Coke Bear said:

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We're back to the same thing that we discussed earlier, what do you mean by "praying to them"?

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The meaning is obvious. When you pray FOR someone, you're praying TO God/Jesus. When you're praying TO someone, you're not addressing God/Jesus, you're addressing that person as if they can hear/know your prayer. This is conferring upon that person divine attributes that only God/Jesus is known to have. At best it's unscriptural, at worst it's idolatrous.

Realitybites said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Realitybites said:

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"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)

Some people insist on saying that people who are very much alive are dead, despite Jesus clearly stating tbe opposite.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us," (Hebrews 12:1)

Anyway.

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Believing people are alive in heaven and believing they can hear or read our prayers or read your mind are two very different things. Nothing in the bible tells us the latter is true. You have to read into bible verses something that isn't there in order to come to that conclusion.

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Billy Graham disagrees with your take on this.

"Do those in Heaven know what's happening on earth? The Bible doesn't answer all our questions about Heavenbut it does indicate that those who have already entered Heaven may be aware of events on earth. The book of Hebrews, for example, pictures life as a great arena, with those who have gone before us cheering us on in our daily spiritual struggles (see Hebrews 12:1). Once when Jesus' appearance was changed and His heavenly glory shone through, Moses and Elijah spoke with Him about events on the earth (see Luke 9:30-31)."

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Billy Graham also said that Muslims and Buddhists are part of the body of Christ. I disagree with him there as well. Billy Graham isn't Scripture, and so he can be wrong, like he is there. So I don't understand your point.

For those against Sola Scriptura - Sola Scripture HAS to be adhered to. Otherwise, to what do you weigh teachings/claims against to determine if they are false? Scripture is the only thing the Church has in its possession that we know is the divine revelation of God. Without this principle, anyone can add what they want to Christianity and then claim early tradition for its authority. Gnosticism had claim to earlier tradition than praying to saints. Yet the earliest Christians rejected this tradition - why? Because it was not consistent with the Old Testament and the original apostolic writings, i.e. sola scriptura.

Quote:

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Without this principle, anyone can add what they want to Christianity and then claim early tradition for its authority.

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No, because that tradition exists within the church that Christ founded. You can't just go around "adding" things to the teaching of Christ and the 12. That's one of the places that the Roman Catholic church went off the rails after the schism. But you can't simply can't come around 2000 years after the fact and impose modern opinions on scriptures that weren't clearly defined for 300 years and not widely distributed for 1500 and say that these modern opinions were written on stone tablets on Mount Sinai. That's how the SBC and the rest of modern protestantism has gone off the rails.

Asking the Saints of the Church to pray for us has been established practice since the beginning because Christians understood the transformation of the state of the dead that the crucifixion and resurrection represented.. You've been provided the scripture as to why this is valid and not necomancy. If you continue to reject it based on your opinion and your personal reading of an abbreviated bible, what religion is that exactly?

Realitybites said:

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Quote:

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Without this principle, anyone can add what they want to Christianity and then claim early tradition for its authority.

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No, because that tradition exists within the church that Christ founded. You can't just go around "adding" things to the teaching of Christ and the 12. That's one of the places that the Roman Catholic church went off the rails after the schism. But you can't simply can't come around 2000 years after the fact and impose modern opinions on scriptures that weren't clearly defined for 300 years and not widely distributed for 1500 and say that these modern opinions were written on stone tablets on Mount Sinai. That's how the SBC and the rest of modern protestantism has gone off the rails.

Asking the Saints of the Church to pray for us has been established practice since the beginning because Christians understood the transformation of the state of the dead that the crucifixion and resurrection represented.. You've been provided the scripture as to why this is valid and not necomancy. If you continue to reject it based on your opinion and your personal reading of an abbreviated bible, what religion is that exactly?

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"No, because that tradition exists within the church that Christ founded. You can't just go around "adding" things to the teaching of Christ and the 12." - you've just made the argument for sola scriptura. The only thing the church has in its possession that we know to contain the teachings of Jesus and his 12 (original apostolic tradition) is what's in Scripture, which includes the Old Testament, which Jesus himself verified "every jot and tittle" as God's word.

What you simply haven't shown, is that this original apostolic tradition contained praying to saints. So no, it has NOT been established practice from the beginning. It was an addition after Christianity became the official religion of Rome in the 4th century, when their pagan gods were transitioned over to Christianity by becoming the "saints" so that the pagans of Rome could continue praying to them. So if your religion has these roots, then what religion is THAT, exactly?

A "transformation of the state of the dead" because of the crucifixion does not necessarily mean departed believers can hear, read, or know our prayers and therefore we can pray to them. This is yet another ad hoc logical reach and eisegetical insertion that you're employing, the same as you did with those bible verses that you say support praying to saints, but simply do not. You're just reading into it what you want to be there. THAT's the "personal reading" that's really going on here. A plain reading and honest treatment of the text shows that it just isn't there. And again - how do you even know for sure that these people, like St. Nicholas, are in heaven to begin with? By what divine revelation are you basing it on? It's all presumptive.

You're extrapolating out bad eisegesis and mere presumption into established practice and belief that is at best unbiblical and at worst idolatrous with pagan roots. So why do it? Especially since we are all given direct access to JESUS himself, and all glory to him.

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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These are examples of the dead communicating with GOD, not the living people communicating with the dead to pray for them. Zero examples of that, and that is what you need to show to make your argument. We also don't go by what Church Fathers or Saints say, we go by the Bible, the Word of God. If it can't be backed up by the Word, then there is serious issue with it. Even so, off hand, using your example of Origen, HE even said that Christ ALONE prays for those who pray sincerely....Even so, this isn't Scripture.

