This thread is supposed to be closed to my comments - so - no comment.bearassnekkid said:Lol. You can apply whatever false label to my beliefs you want, but it just makes you look intolerant and foolish.TexasScientist said:
No comment on psychosis.
Pro tip: being smarmy and doing the faux-cocky thing is a horrible way to sway the hearts and minds of those you are attempting to influence. (That is your stated goal, right? To change the minds of us deluded simpletons?) I realize this is the preferred tactic of the atheist "stars" you idolize on the internet, but they're only reaching their echo chamber. You should rethink your strategy.
Is God in control? 2nd Attempt
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Last: 5 yr ago by quash
And you brought up Gary Patterson why?TexasScientist said:
No comment on psychosis.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Terrific reply. But what is your very first premise?
Here it is "Others have alluded to it, but for me it is faith. Faith that is supported by the witness of creation (nature). It is also supported by a deep place in my soul that simply "knows", innately, that this is the truth of the universe. A whisper, if you will, that informs me that there is a God and that I was made to be in relationship with him (if I am honest and allow myself to hear it). "
Are these fair representations of your premises?
1). "My soul knows innately."
2) "The truth of the universe is in the witness of the universe."
Here it is "Others have alluded to it, but for me it is faith. Faith that is supported by the witness of creation (nature). It is also supported by a deep place in my soul that simply "knows", innately, that this is the truth of the universe. A whisper, if you will, that informs me that there is a God and that I was made to be in relationship with him (if I am honest and allow myself to hear it). "
Are these fair representations of your premises?
1). "My soul knows innately."
2) "The truth of the universe is in the witness of the universe."
Waco1947
Pretty close.Waco1947 said:
Terrific reply. But what is your very first premise?
Here it is "Others have alluded to it, but for me it is faith. Faith that is supported by the witness of creation (nature). It is also supported by a deep place in my soul that simply "knows", innately, that this is the truth of the universe. A whisper, if you will, that informs me that there is a God and that I was made to be in relationship with him (if I am honest and allow myself to hear it). "
Are these fair representations of your premises?
1). "My soul knows innately."
2) "The truth of the universe is in the witness of the universe."
As to #1, yes, there is something inside me that recognizes the reality of the existence of God. Like a shadow of something once seen or known more fully. C.S. Lewis described something similar when he said "If we find ourselves with a desire that nothing in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that we were made for another world."
As to the second, I would say that nature/science/physical laws of the universe bear witness to the fact that they were created by something outside themselves and by design.
What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Waco1947
A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Waco, for me, the question of control can be a relatively simple one to answer. What is more problematic is reconciling the certainty of God's control with His sovereignty.Waco1947 said:
Do you believe it?
What does it mean to you?
Is God in control of physics?
Tx Scientist if you want argue God is not in control then start your own thread.
I am trying to understand how people arrive at this faith statement.
I am not asking because I missed it in seminary but I am asking how disciples on this forum came to believe it.
1) Is God in control of events,
2) relationships
3) physics (physical forces - gravity, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc)
I am tired of you calling anyone who disagrees with you, including me, a liar.Oldbear83 said:That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That's not bitter. It's disgusted.
And I am EXTREMELY disgusted that any person of faith would support Donald Trump, the least Christ-like person I have ever encountered in national politics, which given the fact that Dick Cheney was our vice president, is saying a lot. At least Cheney stood up for his lesbian daughter against right-wing ire toward people who are openly gay. He was honest about one issue. If Trump tells the truth, it's either accidental or self-supporting; it has nothing to do with integrity.
You want respect and a real dialog? Stop equating disagreements with your political positions as lies.
I only call out liars when they tell lies, Jinx. Like pretending 'disagreement with [my] political position' is the motive for calling out thugs and criminals.Jinx 2 said:I am tired of you calling anyone who disagrees with you, including me, a liar.Oldbear83 said:That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That's not bitter. It's disgusted.
And I am EXTREMELY disgusted that any person of faith would support Donald Trump, the least Christ-like person I have ever encountered in national politics, which given the fact that Dick Cheney was our vice president, is saying a lot. At least Cheney stood up for his lesbian daughter against right-wing ire toward people who are openly gay. He was honest about one issue. If Trump tells the truth, it's either accidental or self-supporting; it has nothing to do with integrity.
You want respect and a real dialog? Stop equating disagreements with your political positions as lies.
I think your side is hurting itself - badly - because they have abandoned honesty and decency just to chase political power. So much so that voters in 30 states decided a bombastic ex-game show host was a better choice for President than the abomination the Democrats nominated. Now the same dirty tricks have put a once-undeniable swell of support for Democrats into jeopardy, because you knowingly defamed an honorable judge, and leftist financiers paid to lure thousands of Hondurans to swarm through Mexico, in a mob which included shooting at police and throwing homemade bombs.
