You keep showing everyone the man you are, Fre3dombear.

Well beyond dispute.

Oldbear83 said:

---

You keep showing everyone the man you are, Fre3dombear.

Well beyond dispute.

---

Perfectly fine with that.

Trust me God knows

He is my judge. Not you. You want to make it personal. Debate if you want. Happy to. Wont engage in the personal stuff the weak minded resort to with name calling etc. zero emotion from me for the name calling. Just shrugs as I share for those who listen.

" Wont engage in the personal stuff "

You did long ago, and have repeatedly.

Not trying to set you off, but you really don't seem to be aware of your own words.

To call that an understatement would be an understatement.

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Wont engage in the personal stuff "

You did long ago, and have repeatedly.

Not trying to set you off, but you really don't seem to be aware of your own words.

---

Mmmmmk. Not sure why anything youd say would set ke off.

Prove it. Long ago? Ok sure maybe I guess. Im not as pious as those here clearly. Excellent justification for your personal attacks.

Anyway, just pop inhere to share the Catholic faith with those that dont know what it is and are misinformed. No more to say on whatever it is you seem excited to rant about

BUDOS said:

---

To call that an understatement would be an understatement.

---

It's funny. On other topics, Fre3dombear is a very reasonable guy with solid takes.

Of course, there is someone on the protestant side who goes straight-up Attila on anyone who dares to oppose his inspired wisdom. So it's sadly something that happens a lot when someone's religion is challenged.

I am certainly guilty of sometimes going rude and mean, but some folks come in looking for a fight.

Apparently to a Protestant explaining the faith and citing scripture as justification for beliefs 2 millenia old is "looking for a fight"

Fre3dombear said:

---

Apparently to a Protestant explaining the faith and citing scripture as justification for beliefs 2 millenia old is "looking for a fight"

---

Odd, none of your last fifteen posts fit that description.

But hey, you got your shot in.

Have a good evening.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Apparently to a Protestant explaining the faith and citing scripture as justification for beliefs 2 millenia old is "looking for a fight"

---

Odd, none of your last fifteen posts fit that description.

But hey, you got your shot in.

Have a good evening.

---

No shots taken. Simply responding to you and trying to get you back on track. You've invested much time on nonsense.

I invested 'much time' trying to get you to see how you are hurting your own message.

Others, like CokeBear and BUDOS, have established not only a cordial tone, but stayed on message without attacking protestants or other non-Roman-Catholics.

You really don't want to be lumped in with the protestant version of Attila who treats any disagreement like a provocation he must retaliate against.

Sorry if you consider that 'nonsense'.

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

So, you would be good if Catholic's called her the "Queen Mother" of Heaven?

Seems we spend a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter in the greater scheme.

Some poor person that marked Mary Queen of Heaven on their calendar or went to mass on a Holy Day is going to hell for idiolatry even though they lived their life following Jesus's two greatest commandmants.


Yet the one that continually falls and cheats on their wife is forgiven each week just by saying I am a sinner...

That is consistent...

---

Florida, respectfully, you really need to start reading better, my friend. The title of this thread, if you recall, was this: "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And now you're arguing about whether Mary should be called the "Queen Mother"? Oy vey. Your reading comprehension at times is atrocious, which results in inane posts such as this.

Again, the idea that Mary is a queen who should be honored on the same plane as God is what I take issue with. I do that because that is clear heresy. I would not expect a non-Christian, which I believe is what you have admitted you are, to understand or agree, and can see why someone not of the faith would find these disagreements silly. They're not for believers for the reason I just stated.

And for the record, I never said or suggested that anyone who believes Mary should be queen is going to hell. Again, this is your atrocious reading comprehension. Do better.

---

You really take things too seriously.

Yes it is about Mary. I provided where it comes from and asked you a question on what would you call the mother of a King. And asked if you would have a problem with "Queen Mother"?

Others on here have spoken about idioligy and worshiping an idol. I think one person, in this thread, even said it was the definition. I am sorry you took it as an attack, but it was in context with string of posts.

