I genuinely don’t understand how the politics of red states are more progressive on housing issues than blue states.

Explain to me like I’m 5. https://t.co/yv1CkMwqkf

— Cat Vielma (@catvielma) June 26, 2025

What exactly are parking minimums?

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

What exactly are parking minimums?

---

You're only allowed to own Smart Cars?

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

What exactly are parking minimums?

---

It means they can now have an apartment complex with 100 units and 4 parking spaces rather than 400.

Like most well meaning legislation this is a good example of beware the law of unintended consequences.

Prior to this you had to have X number of spaces depending on the size of the building and land use. That can lead to too much parking in a lot of instances. Think every commercial parking lot you've ever been in that was 80% empty.

It's actually the very classic consulting question of "how many train cars does the NYC subway need".

BREAKING: Texas has banned China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea from buying land in their state.

— Leading Report (@LeadingReport) June 27, 2025

boognish_bear said:

---

BREAKING: Texas has banned China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea from buying land in their state.

— Leading Report (@LeadingReport) June 27, 2025

---

Sharing this to the Texas Politics thread. Thanks

It's housing, housing, housing. Nothing else matters.

That's the issue. Middle class is doing better than ever in terms of income/wage growth, but housing is crushing people. We need to build millions more homes and drive housing prices down. https://t.co/sLoXeUzT0C

— Tweets from Zach Weinberg (@zachweinberg) June 28, 2025

U.S. Housing Market has reached its most unaffordable level in history 🚨🚨 pic.twitter.com/KqBbG5Dpmw

— Barchart (@Barchart) July 3, 2025

MAINE OFFICIALLY LEGALIZES *3* HOMES ON EVERY RESIDENTIAL LOT STATEWIDE!!!

Look how hard Maine cooked 🤯
- 3 units legal statewide
- 4 units legal in “growth areas”
- ADUs no longer limited to SFH lots
- Lowered min lot size to 5,000 in all cities pic.twitter.com/wcrerLgZ9R

— YIMBYLAND (@YIMBYLAND) July 3, 2025

Sweet now your neighbor can hear you fart. What a wonderful upgrade

nein51 said:

---

Sweet now your neighbor can hear you fart. What a wonderful upgrade

---

lol true

It's also a building concept more needed in places like the bay area of California or Seattle (high housing costs and large pop.) than in low pop. and largely rural Maine

So I haven't posted in this thread since it started but have had a few thoughts recently as the wife and I have been looking at major purchases (car and house).

I'm not reading through 18 pages to see if this has all been discussed before so sorry if it had but:


It isn't just housing young people can't afford. It is cars as well. They pretty much have to buy a car in most areas to get to/from work because public transportation doesn't cut it. Even "cheap" cars are not cheap anymore. We have looked at both used and new. I know so much depends on trim level, model, etc. but man some of the new ones we looked at (larger SUV for growing family) are almost 100K. We have a family friend that needed their first car after college. They had very little to put down so their payments were going to be higher. They didn't have a long credit history (only 4 years) but had really high credit. But the lowest APR they could find was 6.99%.

That is crazy high to me. I've never had higher than 3.99%.

Prices for cars just seem way inflated as well (even before the tariff issue). We started looking a little in the fall sort of as a we knew within a year or so we would need a new car and even then prices seemed high.

They bought a used one and are making payments on that but with loans and rent they are not able to save much. He did the math and by the time he has the down payment for a house he would be 38 unless he gets significant raises or finds higher paying jobs as he gets experience.

And I hate car shopping, the games, the hidden fees, the price being listed is misleading, discounts not being clear, etc.

cowboycwr said:

---

So I haven't posted in this thread since it started but have had a few thoughts recently as the wife and I have been looking at major purchases (car and house).

I'm not reading through 18 pages to see if this has all been discussed before so sorry if it had but:


It isn't just housing young people can't afford. It is cars as well. They pretty much have to buy a car in most areas to get to/from work because public transportation doesn't cut it. Even "cheap" cars are not cheap anymore. We have looked at both used and new. I know so much depends on trim level, model, etc. but man some of the new ones we looked at (larger SUV for growing family) are almost 100K. We have a family friend that needed their first car after college. They had very little to put down so their payments were going to be higher. They didn't have a long credit history (only 4 years) but had really high credit. But the lowest APR they could find was 6.99%.

That is crazy high to me. I've never had higher than 3.99%.

Prices for cars just seem way inflated as well (even before the tariff issue). We started looking a little in the fall sort of as a we knew within a year or so we would need a new car and even then prices seemed high.

They bought a used one and are making payments on that but with loans and rent they are not able to save much. He did the math and by the time he has the down payment for a house he would be 38 unless he gets significant raises or finds higher paying jobs as he gets experience.

And I hate car shopping, the games, the hidden fees, the price being listed is misleading, discounts not being clear, etc.

---

I've got 2 kids in college that will be entering the "real world" soon and i definitely worry about everything you mentioned above for them. It's really tough out there for young people right now.

Car buying is horrible right now. I've had to go through it 4 times since Covid either helping my kids or getting my own. I am used to all of the typical tricks and don't mind getting in the mud wrestling over price.

I've always been pretty good about getting dealers to come down on the advertised price of used cars. Post covid...it's a different playing field. I could not get any dealer to budge on price. Walked out of numerous dealerships. You are now lucky if you can "negotiate" to not pay more than the advertised price.

I learned to look at the fine print on websites. Anywhere from $300 to $400 "documentation fee" added to a used car price is fine. Anything beyond that is BS and they do it all the time. If I saw on the website that they added a hidden $700 reconditioning fee or whatever else they wanted to call it that wasn't part of the advertised price I would tell them before we even got started that I wasn't paying that and if they couldn't take it off we were done.