Yes, you are bitter. And you have nobody to blame but yourself and your party for your situation.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
You're right. As long as people disagree, God must not exist.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
I stated that that I believe that nature/physical laws of the universe/etc imply that they were created. Outside of some "multiverse" hypothesis, it is unreasonable to assume that this came spontaneously from complete nothingness, and that the fine tuned laws of physics just happen to be exactly as necessary for life to exist (if even one of them was off by one degree of magnitude, the universe itself wouldn't exist, much less Life). If the universe was created, there was a Creator. I call that Creator "God."
If you're asking why I believe the "God of the Bible" is the creator (as opposed to some other religions version or some unknown creator), it's because my exploration and experience has resulted in a belief that the Bible is the actual creator's revelation to mankind concerning His nature, purpose, and plan for us as created beings. That belief is sustained through faith (which I consider a necessary part of our relationship with our creator given our fallen state), so my answer has come full circle.
OldBear, I generally put you on ignore because it's hopeless.Oldbear83 said:I only call out liars when they tell lies, Jinx. Like pretending 'disagreement with [my] political position' is the motive for calling out thugs and criminals.Jinx 2 said:I am tired of you calling anyone who disagrees with you, including me, a liar.Oldbear83 said:That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That's not bitter. It's disgusted.
And I am EXTREMELY disgusted that any person of faith would support Donald Trump, the least Christ-like person I have ever encountered in national politics, which given the fact that Dick Cheney was our vice president, is saying a lot. At least Cheney stood up for his lesbian daughter against right-wing ire toward people who are openly gay. He was honest about one issue. If Trump tells the truth, it's either accidental or self-supporting; it has nothing to do with integrity.
You want respect and a real dialog? Stop equating disagreements with your political positions as lies.
I think your side is hurting itself - badly - because they have abandoned honesty and decency just to chase political power. So much so that voters in 30 states decided a bombastic ex-game show host was a better choice for President than the abomination the Democrats nominated. Now the same dirty tricks have put a once-undeniable swell of support for Democrats into jeopardy, because you knowingly defamed an honorable judge, and leftist financiers paid to lure thousands of Hondurans to swarm through Mexico, in a mob which included shooting at police and throwing homemade bombs.
Yes, you are bitter. And you have nobody to blame but yourself and your party for your situation.
And, I'm not bitter; I'm disgusted. But I remain optimistic that Americans will reject the nastiness of Trump and efforts by Republicans to erode the democratic process so their candidates keep winning. A party that needs to suppress the vote in order to win, like Brian Kemp is trying to do, should revisit its policy positions.
But, if ANYONE is calling the thugs and criminals to do their worst, it's Donald Trump.
We've had 2 incidents in 2 weeks sparked by the hateful rhetoric that is a constant drumbeat on right-wing news sites--the pipe bombs from the guy whose car looked like a decoupage celebrating Fox News and Breitbart, and the racist shooting at a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Trump needs to tone down the rhetoric, but he won't, because he only wins by "riling up the crazies."
I fear hispanics will be the next target because Trump won't stop agitating about the "caravan" of refugees when (1) it's more than a thousand miles away, "(2) lots of the people are seeking asylum in Mexico, so the group is growing smaller as it travels; (3) they are refugees fleeing violence and extortion in their home country traveling together because that's safer and less costly than paying a "coyote" to smuggle them in.
Let me be clear in stating that we do not have to give asylum to every refugee who shows up at our borders. But we do have a process for that, and perhaps rather than deploying our military, which costs a lot and is solely for the purpose of political grandstanding, Trump should have deployed a small army of immigration judges and lawyers to greet these people at the border and process their claims. With unemployment at a low, we need some of those people. Some will have valid fears; some not.
And whatever happened Matthew 25:35: For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.
I do not believe that my version of Christianity is the only correct version. I do not judge other denominations or religions for that is God's role, not mine. I only know that eternity is provided by belief in Jesus. Man has certainly tainted all religions and done horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that is not God's fault.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
You are confusing the Bible with the role of government. They are not the same thing.Jinx 2 said:OldBear, I generally put you on ignore because it's hopeless.Oldbear83 said:I only call out liars when they tell lies, Jinx. Like pretending 'disagreement with [my] political position' is the motive for calling out thugs and criminals.Jinx 2 said:I am tired of you calling anyone who disagrees with you, including me, a liar.Oldbear83 said:That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That's not bitter. It's disgusted.