It is a serious question, as we have Protestants saying the Catholic partake in idol worship which is a mortal sin. Sorry, respectfully I don't think my question is out of line for the context of this thread of posts on Mary and everything said.

---

Then you're asking the wrong person, and attributing positions to me I've never conveyed. Feel free to ask the posters who said such things.

For the record, I don't believe in mortal sins - another unscriptural Catholic belief.

---

1 John 5:16-17

Oldbear83 said:

---

I invested 'much time' trying to get you to see how you are hurting your own message.

Others, like CokeBear and BUDOS, have established not only a cordial tone, but stayed on message without attacking protestants or other non-Roman-Catholics.

You really don't want to be lumped in with the protestant version of Attila who treats any disagreement like a provocation he must retaliate against.

Sorry if you consider that 'nonsense'.

---

I simply respond as spoken to largely, without the name calling unless called names. Its all just good ribbing right? Or so we're told. At any rate, happy as always to share the good news and explain the faith. No emotion from me as always just scripture and verse and historical facts.

We all have free will to do with it as we may

" just scripture and verse and historical facts."

If you think so, seriously, go back and look at your posts in this thread from today.

Or you can be the RC version of that fellow I mentioned in my last post. Either way, that horse needs no more beating.

Good night.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

So, you would be good if Catholic's called her the "Queen Mother" of Heaven?

Seems we spend a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter in the greater scheme.

Some poor person that marked Mary Queen of Heaven on their calendar or went to mass on a Holy Day is going to hell for idiolatry even though they lived their life following Jesus's two greatest commandmants.


Yet the one that continually falls and cheats on their wife is forgiven each week just by saying I am a sinner...

That is consistent...

---

Florida, respectfully, you really need to start reading better, my friend. The title of this thread, if you recall, was this: "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And now you're arguing about whether Mary should be called the "Queen Mother"? Oy vey. Your reading comprehension at times is atrocious, which results in inane posts such as this.

Again, the idea that Mary is a queen who should be honored on the same plane as God is what I take issue with. I do that because that is clear heresy. I would not expect a non-Christian, which I believe is what you have admitted you are, to understand or agree, and can see why someone not of the faith would find these disagreements silly. They're not for believers for the reason I just stated.

And for the record, I never said or suggested that anyone who believes Mary should be queen is going to hell. Again, this is your atrocious reading comprehension. Do better.

---

You really take things too seriously.

Yes it is about Mary. I provided where it comes from and asked you a question on what would you call the mother of a King. And asked if you would have a problem with "Queen Mother"?

Others on here have spoken about idioligy and worshiping an idol. I think one person, in this thread, even said it was the definition. I am sorry you took it as an attack, but it was in context with string of posts.

It is a serious question, as we have Protestants saying the Catholic partake in idol worship which is a mortal sin. Sorry, respectfully I don't think my question is out of line for the context of this thread of posts on Mary and everything said.

---

Then you're asking the wrong person, and attributing positions to me I've never conveyed. Feel free to ask the posters who said such things.

For the record, I don't believe in mortal sins - another unscriptural Catholic belief.

---

1 John 5:16-17

---

Yep. Ive posted it many times.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am curious what kind of church you attend.

---

A non-denominational Christian church.

---

Interesting.

Does your church have a mission statement or doctrine of belief, so folks know how you roll?

---

They have a Bible. Isn't that enough?

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am curious what kind of church you attend.

---

A non-denominational Christian church.

---

Interesting.

Does your church have a mission statement or doctrine of belief, so folks know how you roll?

---

They have a Bible. Isn't that enough?

---

One would think so, but it's amazing what some people claim the Bible says, when it does not.

FLBear5630 said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

There is no Queen in heaven. Jesus is Lord & King alone.

There is no reason to believe Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus because there never was a reason for her to do so. In fact, that would have violated God's command. Also, the gospels make clear that Jesus had brothers and sisters, some of whom are named.