Through countless hours and hours of time I was able to find some dealerships that did not tack on all the extra fees. But those are the exceptions sadly. They are mostly all sharks. You've got to keep your eye on your wallet the whole time.

I was a cash buyer so I know that hurt me some because they knew they couldn't also make extra money off financing with me.

I know Carmax overprices their vehicles… but the one nice thing is you know exactly what the price is and they seem by and large to have better quality used vehicles than your average dealership.

boognish_bear said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

So I haven't posted in this thread since it started but have had a few thoughts recently as the wife and I have been looking at major purchases (car and house).

I'm not reading through 18 pages to see if this has all been discussed before so sorry if it had but:


It isn't just housing young people can't afford. It is cars as well. They pretty much have to buy a car in most areas to get to/from work because public transportation doesn't cut it. Even "cheap" cars are not cheap anymore. We have looked at both used and new. I know so much depends on trim level, model, etc. but man some of the new ones we looked at (larger SUV for growing family) are almost 100K. We have a family friend that needed their first car after college. They had very little to put down so their payments were going to be higher. They didn't have a long credit history (only 4 years) but had really high credit. But the lowest APR they could find was 6.99%.

That is crazy high to me. I've never had higher than 3.99%.

Prices for cars just seem way inflated as well (even before the tariff issue). We started looking a little in the fall sort of as a we knew within a year or so we would need a new car and even then prices seemed high.

They bought a used one and are making payments on that but with loans and rent they are not able to save much. He did the math and by the time he has the down payment for a house he would be 38 unless he gets significant raises or finds higher paying jobs as he gets experience.

And I hate car shopping, the games, the hidden fees, the price being listed is misleading, discounts not being clear, etc.

---

I've got 2 kids in college that will be entering the "real world" soon and i definitely worry about everything you mentioned above for them. It's really tough out there for young people right now.

Car buying is horrible right now. I've had to go through it 4 times since Covid either helping my kids or getting my own. I am used to all of the typical tricks and don't mind getting in the mud wrestling over price.

I've always been pretty good about getting dealers to come down on the advertised price of used cars. Post covid...it's a different playing field. I could not get any dealer to budge on price. Walked out of numerous dealerships. You are now lucky if you can "negotiate" to not pay more than the advertised price.

I learned to look at the fine print on websites. Anywhere from $300 to $400 "documentation fee" added to a used car price is fine. Anything beyond that is BS and they do it all the time. If I saw on the website that they added a hidden $700 reconditioning fee or whatever else they wanted to call it that wasn't part of the advertised price I would tell them before we even got started that I wasn't paying that and if they couldn't take it off we were done.

Through countless hours and hours of time I was able to find some dealerships that did not tack on all the extra fees. But those are the exceptions sadly. They are mostly all sharks. You've got to keep your eye on your wallet the whole time.

I was a cash buyer so I know that hurt me some because they knew they couldn't also make extra money off financing with me.

I know Carmax overprices their vehicles… but the one nice thing is you know exactly what the price is and they seem by and large to have better quality used vehicles than your average dealership.

---

CarMax is the worst. I would never buy there. We looked there and they would not go below 8.99% APR. we both have credit scores in the 820s. We walked out and will never go back.

We went to another dealer that started to show us a used expedition. We had just gone the day before to the dealer across the street and looked at new ones (probably where we will buy from soon). The used one was a top of the line trim but was 3 years old with almost 100,000 miles on it. But it was also $15,000 more than the new one with lower trim. We pointed that out and even showed them the quote we still had printed out in the car. They tried some salesman talk about how their cars are certified preowned, the market, blah blah blah. Then they also quoted us less for our trade in than the place across the street. We walked.

We did end up selling to carvana. They gave us way more than anyone else.

I just can't imagine what it is like for young people with short credit history, not much saved up but needing to buy a car. There just don't seem to be any good options right now. Rates seemed high and prices seem inflated. Then if they do go used and need repairs done a lot that eats up their savings and they can't save for a house. I know this was sort of my problem a long time ago. Every time I saved up something happened like a job loss, medical expenses, etc. that ate up savings and suddenly my house down payment was cut in half and I was set back several years.

I generally don't like buying used at all. I know value drops on a new vehicle the second you drive off but growing up and in adult life I have either experienced my family getting burned on used (even certified ones) or friends getting burned. Meanwhile I have always felt the new is the way to go because the issues I have had were warranty things.

cowboycwr said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

So I haven't posted in this thread since it started but have had a few thoughts recently as the wife and I have been looking at major purchases (car and house).

I'm not reading through 18 pages to see if this has all been discussed before so sorry if it had but:


It isn't just housing young people can't afford. It is cars as well. They pretty much have to buy a car in most areas to get to/from work because public transportation doesn't cut it. Even "cheap" cars are not cheap anymore. We have looked at both used and new. I know so much depends on trim level, model, etc. but man some of the new ones we looked at (larger SUV for growing family) are almost 100K. We have a family friend that needed their first car after college. They had very little to put down so their payments were going to be higher. They didn't have a long credit history (only 4 years) but had really high credit. But the lowest APR they could find was 6.99%.

That is crazy high to me. I've never had higher than 3.99%.

Prices for cars just seem way inflated as well (even before the tariff issue). We started looking a little in the fall sort of as a we knew within a year or so we would need a new car and even then prices seemed high.

They bought a used one and are making payments on that but with loans and rent they are not able to save much. He did the math and by the time he has the down payment for a house he would be 38 unless he gets significant raises or finds higher paying jobs as he gets experience.