And I am EXTREMELY disgusted that any person of faith would support Donald Trump, the least Christ-like person I have ever encountered in national politics, which given the fact that Dick Cheney was our vice president, is saying a lot. At least Cheney stood up for his lesbian daughter against right-wing ire toward people who are openly gay. He was honest about one issue. If Trump tells the truth, it's either accidental or self-supporting; it has nothing to do with integrity.
You want respect and a real dialog? Stop equating disagreements with your political positions as lies.
I think your side is hurting itself - badly - because they have abandoned honesty and decency just to chase political power. So much so that voters in 30 states decided a bombastic ex-game show host was a better choice for President than the abomination the Democrats nominated. Now the same dirty tricks have put a once-undeniable swell of support for Democrats into jeopardy, because you knowingly defamed an honorable judge, and leftist financiers paid to lure thousands of Hondurans to swarm through Mexico, in a mob which included shooting at police and throwing homemade bombs.
Yes, you are bitter. And you have nobody to blame but yourself and your party for your situation.
And, I'm not bitter; I'm disgusted. But I remain optimistic that Americans will reject the nastiness of Trump and efforts by Republicans to erode the democratic process so their candidates keep winning. A party that needs to suppress the vote in order to win, like Brian Kemp is trying to do, should revisit its policy positions.
But, if ANYONE is calling the thugs and criminals to do their worst, it's Donald Trump.
We've had 2 incidents in 2 weeks sparked by the hateful rhetoric that is a constant drumbeat on right-wing news sites--the pipe bombs from the guy whose car looked like a decoupage celebrating Fox News and Breitbart, and the racist shooting at a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Trump needs to tone down the rhetoric, but he won't, because he only wins by "riling up the crazies."
I fear hispanics will be the next target because Trump won't stop agitating about the "caravan" of refugees when (1) it's more than a thousand miles away, "(2) lots of the people are seeking asylum in Mexico, so the group is growing smaller as it travels; (3) they are refugees fleeing violence and extortion in their home country traveling together because that's safer and less costly than paying a "coyote" to smuggle them in.
Let me be clear in stating that we do not have to give asylum to every refugee who shows up at our borders. But we do have a process for that, and perhaps rather than deploying our military, which costs a lot and is solely for the purpose of political grandstanding, Trump should have deployed a small army of immigration judges and lawyers to greet these people at the border and process their claims. With unemployment at a low, we need some of those people. Some will have valid fears; some not.
And whatever happened Matthew 25:35: For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.
nmJinx 2 said:
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
No comment.Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
No comment on disagreements about mythology.Sam Lowry said:You're right. As long as people disagree, God must not exist.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
Jinx 2 said:OldBear, I generally put you on ignore because it's hopeless.Oldbear83 said:I only call out liars when they tell lies, Jinx. Like pretending 'disagreement with [my] political position' is the motive for calling out thugs and criminals.Jinx 2 said:I am tired of you calling anyone who disagrees with you, including me, a liar.Oldbear83 said:That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That's not bitter. It's disgusted.
And I am EXTREMELY disgusted that any person of faith would support Donald Trump, the least Christ-like person I have ever encountered in national politics, which given the fact that Dick Cheney was our vice president, is saying a lot. At least Cheney stood up for his lesbian daughter against right-wing ire toward people who are openly gay. He was honest about one issue. If Trump tells the truth, it's either accidental or self-supporting; it has nothing to do with integrity.
You want respect and a real dialog? Stop equating disagreements with your political positions as lies.
I think your side is hurting itself - badly - because they have abandoned honesty and decency just to chase political power. So much so that voters in 30 states decided a bombastic ex-game show host was a better choice for President than the abomination the Democrats nominated. Now the same dirty tricks have put a once-undeniable swell of support for Democrats into jeopardy, because you knowingly defamed an honorable judge, and leftist financiers paid to lure thousands of Hondurans to swarm through Mexico, in a mob which included shooting at police and throwing homemade bombs.
Yes, you are bitter. And you have nobody to blame but yourself and your party for your situation.
And, I'm not bitter; I'm disgusted. But I remain optimistic that Americans will reject the nastiness of Trump and efforts by Republicans to erode the democratic process so their candidates keep winning. A party that needs to suppress the vote in order to win, like Brian Kemp is trying to do, should revisit its policy positions.
But, if ANYONE is calling the thugs and criminals to do their worst, it's Donald Trump.
We've had 2 incidents in 2 weeks sparked by the hateful rhetoric that is a constant drumbeat on right-wing news sites--the pipe bombs from the guy whose car looked like a decoupage celebrating Fox News and Breitbart, and the racist shooting at a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Trump needs to tone down the rhetoric, but he won't, because he only wins by "riling up the crazies."
