Sam Lowry said:

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quash said:

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An effort. A little tiny bit of effort. What is provocative is not the lack of effort, but the backstabbing.

Whatever happened to America First?

---

There was no backstabbing. I will say one thing: if Trump had done what everyone seems to think he should have done, if he'd stood there at the most critical juncture in US/Russia relations since the Cold War and called Putin a liar publicly and to his face, you'd be right to say he doesn't value diplomacy.

---

That wouldn't be diplomatic, either. And Helsinki was not so critical a juncture as Ukraine or Crimea, which apparently got blessed by Trump in Helsinki.

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

An effort. A little tiny bit of effort. What is provocative is not the lack of effort, but the backstabbing.

Whatever happened to America First?

---

There was no backstabbing. I will say one thing: if Trump had done what everyone seems to think he should have done, if he'd stood there at the most critical juncture in US/Russia relations since the Cold War and called Putin a liar publicly and to his face, you'd be right to say he doesn't value diplomacy.

---

He should never have been on a stage next to Putin to begin with. With all that has gone on in recent years with Russia, plus the allegations and activities that remain under investigation, going to meet Putin wasnt't diplomacy it was supplication. Meeting Putin on his home turf without any overture or change in behavior continues to make no sense at all, especially right on the heels of the Skripal poisoning, not to mention what happened 2016.

Jinx 2 said:

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Same guy you voted for.

Takes the same moral fiber it does to keep supporting a church that covers for pedophile and sexually abusive priests again and again and again, lies about the abuse early on by blaming on homosexual priests or claiming it didn't happen (he said/he-or-she said), and then pays people off and keeps moving bad actors from parish to parish to parish and putting them through bogus rehab programs, until they are finally shamed into action by a report that includes horrific reports that include teen pregnancies caused by priests, abortions paid for by priests and a boy who is raped so hard, often and repeatedly by a truly evil priest that he suffers a permanent back injury and ultimately dies of an overdose of the painkillers he becomes addicted to.

Cohen and Pecker are the first wave of the Trump complicity version of the Pennsylvania abusive priest report.

How many morally nasty and sordid behaviors are you going to excuse or ignore because you like their policies?

---

I'm guessing you haven't actually read the Pennsylvania report and its conclusions about what remedies the Church has applied and what remains to be done. I don't excuse or ignore the behaviors, but I'm not going to toss the baby with the bathwater and stop supporting the Church, either.

J.R. was right to vote the way he did. If he no longer thinks Trump's policies are good, I can respect that. I'm simply not convinced by his sudden righteous anger over Trump's character. Yours is even less convincing in light of your support for Clinton.

HuMcK said:

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He should never have been on a stage next to Putin to begin with. With all that has gone on in recent years with Russia, plus the allegations and activities that remain under investigation, going to meet Putin wasnt't diplomacy it was supplication. Meeting Putin on his home turf without any overture or change in behavior continues to make no sense at all, especially right on the heels of the Skripal poisoning, not to mention what happened 2016.

---

See, now this is what real contempt for diplomacy looks like. And it's the real reason Trump is so disliked. It's the same attitude the hawks have displayed toward Iraq, North Korea, and Iran, and it's never been productive.

quash said:

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That wouldn't be diplomatic, either. And Helsinki was not so critical a juncture as Ukraine or Crimea, which apparently got blessed by Trump in Helsinki.

---

Ukraine and Crimea were not critical junctures. You asked what happened to America First? America First means looking out for our interests before others and being realistic about our commitments.

Sam Lowry said:

---

HuMcK said:

---

He should never have been on a stage next to Putin to begin with. With all that has gone on in recent years with Russia, plus the allegations and activities that remain under investigation, going to meet Putin wasnt't diplomacy it was supplication. Meeting Putin on his home turf without any overture or change in behavior continues to make no sense at all, especially right on the heels of the Skripal poisoning, not to mention what happened 2016.

---

See, now this is what real contempt for diplomacy looks like. And it's the real reason Trump is so disliked. It's the same attitude the hawks have displayed toward Iraq, North Korea, and Iran, and it's never been productive.