And I hate car shopping, the games, the hidden fees, the price being listed is misleading, discounts not being clear, etc.

---

I've got 2 kids in college that will be entering the "real world" soon and i definitely worry about everything you mentioned above for them. It's really tough out there for young people right now.

Car buying is horrible right now. I've had to go through it 4 times since Covid either helping my kids or getting my own. I am used to all of the typical tricks and don't mind getting in the mud wrestling over price.

I've always been pretty good about getting dealers to come down on the advertised price of used cars. Post covid...it's a different playing field. I could not get any dealer to budge on price. Walked out of numerous dealerships. You are now lucky if you can "negotiate" to not pay more than the advertised price.

I learned to look at the fine print on websites. Anywhere from $300 to $400 "documentation fee" added to a used car price is fine. Anything beyond that is BS and they do it all the time. If I saw on the website that they added a hidden $700 reconditioning fee or whatever else they wanted to call it that wasn't part of the advertised price I would tell them before we even got started that I wasn't paying that and if they couldn't take it off we were done.

Through countless hours and hours of time I was able to find some dealerships that did not tack on all the extra fees. But those are the exceptions sadly. They are mostly all sharks. You've got to keep your eye on your wallet the whole time.

I was a cash buyer so I know that hurt me some because they knew they couldn't also make extra money off financing with me.

I know Carmax overprices their vehicles… but the one nice thing is you know exactly what the price is and they seem by and large to have better quality used vehicles than your average dealership.

---

CarMax is the worst. I would never buy there. We looked there and they would not go below 8.99% APR. we both have credit scores in the 820s. We walked out and will never go back.

We went to another dealer that started to show us a used expedition. We had just gone the day before to the dealer across the street and looked at new ones (probably where we will buy from soon). The used one was a top of the line trim but was 3 years old with almost 100,000 miles on it. But it was also $15,000 more than the new one with lower trim. We pointed that out and even showed them the quote we still had printed out in the car. They tried some salesman talk about how their cars are certified preowned, the market, blah blah blah. Then they also quoted us less for our trade in than the place across the street. We walked.

We did end up selling to carvana. They gave us way more than anyone else.

I just can't imagine what it is like for young people with short credit history, not much saved up but needing to buy a car. There just don't seem to be any good options right now. Rates seemed high and prices seem inflated. Then if they do go used and need repairs done a lot that eats up their savings and they can't save for a house. I know this was sort of my problem a long time ago. Every time I saved up something happened like a job loss, medical expenses, etc. that ate up savings and suddenly my house down payment was cut in half and I was set back several years.

I generally don't like buying used at all. I know value drops on a new vehicle the second you drive off but growing up and in adult life I have either experienced my family getting burned on used (even certified ones) or friends getting burned. Meanwhile I have always felt the new is the way to go because the issues I have had were warranty things.

---

I just bought a 2023 Kia Soul from Mesquite Kia. There was the published price but the actual price after haggleing on trading in my Sportage and my down payment, agreeing to an amount, then it ended up being about $2k more. They added in all sorts of stuff like saying that LoJack equipment went on every car they sold, charging me for a year of it, a tire program that they insisted had to be purchased on every car they sold and so forth.

Assassin said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

So I haven't posted in this thread since it started but have had a few thoughts recently as the wife and I have been looking at major purchases (car and house).

I'm not reading through 18 pages to see if this has all been discussed before so sorry if it had but:


It isn't just housing young people can't afford. It is cars as well. They pretty much have to buy a car in most areas to get to/from work because public transportation doesn't cut it. Even "cheap" cars are not cheap anymore. We have looked at both used and new. I know so much depends on trim level, model, etc. but man some of the new ones we looked at (larger SUV for growing family) are almost 100K. We have a family friend that needed their first car after college. They had very little to put down so their payments were going to be higher. They didn't have a long credit history (only 4 years) but had really high credit. But the lowest APR they could find was 6.99%.

That is crazy high to me. I've never had higher than 3.99%.

Prices for cars just seem way inflated as well (even before the tariff issue). We started looking a little in the fall sort of as a we knew within a year or so we would need a new car and even then prices seemed high.

They bought a used one and are making payments on that but with loans and rent they are not able to save much. He did the math and by the time he has the down payment for a house he would be 38 unless he gets significant raises or finds higher paying jobs as he gets experience.

And I hate car shopping, the games, the hidden fees, the price being listed is misleading, discounts not being clear, etc.

---

I've got 2 kids in college that will be entering the "real world" soon and i definitely worry about everything you mentioned above for them. It's really tough out there for young people right now.

Car buying is horrible right now. I've had to go through it 4 times since Covid either helping my kids or getting my own. I am used to all of the typical tricks and don't mind getting in the mud wrestling over price.

I've always been pretty good about getting dealers to come down on the advertised price of used cars. Post covid...it's a different playing field. I could not get any dealer to budge on price. Walked out of numerous dealerships. You are now lucky if you can "negotiate" to not pay more than the advertised price.

I learned to look at the fine print on websites. Anywhere from $300 to $400 "documentation fee" added to a used car price is fine. Anything beyond that is BS and they do it all the time. If I saw on the website that they added a hidden $700 reconditioning fee or whatever else they wanted to call it that wasn't part of the advertised price I would tell them before we even got started that I wasn't paying that and if they couldn't take it off we were done.

Through countless hours and hours of time I was able to find some dealerships that did not tack on all the extra fees. But those are the exceptions sadly. They are mostly all sharks. You've got to keep your eye on your wallet the whole time.

I was a cash buyer so I know that hurt me some because they knew they couldn't also make extra money off financing with me.

