Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Does your pastor know EVERY single person in the congregation on every Sunday?"

Actually, yes he does.

And he never prays to Jesus' earthly relatives.

---

And the rest of the questions in my above post?

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "prays to Jesus' earthly relatives"?

---

I mean so much attention is given to Mary, but no one asks Joseph or James to intercede.

No "Brother of God" titles, after all.

Why is Mary given different standing?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Does your pastor know EVERY single person in the congregation on every Sunday?"

Actually, yes he does.

And he never prays to Jesus' earthly relatives.

---

And the rest of the questions in my above post?

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "prays to Jesus' earthly relatives"?

---

I mean so much attention is given to Mary, but no one asks Joseph or James to intercede.

No "Brother of God" titles, after all.

Why is Mary given different standing?

---

St Joseph is a personal favorite and regularly invoked, along with Sts Michael and George, and St Joan (particularly for my daughter), fwiw. It isn't all about Mary.

St Mary is the only theotokos.

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Does your pastor know EVERY single person in the congregation on every Sunday?"

Actually, yes he does.

And he never prays to Jesus' earthly relatives.

---

And the rest of the questions in my above post?

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "prays to Jesus' earthly relatives"?

---

I mean so much attention is given to Mary, but no one asks Joseph or James to intercede.

No "Brother of God" titles, after all.

Why is Mary given different standing?

---

St Joseph is a personal favorite and regularly invoked, along with Sts Michael and George, and St Joan (particularly for my daughter), fwiw. It isn't all about Mary.

St Mary is the only theotokos.

---

It's wrong, IMIO.

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

I have many Catholic friends and understand the perspective. I simply see no scriptural support for it. There is not a single example in scripture of the Jews or Christians praying to mortal man, or asking him/her to intercede on their behalf. Indeed, there is no evidence in scripture that those long dead can or do intercede on our behalf. In fact, because we are in a direct relationship with God through Christ, we have no need for intercession. And I think therein lies the problem with beliefs such as these which add to the authority of scripture and create a hierarchy that simply does not exist.

I recall Paul and Peter chiding new Christians who saw their miracles and bowed down to them, or attempted to treat them like they were something more than they were - sinners saved by the grace of God. They made sure to convey that they were unworthy of such praise. Indeed, they are great men who led many to Christ, and our early church fathers. But at the end of the day, they are STILL just men.

---

Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no need for intercessory prayer at all?

---

If by intercessory prayer you mean the act of praying on behalf of others, I do so all the time. We are called to do so.

However, if by intercessory prayer you mean asking a non-deity to intercede on our behalf, no. Once again, there is no scriptural support for requesting non-deities to intercede on our behalf. Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through him. Mary, Paul, Peter and the dead saints play no part in that.

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Does your pastor know EVERY single person in the congregation on every Sunday?"

Actually, yes he does.

And he never prays to Jesus' earthly relatives.

---

And the rest of the questions in my above post?

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "prays to Jesus' earthly relatives"?

---

I mean so much attention is given to Mary, but no one asks Joseph or James to intercede.

No "Brother of God" titles, after all.

Why is Mary given different standing?

---

St Joseph is a personal favorite and regularly invoked, along with Sts Michael and George, and St Joan (particularly for my daughter), fwiw. It isn't all about Mary.

St Mary is the only theotokos.

---

It's wrong, IMIO.

---

You are entitled to your opinion about the validity of invoking saints of course, but I was simply correcting your assertion that "no one asks Joseph or James to intercede". That simply isn't true.

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

I have many Catholic friends and understand the perspective. I simply see no scriptural support for it. There is not a single example in scripture of the Jews or Christians praying to mortal man, or asking him/her to intercede on their behalf. Indeed, there is no evidence in scripture that those long dead can or do intercede on our behalf. In fact, because we are in a direct relationship with God through Christ, we have no need for intercession. And I think therein lies the problem with beliefs such as these which add to the authority of scripture and create a hierarchy that simply does not exist.