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Please try reading the text more closely ... it says,

"But NOT the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep"

xfrodobagginsx said:

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There is but ONE Mediator between God and Men:


1 Timothy 2:5 (NIV)

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

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And we Catholics say, "AMEN!" There is one mediator, but many intercessors.

Have you ever prayed for anyone else? Why so? Why didn't you just let them pray for themselves?

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Where in this verse does it say that we are to pray to the dead Saints? Angels? It says that THEY pray for us. It DOES NOT say that WE are to pray to THEM. Also, what Bible verse are you using? Address? Not sure that is even Scripture.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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We're back to the same thing that we discussed earlier, what do you mean by "praying to them"?

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The meaning is obvious. When you pray FOR someone, you're praying TO God/Jesus. When you're praying TO someone, you're not addressing God/Jesus, you're addressing that person as if they can hear/know your prayer. This is conferring upon that person divine attributes that only God/Jesus is known to have. At best it's unscriptural, at worst it's idolatrous.

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Angel can hear our prayers.

Revelation 8:3-4 disagrees with you ...

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Revelations 6:911, 7:1314, 11:1518, 16:56, 18:20 all show that that the saints and angels are aware of whats happening on earth.

Oldbear83 said:

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Again, when Jesus did that, He was not 'setting an example' but acting in His Authority.

There are a number of verses where someone falls 'as if dead' in the presence of an angel or God, but is raised up by His power. It is therefore perfectly reasonable that God can bring any person to a living condition, seeing as He gave us Life in the first place.

It's not at all something we would ever do in our role as servant, excepting unique circumstances when commanded by God.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on our interpretations of the Transfiguration.

Irrespective of that, the bible numerously mentions that we should pray for one another.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Where in this verse does it say that we are to pray to the dead Saints? Angels? It says that THEY pray for us. It DOES NOT say that WE are to pray to THEM. Also, what Bible verse are you using? Address? Not sure that is even Scripture.

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Once again, what by you do mean by "pray to THEM"?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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For those against Sola Scriptura - Sola Scripture HAS to be adhered to. Otherwise, to what do you weigh teachings/claims against to determine if they are false? Scripture is the only thing the Church has in its possession that we know is the divine revelation of God. Without this principle, anyone can add what they want to Christianity and then claim early tradition for its authority. Gnosticism had claim to earlier tradition than praying to saints. Yet the earliest Christians rejected this tradition - why? Because it was not consistent with the Old Testament and the original apostolic writings, i.e. sola scriptura.

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Please show me where we find Sola Scriptura in the Bible? You can't. It's self refuting.

Who decides what Scripture means? You, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar?

Finally, I respectfully ask, please refer to this practice as "asking for their intercession." The Church, in her documents, use this language as to not confuse the lay faithful.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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So why do it? Especially since we are all given direct access to JESUS himself, and all glory to him.

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Do you ask people to pray for you? Or do you consider that to be heretical since you have direct access to Jesus?

The Gospel of Grace revealed to Paul

https://www.lesfeldick.org/mp3/43-3-4.mp3

I am 100 percent sure that all of our belief systems are man-made all evidence actual evidence points to that. Former Christian of 35 years here. Take the time to study where all modern religions originated from and do it from objective sources not a source that will confirm your belief. Take the time to understand the truth of who humans are and where they came from and you know you do t need to be saved there was no original human your a mammal with a larger brain capacity than all other mammals, descended from a long history of ape like mammals. You interlinked with other human species that no longer exist and that is in your DNA not to mention the fantastic fossil records we have. Science does not care what you believe it has no agenda except one find the truth and keep challenging the current truths until it is proven out under immense scrutiny. Your own Christian religion has its origins from Greek and other religious ideas thousands of years before. Virgin births, God in man's form, bad gods(the devil) God in man's form sacrificing for man to save him all predate Christianity. It is simply a mix of all kinds of beliefs to create a new one. Pr you can go on believing in superstition.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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We're back to the same thing that we discussed earlier, what do you mean by "praying to them"?

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The meaning is obvious. When you pray FOR someone, you're praying TO God/Jesus. When you're praying TO someone, you're not addressing God/Jesus, you're addressing that person as if they can hear/know your prayer. This is conferring upon that person divine attributes that only God/Jesus is known to have. At best it's unscriptural, at worst it's idolatrous.

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Angel can hear our prayers.

Revelation 8:3-4 disagrees with you ...

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Revelations 6:911, 7:1314, 11:1518, 16:56, 18:20 all show that that the saints and angels are aware of whats happening on earth.

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You are reading into each and every one of those verses. None say that saints can hear or read our prayers or know our minds. They don't even really show that angels do, either. Even if we were to stretch the words and assume it does show that angels can hear them, still, that's not what you're doing - you're praying to saints, not angels. And I highly doubt that angels would want you to pray to them instead of praying to Jesus directly, just as the angel strongly admonished John in Revelation when he bowed down to the angel, telling him to only bow to Jesus.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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For those against Sola Scriptura - Sola Scripture HAS to be adhered to. Otherwise, to what do you weigh teachings/claims against to determine if they are false? Scripture is the only thing the Church has in its possession that we know is the divine revelation of God. Without this principle, anyone can add what they want to Christianity and then claim early tradition for its authority. Gnosticism had claim to earlier tradition than praying to saints. Yet the earliest Christians rejected this tradition - why? Because it was not consistent with the Old Testament and the original apostolic writings, i.e. sola scriptura.

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Please show me where we find Sola Scriptura in the Bible? You can't. It's self refuting.

