El Oso said:

---

You're right--you didn't lie about what he said--you just selectively quoted it.

---

I don't know why you insist on picking fights, when we have a really good topic at hand, with all sorts of productive possibilities.

I only responded with my link to show one clear example where your accusation was false. I'd suggest you move on to more fruitful prospects.

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

YHWH or FSM? Because the FSM says right up front that when he intervenes supernaturally he erases all evidence that he did so. YHWH should have said that a long time ago.


Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Not sure where my reply went, will try to reconstruct it.

A long time ago YHWH should have done what the FSM did: declare that every act of supernatural intervention was accompanied by the erasing of all evidence of supernatural intervention.

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I took as an expression of openmindedness, not his chosen belief.

quash said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

YHWH or FSM? Because the FSM says right up front that when he intervenes supernaturally he erases all evidence that he did so. YHWH should have said that a long time ago.


Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Not sure where my reply went, will try to reconstruct it.

A long time ago YHWH should have done what the FSM did: declare that every act of supernatural intervention was accompanied by the erasing of all evidence of supernatural intervention.

---

But that wouldn't necessarily be true. There is what may well be physical and testimonial evidence of supernatural intervention at Jericho. As always, the question is how to interpret it.

Easily God is not the God of Aphysics but the God of Love.

Waco1947 said:

---

Easily God is not the God of Aphysics but the God of Love.

---

See my post on page 6 (1:01p 11/09/18.)

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

Not sure how you concluded that, but let's talk serendipity.

You've been a slave nation for 400 years. Almost none of you are literate. Almost none of you have an education. And almost none of you have any military training.

This guy talks to a burning bush, comes to rescue you through 10 plagues--none of which affect you, leads you to the edge of a sea whose waters part, and you walk across on DRY ground. Meanwhile, the pissed of pharaoh catches up with you only to get stuck and drown when the sea goes back to normal. Then you find yourself in the middle of this desert with nothing so it does this weird rain thing every morning (except one) and you get food. Then your leader gets mad--hits a rock and water comes pouring out. Then your God gets super mad and turns a 6 day trip into a 40 year adventure. Finally you arrive at the promised land, that you have never been to, let alone know anything about, and that water thing happens again. Then you find yourself in front of this big city and the walls fall down.

No--there's absolutely no serendipity there.

That's not my interpretation of what happened--that's what they said happened. They wouldn't have known that the area is a seismic area and that this river is constantly dammed up. They could have very well been prepared to attack, an earthquake hits, the city falls down and their immediate response is--God. They wouldn't have even know an alternate reality existed. What happened fit their scheme. Never mind that there are other plausible explanations.

Look, i don't know what happened. Like I said earlier--if I did--I wouldn't need faith. If I don't need faith--I really have no need for God. His serendipity only seems to apply to Israelite's and a few random people of--faith--along the way.

There's no way a logical person would ever conclude God is a god of serendipity from strictly reading the text. /sarcasm

What I really think: this nation escaped with the help of God, did some awesome things with the help of God, and like most of us--embellished the **** out of what really happened as the story past down from generation to generation.

Go read an American history book sometime--we do something very similar with our history. Some of us add God to it. Some of us don't.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I bring it up to consider all possible scenarios. I like to make decisions based on as much information as I can get my hands on if at all possible.

I grew up in the church. I've been to Dallas Bible College, Criswell Bible College, Ft Worth Theological Seminary, Baylor University, I majored in history and English.

This stuff--it's in my wheel house of things I'm interested in outside of guns and bourbon.

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I took as an expression of openmindedness, not his chosen belief.

---

Do you say that when someone says something with which you do not agree? Experience suggests 'no'.

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I took as an expression of openmindedness, not his chosen belief.

---

Do you say that when someone says something with which you do not agree? Experience suggests 'no'.

---

Are you totally sure you're not the one picking fights here? I'm just checking.

El Oso said:

---

Go read an American history book sometime--we do something very similar with our history. Some of us add God to it. Some of us don't.

---

I have read more than a hundred books on History. You may be comfortable assuming that, when in doubt, the Bible is a work of Man. I find reason to count God's word as His word, with Man only the pen writing what God says.

The words in Scripture have greater import, say, than 'Das Kapital' or 'An Inconvenient Truth' for good reason.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I took as an expression of openmindedness, not his chosen belief.

---

Do you say that when someone says something with which you do not agree? Experience suggests 'no'.

---

Are you totally sure you're not the one picking fights here? I'm just checking.