I fear hispanics will be the next target because Trump won't stop agitating about the "caravan" of refugees when (1) it's more than a thousand miles away, "(2) lots of the people are seeking asylum in Mexico, so the group is growing smaller as it travels; (3) they are refugees fleeing violence and extortion in their home country traveling together because that's safer and less costly than paying a "coyote" to smuggle them in.
Let me be clear in stating that we do not have to give asylum to every refugee who shows up at our borders. But we do have a process for that, and perhaps rather than deploying our military, which costs a lot and is solely for the purpose of political grandstanding, Trump should have deployed a small army of immigration judges and lawyers to greet these people at the border and process their claims. With unemployment at a low, we need some of those people. Some will have valid fears; some not.
And whatever happened Matthew 25:35: For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.
No comment on whether Jesus changed his mind and would be on the border to shoot the first one who attempted to cross.Quote:
And whatever happened Matthew 25:35: For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.
No comment on whether any version of Christianity is correct mythology.fadskier said:I do not believe that my version of Christianity is the only correct version. I do not judge other denominations or religions for that is God's role, not mine. I only know that eternity is provided by belief in Jesus. Man has certainly tainted all religions and done horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that is not God's fault.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
But you did comment. when not needed.TexasScientist said:No comment on whether any version of Christianity is correct mythology.fadskier said:I do not believe that my version of Christianity is the only correct version. I do not judge other denominations or religions for that is God's role, not mine. I only know that eternity is provided by belief in Jesus. Man has certainly tainted all religions and done horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that is not God's fault.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
Good answer. Thanks.fadskier said:I do not believe that my version of Christianity is the only correct version. I do not judge other denominations or religions for that is God's role, not mine. I only know that eternity is provided by belief in Jesus. Man has certainly tainted all religions and done horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that is not God's fault.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
That may be debatable, but no comment.fadskier said:But you did comment. when not needed.TexasScientist said:No comment on whether any version of Christianity is correct mythology.fadskier said:I do not believe that my version of Christianity is the only correct version. I do not judge other denominations or religions for that is God's role, not mine. I only know that eternity is provided by belief in Jesus. Man has certainly tainted all religions and done horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that is not God's fault.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
No comment on if God is in control of the caravan.
I respect people's faith as long as they don't use it as an excuse to persecute others for any reason, being gay, Jewish, Muslim, brown, foreign, female, etc.TexasScientist said:No comment on whether any version of Christianity is correct mythology.fadskier said:I do not believe that my version of Christianity is the only correct version. I do not judge other denominations or religions for that is God's role, not mine. I only know that eternity is provided by belief in Jesus. Man has certainly tainted all religions and done horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that is not God's fault.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
I don't like it when faith is trivialized into "God helps me find a parking space at Walmart,"--my post on that score was snarky, and I apologize for that, but if you worship a God you believe is the creative force of the universe, that kind of self-serving prayer seems lacking in respect to me. The bible talks about fearing God, and a God that powerful should inspire fear and awe that translates into respect and respectful behavior toward others (also his creation, if you truly adhere to your belief system, and put here by him for a purpose, too), however you feel about their faith, their political views or their nationality or ethnicity.
Religious faith should not be spread by the sword or mandated by a government; that's my problem with Islam and various Islamic governments.
Agreed. But lots of Christians want the U.S. to be a "Christian nation." Are the only Christian ethics that inform government policies supposed to be opposition to abortion and gay marriage?fadskier said:You are confusing the Bible with the role of government. They are not the same thing.Jinx 2 said:OldBear, I generally put you on ignore because it's hopeless.Oldbear83 said:I only call out liars when they tell lies, Jinx. Like pretending 'disagreement with [my] political position' is the motive for calling out thugs and criminals.Jinx 2 said:I am tired of you calling anyone who disagrees with you, including me, a liar.Oldbear83 said:That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That's not bitter. It's disgusted.
And I am EXTREMELY disgusted that any person of faith would support Donald Trump, the least Christ-like person I have ever encountered in national politics, which given the fact that Dick Cheney was our vice president, is saying a lot. At least Cheney stood up for his lesbian daughter against right-wing ire toward people who are openly gay. He was honest about one issue. If Trump tells the truth, it's either accidental or self-supporting; it has nothing to do with integrity.
You want respect and a real dialog? Stop equating disagreements with your political positions as lies.
I think your side is hurting itself - badly - because they have abandoned honesty and decency just to chase political power. So much so that voters in 30 states decided a bombastic ex-game show host was a better choice for President than the abomination the Democrats nominated. Now the same dirty tricks have put a once-undeniable swell of support for Democrats into jeopardy, because you knowingly defamed an honorable judge, and leftist financiers paid to lure thousands of Hondurans to swarm through Mexico, in a mob which included shooting at police and throwing homemade bombs.
