during the persecutions of Diocletian, he was released by Constantine after his conversion to Christianity and ascension to the throne.

He attended the Council of Nicea, and there Nicholas defended the doctrine of the Trinity against the heresies of Arius.

Saint Nicholas died on December 6th, a date that is still commemorated in the church today.

But you already know of him, under another name. Saint Nicholas. Saint Nick. Santa Claus. As immigrants from the Germanic and Nordic lands settled in the United States the image of St. Nicholas, or "Sinterklaas," as he is known among the Dutch, slowly changed to that of "Santa Claus."

And now you know why we follow the selfless example of Saint Nicholas by giving gifts at Christmas.

Saint Nicholas, pray for us.

---

It's good to know church history, but in regard to our salvation, the story of the thief on the cross is far, far more important than that of Saint Nicholas. The thief is the only person we know of through the written record who was told by Jesus directly that he was going to heaven. We have no record of Jesus doing the same for Nicholas. It's probably a safe bet Nicholas is in heaven, given all his good works and all that he sacrificed for his faith, but it's interesting how we only have the thief on record as being surely saved, and he had absolutely nothing to bring to the table as far as merit. He only had repentance and faith. I believe his story is in the Gospels for a reason.

So whatever your belief is on salvation, it has to be consistent with the biblical story of the thief on the cross (along with many other parts in Scripture) not with extra-biblical church history. If you're finding it isn't consistent, then you really have to examine your beliefs and ask yourself hard questions, not just let the discrepancy roll off your back while you keep on truckin' with your beliefs.

"...we follow the selfless example of Saint Nicholas" - the only example of ultimate selflessness that we need and should follow is Jesus Christ, and giving gifts on Christmas should be in commemoration of Jesus' ultimate gift of eternal life to us. Give glory to Jesus, not the saints. And pray only to God/Jesus, not the saints. Nowhere in the bible does it tell us to do that, or that those who died who are in heaven can hear us, read what we write, or know our thoughts. Only Jesus can.

Realitybites said:

---

Rather than have this thread repeatedly bumped by a neverending infomercial for Les Feldick I'm going to start a series on the lives of the saints. Knowing church history is important. It keeps you from falling into a trap where there is this 1500 year gap between the death of Saint John and Martin Luther. What's more, it is edifying to see how others who came before you followed Christ and what they went through. It doesn't make much sense to sing a hymn about the family of God and then bury all the family pictures in the back yard, does it.

Lessons From The Saints, Episode 1
Saint Nicholas, the Wonderworker

Nicholas was born in the province of Lycia in the southern part of Asia Minor in the city of Patara to well-to-do parents. Sadly, his parents died at a young age. Having inherited his parents' estate, he was motivated by the story of the rich young ruler and to use that wealth for the kingdom. Nicholas became known for his generous gifts to those in need. Once, faced with a situation in which a man from Patra who had lost all his money, Nicholas secretly gave him money from his inheritance for their dowry.

As a youth, he made pilgrimages to Palestine and Egypt (yes, these were both Christian nations once). He was subsequently consecrated Archbishop of Myra as the fourth century began.

Imprisoned during the persecutions of Diocletian, he was released by Constantine after his conversion to Christianity and ascension to the throne.

He attended the Council of Nicea, and there Nicholas defended the doctrine of the Trinity against the heresies of Arius.

Saint Nicholas died on December 6th, a date that is still commemorated in the church today.

But you already know of him, under another name. Saint Nicholas. Saint Nick. Santa Claus. As immigrants from the Germanic and Nordic lands settled in the United States the image of St. Nicholas, or "Sinterklaas," as he is known among the Dutch, slowly changed to that of "Santa Claus."

And now you know why we follow the selfless example of Saint Nicholas by giving gifts at Christmas.

Saint Nicholas, pray for us.

---

Church History is fine, but we need proper Biblical Doctrine more than anything else. The Scriptures Trump any Church History, any Saint, any Traditions of the Church, any Pope, anything else because it is the very Word of God and God cannot contradict Himself. I hope St Nicholas is alive to pray for you because no where in Scripture are we instructed to pray to the dead or ask the dead to pray for us. We have but one Mediator, Jesus Christ.