---

Diplomacy with Russia doesn't have to be Chief Executives face to face, or in Finland. Going to Putin with all that's happened is weakness (some would say obedience), and acting like Trump did on stage next to Putin was an embarrassment. It was a disaster, every thinking person informed on the relevant issues would say the same, I'm sorry that your partisanship won't let you see that.

HuMcK said:

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Diplomacy with Russia doesn't have to be Chief Executives face to face, or in Finland. Going to Putin with all that's hapoennes is weakness (some would say obedience), and acting like Trump did on stage next to Putin was an embarrassment. It was a disaster, every thinking person informed on the relevant issues would say the same, I'm sorry that your partisanship won't let you see that.

---

So if he'd held the meeting via FaceTime from Colonial Williamsburg you'd have been all for it? Please.

Sam Lowry said:

---

HuMcK said:

---

Diplomacy with Russia doesn't have to be Chief Executives face to face, or in Finland. Going to Putin with all that's hapoennes is weakness (some would say obedience), and acting like Trump did on stage next to Putin was an embarrassment. It was a disaster, every thinking person informed on the relevant issues would say the same, I'm sorry that your partisanship won't let you see that.

---

So if he'd held the meeting via FaceTime from Colonial Williamsburg you'd have been all for it? Please.

---

Or maybe through diplomats, or over the phone, perhaps after some overture from Russia signaling a willingness to meet us in the middle on some issue. Honestly, to everyone but Republicans these days Russia is a rogue state, who assassinates people on foreign soil with chemical and radiological weapons and just blatantly put their thumbs on the scale in our elections in an unprecedented way, they deserve isolation and scorn more than rapproachment with America. In a normal timeline where Republicans loved America and cared about fellow Americans more than their hold on power, we would be partnering with our Western Allies to isolate and punish Russia on the world stage instead of shunning our allies to cuddle up to Russia.

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

An effort. A little tiny bit of effort. What is provocative is not the lack of effort, but the backstabbing.

Whatever happened to America First?

---

There was no backstabbing. I will say one thing: if Trump had done what everyone seems to think he should have done, if he'd stood there at the most critical juncture in US/Russia relations since the Cold War and called Putin a liar publicly and to his face, you'd be right to say he doesn't value diplomacy.

---

That wouldn't be diplomatic, either. And Helsinki was not so critical a juncture as Ukraine or Crimea, which apparently got blessed by Trump in Helsinki.

---

Trump is quite diplomatic. You just dislike his brand of diplomacy.

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

That wouldn't be diplomatic, either. And Helsinki was not so critical a juncture as Ukraine or Crimea, which apparently got blessed by Trump in Helsinki.

---

Ukraine and Crimea were not critical junctures. You asked what happened to America First? America First means looking out for our interests before others and being realistic about our commitments.

---

Trump did not put America first in Helsinki. At all.

GolemIII said:

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quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

An effort. A little tiny bit of effort. What is provocative is not the lack of effort, but the backstabbing.

Whatever happened to America First?

---

There was no backstabbing. I will say one thing: if Trump had done what everyone seems to think he should have done, if he'd stood there at the most critical juncture in US/Russia relations since the Cold War and called Putin a liar publicly and to his face, you'd be right to say he doesn't value diplomacy.

---

That wouldn't be diplomatic, either. And Helsinki was not so critical a juncture as Ukraine or Crimea, which apparently got blessed by Trump in Helsinki.

---

Trump is quite diplomatic. You just dislike his brand of diplomacy.

---

And it's all about the brand, isn't it? What has this brand of isolationist diplomacy gotten us?

quash said:

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Trump did not put America first in Helsinki. At all.

---

How so?

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

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Trump did not put America first in Helsinki. At all.

---

How so?

---

Cracker please.

quash said:

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Cracker please.

---

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm surprised you don't get this, because I think Trump is trying to do what you and I have always wanted presidents to do.

I'll defer again to Chomsky, a socially left libertarian like yourself, a quack in the eyes of the establishment, but a man who's spent his whole career being right about foreign policy when everyone else was wrong:

Quote:

---

So why are the Democrats focusing on this? In fact, why are they focusing so much attention on the one element of Trump's programs which is fairly reasonable, the one ray of light in this gloom: trying to reduce tensions with Russia? That's--the tensions on the Russian border are extremely serious. They could escalate to a major terminal war. Efforts to try to reduce them should be welcomed. Just a couple of days ago, the former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Jack Matlock, came out and said he just can't believe that so much attention is being paid to apparent efforts by the incoming administration to establish connections with Russia. He said, "Sure, that's just what they ought to be doing."