Lastly, Christian's have no reason to pray to anyone but God (Father, Son or Spirit) and no reason to expect an answer from anyone else. Prayer is an act of worship and praying to someone other than God is a form of idolatry.

---

You guys sure out a lot of time in to stuff that can't be proven or have little impact on your lives.

---

No, just following scripture.

Fre3dombear said:

---

historian said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

There is no Queen in heaven. Jesus is Lord & King alone.

There is no reason to believe Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus because there never was a reason for her to do so. In fact, that would have violated God's command. Also, the gospels make clear that Jesus had brothers and sisters, some of whom are named.

Lastly, Christian's have no reason to pray to anyone but God (Father, Son or Spirit) and no reason to expect an answer from anyone else. Prayer is an act of worship and praying to someone other than God is a form of idolatry.

---

Please state your proof of Mary not being ever virgin? Which command of God would she have violated?

---

Mary had other children. The only virgin birth in history was Jesus Christ. See Matthew 12:46-50.

God commanded Adam, Noah, and by extension their descendants to be "fruitful and multiply". On a common sense level, there is no reason a married couple 2,000 years ago would not have multiple children. They certainly would not have remained virgins. And theEd is no scriptural basis suggesting they did.

The context in Matthew is very clear that it is his family that are mentioned.

Amazing way to start the day

historian said:

---

The context in Matthew is very clear that it is his family that are mentioned.

---

55 Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph,[f] and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

The Burial of Jesus

57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

In context she not referred to as the mother of Jesus in Matthew. I highly doubt the mother of Jesus would be referred to as the other Mary..

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

Another lie or ignorance. Ive never said Mary deserves same veneretion as God. Prove that please.

Thanks in advance.

---

Um, you do remember the title of your thread do you not? "Imagine willfully not trying tohonor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

If you didn't mean to suggest that Mary should be honored as much as our Lord, you should'nt have said it. But you are an awful communicator.

---

Read it again. This time without projecting your stubborn strong bias into it and report back.

---

Tell you what, if you didn't mean to suggest that Mary should be honored as much as God when you said, "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ," then you could explain what you meant, because that's how any reasonable person (and every person on this thread) took it.

But we all know you would rather be vague and ambiguous.

---

Tell you what, i never state something other than what i mean to state. Youre clearly reading it wrong. If you cant find the right way to read it thats on you. Plus many Catholics have already corrected you here in this thread about it so we could move on from your misread. We cant teach always to the slowest in the class. Me thinks youre just being silly on purpose.

Will. Not. Play.

---

Of course. A non-answer followed by a personal attack. As predictable as the sunrise.

I get it if you didn't mean to say that Mary should be honored "as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ," but you said it. Best to just admit your error instead of digging the hole deeper. But of course, we know you are unable to do that. Too prideful.

---

Personal attack? Did i accidentally drop the esteemed and highly intellectual argument ender of "son"?

---

Using "son" is disrespectful implying a paternalistic relationship, with the person you are talking to being the child. Get it kiddo?

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Mothra said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Sounds like you are pretty grounded and have a good sense of self about religion and politics. Additionally I definitely agree with you also about the difficulty in dealing with people who not only disagree but let you know it in a manner that makes it even harder to give them any credibility, much less want to do so.

Perhaps having the opportunity to express yourself that way in these forums is a form of therapy. Having said that there are some posts on this forum which I enjoy and some which make me reflect on my beliefs.
I have learned some things about Catholicism for example which I never knew before as well as gaining more depth on how different Protestant beliefs can differ. Hang in there and try not to give in and be like the few who are not as disciplined. I know that I have my moments that can be pretty shameful.

---

I am curious what kind of church you attend.

---

A non-denominational Christian church.

---

Interesting.

Does your church have a mission statement or doctrine of belief, so folks know how you roll?

---

They have a Bible. Isn't that enough?

---

Clearly not. We need a number of Catholic patriarchs with contradictory beliefs to tell us what it says (but not allow us to read it for ourselves, of course!)