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)

Some people insist on saying that people who are very much alive are dead, despite Jesus clearly stating tbe opposite.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us," (Hebrews 12:1)

Anyway.

Realitybites said:

---

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)

Some people insist on saying that people who are very much alive are dead, despite Jesus clearly stating tbe opposite.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us," (Hebrews 12:1)

Anyway.

---

Believing people are alive in heaven and believing they can hear or read our prayers or read your mind are two very different things. Nothing in the bible tells us the latter is true. You have to read into bible verses something that isn't there in order to come to that conclusion.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)

Some people insist on saying that people who are very much alive are dead, despite Jesus clearly stating tbe opposite.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us," (Hebrews 12:1)

Anyway.

---

Believing people are alive in heaven and believing they can hear or read our prayers or read your mind are two very different things. Nothing in the bible tells us the latter is true. You have to read into bible verses something that isn't there in order to come to that conclusion.

---

Matthew 22:32 -
'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Matthew 17:3 - On Mt. Tabor at the Transfiguration -
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Revelation 6:9-11 -
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Revelation 5:8 -
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

Revelation 8:3-4 -
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Plenty of Biblical evidence that the saints and the angles are aware of our prayers and present them to God.

Plus add that James 5:16 says that the "Prayers of a righteous man availeth much." One doesn't get more righteous than those in heaven.

The Church fathers also believed that the saints in heaven hear our prayers:

Clement of Alexandria - A.D 208
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]"

Origen - A.D. 233
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep"

Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).

So did Methodius (305), Cyril of Jerusalem (350), Hilary of Poitiers (365), Ephraim the Syrian (370), St Basil (373), St Jerome (406), St Augustine (419).

All Christendom for 1500+ years have consistently believed this before Protestants denied what was always taught.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)

Some people insist on saying that people who are very much alive are dead, despite Jesus clearly stating tbe opposite.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us," (Hebrews 12:1)

Anyway.

---

Believing people are alive in heaven and believing they can hear or read our prayers or read your mind are two very different things. Nothing in the bible tells us the latter is true. You have to read into bible verses something that isn't there in order to come to that conclusion.

---

Matthew 22:32 -
'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Matthew 17:3 - On Mt. Tabor at the Transfiguration -
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Revelation 6:9-11 -
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Revelation 5:8 -
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

Revelation 8:3-4 -
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Plenty of Biblical evidence that the saints and the angles are aware of our prayers and present them to God.

Plus add that James 5:16 says that the "Prayers of a righteous man availeth much." One doesn't get more righteous than those in heaven.

The Church fathers also believed that the saints in heaven hear our prayers:

Clement of Alexandria - A.D 208
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]"

Origen - A.D. 233
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep"

Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).

So did Methodius (305), Cyril of Jerusalem (350), Hilary of Poitiers (365), Ephraim the Syrian (370), St Basil (373), St Jerome (406), St Augustine (419).

All Christendom for 1500+ years have consistently believed this before Protestants denied what was always taught.

---

These are examples of the dead communicating with GOD, not the living people communicating with the dead to pray for them. Zero examples of that, and that is what you need to show to make your argument. We also don't go by what Church Fathers or Saints say, we go by the Bible, the Word of God. If it can't be backed up by the Word, then there is serious issue with it. Even so, off hand, using your example of Origen, HE even said that Christ ALONE prays for those who pray sincerely....Even so, this isn't Scripture.

There is but ONE Mediator between God and Men:


1 Timothy 2:5 (NIV)

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)

Some people insist on saying that people who are very much alive are dead, despite Jesus clearly stating tbe opposite.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us," (Hebrews 12:1)

Anyway.

---

Believing people are alive in heaven and believing they can hear or read our prayers or read your mind are two very different things. Nothing in the bible tells us the latter is true. You have to read into bible verses something that isn't there in order to come to that conclusion.

---

Matthew 22:32 -
'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Matthew 17:3 - On Mt. Tabor at the Transfiguration -
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Revelation 6:9-11 -
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Revelation 5:8 -
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

Revelation 8:3-4 -
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Plenty of Biblical evidence that the saints and the angles are aware of our prayers and present them to God.

