whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis has "really underperformed" in his 2024 presidential campaign, former GOP Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan says, calling it "one of the worst" campaigns he's seen so far.@MajorCBS: "Is it over for DeSantis?"

Hogan: "I think it's getting close to being over." pic.twitter.com/Krx8AX9L0x

— CBS News (@CBSNews) June 21, 2023

---

The rumors of the death of Ron DeSantis have been greatly exaggerated. Once Biden exits the race, things will get REALLY interesting.

The talk of a dual party Independent ticket with Joe Manchin running for President and a Republican VP running mate is fascinating to me. Should the Dems and Republicans not abandon a Biden vs. Trump rematch that nobody wants, such a ticket could have a real shot. I certainly would consider it. We shall see.

---

RDS has struggled. It is really, really, really hard to step up from state politics to national politics. He hasta get better. And he may do exactly that. Or he may not. He does have time to do so. The bigger problem is just the emerging perception that, because of his stumbles and overall under-performance to expectations, he's not ready for the big-stage. He's got to break that cycle sooner rather than later, or perception will set in & become reality.

Frankly, if he doesn't get a lot better, he might even miss the ticket altogether.

---

He's basically hired a Jeb Bush campaign blueprint and it absolutely sucks.

The guy is missing out on populist messaging. He's also too formal with his public speaking. He needs to talk personal and bring the fire.

I'd choose RFK Jr. over Desantis at this point.

---

What exactly has RDS been moderate on? He's actually getting hammered by the moderate, corporate types for campaigning to the right of Trump.

---

I didn't say he was moderate, but his campaign messaging is.

Good breakdown on why:
https://www.adamtownsend.me/desantis-campaign/?clear-cache

---

Trump is attacking DeSantis only from the left ... when his not making moronic comments.

---

What helped Trump is that he said sh i t that people were thinking but we're too afraid to say and it gave him loads of publicity.

"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

Trump only endorsed DeSantis two days before the election, after months of attacking him, and it was more in the form of a prediction: "You're going to re-elect Ron DeSantis as Governor of your state."

---

History is not your strong suit. DeSantis was lagging in the pack in a very large primary field in his FIRST campaign for governor. Trump's endorsement rocketed his campaign to the nomination, and he went on to win the General election in what was at the time a very purple state.

If you were to propose that Trump is a positive in some parts of the country and a negative in others, or that he has had some major hits as well as some major misses, I would agree with you. But, in fact, he has his fingerprints on most of the party. He endorsed Kemp in the primary. He even endorsed Youngkin in the general. Ever heard of Youngkin? Did the Trump endorsement doom him? I seem to remember that Youngkin won in a +9 blue state despite a Trump endorsement. Was Trump a drag in 2020? Yeah, on balance mostly so. But Kryptonite? That some pretty weak kryptonite, as far as kryptonite goes.

Geez, guys. Pointing out uncontestable facts (that you try to obscure) is now derided as shilling for Trump?

---

I wasn't commenting on any of that. RDS' first campaign for governor was in 2018, before Trump jumped the shark. You and HB were talking about 2022; calling RDS a "Trump candidate" in that context is misleading at best.

---

LOL. before Trump was Trump. I got a chuckle over that one. Like...."hey guys, remember that time when everyone liked Trump?"

RDS was most assuredly a Trump candidate when he won the Governorship of a very purple FL, during the heat of the neverTrumper madness over Russia collusion and special counsel investigations & such....in one of those elections cited as evidence for the meme Trump as a loser, drag on the party, terrible candidate selection, etc....

Look. there are plenty of valid ways to critique Trump. But facts are facts. There some very glaring discordant refutations of the "loser Trump" narrative. If you want to use that phrase because HE lost in 2020? spot on. But when you try to stretch out to both horizons, don't be surprised when branches start poking holes in the fabric.

---

If you want to talk facts, let's talk facts. Trump lost the popular vote in 2016, but thankfully won the electoral college against one of the worst presidential candidates in our nations history, squeaking out a win against HRC. In 2018 he lost Congress. In 2020 he lost the presidential election against a geriatric patient who was likewise one of the worst candidates in modern history. And in 2022, all of the Trumpist candidates lost, perhaps with the exception of JD Vance - if you can call a guy who was highly critical of Trump a Trumpist.