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

So, you would be good if Catholic's called her the "Queen Mother" of Heaven?

Seems we spend a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter in the greater scheme.

Some poor person that marked Mary Queen of Heaven on their calendar or went to mass on a Holy Day is going to hell for idiolatry even though they lived their life following Jesus's two greatest commandmants.


Yet the one that continually falls and cheats on their wife is forgiven each week just by saying I am a sinner...

That is consistent...

---

Florida, respectfully, you really need to start reading better, my friend. The title of this thread, if you recall, was this: "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And now you're arguing about whether Mary should be called the "Queen Mother"? Oy vey. Your reading comprehension at times is atrocious, which results in inane posts such as this.

Again, the idea that Mary is a queen who should be honored on the same plane as God is what I take issue with. I do that because that is clear heresy. I would not expect a non-Christian, which I believe is what you have admitted you are, to understand or agree, and can see why someone not of the faith would find these disagreements silly. They're not for believers for the reason I just stated.

And for the record, I never said or suggested that anyone who believes Mary should be queen is going to hell. Again, this is your atrocious reading comprehension. Do better.

---

You really take things too seriously.

Yes it is about Mary. I provided where it comes from and asked you a question on what would you call the mother of a King. And asked if you would have a problem with "Queen Mother"?

Others on here have spoken about idioligy and worshiping an idol. I think one person, in this thread, even said it was the definition. I am sorry you took it as an attack, but it was in context with string of posts.

It is a serious question, as we have Protestants saying the Catholic partake in idol worship which is a mortal sin. Sorry, respectfully I don't think my question is out of line for the context of this thread of posts on Mary and everything said.

---

Then you're asking the wrong person, and attributing positions to me I've never conveyed. Feel free to ask the posters who said such things.

For the record, I don't believe in mortal sins - another unscriptural Catholic belief.

---

1 John 5:16-17

---

Thank goodness with have the Catholic Church to thank for not only inventing the term "mortal" sin, but also inventing the 7 deadly sins that this particular verse fails to reference.

NM

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

So, you would be good if Catholic's called her the "Queen Mother" of Heaven?

Seems we spend a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter in the greater scheme.

Some poor person that marked Mary Queen of Heaven on their calendar or went to mass on a Holy Day is going to hell for idiolatry even though they lived their life following Jesus's two greatest commandmants.


Yet the one that continually falls and cheats on their wife is forgiven each week just by saying I am a sinner...

That is consistent...

---

Florida, respectfully, you really need to start reading better, my friend. The title of this thread, if you recall, was this: "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And now you're arguing about whether Mary should be called the "Queen Mother"? Oy vey. Your reading comprehension at times is atrocious, which results in inane posts such as this.

Again, the idea that Mary is a queen who should be honored on the same plane as God is what I take issue with. I do that because that is clear heresy. I would not expect a non-Christian, which I believe is what you have admitted you are, to understand or agree, and can see why someone not of the faith would find these disagreements silly. They're not for believers for the reason I just stated.

And for the record, I never said or suggested that anyone who believes Mary should be queen is going to hell. Again, this is your atrocious reading comprehension. Do better.

---

You really take things too seriously.

Yes it is about Mary. I provided where it comes from and asked you a question on what would you call the mother of a King. And asked if you would have a problem with "Queen Mother"?

Others on here have spoken about idioligy and worshiping an idol. I think one person, in this thread, even said it was the definition. I am sorry you took it as an attack, but it was in context with string of posts.

It is a serious question, as we have Protestants saying the Catholic partake in idol worship which is a mortal sin. Sorry, respectfully I don't think my question is out of line for the context of this thread of posts on Mary and everything said.

---

Then you're asking the wrong person, and attributing positions to me I've never conveyed. Feel free to ask the posters who said such things.

For the record, I don't believe in mortal sins - another unscriptural Catholic belief.

---

1 John 5:16-17

---

Thank goodness with have the Catholic Church to thank for not only inventing the term "mortal" sin, but also inventing the 7 deadly sins that this particular verse fails to reference.