Plus add that James 5:16 says that the "Prayers of a righteous man availeth much." One doesn't get more righteous than those in heaven.

The Church fathers also believed that the saints in heaven hear our prayers:

Clement of Alexandria - A.D 208
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]"

Origen - A.D. 233
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep"

Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).

So did Methodius (305), Cyril of Jerusalem (350), Hilary of Poitiers (365), Ephraim the Syrian (370), St Basil (373), St Jerome (406), St Augustine (419).

All Christendom for 1500+ years have consistently believed this before Protestants denied what was always taught.

---

None of those verses say that those in heaven hear our prayers, read what we write, or know our thoughts. You are reading these into them. It's very puzzling how you interpreted Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration to mean that they can hear and know our prayers so we can pray to them. That's reaching quite a bit. Especially since according to the account the disciples who witnessed the event themselves never spoke to the two (and the two never spoke to the disciples) and the disciples never even once mentioned the idea of praying to them in their Gospels.

The fact that you have to cite church fathers centuries after the original apostolic authors of the New Testament for explicit reference only highlights the point - the bible doesn't teach it. Never in the entire history of the Jewish people and their religion was it ever taught or practiced - in fact communicating with the departed was expressly forbidden. So Protestantism isn't "denying what was always taught", it conforms to what was originally taught in Scripture. Rather, it's the belief of praying to saints that is the breaking away from what was originally taught. So the salient question here is: by what divine revelation from God is this belief based on, since it is not based on the divine revelation of Scripture?

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

These are examples of the dead communicating with GOD, not the living people communicating with the dead to pray for them. Zero examples of that, and that is what you need to show to make your argument. We also don't go by what Church Fathers or Saints say, we go by the Bible, the Word of God. If it can't be backed up by the Word, then there is serious issue with it. Even so, off hand, using your example of Origen, HE even said that Christ ALONE prays for those who pray sincerely....Even so, this isn't Scripture.

---

Please try reading the text more closely ... it says,

"But NOT the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep"

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

There is but ONE Mediator between God and Men:


1 Timothy 2:5 (NIV)

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

---

And we Catholics say, "AMEN!" There is one mediator, but many intercessors.

Have you ever prayed for anyone else? Why so? Why didn't you just let them pray for themselves?

Coke Bear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

These are examples of the dead communicating with GOD, not the living people communicating with the dead to pray for them. Zero examples of that, and that is what you need to show to make your argument. We also don't go by what Church Fathers or Saints say, we go by the Bible, the Word of God. If it can't be backed up by the Word, then there is serious issue with it. Even so, off hand, using your example of Origen, HE even said that Christ ALONE prays for those who pray sincerely....Even so, this isn't Scripture.

---

Please try reading the text more closely ... it says,

"But NOT the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep"

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

There is but ONE Mediator between God and Men:


1 Timothy 2:5 (NIV)

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

---

And we Catholics say, "AMEN!" There is one mediator, but many intercessors.

Have you ever prayed for anyone else? Why so? Why didn't you just let them pray for themselves?

---

Coke Bear, what I do not understand is, given we have access to pray to Christ as our Intercessor, why would we choose instead to pray to a fellow sinner?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

None of those verses say that those in heaven hear our prayers, read what we write, or know our thoughts. You are reading these into them. It's very puzzling how you interpreted Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration to mean that they can hear and know our prayers so we can pray to them. That's reaching quite a bit. Especially since according to the account the disciples who witnessed the event themselves never spoke to the two (and the two never spoke to the disciples) and the disciples never even once mentioned the idea of praying to them in their Gospels.

---

Multiple passages in Revelation show that the angels and saints know whats happening on earth. They are bringing our prayers to the altar in Heaven.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

The fact that you have to cite church fathers centuries after the original apostolic authors of the New Testament for explicit reference only highlights the point - the bible doesn't teach it. Never in the entire history of the Jewish people and their religion was it ever taught or practiced - in fact communicating with the departed was expressly forbidden. So Protestantism isn't "denying what was always taught", it conforms to what was originally taught in Scripture. Rather, it's the belief of praying to saints that is the breaking away from what was originally taught. So the salient question here is: by what divine revelation from God is this belief based on, since it is not based on the divine revelation of Scripture?