Who decides what Scripture means? You, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar?

Finally, I respectfully ask, please refer to this practice as "asking for their intercession." The Church, in her documents, use this language as to not confuse the lay faithful.

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This is one of the most puzzling things you've ever posted. You're basically destroying the very basis for your own faith. By your argument, anyone can add what they want to Scripture, and claim it's authoritativeness. I ask again - against what standard should we weigh certain teachings/beliefs against? Should we believe Gnosticism? Because that had a much earlier tradition than praying to saints. Yet, the earliest Christians rejected it. By what principle did they reject it? It conflicted with the Jewish Scriptures and the original apostolic writings, i.e. sola scriptura.

Sola scriptura isn't true because it's in the bible. That'd be circular reasoning. Sola Scriptura is an external, logically necessary truth. If Scripture is all the church has in its possession that we KNOW is divine revelation from God/Jesus, then it is necessary to base our beliefs solely on that, and weigh all teachings/beliefs against it. How is this not logically and necessarily true? How are we to reject early traditions like Gnosticism?

You can refer praying to saints any way you want, I'll refer to it for what it is. Changing vocabulary doesn't change its meaning to God.

Realitybites said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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So why do it? Especially since we are all given direct access to JESUS himself, and all glory to him.

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Do you ask people to pray for you? Or do you consider that to be heretical since you have direct access to Jesus?

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Do you pray to people to pray for you? That'd be conferring upon them certain divine qualities that we know by direct revelation that they don't have. That'd certainly be heretical.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Dispensationalism is Scriptural, but was lost for centuries.

https://www.foi.org/2024/02/16/did-darby-invent-dispensationalism/

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No.

This is an extreme misrepresentation of of Clement and Augustine. Clement never broke down God's rule into 4 dispensations. Augustine did use the term "dispensation", but not in reference to God's love and our love for him.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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It was popularized by John Nelson Darby who also translated the Scriptures

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

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Dispensationalism never existed prior to Darby making up this system.

In doing research on this, your belief that "Jesus was for the Jews only and the Paul's message if for the Gentiles" is known as Hyper-Dispensationalism. It is completely made up with the last 100 years and is easily refuted by the fact that Paul did preach to the Jews in the synagogues in Acts 18:4 and In Acts 10, Peter is directed by God to preach to Cornelius, a Gentile, and his household. Peter also defends the inclusion of Gentiles in the Church without the need for circumcision, affirming their place in the Christian community (Acts 15:7-11).

Saint Thomas is traditionally believed to have traveled to India, and Saint Andrew is thought to have preached in regions around the Black Sea.

joseywales said:

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I am 100 percent sure that all of our belief systems are man-made all evidence actual evidence points to that. Former Christian of 35 years here. Take the time to study where all modern religions originated from and do it from objective sources not a source that will confirm your belief. Take the time to understand the truth of who humans are and where they came from and you know you do t need to be saved there was no original human your a mammal with a larger brain capacity than all other mammals, descended from a long history of ape like mammals. You interlinked with other human species that no longer exist and that is in your DNA not to mention the fantastic fossil records we have. Science does not care what you believe it has no agenda except one find the truth and keep challenging the current truths until it is proven out under immense scrutiny. Your own Christian religion has its origins from Greek and other religious ideas thousands of years before. Virgin births, God in man's form, bad gods(the devil) God in man's form sacrificing for man to save him all predate Christianity. It is simply a mix of all kinds of beliefs to create a new one. Pr you can go on believing in superstition.

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Yet, the historical resurrection of Jesus Christ foils everything you just said....

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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For those against Sola Scriptura - Sola Scripture HAS to be adhered to. Otherwise, to what do you weigh teachings/claims against to determine if they are false? Scripture is the only thing the Church has in its possession that we know is the divine revelation of God. Without this principle, anyone can add what they want to Christianity and then claim early tradition for its authority. Gnosticism had claim to earlier tradition than praying to saints. Yet the earliest Christians rejected this tradition - why? Because it was not consistent with the Old Testament and the original apostolic writings, i.e. sola scriptura.

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Please show me where we find Sola Scriptura in the Bible? You can't. It's self refuting.

Who decides what Scripture means? You, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar?

Finally, I respectfully ask, please refer to this practice as "asking for their intercession." The Church, in her documents, use this language as to not confuse the lay faithful.

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The Trinity is never specifically called so in Scripture, yet I hope we all agree that fairly describes God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit. And if we are to seek some objective means to verify God's will and plan, what better source than Scripture, just as Christ Himself cited to prove His bonafides?

As for what Scripture means, it means what is written.

Finally, while I agree in praying to the Father on behalf of people who we hope the Lord will help, we do not pray to anyone but the Father. Trying to contact the dead, even with the veneer of good intentions, is a very dangerous thing to do.

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Where in this verse does it say that we are to pray to the dead Saints? Angels? It says that THEY pray for us. It DOES NOT say that WE are to pray to THEM. Also, what Bible verse are you using? Address? Not sure that is even Scripture.

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Once again, what by you do mean by "pray to THEM"?

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I mean talk to them as though they are able to answer prayers and ask them to pray for you.

Christians pray, God answers prayer. While that answer may or may not involve using humans as instruments of his will, humans don't answer prayers.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Where in this verse does it say that we are to pray to the dead Saints? Angels? It says that THEY pray for us. It DOES NOT say that WE are to pray to THEM. Also, what Bible verse are you using? Address? Not sure that is even Scripture.

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Once again, what by you do mean by "pray to THEM"?

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I mean talk to them as though they are able to answer prayers and ask them to pray for you.