---

Yup. At least in this thread, I'm not calling anyone a liar just for an honest opinion with support, for example.

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I bring it up to consider all possible scenarios. I like to make decisions based on as much information as I can get my hands on if at all possible.

I grew up in the church. I've been to Dallas Bible College, Criswell Bible College, Ft Worth Theological Seminary, Baylor University, I majored in history and English.

This stuff--it's in my wheel house of things I'm interested in outside of guns and bourbon.

---

Me too, albeit in a different way. I have listened to and spoken with Sufis, Buddhists, Pagans ... all sorts of people from many places.

I find conversation far more enlightening than the lectures of self-important egotists. God lives and breathes through working people and people who see real trials and miracles.

Strange but also sad, in a way, that the Bible is more respected in many places where American 'Christians' have never been, never got to understand what makes the Bible matter.

Waco1947 said:

---

Easily God is not the God of Aphysics but the God of Love.

---

I'm certainly not denying He is the God of Love. However, is he limited to that?

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I took as an expression of openmindedness, not his chosen belief.

---

Do you say that when someone says something with which you do not agree? Experience suggests 'no'.

---

I do not agree with him in this instance. Put that in your experience.

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I took as an expression of openmindedness, not his chosen belief.

---

Do you say that when someone says something with which you do not agree? Experience suggests 'no'.

---

I do not agree with him in this instance. Put that in your experience.

---

Please elaborate.

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I took as an expression of openmindedness, not his chosen belief.

---

Do you say that when someone says something with which you do not agree? Experience suggests 'no'.

---

I do not agree with him in this instance. Put that in your experience.

---

Please elaborate.

---

It's all above, but OK.

He lands in the faith camp, I do not.

And yet he is still willing to look, carefully, at the evidence. I get that, having minored in history and English, and that analysis can produce supported opinions that are different.

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Ah. So your god is named 'serendipity', it seems.

---

I haven't stated my theory on the Joshua stories.

Maybe you can point it out so we can discuss if it's serendipity.

---

Just observing your comments. No reason to bring it up, if you don't believe it.

---

I took as an expression of openmindedness, not his chosen belief.

---

Do you say that when someone says something with which you do not agree? Experience suggests 'no'.

---

I do not agree with him in this instance. Put that in your experience.

---

Please elaborate.

---

It's all above, but OK.

He lands in the faith camp, I do not.

And yet he is still willing to look, carefully, at the evidence. I get that, having minored in history and English, and that analysis can produce supported opinions that are different.

---

Thank you.

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

El Oso said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

quash said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

YHWH or FSM? Because the FSM says right up front that when he intervenes supernaturally he erases all evidence that he did so. YHWH should have said that a long time ago.


Maybe Jericho was destroyed by man.

---

Well, believe that if you need to.

---

Or an earthquake. Either is plausible with the evidence we have.

---

Convenient timing, in that case, wouldn't you say?

---

What timing? Do you know, first, when Joshua was there, and second, when the walls fell?

---

Earthquakes happen frequently in the area. So frequently in fact that debris often falls in the Jordan River and dams it up creating patches of dry ground one can use to cross the river.

Funny--I seem to remember the Israelite's crossing the Jordan as they entered Canaan.

Did the Israelites confuse two separate common occurrences of a land they had never seen with acts of God? Did God use nature to enforce his will? Or did God do those things and we use what we know to explain him away?

---

Not sure where my reply went, will try to reconstruct it.

A long time ago YHWH should have done what the FSM did: declare that every act of supernatural intervention was accompanied by the erasing of all evidence of supernatural intervention.

---

But that wouldn't necessarily be true. There is what may well be physical and testimonial evidence of supernatural intervention at Jericho. As always, the question is how to interpret it.

---

The walls are down. That happened to just about every walled city around. Repeatedly. And for one of those cities, for one of those times, there is a claim that this time it was a supernatural event.

I see a high percentage chance that it was a natural event.

As to different religions with archaeological support, try Celtic Ireland and Scotland and Cornwall, etc. Every lake and mountain is the result of some supernatural event. Finn scooped this, Finn piled up that. The proof of their stories is literally written in the landscape. But today we call that mythology.

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

TexasScientist said:

---

This article, published in a religious tabloid, doesn't give credibility to the story. The tabloid claims it is quoting a video interview with Dr. Andrew George where he states "this is a very strong piece of evidence that the tower of Babel story was inspired by this real building." It's in reference to an inscription about a to a temple tower. It has nothing do with the truthfulness of the story or if the temple tower is the tower of the story.