---

Wow, you guys are obsessed with a religion you dont belong. If you spent this much tine on stocks you would be wealthy.

Why do you care? Isn't there some minute part of the Bible you guys dont agree with Luther on?

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

So, you would be good if Catholic's called her the "Queen Mother" of Heaven?

Seems we spend a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter in the greater scheme.

Some poor person that marked Mary Queen of Heaven on their calendar or went to mass on a Holy Day is going to hell for idiolatry even though they lived their life following Jesus's two greatest commandmants.


Yet the one that continually falls and cheats on their wife is forgiven each week just by saying I am a sinner...

That is consistent...

---

Florida, respectfully, you really need to start reading better, my friend. The title of this thread, if you recall, was this: "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And now you're arguing about whether Mary should be called the "Queen Mother"? Oy vey. Your reading comprehension at times is atrocious, which results in inane posts such as this.

Again, the idea that Mary is a queen who should be honored on the same plane as God is what I take issue with. I do that because that is clear heresy. I would not expect a non-Christian, which I believe is what you have admitted you are, to understand or agree, and can see why someone not of the faith would find these disagreements silly. They're not for believers for the reason I just stated.

And for the record, I never said or suggested that anyone who believes Mary should be queen is going to hell. Again, this is your atrocious reading comprehension. Do better.

---

You really take things too seriously.

Yes it is about Mary. I provided where it comes from and asked you a question on what would you call the mother of a King. And asked if you would have a problem with "Queen Mother"?

Others on here have spoken about idioligy and worshiping an idol. I think one person, in this thread, even said it was the definition. I am sorry you took it as an attack, but it was in context with string of posts.

It is a serious question, as we have Protestants saying the Catholic partake in idol worship which is a mortal sin. Sorry, respectfully I don't think my question is out of line for the context of this thread of posts on Mary and everything said.

---

Then you're asking the wrong person, and attributing positions to me I've never conveyed. Feel free to ask the posters who said such things.

For the record, I don't believe in mortal sins - another unscriptural Catholic belief.

---

1 John 5:16-17

---

Thank goodness with have the Catholic Church to thank for not only inventing the term "mortal" sin, but also inventing the 7 deadly sins that this particular verse fails to reference.

---

Wow, you guys are obsessed with a religion you dont belong. If you spent this much tine on stocks you would be wealthy.

Why do you care? Isn't there some minute part of the Bible you guys dont agree with Luther on?

---

This thread is a forum for debate. Not sure why you missed that part.

We protestants care for the same reason your Roman Catholics care. Otherwise we would have settled the point and moved on long ago.

And regarding Luther, yes he was a flawed man. The thing is, protestants rejected the things Luther did wrong, while RCs continue to embrace, in large numbers. practices and doctrines which do not exist in Scripture, and worse, in some cases were condemned by Christ.

We are told to warn our brothers when they err. Sorry it offends you.

duplicate, disregard please

Oldbear83 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

To call that an understatement would be an understatement.

---

Of course, there is someone on the protestant side who goes straight-up Attila on anyone who dares to oppose his inspired wisdom. So it's sadly something that happens a lot when someone's religion is challenged.

---

LOL. Wow.

Have you been trying to demonstrate that behavior, plus the "bickering" you frequently condemn others for, in these last two pages?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Others, like CokeBear and BUDOS, have established not only a cordial tone, but stayed on message without attacking protestants or other non-Roman-Catholics.

---

LOL. Wow.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Mary, like some others in the Bible, and perhaps some others, may deserve special recognition for their contributions to the Lord's work. However, only one is sitting at the right hand of God.

---

Yep and only one is the Queen

---

Sorry there is no queen. There is no throne for Mary.

Any belief otherwise is unbiblical.

---

You really should read again. incompetent or lying? You choose

---

I'm not sure what you're referring but I've stopped trying to make logical sense out of your posts. You're about as clear as mud - intentionally so, it would appear.