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The saints cannot answer prayers. They take our prayers to God - God answers our prayers.

Revelation 8:3-4
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Oldbear83 said:

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Finally, while I agree in praying to the Father on behalf of people who we hope the Lord will help, we do not pray to anyone but the Father. Trying to contact the dead, even with the veneer of good intentions, is a very dangerous thing to do.

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The phase "pray to" has been corrupted by modern English. Pray does NOT mean "worship". It means "to ask". Must like lawyers will use the phrase, "I pray the court ..."

As I mentioned earlier, we Catholic use the phrase, "ask for their intercession."

As for communicating with the dead, we don't.

The Bible does teach that the saints are alive. Jesus teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is "not God not of the dead, but of the living" (Matt. 22:32; see also 22:23-33). In addition, Moses and Elijah are alive to Jesus at the Transfiguration and converse with him, even though their earthly deaths had occurred many years before (see Matt. 17:1-8).

Is a Protestant widow in danger of necromancy when she talks to her husband that passed away? Or a child who speaks to their parent in heaven?

Obviously, no. Speaking to those in heaven is NOT a "very dangerous thing to do." It is natural. The only dangerous aspect is when one uses a medium to divine information. This is what's prohibited in Deuteronomy.

Finally, as we beat the dead horse (pun intended), James states the righteous man availeth much. They are no more righteous than those in heaven. They are praying for us.

BusyTarpDuster2017This is one of the most puzzling things you've ever posted. You're basically destroying the very basis for your own faith. By your argument, anyone can add what they want to Scripture, and claim it's authoritativeness. I ask again - against what standard should we weigh certain teachings/beliefs against? Should we believe Gnosticism? Because that had a much earlier tradition than praying to saints. Yet, the earliest Christians rejected it. By what principle did they reject it? [i said:

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It conflicted with the Jewish Scriptures and the original apostolic writings, i.e. sola scriptura.

Sola scriptura isn't true because it's in the bible. That'd be circular reasoning. Sola Scriptura is an external, logically necessary truth. If Scripture is all the church has in its possession that we KNOW is divine revelation from God/Jesus, then it is necessary to base our beliefs solely on that, and weigh all teachings/beliefs against it. How is this not logically and necessarily true? How are we to reject early traditions like Gnosticism?

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Once again, you cannot tell me by what authority that you have to interpret scripture infallibly. The best that you can do is to provide your FALLIBLE interpretation of what you think that scripture means.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You can refer praying to saints any way you want, I'll refer to it for what it is. Changing vocabulary doesn't change its meaning to God.

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It is asking for their intercession. It is NOT worshipping them. You can continue to think so, but your opinion would be incorrect again.

Continue to suggest otherwise, when I and realitybites have explained otherwise (ad nauseum), is arrogant and ignorant.

We'll have to agree to disagree on intercession and continue with another topic.

Quote:

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Once again, you cannot tell me by what authority that you have to interpret scripture infallibly. The best that you can do is to provide your FALLIBLE interpretation of what you think that scripture means.

Quote:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
You can refer praying to saints any way you want, I'll refer to it for what it is. Changing vocabulary doesn't change its meaning to God.

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It is asking for their intercession. It is NOT worshipping them. You can continue to think so, but your opinion would be incorrect again.

Continue to suggest otherwise, when I and realitybites have explained otherwise (ad nauseum), is arrogant and ignorant.

We'll have to agree to disagree on intercession and continue with another topic.

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We don't need special authority to be able to read those passages and see that none of them contain anything explicit about saints in heaven being able to hear, read, or know our prayers in our minds. It's just honest and basic reading and comprehension. It's scriptural to do this - the Bereans analyzed Scripture for themselves this way.

It is shocking how much your mind is like someone in a cult - how you'll so easily abandon the evidence of your own eyes and mind when you read Scripture because someone in power above you told you that you don't have the capacity to do it for yourself, so you need them to interpret it for you, and you believe them wholly when they tell you something is there when it really isn't. This is exactly what those cult leaders do to brainwash their followers into really lurid things like sex, for example.

Maybe we can get you to see this for yourself, I don't know, but we should try - let's go through those verses, one by one, and you tell me how the "infallible" interpretation managed to get out of those verses that saints can hear, read, or know our prayers and that we should pray to them. Let's examine them like the Bereans with logic and reason.

Prayer is an act of worship. Even you don't believe that's what you're doing, it is what you're actually doing. Just like all what you do for Mary. Telling you the truth isn't "arrogance" and "ignorance". But it being an act of worship is only part of the problem here. You are engaging in a practice extrapolated from bad eisegesis which has no tie to original apostolic tradition (aka Scripture), and which even has pagan roots. Given all these, and the fact that the practice isn't even a salvivic issue, it would seem a lot more sensible and prudent to just abandon it.

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Finally, while I agree in praying to the Father on behalf of people who we hope the Lord will help, we do not pray to anyone but the Father. Trying to contact the dead, even with the veneer of good intentions, is a very dangerous thing to do.

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The phase "pray to" has been corrupted by modern English. Pray does NOT mean "worship". It means "to ask". Must like lawyers will use the phrase, "I pray the court ..."

As I mentioned earlier, we Catholic use the phrase, "ask for their intercession."

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Semantics doesn't solve the problem. The problem isn't that you're "asking". The problem is that you are "asking" by engaging in spiritual communication that is effectively conferring upon the one you're "asking" certain divine qualities that Scripture doesn't tell us departed saints have - only God has. I'm inviting you to prove from Scripture that this is wrong, not just by telling us the verse, but by explaining it to us with the "infallible" interpretation that you've been told.