I recall Paul and Peter chiding new Christians who saw their miracles and bowed down to them, or attempted to treat them like they were something more than they were - sinners saved by the grace of God. They made sure to convey that they were unworthy of such praise. Indeed, they are great men who led many to Christ, and our early church fathers. But at the end of the day, they are STILL just men.

---

Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no need for intercessory prayer at all?

---

If by intercessory prayer you mean the act of praying on behalf of others, I do so all the time. We are called to do so.

However, if by intercessory prayer you mean asking a non-deity to intercede on our behalf, no. Once again, there is no scriptural support for requesting non-deities to intercede on our behalf. Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through him. Mary, Paul, Peter and the dead saints play no part in that.

---

So, you never ever ask anyone to pray for you or your other prayer concerns? Come on, this isn't hard to answer...

FWIW, I agree 100% with you that Christ alone is indeed the only way and that no one comes to the Father except through him. You might consider that asking for intercessory prayer from others is in no way contrary to this.

Coke Bear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Agree with this for the most part. That said, I listen to a Catholic radio station here in Austin quite regularly, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard a prayer directly to Mary without any mention of Christ or God. It's as if she has attained deity status.

---

We; therefore, ask those righteous folks heaven to pray for us. They are taking those prayers straight to Jesus.

---

Again, there is no scriptural support for the position that righteous folks in Heaven are doing anything on our behalf, much less taking our prayers straight to Jesus. With all due respect - and I mean that, as the friend of many Catholics - this is bad theology that the Catholic Church has added to the Holy Scriptures.

Porteroso said:

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Mothra said:

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trey3216 said:

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GoldMind said:

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Mothra said:

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GoldMind said:

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This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.

---

So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.

---

There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?

---

I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart.

---

Bingo. Can't tell you how many Presbyterian services I have sat through the years where the pastor reads a prayer from a script to the congregation, and we have our little script and are supposed to respond to it. None of it comes from the heart.

---

This is the biggest difference. Baptists have this monopoly on theology, this huge ego. They are above doing any regular thing the Bible asks. Other denominations make sure you can follow the Bible, at least on Sunday, in an organized manner. Baptists don't get it even more than those nailing Jesus to the cross. They are those same religious leaders, barely changed until today.

---

I don't even know what this means.

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"We therefore, ask those righteous folks heaven to pray for us. They are taking those prayers straight to Jesus."

Since Christ is the intercessor for all Mankind, this reads wrong to me. Christ - and Christ alone - speaks to the Father on our behalf, and we all - every last one of us - have access to Christ.

I agree with James 5:16, but I also recall Mark 3:31, where Mary summoned Jesus to come out and speak with her, and in verse 33 Jesus replied "who are my mother and my brothers?" meaning clearly that Mary held no special privilege.


I think God allows for intercessory prayer out of His grace, but it comes from the heart of the one making intercession, not the one asking someone to intercede for him or her. That is, if my mother who passed some years ago and is now with Jesus, were to ask the Father to help me in something, if the Lord would grant it He would do so out of love for her, while me asking my departed mother to speak to the Lord might provoke Him to ask why I don't ask Him myself. As for the mother of Jesus, we have never met, have nothing in common except that we both love her son Jesus. It really makes no sense for me to pray to Mary for anything, nor does it change the moral condition of anyone to do so. It smacks of idolatry, it really does.

---

Love you man, but you need get past the whole "praying to" construction; asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me. It really is that simple.

"Christ - and Christ alone - speaks to the Father on our behalf, and we all - every last one of us - have access to Christ."

I and my Father are one. John 10:30 - Anyone speaking to Jesus Christ is speaking to God.

No need to search of idolatry where there is none.

---

So the priest I referenced on the radio other day during his prayer asked for Mary's "blessing." He did not say, "Mary, please go ask Jesus if we can have a blessing."

Not sure I follow your line of thought here.

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me."

Yes, it very much is different. You have a relationship, a direct and important one, with your mother. With all due respect to Mary, you have never met and have no relationship, so there is no reason you should reach to her when you can just ask Jesus Himself.