Yes, you are bitter. And you have nobody to blame but yourself and your party for your situation.
And, I'm not bitter; I'm disgusted. But I remain optimistic that Americans will reject the nastiness of Trump and efforts by Republicans to erode the democratic process so their candidates keep winning. A party that needs to suppress the vote in order to win, like Brian Kemp is trying to do, should revisit its policy positions.
But, if ANYONE is calling the thugs and criminals to do their worst, it's Donald Trump.
We've had 2 incidents in 2 weeks sparked by the hateful rhetoric that is a constant drumbeat on right-wing news sites--the pipe bombs from the guy whose car looked like a decoupage celebrating Fox News and Breitbart, and the racist shooting at a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Trump needs to tone down the rhetoric, but he won't, because he only wins by "riling up the crazies."
I fear hispanics will be the next target because Trump won't stop agitating about the "caravan" of refugees when (1) it's more than a thousand miles away, "(2) lots of the people are seeking asylum in Mexico, so the group is growing smaller as it travels; (3) they are refugees fleeing violence and extortion in their home country traveling together because that's safer and less costly than paying a "coyote" to smuggle them in.
Let me be clear in stating that we do not have to give asylum to every refugee who shows up at our borders. But we do have a process for that, and perhaps rather than deploying our military, which costs a lot and is solely for the purpose of political grandstanding, Trump should have deployed a small army of immigration judges and lawyers to greet these people at the border and process their claims. With unemployment at a low, we need some of those people. Some will have valid fears; some not.
And whatever happened Matthew 25:35: For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.
You could make the same argument about outlawing both of those things based on your Christian beliefs.
LOLTexasScientist said:That may be debatable, but no comment.fadskier said:But you did comment. when not needed.TexasScientist said:No comment on whether any version of Christianity is correct mythology.fadskier said:I do not believe that my version of Christianity is the only correct version. I do not judge other denominations or religions for that is God's role, not mine. I only know that eternity is provided by belief in Jesus. Man has certainly tainted all religions and done horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that is not God's fault.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
As a Christian, I am opposed to gay marriage...BUT that is MY opinion...ultimately, it is up to God and not me...therefore, I keep my personal views quiet because my opinion doesn't matter. As a citizen of the US, I am not opposed to gay marriage because I do not understand why the government is involved in marriage. I do not think a church should be forced to marry people that do not reflect their beliefs.Jinx 2 said:Agreed. But lots of Christians want the U.S. to be a "Christian nation." Are the only Christian ethics that inform government policies supposed to be opposition to abortion and gay marriage?fadskier said:You are confusing the Bible with the role of government. They are not the same thing.Jinx 2 said:OldBear, I generally put you on ignore because it's hopeless.Oldbear83 said:I only call out liars when they tell lies, Jinx. Like pretending 'disagreement with [my] political position' is the motive for calling out thugs and criminals.Jinx 2 said:I am tired of you calling anyone who disagrees with you, including me, a liar.Oldbear83 said:That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That's not bitter. It's disgusted.
And I am EXTREMELY disgusted that any person of faith would support Donald Trump, the least Christ-like person I have ever encountered in national politics, which given the fact that Dick Cheney was our vice president, is saying a lot. At least Cheney stood up for his lesbian daughter against right-wing ire toward people who are openly gay. He was honest about one issue. If Trump tells the truth, it's either accidental or self-supporting; it has nothing to do with integrity.
You want respect and a real dialog? Stop equating disagreements with your political positions as lies.
I think your side is hurting itself - badly - because they have abandoned honesty and decency just to chase political power. So much so that voters in 30 states decided a bombastic ex-game show host was a better choice for President than the abomination the Democrats nominated. Now the same dirty tricks have put a once-undeniable swell of support for Democrats into jeopardy, because you knowingly defamed an honorable judge, and leftist financiers paid to lure thousands of Hondurans to swarm through Mexico, in a mob which included shooting at police and throwing homemade bombs.
Yes, you are bitter. And you have nobody to blame but yourself and your party for your situation.
And, I'm not bitter; I'm disgusted. But I remain optimistic that Americans will reject the nastiness of Trump and efforts by Republicans to erode the democratic process so their candidates keep winning. A party that needs to suppress the vote in order to win, like Brian Kemp is trying to do, should revisit its policy positions.
But, if ANYONE is calling the thugs and criminals to do their worst, it's Donald Trump.
We've had 2 incidents in 2 weeks sparked by the hateful rhetoric that is a constant drumbeat on right-wing news sites--the pipe bombs from the guy whose car looked like a decoupage celebrating Fox News and Breitbart, and the racist shooting at a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Trump needs to tone down the rhetoric, but he won't, because he only wins by "riling up the crazies."