And again, I'll ask in hope of finally getting an answer: you know God and Jesus are surely in heaven. How do you know the various saints you pray to are in heaven? By what divine revelation? You know from scripture that wondrous works in Jesus' name does not guarantee being in heaven when you die. So how can you pray to someone in heaven when you aren't sure if they are really there? Is St. Nicholas there? How do you know he didn't commit a mortal sin right before he died? How do you know he isn't still in Purgatory?

(*Edit add: Also, how do you know that these saints have "jurisdiction" over certain areas, so that when you have an issue in that area, that is the saint to go to? Who decided this? By what divine revelation? You do realize that this system was exactly the pagan god system of Rome before it got incorporated into Christianity in the 4th century, don't you? Doesn't this bother you in any way?)

Why not pray just to the one you KNOW is there, and who you KNOW can hear, read, and know your prayers in your heart?

Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Coke Bear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Where in this verse does it say that we are to pray to the dead Saints? Angels? It says that THEY pray for us. It DOES NOT say that WE are to pray to THEM. Also, what Bible verse are you using? Address? Not sure that is even Scripture.

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Once again, what by you do mean by "pray to THEM"?

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I mean talk to them as though they are able to answer prayers and ask them to pray for you.

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The saints cannot answer prayers. They take our prayers to God - God answers our prayers.

Revelation 8:3-4
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

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Again, you are using examples of ANGELS taking our prayers to God and equating that with praying to the Saints or asking them to pray for us. Not the same thing. Just having the term "Prayers of the Saints" in the verse doesn't prove that you should pray to them or ask the dead Saints to pray for you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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We don't need special authority to be able to read those passages and see that none of them contain anything explicit about saints in heaven being able to hear, read, or know our prayers in our minds. It's just honest and basic reading and comprehension. It's scriptural to do this - the Bereans analyzed Scripture for themselves this way.

It is shocking how much your mind is like someone in a cult - how you'll so easily abandon the evidence of your own eyes and mind when you read Scripture because someone in power above you told you that you don't have the capacity to do it for yourself, so you need them to interpret it for you, and you believe them wholly when they tell you something is there when it really isn't. This is exactly what those cult leaders do to brainwash their followers into really lurid things like sex, for example.

Maybe we can get you to see this for yourself, I don't know, but we should try - let's go through those verses, one by one, and you tell me how the "infallible" interpretation managed to get out of those verses that saints can hear, read, or know our prayers and that we should pray to them. Let's examine them like the Bereans with logic and reason.

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Revelation 8:3-4

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Do you really believe that the angels NOT know what they are doing? Do you believe that God can't share in his the ability to hear prayers? Are we not called to "share in his kingdom and glory"? 1 Thessalonians 2:12

Does 1 John 3:2 not tell us, "Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him"

Revelation 5:8 -
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

Who are the 24 elders? These elders are often interpreted as representing the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles, symbolizing the fullness of God's people, both Old and New Covenant.

It plainly states that the bowls of incense are the prayers of the saints (those of us on earth.)

Please tell me what you think that means.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Prayer is an act of worship. Even you don't believe that's what you're doing, it is what you're actually doing. Just like all what you do for Mary. Telling you the truth isn't "arrogance" and "ignorance". But it being an act of worship is only part of the problem here. You are engaging in a practice extrapolated from bad eisegesis which has no tie to original apostolic tradition (aka Scripture), and which even has pagan roots. Given all these, and the fact that the practice isn't even a salvivic issue, it would seem a lot more sensible and prudent to just abandon it.

---

As mentioned in Revelation, the saints and angels are aware of our prayers.

Also Shepard of Hermas affirms that angels can hear our prayers:

'But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?'" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandra:

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

I can also cite Origen - 230 AD, Cyprian of Carthage - 253 AD, Methodius - 305 AD, several others before the Council of Nicaea happened in 325 AD. The same council that denounced the Arian heresy and affirmed the divinity of Jesus and the original canon of scripture.

Why would the council not condemn the asking for intercession if it was so bad. Why has the Church performed this since the beginning, but there's NEVER been condemnation at ANY council?

Please find a historical source that proves your point.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Semantics doesn't solve the problem. The problem isn't that you're "asking". The problem is that you are "asking" by engaging in spiritual communication that is effectively conferring upon the one you're "asking" certain divine qualities that Scripture doesn't tell us departed saints have - only God has. I'm inviting you to prove from Scripture that this is wrong, not just by telling us the verse, but by explaining it to us with the "infallible" interpretation that you've been told.

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I've listed my explanation above, but you still haven't mentioned by what authority should we take your fallible interpretation.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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And again, I'll ask in hope of finally getting an answer: you know God and Jesus are surely in heaven. How do you know the various saints you pray to are in heaven? By what divine revelation? You know from scripture that wondrous works in Jesus' name does not guarantee being in heaven when you die. So how can you pray to someone in heaven when you aren't sure if they are really there? Is St. Nicholas there? How do you know he didn't commit a mortal sin right before he died? How do you know he isn't still in Purgatory?

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Many of the early Saints were "made" so by popular acclaim. The apostles, Church fathers, and holy men and women.

The Church also believes that anyone that is martyred for the faith goes to heaven - The first 30 or so Popes, the Christian martyrs like Facility and Perpetua, Ignatius of Antioch, etc.

Finally, today in order to be canonized in the Church, TWO miracles must be attributed to the direct intercession of that person such as Mother Teresa, John Paul II, and the venerable Arch Bishop Fulton Sheen.

These miracles have to be of divine origin and cannot have any other natural (medical treatment) cause.

They must be confirmed by independent medical experts that are completely outside the Church and most of whom are NOT Catholic.