---

quash said:

---

GolemIII said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

An effort. A little tiny bit of effort. What is provocative is not the lack of effort, but the backstabbing.

Whatever happened to America First?

---

There was no backstabbing. I will say one thing: if Trump had done what everyone seems to think he should have done, if he'd stood there at the most critical juncture in US/Russia relations since the Cold War and called Putin a liar publicly and to his face, you'd be right to say he doesn't value diplomacy.

---

That wouldn't be diplomatic, either. And Helsinki was not so critical a juncture as Ukraine or Crimea, which apparently got blessed by Trump in Helsinki.

---

Trump is quite diplomatic. You just dislike his brand of diplomacy.

---

And it's all about the brand, isn't it? What has this brand of isolationist diplomacy gotten us?

---

You don't seem to understand what isolationist means. But then you don't understand a great many things.

Sam Lowry said:

---

HuMcK said:

---

He should never have been on a stage next to Putin to begin with. With all that has gone on in recent years with Russia, plus the allegations and activities that remain under investigation, going to meet Putin wasnt't diplomacy it was supplication. Meeting Putin on his home turf without any overture or change in behavior continues to make no sense at all, especially right on the heels of the Skripal poisoning, not to mention what happened 2016.

---

See, now this is what real contempt for diplomacy looks like. And it's the real reason Trump is so disliked. It's the same attitude the hawks have displayed toward Iraq, North Korea, and Iran, and it's never been productive.

---

They were neocons all along

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

An effort. A little tiny bit of effort. What is provocative is not the lack of effort, but the backstabbing.

Whatever happened to America First?

---

There was no backstabbing. I will say one thing: if Trump had done what everyone seems to think he should have done, if he'd stood there at the most critical juncture in US/Russia relations since the Cold War and called Putin a liar publicly and to his face, you'd be right to say he doesn't value diplomacy.

---

That wouldn't be diplomatic, either. And Helsinki was not so critical a juncture as Ukraine or Crimea, which apparently got blessed by Trump in Helsinki.

---

Then you're OK with a CIA / NGO overthrow of an elected government in Ukraine? Remember many of those protesting in Ukraine for the overthrow were dreaded NAZEEEEEES!!!!

Why would you be against a 90+ % turnout and a 90+ % consensus vote of the citizens of Crimea to rejoin Russia? Let me guess...the election was a fraud and there were KGB agents holding guns to citizens heads in the voting booths

Why don't you want a friendly relationship with Russia? Putin is a genocidal monster?????

Isn't peace one of the pillars of Libertarianism or is it just peace under anyone but Trump?

Michael Cohen hired Lanny Davis to defend him in the Russia Special Counsel investigation. Lanny convinced Cohen to plead guilty to campaign finance violations which even Alan Dershowitz has said were not crimes.

This email from Lanny to Hillary (from Wikileaks) proves he's a freaking Hillary sycophant:

https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/29609#efmAPeAPsAP6AP7AR6ASrAT5AVBAXfAYPBmcBrI

Lawyer Cohen (Lanny Davis) to Clinton:

Quote:

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The honest to goodness truth is, : Aside from Carolyn, my four children, and my immediate family, I consider you to be the best friend and the best person I have met in my long life. You know that from the dedication and appreciation of you I have always felt and expressed to you over four decades.

---

And:

Quote:

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I am registered under FARA for one or more foreign governments or businesses.

---

For which countries and businesses was/is Lanny Davis registered to work for under FARA (Foreign Agents Registration Act)

indeed Ukraine: https://www.conservativereview.com/news/michael-cohen-attorney-lanny-davis-is-on-the-payroll-of-a-putin-ally/

THERE IS A DIRECT LINK BETWEEN THE LAWYER OF COHEN AND PUTIN. YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS UP!

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Cracker please.

---

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm surprised you don't get this, because I think Trump is trying to do what you and I have always wanted presidents to do.