I fear hispanics will be the next target because Trump won't stop agitating about the "caravan" of refugees when (1) it's more than a thousand miles away, "(2) lots of the people are seeking asylum in Mexico, so the group is growing smaller as it travels; (3) they are refugees fleeing violence and extortion in their home country traveling together because that's safer and less costly than paying a "coyote" to smuggle them in.
Let me be clear in stating that we do not have to give asylum to every refugee who shows up at our borders. But we do have a process for that, and perhaps rather than deploying our military, which costs a lot and is solely for the purpose of political grandstanding, Trump should have deployed a small army of immigration judges and lawyers to greet these people at the border and process their claims. With unemployment at a low, we need some of those people. Some will have valid fears; some not.
And whatever happened Matthew 25:35: For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.
You could make the same argument about outlawing both of those things based on your Christian beliefs.
With regard to abortion, I believe that it is a human and therefore, should not be legal.
I was saying that with a wink...hope you weren't offended.TexasScientist said:That may be debatable, but no comment.fadskier said:But you did comment. when not needed.TexasScientist said:No comment on whether any version of Christianity is correct mythology.fadskier said:I do not believe that my version of Christianity is the only correct version. I do not judge other denominations or religions for that is God's role, not mine. I only know that eternity is provided by belief in Jesus. Man has certainly tainted all religions and done horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that is not God's fault.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
fadskier said:I was saying that with a wink...hope you weren't offended.TexasScientist said:That may be debatable, but no comment.fadskier said:But you did comment. when not needed.TexasScientist said:No comment on whether any version of Christianity is correct mythology.fadskier said:I do not believe that my version of Christianity is the only correct version. I do not judge other denominations or religions for that is God's role, not mine. I only know that eternity is provided by belief in Jesus. Man has certainly tainted all religions and done horrible things in the name of religion, but again, that is not God's fault.Jinx 2 said:Seriously, what other criteria do we have for judging God but the behavior of those who worship him and claim to strive to live according to his guidelines and seek his guidance and will?fadskier said:Don't judge God by people. People are imperfect and make mistakes. Luckily, God forgives them.Jinx 2 said:
I don't believe so.
Even when I still believed in God--which I have slowly stopped doing over the past 10 years--I did not believe He exerted control over us. What I believed--particularly based on my own experience after my parents were killed by a drunken driver--is that God offered the inner strength and resources to cope with chaos. I was surprised, given the questioning nature of my faith, to find that it somehow gave me a foundation to stand in the two years following both of my parents' deaths, which came 9 months apart. It seemed as if God didn't care about my doubts, and He was there for me.
But I am now watching us literally wreck the planet our lives depend on, for no better reason than money, and the people who are most vociferous in denying climate change or most indifferent or in denial of the human impact on the planet are people of faith. Several of the true believers on this site, particularly the anti-abortion contigent, are also among the rudest, scornful, demeaning and abusive commentators. If their faith gives them such a superiority complex that they feel justified in demeaning and talking down to anyone who doesn't share their views on every issue, people of other faiths (including Islam, a faith tradition I also don't like), people of color and women in general and, finally, anyone who doesn't think Donald Trump is the greatest, I want nothing to do with it.
This makes me sad, because I was raised in that faith and educated in it, and while I no longer believe there is a God who knows the number of hairs on my head, I do believe we will either figure out how to live together and tolerate each other, or we will destroy ourselves along with the planet we depend on for our lives--and the rest of the animals and plants on it. One of the most destructive aspects of evangelical Christianity is that it exalts the role of man by giving him "dominion over the earth," and evanglicals focus on the "dominion" part without accepting any responsibility for exercising it wisely and well.
And which version of God / God's will is right and true? All 3 of the Abrahamic religions--Christians, Jews and Muslims--have multiple sects and offshoots with radically different ideas about God, his level of control and his priorities.
And, if you think yours is the only version that's right and true, how does that inform your approach to other believers (like Mormons, for example, or even Calvinists versus Arminians)?
No comment. 
My husband shares your view re: abortion while I am adamant that this issue should be up to the woman because, without that legal protection, women's choices and lives are controlled by the government in a way that men's are not.fadskier said:As a Christian, I am opposed to gay marriage...BUT that is MY opinion...ultimately, it is up to God and not me...therefore, I keep my personal views quiet because my opinion doesn't matter. As a citizen of the US, I am not opposed to gay marriage because I do not understand why the government is involved in marriage. I do not think a church should be forced to marry people that do not reflect their beliefs.Jinx 2 said:Agreed. But lots of Christians want the U.S. to be a "Christian nation." Are the only Christian ethics that inform government policies supposed to be opposition to abortion and gay marriage?fadskier said:You are confusing the Bible with the role of government. They are not the same thing.Jinx 2 said:OldBear, I generally put you on ignore because it's hopeless.Oldbear83 said:I only call out liars when they tell lies, Jinx. Like pretending 'disagreement with [my] political position' is the motive for calling out thugs and criminals.Jinx 2 said:I am tired of you calling anyone who disagrees with you, including me, a liar.Oldbear83 said:That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That's not bitter. It's disgusted.