The existence of courses in Biblical archaeological studies has nothing to do with the reliability or credibility of the Bible history book. It's a religious book written with a historic setting as a backdrop.

---

Hypothetically, if the Bible were credible history and not historical fiction, how would the available evidence differ?

---

It would be the same if Michener's Texas were credible history and not historical fiction. You would still have to weed the history out of the fiction.

---

See my post immediately above. You still haven't told me what kind of evidence you're looking for.

---

How about a cast iron plaque marking a pile of tower rubble with the inscription: I destroyed this tower to demonstrate my power and to punish man for foolishly thinking I live in the sky - Yahweh

---

A cast iron artifact purporting to predate the patriarchal age would be instantly recognized as a hoax. Got anything else?

---

How about an angel standing there, reading the plaque out loud to all who can hear?

---

There's nothing like that in the text, so why would you expect to find it?

---

I think you asked what kind of evidence I'm looking for. If you confine the evidence to what's in the text, doesn't that limit God's ability to demonstrate who he is to the world?

---

No, I was going to get to that later. I'm asking how the historical and archaeological record differs from what you'd actually expect to find if the text were accurate. You chose Babel as an example, which should be an easy one since almost no one considers the first eleven chapters of Genesis to be reliable. A better case might be Jericho since there's no question that it exists.

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Actually, I didn't bring up Babel as an example. I just commented on it. The historical and archaeological records are what they are irrespective of the text's accuracy. In the case of Jericho, wouldn't you expect a jealous god, who is all powerful, all knowing, and demanding of worship and credit for who he is to leave clear evidence of his supernatural involvement? Something more evidentiary than competing tales of primitive people, generated to show their god is bigger and more powerful than the gods of competing religions?

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I have no idea what to expect from God other than what I see in the record. If you have any special knowledge, that's what I'd like to get at.

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I only have the evidence of reality, rational thought, and reason. All of that tells me that, if Jericho mentioned existed, and the if the walls and city were destroyed, it is not believable that Yahweh did it. I find it interesting that some cherry pick what they want to believe from a book of primitive tales that originate from an oral tradition. Once some part becomes so convincingly ludicrous they discard that part, but cling to the rest. I think it mostly has to do with being raised in a tradition that teaches one to place unquestioning faith in that tradition. People are reluctant to question what they were raised on as truth.

I think there's a lot of truth to the last part of your post.

The fastest dying part if the church is people between the ages of 18-30. Coincidentally that's the time period of full brain development and rational thought becomes so important.

All my questions were met with because the Bible says so. My retort was there's no other source in the world you believe just because it says so. That was met with well the bible's different.

Things spiraled down from there.

I challenge my kids when they heard certain bible stories at church. Not to turn them off, but to let them know there is at least one person out there who will be willing to talk about their questions when the time comes.

I didn't meet that person until I was in my late 30s. I want them to meet theirs much earlier.

El Oso said:

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I think there's a lot of truth to the last part of your post.

The fastest dying part if the church is people between the ages of 18-30. Coincidentally that's the time period of full brain development and rational thought becomes so important.

All my questions were met with because the Bible says so. My retort was there's no other source in the world you believe just because it says so. That was met with well the bible's different.

Things spiraled down from there.

I challenge my kids when they heard certain bible stories at church. Not to turn them off, but to let them know there is at least one person out there who will be willing to talk about their questions when the time comes.

I didn't meet that person until I was in my late 30s. I want them to meet theirs much earlier.

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Excellent witness. My father was like your fathering.

Quash you are right about walls falling naturally and by invading armies. It saddens me that Christians argue these stories on historicity.
These people of faith saw in these events the hand of God. The story reinforces the faith of Hebrews in their God.
The story raises all kinds of theologically and faith issues which are hugely more important and relevant to people of faith and seekers.
1). God uses a prostitute for salvation if his people
2). A city is destroyed at the hand of God? Women and children too? What kind of God does that?
3). What is a modern faith Jericho for us? What city or what institution or issue or cause do we march around today so institutional walls come tumbling down? Pro tip "It ain't gay marriage."
Think more along the lines of racism and poverty and children's health and education

TexasScientist said:

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I find it interesting that some cherry pick what they want to believe from a book of primitive tales that originate from an oral tradition. Once some part becomes so convincingly ludicrous they discard that part, but cling to the rest.

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It's not cherry picking. It gets that label because it's easier to put us in a box and refute our claims. But that isn't what we are doing.

Every story in the OT his a historic story. True or false--it's a part of somebody's historic narrative.