I'll defer again to Chomsky, a socially left libertarian like yourself, a quack in the eyes of the establishment, but a man who's spent his whole career being right about foreign policy when everyone else was wrong:

Quote:

---

So why are the Democrats focusing on this? In fact, why are they focusing so much attention on the one element of Trump's programs which is fairly reasonable, the one ray of light in this gloom: trying to reduce tensions with Russia? That's--the tensions on the Russian border are extremely serious. They could escalate to a major terminal war. Efforts to try to reduce them should be welcomed. Just a couple of days ago, the former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Jack Matlock, came out and said he just can't believe that so much attention is being paid to apparent efforts by the incoming administration to establish connections with Russia. He said, "Sure, that's just what they ought to be doing."

---

---

Connections are fine. Efforts to reduce tensions are fine. But let's make it real, not this Neville Chamberlain repetition stuff. And I've said this before about Chomsky: the guy spots problems really well, but he is often short on solutions. Comes off whiny as a result. But at least he's provocative. Trump got that part right.

ValhallaBear said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

An effort. A little tiny bit of effort. What is provocative is not the lack of effort, but the backstabbing.

Whatever happened to America First?

---

There was no backstabbing. I will say one thing: if Trump had done what everyone seems to think he should have done, if he'd stood there at the most critical juncture in US/Russia relations since the Cold War and called Putin a liar publicly and to his face, you'd be right to say he doesn't value diplomacy.

---

That wouldn't be diplomatic, either. And Helsinki was not so critical a juncture as Ukraine or Crimea, which apparently got blessed by Trump in Helsinki.

---

Then you're OK with a CIA / NGO overthrow of an elected government in Ukraine? Remember many of those protesting in Ukraine for the overthrow were dreaded NAZEEEEEES!!!!

Why would you be against a 90+ % turnout and a 90+ % consensus vote of the citizens of Crimea to rejoin Russia? Let me guess...the election was a fraud and there were KGB agents holding guns to citizens heads in the voting booths

Why don't you want a friendly relationship with Russia? Putin is a genocidal monster?????

Isn't peace one of the pillars of Libertarianism or is it just peace under anyone but Trump?

---

Tell you what, snowflake, when you come out of your safe space and address what I actually said I might even answer a valid question or two.

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Cracker please.

---

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm surprised you don't get this, because I think Trump is trying to do what you and I have always wanted presidents to do.

I'll defer again to Chomsky, a socially left libertarian like yourself, a quack in the eyes of the establishment, but a man who's spent his whole career being right about foreign policy when everyone else was wrong:

Quote:

---

So why are the Democrats focusing on this? In fact, why are they focusing so much attention on the one element of Trump's programs which is fairly reasonable, the one ray of light in this gloom: trying to reduce tensions with Russia? That's--the tensions on the Russian border are extremely serious. They could escalate to a major terminal war. Efforts to try to reduce them should be welcomed. Just a couple of days ago, the former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Jack Matlock, came out and said he just can't believe that so much attention is being paid to apparent efforts by the incoming administration to establish connections with Russia. He said, "Sure, that's just what they ought to be doing."

---

---

Connections are fine. Efforts to reduce tensions are fine. But let's make it real, not this Neville Chamberlain repetition stuff. And I've said this before about Chomsky: the guy spots problems really well, but he is often short on solutions. Comes off whiny as a result. But at least he's provocative. Trump got that part right.

---

Are you ready to go to war with Russia over Ukraine and Crimea?

---

Let's be honest. He's ready to go to war with Russia over Hillary losing the election.

GolemIII said:

---

quash said:

---

GolemIII said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

An effort. A little tiny bit of effort. What is provocative is not the lack of effort, but the backstabbing.

Whatever happened to America First?

---

There was no backstabbing. I will say one thing: if Trump had done what everyone seems to think he should have done, if he'd stood there at the most critical juncture in US/Russia relations since the Cold War and called Putin a liar publicly and to his face, you'd be right to say he doesn't value diplomacy.

---

That wouldn't be diplomatic, either. And Helsinki was not so critical a juncture as Ukraine or Crimea, which apparently got blessed by Trump in Helsinki.

---

Trump is quite diplomatic. You just dislike his brand of diplomacy.

---

And it's all about the brand, isn't it? What has this brand of isolationist diplomacy gotten us?