And I am EXTREMELY disgusted that any person of faith would support Donald Trump, the least Christ-like person I have ever encountered in national politics, which given the fact that Dick Cheney was our vice president, is saying a lot. At least Cheney stood up for his lesbian daughter against right-wing ire toward people who are openly gay. He was honest about one issue. If Trump tells the truth, it's either accidental or self-supporting; it has nothing to do with integrity.
You want respect and a real dialog? Stop equating disagreements with your political positions as lies.
I think your side is hurting itself - badly - because they have abandoned honesty and decency just to chase political power. So much so that voters in 30 states decided a bombastic ex-game show host was a better choice for President than the abomination the Democrats nominated. Now the same dirty tricks have put a once-undeniable swell of support for Democrats into jeopardy, because you knowingly defamed an honorable judge, and leftist financiers paid to lure thousands of Hondurans to swarm through Mexico, in a mob which included shooting at police and throwing homemade bombs.
Yes, you are bitter. And you have nobody to blame but yourself and your party for your situation.
And, I'm not bitter; I'm disgusted. But I remain optimistic that Americans will reject the nastiness of Trump and efforts by Republicans to erode the democratic process so their candidates keep winning. A party that needs to suppress the vote in order to win, like Brian Kemp is trying to do, should revisit its policy positions.
But, if ANYONE is calling the thugs and criminals to do their worst, it's Donald Trump.
We've had 2 incidents in 2 weeks sparked by the hateful rhetoric that is a constant drumbeat on right-wing news sites--the pipe bombs from the guy whose car looked like a decoupage celebrating Fox News and Breitbart, and the racist shooting at a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Trump needs to tone down the rhetoric, but he won't, because he only wins by "riling up the crazies."
I fear hispanics will be the next target because Trump won't stop agitating about the "caravan" of refugees when (1) it's more than a thousand miles away, "(2) lots of the people are seeking asylum in Mexico, so the group is growing smaller as it travels; (3) they are refugees fleeing violence and extortion in their home country traveling together because that's safer and less costly than paying a "coyote" to smuggle them in.
Let me be clear in stating that we do not have to give asylum to every refugee who shows up at our borders. But we do have a process for that, and perhaps rather than deploying our military, which costs a lot and is solely for the purpose of political grandstanding, Trump should have deployed a small army of immigration judges and lawyers to greet these people at the border and process their claims. With unemployment at a low, we need some of those people. Some will have valid fears; some not.
And whatever happened Matthew 25:35: For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.
You could make the same argument about outlawing both of those things based on your Christian beliefs.
With regard to abortion, I believe that it is a human and therefore, should not be legal.
We've agreed to disagree about that issue and are still happily married after 37 years. So it is possible to disagree on that issue, respect each other's right to his/her own conclusion of why abortion should or should not be an option, and work together successfully on policies we do agree on.
The government is involved in marriage because it's a civil, legal institution that confers certain rights and responsibilities on people who enter into it, which--if they divorce--must be adjudicated and enforced by the courts. I know men AND women who are paying alimony.
My view on abortion is that a woman should not have the right to kill a child...her right's should not necessarily trump another person's right...but I'll agree that there are certain situations where an abortion might be necessary. I can not think of a way that government controls women's bodies in ways that they do not control men's. Could you provide examples?Jinx 2 said:My husband shares your view re: abortion while I am adamant that this issue should be up to the woman because, without that legal protection, women's choices and lives are controlled by the government in a way that men's are not.fadskier said:As a Christian, I am opposed to gay marriage...BUT that is MY opinion...ultimately, it is up to God and not me...therefore, I keep my personal views quiet because my opinion doesn't matter. As a citizen of the US, I am not opposed to gay marriage because I do not understand why the government is involved in marriage. I do not think a church should be forced to marry people that do not reflect their beliefs.Jinx 2 said:Agreed. But lots of Christians want the U.S. to be a "Christian nation." Are the only Christian ethics that inform government policies supposed to be opposition to abortion and gay marriage?fadskier said:You are confusing the Bible with the role of government. They are not the same thing.Jinx 2 said:OldBear, I generally put you on ignore because it's hopeless.Oldbear83 said:I only call out liars when they tell lies, Jinx. Like pretending 'disagreement with [my] political position' is the motive for calling out thugs and criminals.Jinx 2 said:I am tired of you calling anyone who disagrees with you, including me, a liar.Oldbear83 said:That's a really bitter post, Jinx, and unworthy of the vast majority of Christians and other people of faith.Jinx 2 said:The people who make the worst and most unreasonable demands of God are the people who claim to worship him. I honestly wish there was a God with enough of a sense of humor to announce, supernaturally, through the radios or via text to the cellphones of large women cruising the Walmart parking lot because they don't want to walk 100 yards, "I don't give a f--k if you find a parking space!"Oldbear83 said:A Christian minister would accept faith, while atheists commonly fall back on demands that God satisfy human conditions.Waco1947 said:What is your evidence that God created it?bearassnekkid said:Yes, He is sovereign over everything in the universe, including physics, because He created it. He is even sovereign with regard to human free will, in that He is outside of time (his creation) and knows the result of every free choice. How much He chooses to "control" events in linear time is entirely up to him.Waco1947 said:Could God act on physics if God chose toRD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:
I don't believe God is a micromanager. I think he sets everything in motion and allows each individual to make their own decisions. Unlike the animals, God have us humans the ability to reason.