Here's the thing for me. We are a community of believers, so it makes perfect sense for someone to ask someone else for help, and even more for a believer to ask the Father to help someone he or she knows needs His help. But we need to avoid the dangers of tokenism and icon worship, and calling anyone "Mother of God" gets way too close to the cliff.

---

I have never met Christ or God, yet I have a relationship with them. My relationship with them is as good or better than any other that I have.

I think mother of A God is more accurate. Theotokos means "God-bearer"

We believe we were created in gods image, and that god chose man to worship and glorify his son, to spread the word to all nations. If man is worthy of this task, don't you think it's ok to glorify him with images of his own creation?

---

You have a direct relationship with a deity, whom you have met.

Mary on the other hand, not so much.

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

I grew up in a Baptist church but married into a Catholic family 36 years ago. I have been to Mass many times. I gave some thought to converting but could never get past a couple of things 1) Confession to a priest. My view is, the curtain was torn from the top down providing me access to our Father through Jesus Christ without the need of an earthly priest and 2)Penance as assigned by a priest. Jesus Christ did the work and no work I can do will change that.

To be honest, I never considered it strongly enough to dig into it and ask anyone to explain it. If any of you can explain it, I'm all ears.

---

Never have understood the praying to Mary thing either.

---

My journey on the Canterbury trail has enlarged my sense of what is referred to as the "Communion of Saints" - that is, all believers who have ever lived and those alive now. I take great comfort from the belief that I can (and do) regularly petition loved ones no longer present, as well as a handful of favorite saints and the Blessed Virgin to pray for me and others for whom I pray. People get too hung up on the whole "praying to Mary" thing. It is more productive to think of Marian invocation as asking for intercessory prayer as opposed to "praying to". Surely, most Baptists (and other denominations) have no reservations about that. It's been a tremendous blessing. Can't have too many of those.

---

I have many Catholic friends and understand the perspective. I simply see no scriptural support for it. There is not a single example in scripture of the Jews or Christians praying to mortal man, or asking him/her to intercede on their behalf. Indeed, there is no evidence in scripture that those long dead can or do intercede on our behalf. In fact, because we are in a direct relationship with God through Christ, we have no need for intercession. And I think therein lies the problem with beliefs such as these which add to the authority of scripture and create a hierarchy that simply does not exist.

I recall Paul and Peter chiding new Christians who saw their miracles and bowed down to them, or attempted to treat them like they were something more than they were - sinners saved by the grace of God. They made sure to convey that they were unworthy of such praise. Indeed, they are great men who led many to Christ, and our early church fathers. But at the end of the day, they are STILL just men.

---

Am I understanding you correctly in that you see no need for intercessory prayer at all?

---

If by intercessory prayer you mean the act of praying on behalf of others, I do so all the time. We are called to do so.

However, if by intercessory prayer you mean asking a non-deity to intercede on our behalf, no. Once again, there is no scriptural support for requesting non-deities to intercede on our behalf. Christ alone is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through him. Mary, Paul, Peter and the dead saints play no part in that.

---

So, you never ever ask anyone to pray for you or your other prayer concerns? Come on, this isn't hard to answer...

FWIW, I agree 100% with you that Christ alone is indeed the only way and that no one comes to the Father except through him. You might consider that asking for intercessory prayer from others is in no way contrary to this.

---

Are you talking about my Christian friends or members of my church body? Of course. Scripture says we should pray for each other.

That's quite different from praying to a long dead mortal and asking him or her to pray for you.

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

Once again, if by intercessory prayer you mean asking other Christian brothers and sisters to pray for us, or praying for others, completely agree.

If on the other hand you mean the Catholic practice of praying to long dead saints to intercede on our behalf, there is not a single reference to same in all of scripture.

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"We therefore, ask those righteous folks heaven to pray for us. They are taking those prayers straight to Jesus."

Since Christ is the intercessor for all Mankind, this reads wrong to me. Christ - and Christ alone - speaks to the Father on our behalf, and we all - every last one of us - have access to Christ.