---

You don't seem to understand what isolationist means. But then you don't understand a great many things.

---

Under Trump we have withdrawn from treaties, agreements, trade associations. We started a trade war with neighbors and allies because they're easy to win. Nice to despots, ******* to friends. Travel bans, family separation policies. Threats to withdraw from NATO. If it involves international cooperation we're agin it.

Show me the diplomatic gains (he asked again).

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Cracker please.

---

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm surprised you don't get this, because I think Trump is trying to do what you and I have always wanted presidents to do.

I'll defer again to Chomsky, a socially left libertarian like yourself, a quack in the eyes of the establishment, but a man who's spent his whole career being right about foreign policy when everyone else was wrong:

Quote:

---

So why are the Democrats focusing on this? In fact, why are they focusing so much attention on the one element of Trump's programs which is fairly reasonable, the one ray of light in this gloom: trying to reduce tensions with Russia? That's--the tensions on the Russian border are extremely serious. They could escalate to a major terminal war. Efforts to try to reduce them should be welcomed. Just a couple of days ago, the former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Jack Matlock, came out and said he just can't believe that so much attention is being paid to apparent efforts by the incoming administration to establish connections with Russia. He said, "Sure, that's just what they ought to be doing."

---

---

Connections are fine. Efforts to reduce tensions are fine. But let's make it real, not this Neville Chamberlain repetition stuff. And I've said this before about Chomsky: the guy spots problems really well, but he is often short on solutions. Comes off whiny as a result. But at least he's provocative. Trump got that part right.

---

Are you ready to go to war with Russia over Ukraine and Crimea?

---

Not sure why you're asking me that. Hell no. But there are measures way short of that that can be useful. Lay out standards (no more poisonings, stay out of our election apparatus, withdraw troops from Syria, etc.) and be consistent in when those standards are not met. Instead Trump has delayed sanctions, asked to end the time out from G8, and given Putin face time in Helsinki with nothing to show for it.

quash said:

---

Not sure why you're asking me that. Hell no. But there are measures way short of that that can be useful. Lay out standards (no more poisonings, stay out of our election apparatus, withdraw troops from Syria, etc.) and be consistent in when those standards are not met. Instead Trump has delayed sanctions, asked to end the time out from G8, and given Putin face time in Helsinki with nothing to show for it.

---

I ask because you referred to Neville Chamberlain. That and your reference to Ukraine and Crimea as critical junctures make it sound like there's an imminent threat of Russia invading Europe, or something, if we don't take decisive action now.

I don't think it's that kind of situation. Trump is making judgment calls about how to handle particular issues, with the larger goal of improving relations. I can't say those judgments are obviously wrong, much less the kind of wrong that lives on in infamy through the ages.

Still waiting for the Armageddon, "night cometh" thing to happen over that Cohen flip.

Running out of steam much..........??

(Like all of those other "sure fire gotchas" you Wile E. Coyote types have slobbered over??)

Johnny Bear said:

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Still waiting for the Armageddon, "night cometh" thing to happen over that Cohen flip.

Running out of steam much..........??

(Like all of those other "sure fire gotchas" you Wile E. Coyote types have slobbered over??)

---

LJ, I see you poked your head up from the cube farm to spew Trumpian pablum. You got $1,000 that Cohen doesn't flip?

Johnny Bear said:

---

Still waiting for the Armageddon, "night cometh" thing to happen over that Cohen flip.

Running out of steam much..........??

(Like all of those other "sure fire gotchas" you Wile E. Coyote types have slobbered over??)

---

haven't you heard? night is here...

Johnny Bear said:

---

Still waiting for the Armageddon, "night cometh" thing to happen over that Cohen flip.

Running out of steam much..........??

(Like all of those other "sure fire gotchas" you Wile E. Coyote types have slobbered over??)

---

Who here made that claim?

Most of us are waiting for the end of the investigation, not crying that the sky is falling like Doc and the Coup Cucks Clan.

For those wondering, the reason Nunes and Burr have largely refused to share any of the Russia-investigation related private testimony with Mueller is because it gives him leverage to do stuff like this. Public reporting indicates Don Jr. and Bannon in particular would probably be opened up to similar charges if Mueller ever gets their transcribed testimony.