Look, you'll get no argument from me that a Trump endorsement once helped with a significant portion of conservatives who thought the guy could do no wrong. But that ability is long gone. We saw it fail repeatedly with the trumpists who touted his election conspiracies in 2022. Those candidates fared poorly. Elections are about results and the fact is the Trumpists haven't done well in general elections since 2018. Sure they may do well in primaries but in the general election those candidates got their asses kicked.

Buying the fools gold will lead to another disappointing general election. Wait and see.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis has "really underperformed" in his 2024 presidential campaign, former GOP Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan says, calling it "one of the worst" campaigns he's seen so far.@MajorCBS: "Is it over for DeSantis?"

Hogan: "I think it's getting close to being over." pic.twitter.com/Krx8AX9L0x

— CBS News (@CBSNews) June 21, 2023

---

The rumors of the death of Ron DeSantis have been greatly exaggerated. Once Biden exits the race, things will get REALLY interesting.

The talk of a dual party Independent ticket with Joe Manchin running for President and a Republican VP running mate is fascinating to me. Should the Dems and Republicans not abandon a Biden vs. Trump rematch that nobody wants, such a ticket could have a real shot. I certainly would consider it. We shall see.

---

RDS has struggled. It is really, really, really hard to step up from state politics to national politics. He hasta get better. And he may do exactly that. Or he may not. He does have time to do so. The bigger problem is just the emerging perception that, because of his stumbles and overall under-performance to expectations, he's not ready for the big-stage. He's got to break that cycle sooner rather than later, or perception will set in & become reality.

Frankly, if he doesn't get a lot better, he might even miss the ticket altogether.

---

He's basically hired a Jeb Bush campaign blueprint and it absolutely sucks.

The guy is missing out on populist messaging. He's also too formal with his public speaking. He needs to talk personal and bring the fire.

I'd choose RFK Jr. over Desantis at this point.

---

What exactly has RDS been moderate on? He's actually getting hammered by the moderate, corporate types for campaigning to the right of Trump.

---

I didn't say he was moderate, but his campaign messaging is.

Good breakdown on why:
https://www.adamtownsend.me/desantis-campaign/?clear-cache

---

Trump is attacking DeSantis only from the left ... when his not making moronic comments.

---

What helped Trump is that he said sh i t that people were thinking but we're too afraid to say and it gave him loads of publicity.

"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

Trump only endorsed DeSantis two days before the election, after months of attacking him, and it was more in the form of a prediction: "You're going to re-elect Ron DeSantis as Governor of your state."

---

History is not your strong suit. DeSantis was lagging in the pack in a very large primary field in his FIRST campaign for governor. Trump's endorsement rocketed his campaign to the nomination, and he went on to win the General election in what was at the time a very purple state.

If you were to propose that Trump is a positive in some parts of the country and a negative in others, or that he has had some major hits as well as some major misses, I would agree with you. But, in fact, he has his fingerprints on most of the party. He endorsed Kemp in the primary. He even endorsed Youngkin in the general. Ever heard of Youngkin? Did the Trump endorsement doom him? I seem to remember that Youngkin won in a +9 blue state despite a Trump endorsement. Was Trump a drag in 2020? Yeah, on balance mostly so. But Kryptonite? That some pretty weak kryptonite, as far as kryptonite goes.

Geez, guys. Pointing out uncontestable facts (that you try to obscure) is now derided as shilling for Trump?

---

I wasn't commenting on any of that. RDS' first campaign for governor was in 2018, before Trump jumped the shark. You and HB were talking about 2022; calling RDS a "Trump candidate" in that context is misleading at best.

---

LOL. before Trump was Trump. I got a chuckle over that one. Like...."hey guys, remember that time when everyone liked Trump?"

RDS was most assuredly a Trump candidate when he won the Governorship of a very purple FL, during the heat of the neverTrumper madness over Russia collusion and special counsel investigations & such....in one of those elections cited as evidence for the meme Trump as a loser, drag on the party, terrible candidate selection, etc....

Look. there are plenty of valid ways to critique Trump. But facts are facts. There some very glaring discordant refutations of the "loser Trump" narrative. If you want to use that phrase because HE lost in 2020? spot on. But when you try to stretch out to both horizons, don't be surprised when branches start poking holes in the fabric.