Please explain why God would allow these miracles to happen when people are asking "dead people" to interceded for them. If the practice was SO forbidden, why would God allow these miracles to happen when we on earth are asking for these specific saints to intercede for us?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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(*Edit add: Also, how do you know that these saints have "jurisdiction" over certain areas, so that when you have an issue in that area, that is the saint to go to? Who decided this? By what divine revelation? You do realize that this system was exactly the pagan god system of Rome before it got incorporated into Christianity in the 4th century, don't you? Doesn't this bother you in any way?)

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Only God has ultimate "jurisdiction" over the world. Just like when I have a problem with my home A/C, I call my cousin, who has an HVAC business for assistance. When I have a problem with my car, I call my BIL who is an outstanding mechanic. I ask people with "experience" with a situation to help me.

We do the same with saints.

When I have a spiritual request, I ask someone in heaven for their intercession. When I ask for assistance as a husband or a father, I ask St Joseph, the most holiest human man and best earthly father ever to interceded for me.

When I am praying for my wife with help with her work as a teacher, I ask Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton to pray for her. I ask dozens of Saint to pray for me and my family and friends.

When I pray for my friends or family to come back to the Church, I ask Saint Monica (mother of St Augustine, who prayed daily 17 years for him to come to God) to intercede for them.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Why not pray just to the one you KNOW is there, and who you KNOW can hear, read, and know your prayers in your heart?

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We Catholics do go to the Trinity. We also enlist the holiest people to join with us in our requests.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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We don't need special authority to be able to read those passages and see that none of them contain anything explicit about saints in heaven being able to hear, read, or know our prayers in our minds. It's just honest and basic reading and comprehension. It's scriptural to do this - the Bereans analyzed Scripture for themselves this way.

It is shocking how much your mind is like someone in a cult - how you'll so easily abandon the evidence of your own eyes and mind when you read Scripture because someone in power above you told you that you don't have the capacity to do it for yourself, so you need them to interpret it for you, and you believe them wholly when they tell you something is there when it really isn't. This is exactly what those cult leaders do to brainwash their followers into really lurid things like sex, for example.

Maybe we can get you to see this for yourself, I don't know, but we should try - let's go through those verses, one by one, and you tell me how the "infallible" interpretation managed to get out of those verses that saints can hear, read, or know our prayers and that we should pray to them. Let's examine them like the Bereans with logic and reason.

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Revelation 8:3-4

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand.

Do you really believe that the angels NOT know what they are doing? Do you believe that God can't share in his the ability to hear prayers? Are we not called to "share in his kingdom and glory"? 1 Thessalonians 2:12

Does 1 John 3:2 not tell us, "Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him"

Revelation 5:8 -
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

Who are the 24 elders? These elders are often interpreted as representing the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles, symbolizing the fullness of God's people, both Old and New Covenant.

It plainly states that the bowls of incense are the prayers of the saints (those of us on earth.)

Please tell me what you think that means.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Prayer is an act of worship. Even you don't believe that's what you're doing, it is what you're actually doing. Just like all what you do for Mary. Telling you the truth isn't "arrogance" and "ignorance". But it being an act of worship is only part of the problem here. You are engaging in a practice extrapolated from bad eisegesis which has no tie to original apostolic tradition (aka Scripture), and which even has pagan roots. Given all these, and the fact that the practice isn't even a salvivic issue, it would seem a lot more sensible and prudent to just abandon it.

---

As mentioned in Revelation, the saints and angels are aware of our prayers.

Also Shepard of Hermas affirms that angels can hear our prayers:

'But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?'" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandra:

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

I can also cite Origen - 230 AD, Cyprian of Carthage - 253 AD, Methodius - 305 AD, several others before the Council of Nicaea happened in 325 AD. The same council that denounced the Arian heresy and affirmed the divinity of Jesus and the original canon of scripture.

Why would the council not condemn the asking for intercession if it was so bad. Why has the Church performed this since the beginning, but there's NEVER been condemnation at ANY council?

Please find a historical source that proves your point.

---

Okay, let's go through this one by one. First, your oft repeated verse:

"Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand."

1. Do you see that this is an ANGEL, and not a departed saint?

2. Do you see that this verse does not say that the prayers offered up at the altar were prayers TO THE ANGEL?

3. Question: if at a church, someone comes around the congregation and collects everyone's offering, and then takes the offering up to the front and "offers it up" to the pastor - do you see that this does not necessarily mean the person collecting knows the content of each of those offerings? Another example: if a mailman collects the mail from a neighborhood and "offers them up" to the main station to be delivered, do you not see that it doesn't mean the mailman knows what's in each mail?

Let's start there.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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1. Do you see that this is an ANGEL, and not a departed saint?

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You stated that the ANGELS and saints are not aware of our prayers. I demonstrated, biblically, that they are aware.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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2. Do you see that this verse does not say that the prayers offered up at the altar were prayers TO THE ANGEL?

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How did the angels get the prayers? Does God need the angels to bring Him his prayers? Does the verse state that the prayers weren't addressed to them?

David asked the angels of heaven to bless the Lord, this also was not offensive to God (Ps.103:2021) The angels heard this prayer.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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3. Question: if at a church, someone comes around the congregation and collects everyone's offering, and then takes the offering up to the front and "offers it up" to the pastor - do you see that this does not necessarily mean the person collecting knows the content of each of those offerings? Another example: if a mailman collects the mail from a neighborhood and "offers them up" to the main station to be delivered, do you not see that it doesn't mean the mailman knows what's in each mail?