I agree with James 5:16, but I also recall Mark 3:31, where Mary summoned Jesus to come out and speak with her, and in verse 33 Jesus replied "who are my mother and my brothers?" meaning clearly that Mary held no special privilege.


I think God allows for intercessory prayer out of His grace, but it comes from the heart of the one making intercession, not the one asking someone to intercede for him or her. That is, if my mother who passed some years ago and is now with Jesus, were to ask the Father to help me in something, if the Lord would grant it He would do so out of love for her, while me asking my departed mother to speak to the Lord might provoke Him to ask why I don't ask Him myself. As for the mother of Jesus, we have never met, have nothing in common except that we both love her son Jesus. It really makes no sense for me to pray to Mary for anything, nor does it change the moral condition of anyone to do so. It smacks of idolatry, it really does.

---

Love you man, but you need get past the whole "praying to" construction; asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me. It really is that simple.

"Christ - and Christ alone - speaks to the Father on our behalf, and we all - every last one of us - have access to Christ."

I and my Father are one. John 10:30 - Anyone speaking to Jesus Christ is speaking to God.

No need to search of idolatry where there is none.

---

So the priest I referenced on the radio other day during his prayer asked for Mary's "blessing." He did not say, "Mary, please go ask Jesus if we can have a blessing."

Not sure I follow your line of thought here.

---

I can't speak to the practices of others, only to my own. Whenever I talk to the Blessed Virgin, any other saints either with us now or departed, I ask them to pray for whatever it is that I am praying over. I make no temporal distinction in the belief that all who are alive in Christ are in the eternal now.

A "blessing" very often follows the form of some benediction. This is not against any scripture that I am aware of, and the Bible is quite full of them.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

Once again, if by intercessory prayer you mean asking other Christian brothers and sisters to pray for us, or praying for others, completely agree.

If on the other hand you mean the Catholic practice of praying to long dead saints to intercede on our behalf, there is not a single reference to same in all of scripture.

---

I'd be interested in any scriptural references specifically forbidding requests for intercessory prayer from whomever.

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

Once again, if by intercessory prayer you mean asking other Christian brothers and sisters to pray for us, or praying for others, completely agree.

If on the other hand you mean the Catholic practice of praying to long dead saints to intercede on our behalf, there is not a single reference to same in all of scripture.

---

I'd be interested in any scriptural references specifically forbidding requests for intercessory prayer from whomever.

---

Specifically forbidding? Since the bible doesn't address the practice at all, I am not sure there is any scripture specifically forbidding it. It a extra-scriptural practice that the Catholics have added to scripture.

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

Once again, if by intercessory prayer you mean asking other Christian brothers and sisters to pray for us, or praying for others, completely agree.

If on the other hand you mean the Catholic practice of praying to long dead saints to intercede on our behalf, there is not a single reference to same in all of scripture.

---

I'd be interested in any scriptural references specifically forbidding requests for intercessory prayer from whomever.

---

Specifically forbidding? Since the bible doesn't address the practice at all, I am not sure there is any scripture specifically forbidding it. It a extra-scriptural practice that the Catholics have added to scripture.

---

Arguments from silence carry little weight, in general.

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

Once again, if by intercessory prayer you mean asking other Christian brothers and sisters to pray for us, or praying for others, completely agree.

If on the other hand you mean the Catholic practice of praying to long dead saints to intercede on our behalf, there is not a single reference to same in all of scripture.

---

I'd be interested in any scriptural references specifically forbidding requests for intercessory prayer from whomever.

---

Specifically forbidding? Since the bible doesn't address the practice at all, I am not sure there is any scripture specifically forbidding it. It a extra-scriptural practice that the Catholics have added to scripture.

---

Arguments from silence carry little weight, in general.

---

Scripture doesn't specifically reference abortion. Doesn't mean the practice isn't sinful.