---

Nope. Its right there for you to read. Ive shown you many many times. You just say nuh uh. Same as it ever was.

---

And you likewise say crap like this all the time, claiming you've shown evidence or scriptural support for a position that everyone is ignoring, when the truth is your claims are always specious, baseless and unsupported.

I promise you, if you could actually present valid evidence in support of your baseless opinions, I'd stop saying "nuh uh." When you make a claim, it is your burden to prove it with evidence.

I suspect the response to this will once again be, "But I have shown evidence" - yet another one of your many false assertions.

---

Well you see ive already responded and always give chapter and verse. Its you denying those chapter and verses. Its just tiring and boring and circular. Its not my job toake you believe. I can only present facts. Then Faith has to do its part.

. This ones super easy but since youre either lazy or not genuine ill put it on the spoon for ya:

Thessalonians 2:14 (context from verses 1415):
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace..."

This verse refers to holding both written (epistle/Scripture) and oral (by word) apostolic traditions.

Im sure you can search all the times ive already posted on it.

---

Do you remember the subject of this particular discussion? It appears not. Let me remind you.

You made the assertion that Mary is "queen." I said there's no scriptural support for your position. And you went off on a tangent, as you always do, apparently claiming that position was biblical. Is this the verse you allege supports your position that Mary is "queen"? A verse in which Paul talks specifically to the Thessalonians about the traditions that have been taught in the Thessalonian church? Is it your position that the Thessalonians taught that Mary was "queen"?

---

Of course rhats not what happened as you always change your story when met with facts. Mary is referenced in revelation obviously and of course David's mom as tie in to how the mother of
the king is referred to simpol.

Just more scripture to consider.

---

As usual you can't communicate a coherent thought.

I have no idea what you are saying. All i know is you failed to answer some pretty simple questions. If you get brave enough to do so let me know

---

You scared. Deflect deflect. As always. Why its your MO nobody knows.

---

Tell you what, just for my own amusement, I'll try this one more time. Please cite the specific verses in scripture wherein Mary is referred to or given the position of queen. And to be clear, I am not referring to Paul's statement to the Thessalonians about their specific traditions or some other circular type of argument which you will use try and say all Catholic beliefs are valid because of "tradition." I would like a verse which specifically states or suggests Mary is queen, and must be honored as such.

Thanks in advance.

---

My understanding was from the Annunciation Narrative in Luke. Gabriel telling Mary her son would be King.

So, I guess my question is what do you call the Mother of a King?

---

Queen mother? Don't know but what I do know is God didn't ornate her a queen, and he certainly didn't say she's worthy of the same veneration as himself, as the OP has argued on this thread.

---

So, you would be good if Catholic's called her the "Queen Mother" of Heaven?

Seems we spend a lot of time on stuff that doesn't matter in the greater scheme.

Some poor person that marked Mary Queen of Heaven on their calendar or went to mass on a Holy Day is going to hell for idiolatry even though they lived their life following Jesus's two greatest commandmants.


Yet the one that continually falls and cheats on their wife is forgiven each week just by saying I am a sinner...

That is consistent...

---

Florida, respectfully, you really need to start reading better, my friend. The title of this thread, if you recall, was this: "Imagine willfully not trying to honor Mary as much as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." And now you're arguing about whether Mary should be called the "Queen Mother"? Oy vey. Your reading comprehension at times is atrocious, which results in inane posts such as this.

Again, the idea that Mary is a queen who should be honored on the same plane as God is what I take issue with. I do that because that is clear heresy. I would not expect a non-Christian, which I believe is what you have admitted you are, to understand or agree, and can see why someone not of the faith would find these disagreements silly. They're not for believers for the reason I just stated.

And for the record, I never said or suggested that anyone who believes Mary should be queen is going to hell. Again, this is your atrocious reading comprehension. Do better.

---

You really take things too seriously.

Yes it is about Mary. I provided where it comes from and asked you a question on what would you call the mother of a King. And asked if you would have a problem with "Queen Mother"?