---

Are you now equating human intellect to angelic intellect? These holy spirits share in the beatific vision. Their intellect FAR surpasses our own. They have observed humans since before the fall of man. They can see our actions, they know our mannerisms, they can read our expressions.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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1. Do you see that this is an ANGEL, and not a departed saint?

---

You stated that the ANGELS and saints are not aware of our prayers. I demonstrated, biblically, that they are aware.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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2. Do you see that this verse does not say that the prayers offered up at the altar were prayers TO THE ANGEL?

---

How did the angels get the prayers? Does God need the angels to bring Him his prayers? Does the verse state that the prayers weren't addressed to them?

David asked the angels of heaven to bless the Lord, this also was not offensive to God (Ps.103:2021) The angels heard this prayer.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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3. Question: if at a church, someone comes around the congregation and collects everyone's offering, and then takes the offering up to the front and "offers it up" to the pastor - do you see that this does not necessarily mean the person collecting knows the content of each of those offerings? Another example: if a mailman collects the mail from a neighborhood and "offers them up" to the main station to be delivered, do you not see that it doesn't mean the mailman knows what's in each mail?

---

Are you now equating human intellect to angelic intellect? These holy spirits share in the beatific vision. Their intellect FAR surpasses our own. They have observed humans since before the fall of man. They can see our actions, they know our mannerisms, they can read our expressions.

---

"You stated that the ANGELS and saints are not aware of our prayers. I demonstrated, biblically, that they are aware." - Umm, no, you haven't, at least not in this verse. The verse doesn't say that, as will be shown below.

"How did the angels get the prayers? Does God need the angels to bring Him his prayers?" - the verse merely states that he was GIVEN the prayers to offer up to God. It does not say that the angel collected the prayers himself by hearing/reading/reading minds or that the prayers were directed to him personally.

"Does the verse state that the prayers weren't addressed to them?" - so you're making the argument that because it does NOT say they weren't addressed to them, we can conclude that they were? You do realize this is a logical fallacy, don't you?

"Are you now equating human intellect to angelic intellect? These holy spirits share in the beatific vision. Their intellect FAR surpasses our own. They have observed humans since before the fall of man. They can see our actions, they know our mannerisms, they can read our expressions." - No, the argument is that logically you can't conclude that just because someone delivers something to someone else, that it necessarily means they know the contents, EVEN IF they have higher intellect. Notice that you said angels can read our actions, mannerisms, and expressions, but you didn't say they could read our minds. Angels are not *omniscient. The plain fact is that the verse does NOT indicate the angel is aware of the prayers, only that it was delivering them up to God. You are reading that into it using your assumptions about angelic intellectual capacity. But the bottom line, that isn't what the verse says. You are reading into it. EVEN IF you were to assume the angel were indeed aware of them, still, that itself does not indicate that the prayers were directed to the angel.

*Edit add: it's also important to note that in addition to not being omnisicient, neither are angels omnipresent. Therefore, without angelic omniscience and omnispresence, how can you be sure that the angel you are directing your prayer to is in the vicinity to begin with, in order that they be able to hear or read them? And if you are praying in your heart, how can they know your prayer without being omniscient? If you believe them to have these divine qualities that only God/Jesus is known to have, then isn't that idolatrous?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"You stated that the ANGELS and saints are not aware of our prayers. I demonstrated, biblically, that they are aware." - Umm, no, you haven't, at least not in this verse. The verse doesn't say that, as will be shown below.

"How did the angels get the prayers? Does God need the angels to bring Him his prayers?" - the verse merely states that he was GIVEN the prayers to offer up to God. It does not say that the angel collected the prayers himself by hearing/reading/reading minds or that the prayers were directed to him personally.

"Does the verse state that the prayers weren't addressed to them?" - so you're making the argument that because it does NOT say they weren't addressed to them, we can conclude that they were? You do realize this is a logical fallacy, don't you?

"Are you now equating human intellect to angelic intellect? These holy spirits share in the beatific vision. Their intellect FAR surpasses our own. They have observed humans since before the fall of man. They can see our actions, they know our mannerisms, they can read our expressions." - No, the argument is that logically you can't conclude that just because someone delivers something to someone else, that it necessarily means they know the contents, EVEN IF they have higher intellect. Notice that you said angels can read our actions, mannerisms, and expressions, but you didn't say they could read our minds. Angels are not *omniscient. The plain fact is that the verse does NOT indicate the angel is aware of the prayers, only that it was delivering them up to God. You are reading that into it using your assumptions about angelic intellectual capacity. But the bottom line, that isn't what the verse says. You are reading into it. EVEN IF you were to assume the angel were indeed aware of them, still, that itself does not indicate that the prayers were directed to the angel.

---

You have a ride on this assumption train yourself. You are also trying to interpret scripture using only one passage rather than looking at it as a whole. This myopic view does not allow some to better understand the bible.

The bible states that in other passages that I've mentioned that the angels are aware of our prayers and the know what's happening on earth. PS 103:20-21, Rel. 11:1518, 16:56, 18:20.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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*Edit add: it's also important to note that in addition to not being omnisicient, neither are angels omnipresent. Therefore, without angelic omniscience and omnispresence, how can you be sure that the angel you are directing your prayer to is in the vicinity to begin with, in order that they be able to hear or read them? And if you are praying in your heart, how can they know your prayer without being omniscient? If you believe them to have these divine qualities that only God/Jesus is known to have, then isn't that idolatrous?

---

The angel are NOT omniscience, like having ALL knowledge. Angels do NOT "need to know the location of every atom in the observable universe". They don't "need to know the 100 trillion digits of pi that have been calculated so far." Their "knowledge would be a tiny fraction of what God knows about the physical universe."