I know Carmax overprices their vehicles… but the one nice thing is you know exactly what the price is and they seem by and large to have better quality used vehicles than your average dealership.

---

CarMax is the worst. I would never buy there. We looked there and they would not go below 8.99% APR. we both have credit scores in the 820s. We walked out and will never go back.

We went to another dealer that started to show us a used expedition. We had just gone the day before to the dealer across the street and looked at new ones (probably where we will buy from soon). The used one was a top of the line trim but was 3 years old with almost 100,000 miles on it. But it was also $15,000 more than the new one with lower trim. We pointed that out and even showed them the quote we still had printed out in the car. They tried some salesman talk about how their cars are certified preowned, the market, blah blah blah. Then they also quoted us less for our trade in than the place across the street. We walked.

We did end up selling to carvana. They gave us way more than anyone else.

I just can't imagine what it is like for young people with short credit history, not much saved up but needing to buy a car. There just don't seem to be any good options right now. Rates seemed high and prices seem inflated. Then if they do go used and need repairs done a lot that eats up their savings and they can't save for a house. I know this was sort of my problem a long time ago. Every time I saved up something happened like a job loss, medical expenses, etc. that ate up savings and suddenly my house down payment was cut in half and I was set back several years.

I generally don't like buying used at all. I know value drops on a new vehicle the second you drive off but growing up and in adult life I have either experienced my family getting burned on used (even certified ones) or friends getting burned. Meanwhile I have always felt the new is the way to go because the issues I have had were warranty things.

---

I just bought a 2023 Kia Soul from Mesquite Kia. There was the published price but the actual price after haggleing on trading in my Sportage and my down payment, agreeing to an amount, then it ended up being about $2k more. They added in all sorts of stuff like saying that LoJack equipment went on every car they sold, charging me for a year of it, a tire program that they insisted had to be purchased on every car they sold and so forth.

---

Yep...that's what they do...and they must normally get away with it.

I write down all my figures ahead of time before walking in...advertised price, doc fee, TT&L. So I know exactly what the price should be so I don't get "lost in the numbers" when they start all of their shell game nonsense.

I'm even shocked it's as high as 77%. The whole process is a major kick in the ball sack.

Consumer sentiment around the car buying process just saw its sharpest drop in 3 years:

The percentage of consumers who though car buying was easy in June was 77%—down from 90% in May.

The culprits include…

- Agreeing on final price: -9%
- Agreeing on trade-in value: -7%
-…

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) July 3, 2025

boognish_bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

So I haven't posted in this thread since it started but have had a few thoughts recently as the wife and I have been looking at major purchases (car and house).

I'm not reading through 18 pages to see if this has all been discussed before so sorry if it had but:


It isn't just housing young people can't afford. It is cars as well. They pretty much have to buy a car in most areas to get to/from work because public transportation doesn't cut it. Even "cheap" cars are not cheap anymore. We have looked at both used and new. I know so much depends on trim level, model, etc. but man some of the new ones we looked at (larger SUV for growing family) are almost 100K. We have a family friend that needed their first car after college. They had very little to put down so their payments were going to be higher. They didn't have a long credit history (only 4 years) but had really high credit. But the lowest APR they could find was 6.99%.

That is crazy high to me. I've never had higher than 3.99%.

Prices for cars just seem way inflated as well (even before the tariff issue). We started looking a little in the fall sort of as a we knew within a year or so we would need a new car and even then prices seemed high.

They bought a used one and are making payments on that but with loans and rent they are not able to save much. He did the math and by the time he has the down payment for a house he would be 38 unless he gets significant raises or finds higher paying jobs as he gets experience.

And I hate car shopping, the games, the hidden fees, the price being listed is misleading, discounts not being clear, etc.

---

I've got 2 kids in college that will be entering the "real world" soon and i definitely worry about everything you mentioned above for them. It's really tough out there for young people right now.

Car buying is horrible right now. I've had to go through it 4 times since Covid either helping my kids or getting my own. I am used to all of the typical tricks and don't mind getting in the mud wrestling over price.

I've always been pretty good about getting dealers to come down on the advertised price of used cars. Post covid...it's a different playing field. I could not get any dealer to budge on price. Walked out of numerous dealerships. You are now lucky if you can "negotiate" to not pay more than the advertised price.

I learned to look at the fine print on websites. Anywhere from $300 to $400 "documentation fee" added to a used car price is fine. Anything beyond that is BS and they do it all the time. If I saw on the website that they added a hidden $700 reconditioning fee or whatever else they wanted to call it that wasn't part of the advertised price I would tell them before we even got started that I wasn't paying that and if they couldn't take it off we were done.

Through countless hours and hours of time I was able to find some dealerships that did not tack on all the extra fees. But those are the exceptions sadly. They are mostly all sharks. You've got to keep your eye on your wallet the whole time.

I was a cash buyer so I know that hurt me some because they knew they couldn't also make extra money off financing with me.

I know Carmax overprices their vehicles… but the one nice thing is you know exactly what the price is and they seem by and large to have better quality used vehicles than your average dealership.

---

CarMax is the worst. I would never buy there. We looked there and they would not go below 8.99% APR. we both have credit scores in the 820s. We walked out and will never go back.

We went to another dealer that started to show us a used expedition. We had just gone the day before to the dealer across the street and looked at new ones (probably where we will buy from soon). The used one was a top of the line trim but was 3 years old with almost 100,000 miles on it. But it was also $15,000 more than the new one with lower trim. We pointed that out and even showed them the quote we still had printed out in the car. They tried some salesman talk about how their cars are certified preowned, the market, blah blah blah. Then they also quoted us less for our trade in than the place across the street. We walked.