Others on here have spoken about idioligy and worshiping an idol. I think one person, in this thread, even said it was the definition. I am sorry you took it as an attack, but it was in context with string of posts.

It is a serious question, as we have Protestants saying the Catholic partake in idol worship which is a mortal sin. Sorry, respectfully I don't think my question is out of line for the context of this thread of posts on Mary and everything said.

---

Then you're asking the wrong person, and attributing positions to me I've never conveyed. Feel free to ask the posters who said such things.

For the record, I don't believe in mortal sins - another unscriptural Catholic belief.

---

1 John 5:16-17

---

Thank goodness with have the Catholic Church to thank for not only inventing the term "mortal" sin, but also inventing the 7 deadly sins that this particular verse fails to reference.

---

Wow, you guys are obsessed with a religion you dont belong. If you spent this much tine on stocks you would be wealthy.

Why do you care? Isn't there some minute part of the Bible you guys dont agree with Luther on?

---

This thread is a forum for debate. Not sure why you missed that part.

We protestants care for the same reason your Roman Catholics care. Otherwise we would have settled the point and moved on long ago.

And regarding Luther, yes he was a flawed man. The thing is, protestants rejected the things Luther did wrong, while RCs continue to embrace, in large numbers. practices and doctrines which do not exist in Scripture, and worse, in some cases were condemned by Christ.

We are told to warn our brothers when they err. Sorry it offends you.

---

Nah, this is a lecture. Why? Because when any of the Catholics provide you with their answer or tell you their believes you tell us paternalistically we are wrong. That is not a debate, it is a lecture.

FLBear: " this is a lecture."

No, this is a real debate. You are just upset that reasonable people challenge your lack of scriptural support for your claims, and that you try to wave away Marianism's pernicious threat to many immature bellievers.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear: " this is a lecture."

No, this is a real debate. You are just upset that reasonable people challenge your lack of scriptural support for your claims, and that you try to wave away Marianism's pernicious threat to many immature bellievers.

---

That is the problem, you are only accepting one side - scripture. The one for one reconciliation isn't there, it cant be. We view Scripture and Church Tradition. You discount anything but scripture. of course there is no reconciliation that is why we had the reformation! Those who didnt believe, left. There can be no answer that makes both sides happy.

By the way, we are all flawed in some way...

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear: " this is a lecture."

No, this is a real debate. You are just upset that reasonable people challenge your lack of scriptural support for your claims, and that you try to wave away Marianism's pernicious threat to many immature bellievers.

---

That is the problem, you are only accepting one side - scripture. The one for one reconciliation isn't there, it cant be. We view Scripture and Church Tradition. You discount anything but scripture. of course there is no reconciliation that is why we had the reformation! Those who didnt believe, left. There can be no answer that makes both sides happy.

By the way, we are all flawed in some way...

---

Of course we are flawed. That's the problem with your 'tradition' which conveniently means What Rome Says.

With respect, no, you are not qualified to dictate to the other denominations.

And when your 'tradition' twists and opposes Scripture, all Christians are commanded to follow Christ, not Rome.

Just as we do not follow some big-name minister instead of Christ. And we do not judge someone's service by how big their church is, or how famous they are.

I don't know about you, but the most impressive Christians I know are people I met, who held modest titles or none, whose names were unknown because they did not seek fame, but whose work would put most of us to shame. Some are Roman Catholic, some are Baptist, but all displayed the Holy Spirit in their lives and followed Jesus in a way I can only wish the Popes, Deacons, Pastors and so on would do.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear: " this is a lecture."

No, this is a real debate. You are just upset that reasonable people challenge your lack of scriptural support for your claims, and that you try to wave away Marianism's pernicious threat to many immature bellievers.

---

I'm very glad that you're finally standing up for the truth against the heretical and idolatrous beliefs and practices of Roman Catholicism.

But why is it okay when YOU do it, but when others do it, it's "bickering" and "going full Attila the Hun on those who challenge their inspired wisdom"??