In this instance, I don't know that I would call the Catholic practice of "praying" for intercession of the Saints sinful, just unbiblical. And that's my problem with it.

As I said above, to each his own.

I'm a euchreist - Took $100 off of my brothers last night.

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

Once again, if by intercessory prayer you mean asking other Christian brothers and sisters to pray for us, or praying for others, completely agree.

If on the other hand you mean the Catholic practice of praying to long dead saints to intercede on our behalf, there is not a single reference to same in all of scripture.

---

I'd be interested in any scriptural references specifically forbidding requests for intercessory prayer from whomever.

---

Specifically forbidding? Since the bible doesn't address the practice at all, I am not sure there is any scripture specifically forbidding it. It a extra-scriptural practice that the Catholics have added to scripture.

---

Arguments from silence carry little weight, in general.

---

Scripture doesn't specifically reference abortion. Doesn't mean the practice isn't sinful.

In this instance, I don't know that I would call the Catholic practice of "praying" for intercession of the Saints sinful, just unbiblical. And that's my problem with it.

As I said above, to each his own.

---

Not much of a stretch to equate abortion to murder (which I believe it is). Where in scripture do you find something similar re the invocation of saints?

I think there's a distinction to be made between unbiblical and extra biblical. They are not equivalent.

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Does your pastor know EVERY single person in the congregation on every Sunday?"

Actually, yes he does.

And he never prays to Jesus' earthly relatives.

---

And the rest of the questions in my above post?

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "prays to Jesus' earthly relatives"?

---

I mean so much attention is given to Mary, but no one asks Joseph or James to intercede.

No "Brother of God" titles, after all.

Why is Mary given different standing?

---

St Joseph is a personal favorite and regularly invoked, along with Sts Michael and George, and St Joan (particularly for my daughter), fwiw. It isn't all about Mary.

St Mary is the only theotokos.

---

It's wrong, IMIO.

---

Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer, Luther accepted the traditional belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary (Jesus had no blood brothers), and her status as the Theotokos (Mother of God)

And yes, I ask Blessed Joseph, her most chaste spouse, to pray for me everyday. I pray for his intercession as a husband and father. I also also ask him, as Saint Joseph, the worker (Feast Day May 1st) to pray for me in my career and for others that I know seeking employment.

Mothra said:

---

Again, there is no scriptural support for the position that righteous folks in Heaven are doing anything on our behalf, much less taking our prayers straight to Jesus. With all due respect - and I mean that, as the friend of many Catholics - this is bad theology that the Catholic Church has added to the Holy Scriptures.

---

I've quote Mark stating that God is the God of the living, not the dead. I've shown in Revelation 5:8 that the "elders" in heaven hear and take our prayers to the Lamb (Jesus), but you refuse to accept it.

Here is another article that Tim Staples does a better job than I can do.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Does your pastor know EVERY single person in the congregation on every Sunday?"

Actually, yes he does.

And he never prays to Jesus' earthly relatives.

---

And the rest of the questions in my above post?

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "prays to Jesus' earthly relatives"?

---

I mean so much attention is given to Mary, but no one asks Joseph or James to intercede.

No "Brother of God" titles, after all.

Why is Mary given different standing?

---

St Joseph is a personal favorite and regularly invoked, along with Sts Michael and George, and St Joan (particularly for my daughter), fwiw. It isn't all about Mary.

St Mary is the only theotokos.

---

It's wrong, IMIO.

---

Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer, Luther accepted the traditional belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary (Jesus had no blood brothers), and her status as the Theotokos (Mother of God)

And yes, I ask Blessed Joseph, her most chaste spouse, to pray for me everyday. I pray for his intercession as a husband and father. I also also ask him, as Saint Joseph, the worker (Feast Day May 1st) to pray for me in my career and for others that I know seeking employment.

---

I appreciate your perspective. I also think it's extremely bad to build a church on human opinion rather than sticking with Scriptural precedent. Jews did not pray to Abraham or Moses, after all, but only to God.

Jesus, when asked how we should pray, did not direct His disciples to pray to Him or any human, but to the Father in Heaven.