We did end up selling to carvana. They gave us way more than anyone else.

I just can't imagine what it is like for young people with short credit history, not much saved up but needing to buy a car. There just don't seem to be any good options right now. Rates seemed high and prices seem inflated. Then if they do go used and need repairs done a lot that eats up their savings and they can't save for a house. I know this was sort of my problem a long time ago. Every time I saved up something happened like a job loss, medical expenses, etc. that ate up savings and suddenly my house down payment was cut in half and I was set back several years.

I generally don't like buying used at all. I know value drops on a new vehicle the second you drive off but growing up and in adult life I have either experienced my family getting burned on used (even certified ones) or friends getting burned. Meanwhile I have always felt the new is the way to go because the issues I have had were warranty things.

---

I just bought a 2023 Kia Soul from Mesquite Kia. There was the published price but the actual price after haggleing on trading in my Sportage and my down payment, agreeing to an amount, then it ended up being about $2k more. They added in all sorts of stuff like saying that LoJack equipment went on every car they sold, charging me for a year of it, a tire program that they insisted had to be purchased on every car they sold and so forth.

---

Yep...that's what they do...and they must normally get away with it.

I right down all my figures ahead of time before walking in...advertised price, doc fee, TT&L. So I know exactly what the price should be so I don't get "lost in the numbers" when they start all of their shell game nonsense.

---

I probably wouldnt have gone through with it but my Sportage needed $17,000 worth of work on it that SW Kia found a couple of days before. Guess Mesquite Kia didn't pull that up when it came time for trade in

Assassin said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Assassin said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

So I haven't posted in this thread since it started but have had a few thoughts recently as the wife and I have been looking at major purchases (car and house).

I'm not reading through 18 pages to see if this has all been discussed before so sorry if it had but:


It isn't just housing young people can't afford. It is cars as well. They pretty much have to buy a car in most areas to get to/from work because public transportation doesn't cut it. Even "cheap" cars are not cheap anymore. We have looked at both used and new. I know so much depends on trim level, model, etc. but man some of the new ones we looked at (larger SUV for growing family) are almost 100K. We have a family friend that needed their first car after college. They had very little to put down so their payments were going to be higher. They didn't have a long credit history (only 4 years) but had really high credit. But the lowest APR they could find was 6.99%.

That is crazy high to me. I've never had higher than 3.99%.

Prices for cars just seem way inflated as well (even before the tariff issue). We started looking a little in the fall sort of as a we knew within a year or so we would need a new car and even then prices seemed high.

They bought a used one and are making payments on that but with loans and rent they are not able to save much. He did the math and by the time he has the down payment for a house he would be 38 unless he gets significant raises or finds higher paying jobs as he gets experience.

And I hate car shopping, the games, the hidden fees, the price being listed is misleading, discounts not being clear, etc.

---

I've got 2 kids in college that will be entering the "real world" soon and i definitely worry about everything you mentioned above for them. It's really tough out there for young people right now.

Car buying is horrible right now. I've had to go through it 4 times since Covid either helping my kids or getting my own. I am used to all of the typical tricks and don't mind getting in the mud wrestling over price.

I've always been pretty good about getting dealers to come down on the advertised price of used cars. Post covid...it's a different playing field. I could not get any dealer to budge on price. Walked out of numerous dealerships. You are now lucky if you can "negotiate" to not pay more than the advertised price.

I learned to look at the fine print on websites. Anywhere from $300 to $400 "documentation fee" added to a used car price is fine. Anything beyond that is BS and they do it all the time. If I saw on the website that they added a hidden $700 reconditioning fee or whatever else they wanted to call it that wasn't part of the advertised price I would tell them before we even got started that I wasn't paying that and if they couldn't take it off we were done.

Through countless hours and hours of time I was able to find some dealerships that did not tack on all the extra fees. But those are the exceptions sadly. They are mostly all sharks. You've got to keep your eye on your wallet the whole time.

I was a cash buyer so I know that hurt me some because they knew they couldn't also make extra money off financing with me.

I know Carmax overprices their vehicles… but the one nice thing is you know exactly what the price is and they seem by and large to have better quality used vehicles than your average dealership.

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CarMax is the worst. I would never buy there. We looked there and they would not go below 8.99% APR. we both have credit scores in the 820s. We walked out and will never go back.

We went to another dealer that started to show us a used expedition. We had just gone the day before to the dealer across the street and looked at new ones (probably where we will buy from soon). The used one was a top of the line trim but was 3 years old with almost 100,000 miles on it. But it was also $15,000 more than the new one with lower trim. We pointed that out and even showed them the quote we still had printed out in the car. They tried some salesman talk about how their cars are certified preowned, the market, blah blah blah. Then they also quoted us less for our trade in than the place across the street. We walked.

We did end up selling to carvana. They gave us way more than anyone else.

I just can't imagine what it is like for young people with short credit history, not much saved up but needing to buy a car. There just don't seem to be any good options right now. Rates seemed high and prices seem inflated. Then if they do go used and need repairs done a lot that eats up their savings and they can't save for a house. I know this was sort of my problem a long time ago. Every time I saved up something happened like a job loss, medical expenses, etc. that ate up savings and suddenly my house down payment was cut in half and I was set back several years.

I generally don't like buying used at all. I know value drops on a new vehicle the second you drive off but growing up and in adult life I have either experienced my family getting burned on used (even certified ones) or friends getting burned. Meanwhile I have always felt the new is the way to go because the issues I have had were warranty things.