They only need to know what God allows them to know. Luke 1:37 says that with God nothing is impossible.

They don't need to be omnipresent. They don't have to be "n the vicinity". They are spiritual beings. They don't have bodies. They don't have ears. God can allow them to "hear" what he wants.

Please show me where it says that that saints and angels CANNOT hear prayers.

Please explain to me how God has allowed miracles to happen when we've requested intercession from a specific saint.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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"You stated that the ANGELS and saints are not aware of our prayers. I demonstrated, biblically, that they are aware." - Umm, no, you haven't, at least not in this verse. The verse doesn't say that, as will be shown below.

"How did the angels get the prayers? Does God need the angels to bring Him his prayers?" - the verse merely states that he was GIVEN the prayers to offer up to God. It does not say that the angel collected the prayers himself by hearing/reading/reading minds or that the prayers were directed to him personally.

"Does the verse state that the prayers weren't addressed to them?" - so you're making the argument that because it does NOT say they weren't addressed to them, we can conclude that they were? You do realize this is a logical fallacy, don't you?

"Are you now equating human intellect to angelic intellect? These holy spirits share in the beatific vision. Their intellect FAR surpasses our own. They have observed humans since before the fall of man. They can see our actions, they know our mannerisms, they can read our expressions." - No, the argument is that logically you can't conclude that just because someone delivers something to someone else, that it necessarily means they know the contents, EVEN IF they have higher intellect. Notice that you said angels can read our actions, mannerisms, and expressions, but you didn't say they could read our minds. Angels are not *omniscient. The plain fact is that the verse does NOT indicate the angel is aware of the prayers, only that it was delivering them up to God. You are reading that into it using your assumptions about angelic intellectual capacity. But the bottom line, that isn't what the verse says. You are reading into it. EVEN IF you were to assume the angel were indeed aware of them, still, that itself does not indicate that the prayers were directed to the angel.

---

You have a ride on this assumption train yourself. You are also trying to interpret scripture using only one passage rather than looking at it as a whole. This myopic view does not allow some to better understand the bible.

The bible states that in other passages that I've mentioned that the angels are aware of our prayers and the know what's happening on earth. PS 103:20-21, Rel. 11:1518, 16:56, 18:20.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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*Edit add: it's also important to note that in addition to not being omnisicient, neither are angels omnipresent. Therefore, without angelic omniscience and omnispresence, how can you be sure that the angel you are directing your prayer to is in the vicinity to begin with, in order that they be able to hear or read them? And if you are praying in your heart, how can they know your prayer without being omniscient? If you believe them to have these divine qualities that only God/Jesus is known to have, then isn't that idolatrous?

---

The angel are NOT omniscience, like having ALL knowledge. Angels do NOT "need to know the location of every atom in the observable universe". They don't "need to know the 100 trillion digits of pi that have been calculated so far." Their "knowledge would be a tiny fraction of what God knows about the physical universe."

They only need to know what God allows them to know. Luke 1:37 says that with God nothing is impossible.

They don't need to be omnipresent. They don't have to be "n the vicinity". They are spiritual beings. They don't have bodies. They don't have ears. God can allow them to "hear" what he wants.

Please show me where it says that that saints and angels CANNOT hear prayers.

Please explain to me how God has allowed miracles to happen when we've requested intercession from a specific saint.

---

"You have a ride on this assumption train yourself. You are also trying to interpret scripture using only one passage rather than looking at it as a whole. This myopic view does not allow some to better understand the bible."

I specifically told you that I want to go through these verses one at a time. This isn't "myopia", this is focus. This verse is your leading verse that you had oft repeated in support of your claim. You now seem to have conceded that this verse does NOT actually say what you claim it says. Is that right? Let's stay focused on this point, on this one specific verse. I can address any other point you want, but this has got to be first, so that we can actually make some ground instead of just talk past each other with shotgun posts. I'm really asking for intellectual honesty from you at this point, not defense mechanisms - from the standpoint of this one verse, do you agree that it can not be concluded that angels or saints know our prayers, or that the prayers were directed to them? That it is something that has to be read into it? If so, then let's move on to your other verses. If not, then explain your argument as to why I'm wrong.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I specifically told you that I want to go through these verses one at a time. This isn't "myopia", this is focus. This verse is your leading verse that you had oft repeated in support of your claim. You now seem to have conceded that this verse does NOT actually say what you claim it says. Is that right? Let's stay focused on this point, on this one specific verse. I can address any other point you want, but this has got to be first, so that we can actually make some ground instead of just talk past each other with shotgun posts. I'm really asking for intellectual honesty from you at this point, not defense mechanisms - from the standpoint of this one verse, do you agree that it can not be concluded that angels or saints know our prayers, or that the prayers were directed to them? That it is something that has to be read into it? If so, then let's move on to your other verses. If not, then explain your argument as to why I'm wrong.

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Fair enough, we can look at it one at a time.

"Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God's people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God's people, went up before God from the angel's hand."

I see that the angel here is aware of the prayers of the faithful.

If the prayers were addressed to the angels, why do they bring them to God? If they were addressed alone to God, wouldn't they go directly to him? Are you implying that God has to have angels bring our prayers to him? You'll need to find verses that support that.

Does the passage state that the prayers are sealed in a "collection or mailed envelop? Does the passage directly state that the angels are oblivious to the content of the prayers. It doesn't.

Logically, an angelic being, part of the heavenly body of Christ, would have abilities that are beyond the earthly realm.

I argue that the angel does know what the prayers are.

I've discussed that the angels don't need to be "omniscience and omnipresent".