---

Once again, you are living by the false, self-refuting, and anti-biblical Sola Scriptura.

I'm sure your aware that Heaven was closed off to those before Christ opened the gates. Those Jews would NOT have asked their dead to intercede for them. They were not in Heaven at that point.

They certainly prayed for the dead as evidenced in Maccabees.

Why should anyone take your interpretation of the Bible of these passages? What authority do you have to dispute what has been taught for 2000 years? The Church fathers, who were closer to Jesus and His apostles, believed in the intercession of saints. Why should we trust some random guy on the internet nearly 2000 years later with a contrary opinion?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear, what I do not understand is, given we have access to pray to Christ as our Intercessor, why would we choose instead to pray to a fellow sinner?

---

Fair question. IIRC, I believe that you once stated that you do not ask people to pray for you or visa versa. If that wasn't you, then I certainly apologize.

The Catholic Church believes that we ALL are the Body of Christ and Jesus is the head of that body.

Just like St. Paul said, 1 Corinthians 12:15-26, discussing who each part of the the body is essential, to God, we are all essential to the Christian body. God wants us to pray for one another. We need each other.

"If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it."

The NT is replete with verses of those praying for one another or requests that we pray for one another:

Matt 6:14-15, Romans 10:1, Col 1:9, James, 5:16, Matt 5:44, 1 Tim 2:1, and on, and on, etc.

Yes, I'm a sinner, but I still pray for a litany of people every night. I hope that some of them pray for me.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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None of those verses say that those in heaven hear our prayers, read what we write, or know our thoughts. You are reading these into them. It's very puzzling how you interpreted Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration to mean that they can hear and know our prayers so we can pray to them. That's reaching quite a bit. Especially since according to the account the disciples who witnessed the event themselves never spoke to the two (and the two never spoke to the disciples) and the disciples never even once mentioned the idea of praying to them in their Gospels.

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Multiple passages in Revelation show that the angels and saints know whats happening on earth. They are bringing our prayers to the altar in Heaven.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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The fact that you have to cite church fathers centuries after the original apostolic authors of the New Testament for explicit reference only highlights the point - the bible doesn't teach it. Never in the entire history of the Jewish people and their religion was it ever taught or practiced - in fact communicating with the departed was expressly forbidden. So Protestantism isn't "denying what was always taught", it conforms to what was originally taught in Scripture. Rather, it's the belief of praying to saints that is the breaking away from what was originally taught. So the salient question here is: by what divine revelation from God is this belief based on, since it is not based on the divine revelation of Scripture?

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Once again, you are living by the false, self-refuting, and anti-biblical Sola Scriptura.

I'm sure your aware that Heaven was closed off to those before Christ opened the gates. Those Jews would NOT have asked their dead to intercede for them. They were not in Heaven at that point.

They certainly prayed for the dead as evidenced in Maccabees.

Why should anyone take your interpretation of the Bible of these passages? What authority do you have to dispute what has been taught for 2000 years? The Church fathers, who were closer to Jesus and His apostles, believed in the intercession of saints. Why should we trust some random guy on the internet nearly 2000 years later with a contrary opinion?

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- What "multiple passages" in Revelation are those that show those in heaven hear and know our prayers?

- Why, if the dead can intercede for us when they're in heaven, could they NOT intercede for us before then? By what divine revelation are you basing this on? By what logic is that based?

- praying FOR the dead isn't the same thing as praying TO the dead. You're moving the goalposts.

- why are you making this about me? It's not about me, it's about what's in or not in Scripture. And you just aren't making a good argument for it being in Scripture.

- I will add to OldBear's point of "why pray to them when we can pray to Jesus" - how do you even know the people you are praying to are actually IN heaven to begin with? By what divine revelation are you basing it on? It's a safe bet for many of them, but still, it's just an assumption and you don't know for 100% sure. Remember that Jesus taught that doing mighty works in his name is NOT proof that you are saved (Matthew 7:22-23).

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear, what I do not understand is, given we have access to pray to Christ as our Intercessor, why would we choose instead to pray to a fellow sinner?