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I just bought a 2023 Kia Soul from Mesquite Kia. There was the published price but the actual price after haggleing on trading in my Sportage and my down payment, agreeing to an amount, then it ended up being about $2k more. They added in all sorts of stuff like saying that LoJack equipment went on every car they sold, charging me for a year of it, a tire program that they insisted had to be purchased on every car they sold and so forth.

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Yep...that's what they do...and they must normally get away with it.

I right down all my figures ahead of time before walking in...advertised price, doc fee, TT&L. So I know exactly what the price should be so I don't get "lost in the numbers" when they start all of their shell game nonsense.

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I probably wouldnt have gone through with it but my Sportage needed $17,000 worth of work on it that SW Kia found a couple of days before. Guess Mesquite Kia didn't pull that up when it came time for trade in

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Reversing the whip

All I see the last 30 or so responses is people that are young and got a little spoiled on near 0 interest rates. In 1980 new car loans were around the 15% mark.

At current we are about 1% over the average in 2018 and about 1% over the average in 2008 and about 2% over nearly the entire 20 year time frame.

The difference in 1% of interest is $4/mo per $10,000 financed.

Same trend in home buying. A 6.75% interest rate on a mortgage is, historically, a great rate. We just had a 3-5 year dip that is anomalous.

nein51 said:

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All I see the last 30 or so responses is people that are young and got a little spoiled on near 0 interest rates. In 1980 new car loans were around the 15% mark.

At current we are about 1% over the average in 2018 and about 1% over the average in 2008 and about 2% over nearly the entire 20 year time frame.

The difference in 1% of interest is $4/mo per $10,000 financed.

Same trend in home buying. A 6.75% interest rate on a mortgage is, historically, a great rate. We just had a 3-5 year dip that is anomalous.

---

I'm not that young. But 7% or higher on a car loan is insane. Especially if it is used.

Compare it to 1980 all you want but what was the price of that car? And the income of that person? And the price of everything else.

If car companies want to charge that high of an interest rate then they need to do away with 1900 sales tactics.

The entire sales process is outdated and could easily be updated (or even bypassed) and done online or without a salesman other than for test drive.

cowboycwr said:

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nein51 said:

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All I see the last 30 or so responses is people that are young and got a little spoiled on near 0 interest rates. In 1980 new car loans were around the 15% mark.

At current we are about 1% over the average in 2018 and about 1% over the average in 2008 and about 2% over nearly the entire 20 year time frame.

The difference in 1% of interest is $4/mo per $10,000 financed.

Same trend in home buying. A 6.75% interest rate on a mortgage is, historically, a great rate. We just had a 3-5 year dip that is anomalous.

---

The entire sales process is outdated and could easily be updated (or even bypassed) and done online or without a salesman other than for test drive.

---

I am not interested in EV vehicles right now... but I know Tesla has made a fundamental change in the car buying process. I believe you just order it directly from the website. The price is the price. Just like buying something from Amazon. No salesman to hassle with.

$1,000 car payment is wild to me

[NEWS] More car buyers are paying over $1K/month than ever before:

Beyond that, average payments climbed to $756, while average down payments slipped.

The result: more buyers are maxing out loan terms.

As Edmunds’ Ivan Drury put it…

“It's clear that buyers are pulling the…

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) July 4, 2025

cowboycwr said:

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nein51 said:

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All I see the last 30 or so responses is people that are young and got a little spoiled on near 0 interest rates. In 1980 new car loans were around the 15% mark.

At current we are about 1% over the average in 2018 and about 1% over the average in 2008 and about 2% over nearly the entire 20 year time frame.

The difference in 1% of interest is $4/mo per $10,000 financed.

Same trend in home buying. A 6.75% interest rate on a mortgage is, historically, a great rate. We just had a 3-5 year dip that is anomalous.

---

I'm not that young. But 7% or higher on a car loan is insane. Especially if it is used.

Compare it to 1980 all you want but what was the price of that car? And the income of that person? And the price of everything else.

If car companies want to charge that high of an interest rate then they need to do away with 1900 sales tactics.

The entire sales process is outdated and could easily be updated (or even bypassed) and done online or without a salesman other than for test drive.

---

Struggling with the process is a user problem. You're not going to get a huge discount right now, you're not going to get 2% (today's bank buy rate started at 4% so the lowest you're going to get is 4.X%) and they don't care if you walk.

I purchased a 6 mo old Mercedes at lunch, in less than 40 mins, at the bank buy rate…it's not that hard.

When I bought my diesel last year it had etched windows and LoJack…I said "cool, what's it feel like to pay for stuff I'm definitely not paying for?". Our negotiation was whether I was going to make them remove it or live with it in the truck but I wasn't paying for it either way. Hell, I made them remove the wheel locks and the $56 out of principle.

Admittedly, I'm a huge ahole when buying a car but I love the process.

boognish_bear said:

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$1,000 car payment is wild to me

[NEWS] More car buyers are paying over $1K/month than ever before:

Beyond that, average payments climbed to $756, while average down payments slipped.

The result: more buyers are maxing out loan terms.

As Edmunds’ Ivan Drury put it…

“It's clear that buyers are pulling the…

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) July 4, 2025

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Payment is $100 per $5000 financed. That will get you awfully close to the estimate. People don't put money down and they finance forever.

nein51 said:

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cowboycwr said:

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nein51 said:

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All I see the last 30 or so responses is people that are young and got a little spoiled on near 0 interest rates. In 1980 new car loans were around the 15% mark.

At current we are about 1% over the average in 2018 and about 1% over the average in 2008 and about 2% over nearly the entire 20 year time frame.

The difference in 1% of interest is $4/mo per $10,000 financed.

Same trend in home buying. A 6.75% interest rate on a mortgage is, historically, a great rate. We just had a 3-5 year dip that is anomalous.