Nothing in Paul's writings or Peter's directed believers to pray to humans. John's encounter with an angel in the book of Revelation included a part where the angel warned John not to worship angels, but only God.

Now, Jesus clearly did instruct disciples to pray for other people, especially their enemies. But there is a world of difference between asking God to help another person in need, and praying to a human - living or dead - for help. Asking a fellow believer to pray for you is a different matter, and should not be conflated with Marian worship.

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Respectfully, if there's any conflating going on, it is you conflating requesting the intercessory prayers of others with whatever you mean by "praying to". I've attempted to explain that in no way do I believe asking for prayers = praying to. Sorry for my lack of skill. I just tell you as a brother in Christ how it is with me and probably most Christians who have ever lived, fwiw.

Prime evidence:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now and at the time of our death.

Do you see any problem there? Anything unbiblical?

The Song of Mary
46 And Mary said:
"My soul [a]magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
54 He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever."

Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

Oldbear83 said:

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Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

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Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

Oldbear83 said:

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Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

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Praying is NOT worshiping. Praying is asking for help, Just like in England when a barrister states "I pray the court ..."

No one is worshiping the court. They are asking the judge for a request. We people pray to Mary, they are not worshiping her either. They are asking for her intercession.

As I mentioned earlier, no creature that ever has or will walk the earth is holier than Mary. Jesus listens to his mom. If it be God's will, He will grant the request. The only thing Mary can do is ask.

curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

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Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

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So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

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Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

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So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

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You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Praying to Mary.

That's the violation.

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Just as I thought; you have nothing from scripture to support your position. Just assertion of opinion. Which is fine.

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So you did not read any of my past posts, hmm?

Tell me then, why didn't Jews pray to Abraham, who made the covenant with God upon which we all depend?

Why didn't Jews pray to Moses, who carried God's law down to Men?

Remember what happened when Saul used a witch to contact Samuel after his death.

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You are still largely arguing from silence.

Didn't our Lord speak to Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration?

Requesting intercession from saints is hardly equivalent to consorting with witches or mediums.

For your reading pleasure:

https://extinguishthelight.com/2020/07/11/a-biblical-defense-on-the-intercession-of-the-saints/

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1. I have noted that nowhere in the whole Bible, do people of faith pray to other people. That's evidence, not silence.

2. Elijah and Moses were present at Christ's Transfiguration, yes. Note that no one prayed to either of them, nor asked their blessing on the Lord's action. Kind of the point.

3. As Canon observed, you are closer to mediums than you know. A medium is simply a human used to make contact with the Divine, rather than contacting God directly. Praying to a human does the same thing.

We have direct access to our Father in Heaven. I commend us all to use that privilege.

Coke Bear said:

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Mothra said:

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Again, there is no scriptural support for the position that righteous folks in Heaven are doing anything on our behalf, much less taking our prayers straight to Jesus. With all due respect - and I mean that, as the friend of many Catholics - this is bad theology that the Catholic Church has added to the Holy Scriptures.

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I've quote Mark stating that God is the God of the living, not the dead. I've shown in Revelation 5:8 that the "elders" in heaven hear and take our prayers to the Lamb (Jesus), but you refuse to accept it.

Here is another article that Tim Staples does a better job than I can do.

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If by "refuse to accept it" you mean that I don't believe your interpretation of those verses in any way whatsoever supports the practice of praying to long-dead saints, you are correct. I don't accept that interpretation because that is simply not a reasonable interpretation of those verses.

I will review the article, but to be blunt - if that's the best you got, your position is severely lacking any scriptural support.

And yes I know the Catholic understanding of Mary needing a Savior.

The short answer is yes, Mary still needed Jesus to save her. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that "the 'splendor of an entirely unique holiness' by which Mary is 'enriched from the first instant of her conception' comes wholly from Christ."3 But he saved her from having ever committed a sin.


The explanation above to me is simple not truth.

23 for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

This verse does not proclaim all but Mary.