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Yes, I'm a sinner, but I still pray for a litany of people every night. I hope that some of them pray for me.

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Do you ever pray TO them?

We're back to the same thing that we discussed earlier, what do you mean by "praying to them"?

Coke Bear said:

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We're back to the same thing that we discussed earlier, what do you mean by "praying to them"?

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Speaking for myself, I pray to the Father and ask Him to help specific people by name, which is what I mean by praying for someone.

I do not try to speak to or with the dead, as Scripture clearly forbids such practices. Cf Witch of Endor, for example, or the Rich Man in Jesus' parable about Lazarus the beggar.

I do the same thing. I ask God to pray for them. I also ask the saints in heaven to pray for my request as well.

If the the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, there are none more righteous that those in heaven.

I'll take anyone praying for me that I can get.

When one looks closely at those passages in Deuteronomy, we notice that it's not communication with the dead that is prohibited, it's the conjuring the dead up with wizards and mediums and their trying to manipulate the spiritual realm at will.

This is why we should go nowhere near tarot cards, palm readers, or Ouija boards. Even when I was young, I would never try the "Bloody Mary" trick in the mirror.


One shouldn't mess with the spiritual realm.

As mentioned earlier, Jesus communicated with the dead at the Transfiguration. Jesus would NEVER do something that was wrong. Nor would he lead by a poor example, I.e. do as I say, but not as I do.

Coke Bear: "Jesus communicated with the dead at the Transfiguration"


And it has always been my understanding that Jesus doing so was further confirmation of His Person and Authority. No other person in the Bible ever did such a thing.

Devil's avocate, let say that that was the case. Would he still be leading a poor example by being with or speaking to them?

When we ask the saints to intercede for us, we're merely asking a holy person (soul) to pray for us. That's it.

It's the same if I was to ask you to pray for me. Two prayers are better than one.

Coke Bear said:

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Devil's avocate, let say that that was the case. Would he still be leading a poor example by being with or speaking to them?

When we ask the saints to intercede for us, we're merely asking a holy person (soul) to pray for us. That's it.

It's the same if I was to ask you to pray for me. Two prayers are better than one.

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Again, when Jesus did that, He was not 'setting an example' but acting in His Authority.

There are a number of verses where someone falls 'as if dead' in the presence of an angel or God, but is raised up by His power. It is therefore perfectly reasonable that God can bring any person to a living condition, seeing as He gave us Life in the first place.

It's not at all something we would ever do in our role as servant, excepting unique circumstances when commanded by God.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)

Some people insist on saying that people who are very much alive are dead, despite Jesus clearly stating tbe opposite.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us," (Hebrews 12:1)

Anyway.

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Believing people are alive in heaven and believing they can hear or read our prayers or read your mind are two very different things. Nothing in the bible tells us the latter is true. You have to read into bible verses something that isn't there in order to come to that conclusion.

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Billy Graham disagrees with your take on this.

"Do those in Heaven know what's happening on earth? The Bible doesn't answer all our questions about Heavenbut it does indicate that those who have already entered Heaven may be aware of events on earth. The book of Hebrews, for example, pictures life as a great arena, with those who have gone before us cheering us on in our daily spiritual struggles (see Hebrews 12:1). Once when Jesus' appearance was changed and His heavenly glory shone through, Moses and Elijah spoke with Him about events on the earth (see Luke 9:30-31)."

Https://billygraham.org/answer/can-people-in-heaven-see-whats-happening-on-earth/

The prohibition against necromancy is found in Deuteronomy:

"Or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,"
(18:11)

First, as my previous scriptures above have shown the saints are not dead. Jesus said so himself. Second, asking living Christians to pray to Christ on your behalf for is not inquiring of anything.

But as we see in this case, sola scriptura often devolves into sola opinionata...and when presented with the Biblical evidence, it is rejected based on opinion anyway.

It is important to understand that the state of the dead was fundamentally different prior to the crucifixion and resurrection. As Jesus tells us, the people of God who died went to Abraham's bosom. After the resurrection, Saint Paul tells us absent from the body present with the Lord. What changed was 1st Peter 4:6 in the three days that Jesus was in the tomb.