---

I'm not that young. But 7% or higher on a car loan is insane. Especially if it is used.

Compare it to 1980 all you want but what was the price of that car? And the income of that person? And the price of everything else.

If car companies want to charge that high of an interest rate then they need to do away with 1900 sales tactics.

The entire sales process is outdated and could easily be updated (or even bypassed) and done online or without a salesman other than for test drive.

---

Struggling with the process is a user problem. You're not going to get a huge discount right now, you're not going to get 2% (today's bank buy rate started at 4% so the lowest you're going to get is 4.X%) and they don't care if you walk.

I purchased a 6 mo old Mercedes at lunch, in less than 40 mins, at the bank buy rate…it's not that hard.

When I bought my diesel last year it had etched windows and LoJack…I said "cool, what's it feel like to pay for stuff I'm definitely not paying for?". Our negotiation was whether I was going to make them remove it or live with it in the truck but I wasn't paying for it either way. Hell, I made them remove the wheel locks and the $56 out of principle.

Admittedly, I'm a huge ahole when buying a car but I love the process.

---

I disagree. The process is a failed process. It is the only model where the price listed is not the actual price, hidden fees exist, they try to add on things, etc.

At least with real estate where prices vary, fees are known, they don't try to get you to buy extras and there is a person you can hire to navigate it all.

The car has a set value based on the items installed in it. Add in the cost for dealership operating (like any other business) and that should be the price.

You may know if this is accurate or not since the car industry is your field, but I have read that the number of people that order online direct from the factory has been increasing for a while and some predictions expect it to keep rising and to have major impacts in the future on dealerships. Which I would love to see. More carvana type places where you order your car and just pick it up like any other item and skip the dealership.

nein51 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

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$1,000 car payment is wild to me

[NEWS] More car buyers are paying over $1K/month than ever before:

Beyond that, average payments climbed to $756, while average down payments slipped.

The result: more buyers are maxing out loan terms.

As Edmunds’ Ivan Drury put it…

“It's clear that buyers are pulling the…

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) July 4, 2025

---

Payment is $100 per $5000 financed. That will get you awfully close to the estimate. People don't put money down and they finance forever.

---

Your last sentence though is part of the larger problem due to people not being able to save the last several years. They don't have money to put down because they are living paycheck to paycheck.

cowboycwr said:

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nein51 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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$1,000 car payment is wild to me

[NEWS] More car buyers are paying over $1K/month than ever before:

Beyond that, average payments climbed to $756, while average down payments slipped.

The result: more buyers are maxing out loan terms.

As Edmunds’ Ivan Drury put it…

“It's clear that buyers are pulling the…

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) July 4, 2025

---

Payment is $100 per $5000 financed. That will get you awfully close to the estimate. People don't put money down and they finance forever.

---

Your last sentence though is part of the larger problem due to people not being able to save the last several years. They don't have money to put down because they are living paycheck to paycheck.

---

If you're living paycheck to paycheck you can't afford a $1,000/month payment. They got that way by financing themselves to death.

cowboycwr said:

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nein51 said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

nein51 said:

---

All I see the last 30 or so responses is people that are young and got a little spoiled on near 0 interest rates. In 1980 new car loans were around the 15% mark.

At current we are about 1% over the average in 2018 and about 1% over the average in 2008 and about 2% over nearly the entire 20 year time frame.

The difference in 1% of interest is $4/mo per $10,000 financed.

Same trend in home buying. A 6.75% interest rate on a mortgage is, historically, a great rate. We just had a 3-5 year dip that is anomalous.

---

I'm not that young. But 7% or higher on a car loan is insane. Especially if it is used.

Compare it to 1980 all you want but what was the price of that car? And the income of that person? And the price of everything else.

If car companies want to charge that high of an interest rate then they need to do away with 1900 sales tactics.

The entire sales process is outdated and could easily be updated (or even bypassed) and done online or without a salesman other than for test drive.

---

Struggling with the process is a user problem. You're not going to get a huge discount right now, you're not going to get 2% (today's bank buy rate started at 4% so the lowest you're going to get is 4.X%) and they don't care if you walk.

I purchased a 6 mo old Mercedes at lunch, in less than 40 mins, at the bank buy rate…it's not that hard.

When I bought my diesel last year it had etched windows and LoJack…I said "cool, what's it feel like to pay for stuff I'm definitely not paying for?". Our negotiation was whether I was going to make them remove it or live with it in the truck but I wasn't paying for it either way. Hell, I made them remove the wheel locks and the $56 out of principle.

Admittedly, I'm a huge ahole when buying a car but I love the process.

---

I disagree. The process is a failed process. It is the only model where the price listed is not the actual price, hidden fees exist, they try to add on things, etc.

At least with real estate where prices vary, fees are known, they don't try to get you to buy extras and there is a person you can hire to navigate it all.

The car has a set value based on the items installed in it. Add in the cost for dealership operating (like any other business) and that should be the price.

You may know if this is accurate or not since the car industry is your field, but I have read that the number of people that order online direct from the factory has been increasing for a while and some predictions expect it to keep rising and to have major impacts in the future on dealerships. Which I would love to see. More carvana type places where you order your car and just pick it up like any other item and skip the dealership.

---

Carvana and CarMax are terrible. The recon cars they bought for 60% of their value from owners don't understand they are getting ripped off…then they turn around and resell those cars at inflated prices, generally to people with poor credit…to owners that don't understand they are being ripped off.