God is good.
Telling, that.
And asking a guy who was crucified for your sake and had his clothes sold off by the guys sitting around waiting for him to die to help you find a parking space or a date for prom or whatever else is on your personal wish list is the ultimate act of disrespect. Some prayers really should attract a lightning bolt.
It also completely ignores the point of my post, or this entire thread. But you got attention, so maybe for you that's a 'win',
That's not bitter. It's disgusted.
And I am EXTREMELY disgusted that any person of faith would support Donald Trump, the least Christ-like person I have ever encountered in national politics, which given the fact that Dick Cheney was our vice president, is saying a lot. At least Cheney stood up for his lesbian daughter against right-wing ire toward people who are openly gay. He was honest about one issue. If Trump tells the truth, it's either accidental or self-supporting; it has nothing to do with integrity.
You want respect and a real dialog? Stop equating disagreements with your political positions as lies.
I think your side is hurting itself - badly - because they have abandoned honesty and decency just to chase political power. So much so that voters in 30 states decided a bombastic ex-game show host was a better choice for President than the abomination the Democrats nominated. Now the same dirty tricks have put a once-undeniable swell of support for Democrats into jeopardy, because you knowingly defamed an honorable judge, and leftist financiers paid to lure thousands of Hondurans to swarm through Mexico, in a mob which included shooting at police and throwing homemade bombs.
Yes, you are bitter. And you have nobody to blame but yourself and your party for your situation.
And, I'm not bitter; I'm disgusted. But I remain optimistic that Americans will reject the nastiness of Trump and efforts by Republicans to erode the democratic process so their candidates keep winning. A party that needs to suppress the vote in order to win, like Brian Kemp is trying to do, should revisit its policy positions.
But, if ANYONE is calling the thugs and criminals to do their worst, it's Donald Trump.
We've had 2 incidents in 2 weeks sparked by the hateful rhetoric that is a constant drumbeat on right-wing news sites--the pipe bombs from the guy whose car looked like a decoupage celebrating Fox News and Breitbart, and the racist shooting at a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Trump needs to tone down the rhetoric, but he won't, because he only wins by "riling up the crazies."
I fear hispanics will be the next target because Trump won't stop agitating about the "caravan" of refugees when (1) it's more than a thousand miles away, "(2) lots of the people are seeking asylum in Mexico, so the group is growing smaller as it travels; (3) they are refugees fleeing violence and extortion in their home country traveling together because that's safer and less costly than paying a "coyote" to smuggle them in.
Let me be clear in stating that we do not have to give asylum to every refugee who shows up at our borders. But we do have a process for that, and perhaps rather than deploying our military, which costs a lot and is solely for the purpose of political grandstanding, Trump should have deployed a small army of immigration judges and lawyers to greet these people at the border and process their claims. With unemployment at a low, we need some of those people. Some will have valid fears; some not.
And whatever happened Matthew 25:35: For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.
You could make the same argument about outlawing both of those things based on your Christian beliefs.
With regard to abortion, I believe that it is a human and therefore, should not be legal.
We've agreed to disagree about that issue and are still happily married after 37 years. So it is possible to disagree on that issue, respect each other's right to his/her own conclusion of why abortion should or should not be an option, and work together successfully on policies we do agree on.
The government is involved in marriage because it's a civil, legal institution that confers certain rights and responsibilities on people who enter into it, which--if they divorce--must be adjudicated and enforced by the courts. I know men AND women who are paying alimony.
My solution to the marriage issue is to simply call the government ceremony a civil partnership or whatever and then let the churches define marriage in a way that suits their beliefs.