You have to remember--these are primitive people telling stories dozens of years after the fact and the primary source was oral tradition and dead.

I'm not denying the story is true--I'm wondering if it has (and I know it does) embellishment and what that embellishment is.

But it doesn't just happen in stories that are thousands of years old. I have a real life example that is around 40 years old.

A few months ago I told you about a car wreck I was involved in when I was a kid. You asked are you sure. I said yes.

I haven't been to the scene of the crime (it was a criminal act), in 35+ years. But you got me to wondering, so I did some research.

The width of the two vehicles in question placed side by side is 9.5 ft. Under current Arkansas law, the minimum width of a one lane bridge is 10.5ft (that's the law today--that may or may not be what it was nearly 40 years ago). Let's assume it was the same back then.

That means there are 12 inches of extra space on that bridge. My six year old brain didn't see it that way. Dad drove down the middle of that bridge every time we drove across. I mean--who drives right up on the rail? Besides--I'd never seen two cars cross it at the same time. Of course when 13 year old me saw it seven years later--it still looked like only one car could cross. I didn't have a license. I had no frame of reference for navigating TWO cars over a ONE lane bridge. My mind confirmed what I already "knew."

To you--that extra foot is enough to completely debunk my brother's claim that he saw an angel with a fiery sword standing in between the two cars.

To me--he still has a valid claim. Why? 1 foot of wiggle room is not a lot of room for 2 non professional drivers to operate 2 cars at a high rate of speed across a one lane bridge. Secondly, one of those drivers was intoxicated. Who's to say that angel didn't make it so the cars side swiped instead of hitting head on?

Have I embellished the story over time. Almost assuredly, I have. Does that change the meaning of what happened? To some it does; others will see it the same way as when I told it the first time--a guardian angel saved the life of my family when I was 6 years old.

There are two things I see recurring in this thread, which I think are unfortunate:

1. The assumption that if a claim for supernatural action is made, the writer is either misinterpreting some natural phenomenon, or has exaggerated what happened; and

2. The assumption that ancient people were more credulous or less observant than modern people.

The first point ignores the larger context of the events. The people who point to the Hebrews crossing the Red Sea because of shallow water or earthquakes etc., ignore that the text goes on to say the Egyptian army pursuing was drowned by that same sea. We are forced to either reject the claim or believe it - the idea that we can explain away some and ignore some completely is not a reasonable choice, in my opinion.

As to point 2, people of that time may not know the science we have today, but they absolutely would recognize an event where something strange happened. Weather and geography were understood well enough. The fall of Jericho is described in enough detail to rule out earthquakes or bad engineering. Again, people may disbelieve if they choose, but if we believe the account at all, it would be dishonoring the people who swore to the event, to water down the account so God fits into a convenient box.

I wrote earlier that I have found many people outside the United States who believe the Bible as written for the accounts of miracles, and it's not because those people are ignorant or naive. Rather, they have life experiences which align with the message from such accounts.

I understand that many here have never witnessed a miracle. After all, by definition miracles are rare and not done to show off or satisfy human judges. But miracles do happen, and the accounts of them in Scripture deserve better than to be dismissed just because they are ancient.

Maybe it isn't people assuming things--maybe it's you misreading things or applying what was said about one thing to another thing. (Not only does that confuse you--it confuses the issue.)

I NEVER said the Red Sea was parted by an earthquake. I DID say that is entirely possible that the Jordan River WAS parted by an earthquake that spilled debris into the river. This is a common occurrence that is still observed today.

Rivers and seas are vastly different bodies of water. One is in a seismic area--the other is not.

I suggest you read things as they are written--not as you wish they were or what you thought you saw.

El Oso said:

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Maybe it isn't people assuming things--maybe it's you misreading things or applying what was said about one thing to another thing. (Not only does that confuse you--it confuses the issue.)

I NEVER said the Red Sea was parted by an earthquake. I DID say that is entirely possible that the Jordan River WAS parted by an earthquake that spilled debris into the river. This is a common occurrence that is still observed today.

Rivers and seas are vastly different bodies of water. One is in a seismic area--the other is not.

I suggest you read things as they are written--not as you wish they were or what you thought you saw.

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I suggest you stop assuming I am "misreading", just because I post something with which you disagree.