Direct to consumer is fine but I have to tell you that if you're fine paying the sticker price you can do that at any dealer in North America. Anyone paying "market adjustments" is a full on r3tard. I can show you dealers still adding 50k to Corvettes and I can show you that same car being sold under sticker somewhere else.

If you were shopping for a car and you said "I want this and I'm willing to pay sticker but not $1 more" within 24 hours and (depending on where you live) fewer than 100 miles I would bet my mortgage I could find you what you want at that price with no add ons. In a major metro I could probably find you 50 options and someone willing to sell it less than sticker.

nein51 said:

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cowboycwr said:

---

nein51 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

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$1,000 car payment is wild to me

[NEWS] More car buyers are paying over $1K/month than ever before:

Beyond that, average payments climbed to $756, while average down payments slipped.

The result: more buyers are maxing out loan terms.

As Edmunds’ Ivan Drury put it…

“It's clear that buyers are pulling the…

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) July 4, 2025

---

Payment is $100 per $5000 financed. That will get you awfully close to the estimate. People don't put money down and they finance forever.

---

Your last sentence though is part of the larger problem due to people not being able to save the last several years. They don't have money to put down because they are living paycheck to paycheck.

---

If you're living paycheck to paycheck you can't afford a $1,000/month payment. They got that way by financing themselves to death.

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Sorry I should have been more clear. I'm not talking about the people paying $1,000 month payment. Just the people living paycheck to paycheck that are buying cars and getting slapped with 10% or higher APR on used cars.

My friend makes $65k but has several brand new cars, a country club membership, beautiful home, and season tickets to every pro sports team in our city

His secret?

Crippling debt.

Lesson: If you want it bad enough, you’ll find a way!

— Chase Passive Income (@chasedownleads) July 5, 2025

nein51 said:

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cowboycwr said:

---

nein51 said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

nein51 said:

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All I see the last 30 or so responses is people that are young and got a little spoiled on near 0 interest rates. In 1980 new car loans were around the 15% mark.

At current we are about 1% over the average in 2018 and about 1% over the average in 2008 and about 2% over nearly the entire 20 year time frame.

The difference in 1% of interest is $4/mo per $10,000 financed.

Same trend in home buying. A 6.75% interest rate on a mortgage is, historically, a great rate. We just had a 3-5 year dip that is anomalous.

---

I'm not that young. But 7% or higher on a car loan is insane. Especially if it is used.

Compare it to 1980 all you want but what was the price of that car? And the income of that person? And the price of everything else.

If car companies want to charge that high of an interest rate then they need to do away with 1900 sales tactics.

The entire sales process is outdated and could easily be updated (or even bypassed) and done online or without a salesman other than for test drive.

---

Struggling with the process is a user problem. You're not going to get a huge discount right now, you're not going to get 2% (today's bank buy rate started at 4% so the lowest you're going to get is 4.X%) and they don't care if you walk.

I purchased a 6 mo old Mercedes at lunch, in less than 40 mins, at the bank buy rate…it's not that hard.

When I bought my diesel last year it had etched windows and LoJack…I said "cool, what's it feel like to pay for stuff I'm definitely not paying for?". Our negotiation was whether I was going to make them remove it or live with it in the truck but I wasn't paying for it either way. Hell, I made them remove the wheel locks and the $56 out of principle.

Admittedly, I'm a huge ahole when buying a car but I love the process.

---

I disagree. The process is a failed process. It is the only model where the price listed is not the actual price, hidden fees exist, they try to add on things, etc.

At least with real estate where prices vary, fees are known, they don't try to get you to buy extras and there is a person you can hire to navigate it all.

The car has a set value based on the items installed in it. Add in the cost for dealership operating (like any other business) and that should be the price.

You may know if this is accurate or not since the car industry is your field, but I have read that the number of people that order online direct from the factory has been increasing for a while and some predictions expect it to keep rising and to have major impacts in the future on dealerships. Which I would love to see. More carvana type places where you order your car and just pick it up like any other item and skip the dealership.

---

Carvana and CarMax are terrible. The recon cars they bought for 60% of their value from owners don't understand they are getting ripped off…then they turn around and resell those cars at inflated prices, generally to people with poor credit…to owners that don't understand they are being ripped off.

Direct to consumer is fine but I have to tell you that if you're fine paying the sticker price you can do that at any dealer in North America. Anyone paying "market adjustments" is a full on r3tard. I can show you dealers still adding 50k to Corvettes and I can show you that same car being sold under sticker somewhere else.

If you were shopping for a car and you said "I want this and I'm willing to pay sticker but not $1 more" within 24 hours and (depending on where you live) fewer than 100 miles I would bet my mortgage I could find you what you want at that price with no add ons. In a major metro I could probably find you 50 options and someone willing to sell it less than sticker.

---

Carvana gave us the most of anyone for our old car. (2012 Lexus GX) By far. Even when just selling to them. Every other dealer was trying to rip us off. One said it was only good for parts and offered $500. Others were at about $2000. And then they were even more insulting by saying if we did a trade in the would waive a fee ($50) or discount about $750.

Carvana gave us thousands more than those places.

I would not buy from them or carmax just because I want to avoid used cars and always want to buy new.

It really is insane that the Anglosphere just doesn't build housing. pic.twitter.com/OnjebD3ooW

— Hunter📈🌈📊 (@StatisticUrban) July 7, 2025

boognish_bear said:

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My friend makes $65k but has several brand new cars, a country club membership, beautiful home, and season tickets to every pro sports team in our city

His secret?

Crippling debt.

Lesson: If you want it bad enough, you’ll find a way!

— Chase Passive Income (@chasedownleads) July 5, 2025

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This is something that has crossed my mind. I think sometimes we do not correctly use "living paycheck to paycheck."