I referenced the Red Sea in the context of miracles cited in Scripture, and because the Jordan River is irrelevant to the account in Exodus. While you did not mention the Red Sea crossing as a matter of shallow water or other mundane conditions, other people have, and I addressed that behavior in the scope of people who dilute miracles in order to explain away the Supernatural.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2868352/How-Red-Sea-really-parted-Moses-used-knowledge-tides-ensure-safe-crossing-Israelites-instead-waiting-miracle-expert-claims.html

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/21/where-did-waters-part-for-moses-not-where-you-think/

http://migdolbook.com/crossing-red-sea-aqaba-no.html


You chose to bring up the river in one context. I brought the Red Sea up in another.

By the way, earthquakes occurring in the 21st Century may not have occurred in the 10th Century BC. I do know enough to recall that a number of factors drive earthquake propagation, which are often related to weather, changing environment, and erosion, among other things.

Here's the problem. You keep jumping back and forth between what is said on this thread and what others have said in some blog you read. This is all very confusing to follow because your pronoun use and antecedents are terrible and lead to mass confusion when read.

I've assumed nothing about you outside of the belief that you are an inerrentist and your entire faith would crumble if every word in the Bible were not a literal truth. It's starting to become more than an assumption.

I don't assume anything about the stories in the Bible either. Everything I've said is documented facts. Yes, earthquakes today are going to be different than those 6,000 years ago, but the fact remains there is documented evidence of earthquakes damming up the Jordan River 6,000 years ago.

When something odd happens--my first thought is cool. After that, I begin looking for a logical explanation. If I can find one--great. That doesn't mean if I found one it doesn't undo the coolness of what happened. If I can't find one--I keep thinking but do wonder about miracles.

Case in point. The walls fell down, outward and one section stayed up. That's pretty amazing. Considering God controls the earth--he caused that earthquake. In other words--he made it happen.

Now, I'm a primitive person. I've never seen an earthquake. All I know is I was blowing this trumpet and something very weird happened. I've got nothing to base it on--so sure, why not, my trumpet did it through the power of God.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter which one happened. Both were caused by God.

Unfortunately for you, the only way God was involved was if the trumpet is what did it.

If God did it--why does the how matter?

Because of what was specifically reported. It's accurate or it is not.

Oldbear83 said:

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Because of what was specifically reported. It's accurate or it is not.

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It's specifically reported by people with limited knowledge. First hand accounts are often wrong. We're too wrapped up in what happened to often be accurate about it. We say what we perceived happened.

And in reality, these aren't first hand accounts. Nobody knew how to write, so the stories were passed down from generation to generation. This happened up until, during, or just after the Babylonian exile when somebody started writing the stories down.

But these--these stories survived perfectly for 1400 years? )If that's what you actually believe--you've just proved my assumption about you to be true.)

This isn't possible. The reporting of history is flawed. And that's all this is--the history of the world through the eyes of the Jews.

I just posted a miraculous true story a few posts up from this. My six and 13 year old mind didn't work the same way my 40 year old mind works.

I experienced an event. I reviisted that event and confirmed beliefs a few years later. Now I have pulled legal data that slightly contradicts the "facts" I believed to be true 35 years ago. It doesn't change the "miracle."

It does for texasscientist (and there are many people like him to be sure), but it doesn't for me or most of the people on this board who read the story. God was still involved--just not in the same way I once believed.

I tend to agree with El Oso on this point. I don't think it diminishes the "miracle" of the event. Just because a miracle has a logical explanation doesn't mean that isn't still a miracle. God instructed his people on what to do to bring the walls down. They followed His directions and he gave them an earthquake. That's still a miracle.

Having said that, could the horn blasts have made the walls crumble. Yes, I believe that God could have allowed this to happen somehow.

The same holds true for me with the 10 plagues. For many years, I truly thought that Charleston Heston was able to call each one of the plagues to happen: Blood, frogs, flies, boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and death. I'll still watch, because I love the story.

After a great deal of research, I understand that the Nile does turn red from algae blooms. Maybe it was the worst event in the history of Egypt. This causes the frogs to come out of the river (and fish to die). As they die, the flies and other insects are inevitable. The flies bring disease and boils.

These are natural events, but I believe that they were inspired by God to happen when they happen. Maybe Charleston Heston told the Ramses II about them in advance. God provided him that knowledge. It doesn't discredit the miracle.

The same thing with Elijah and the prophets of Baal. I believe that God sent the lightning down on Elijah's bonfire when he prayed for it. Miracle.

El Oso said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Because of what was specifically reported. It's accurate or it is not.

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It's specifically reported by people with limited knowledge. First hand accounts are often wrong.

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You seem to be treating Scripture as no different than, say, a local newspaper.

Agree to disagree, I think.