---

Perhaps you're right - Trump has always been a self absorbed self aggrandizing jackass, but there is no question he jumped the shark in 2020 when he tried to overturn the election. That galvanized the vast majority of the country against him and made him unelectable.x.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis has "really underperformed" in his 2024 presidential campaign, former GOP Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan says, calling it "one of the worst" campaigns he's seen so far.@MajorCBS: "Is it over for DeSantis?"

Hogan: "I think it's getting close to being over." pic.twitter.com/Krx8AX9L0x

— CBS News (@CBSNews) June 21, 2023

---

The rumors of the death of Ron DeSantis have been greatly exaggerated. Once Biden exits the race, things will get REALLY interesting.

The talk of a dual party Independent ticket with Joe Manchin running for President and a Republican VP running mate is fascinating to me. Should the Dems and Republicans not abandon a Biden vs. Trump rematch that nobody wants, such a ticket could have a real shot. I certainly would consider it. We shall see.

---

RDS has struggled. It is really, really, really hard to step up from state politics to national politics. He hasta get better. And he may do exactly that. Or he may not. He does have time to do so. The bigger problem is just the emerging perception that, because of his stumbles and overall under-performance to expectations, he's not ready for the big-stage. He's got to break that cycle sooner rather than later, or perception will set in & become reality.

Frankly, if he doesn't get a lot better, he might even miss the ticket altogether.

---

He's basically hired a Jeb Bush campaign blueprint and it absolutely sucks.

The guy is missing out on populist messaging. He's also too formal with his public speaking. He needs to talk personal and bring the fire.

I'd choose RFK Jr. over Desantis at this point.

---

What exactly has RDS been moderate on? He's actually getting hammered by the moderate, corporate types for campaigning to the right of Trump.

---

I didn't say he was moderate, but his campaign messaging is.

Good breakdown on why:
https://www.adamtownsend.me/desantis-campaign/?clear-cache

---

Trump is attacking DeSantis only from the left ... when his not making moronic comments.

---

What helped Trump is that he said sh i t that people were thinking but we're too afraid to say and it gave him loads of publicity.

"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

Trump only endorsed DeSantis two days before the election, after months of attacking him, and it was more in the form of a prediction: "You're going to re-elect Ron DeSantis as Governor of your state."

---

History is not your strong suit. DeSantis was lagging in the pack in a very large primary field in his FIRST campaign for governor. Trump's endorsement rocketed his campaign to the nomination, and he went on to win the General election in what was at the time a very purple state.

If you were to propose that Trump is a positive in some parts of the country and a negative in others, or that he has had some major hits as well as some major misses, I would agree with you. But, in fact, he has his fingerprints on most of the party. He endorsed Kemp in the primary. He even endorsed Youngkin in the general. Ever heard of Youngkin? Did the Trump endorsement doom him? I seem to remember that Youngkin won in a +9 blue state despite a Trump endorsement. Was Trump a drag in 2020? Yeah, on balance mostly so. But Kryptonite? That some pretty weak kryptonite, as far as kryptonite goes.

Geez, guys. Pointing out uncontestable facts (that you try to obscure) is now derided as shilling for Trump?

---

I wasn't commenting on any of that. RDS' first campaign for governor was in 2018, before Trump jumped the shark. You and HB were talking about 2022; calling RDS a "Trump candidate" in that context is misleading at best.

---

LOL. before Trump was Trump. I got a chuckle over that one. Like...."hey guys, remember that time when everyone liked Trump?"

RDS was most assuredly a Trump candidate when he won the Governorship of a very purple FL, during the heat of the neverTrumper madness over Russia collusion and special counsel investigations & such....in one of those elections cited as evidence for the meme Trump as a loser, drag on the party, terrible candidate selection, etc....

Look. there are plenty of valid ways to critique Trump. But facts are facts. There some very glaring discordant refutations of the "loser Trump" narrative. If you want to use that phrase because HE lost in 2020? spot on. But when you try to stretch out to both horizons, don't be surprised when branches start poking holes in the fabric.

---

I haven't used the phrase or made any predictions about 2024. I just don't see what you're accomplishing by convincing yourself it's still 2018. Not everyone liked Trump then, but I did. So did most everyone else here. If that's not a clue, I don't know what to tell you.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis has "really underperformed" in his 2024 presidential campaign, former GOP Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan says, calling it "one of the worst" campaigns he's seen so far.@MajorCBS: "Is it over for DeSantis?"

Hogan: "I think it's getting close to being over." pic.twitter.com/Krx8AX9L0x

— CBS News (@CBSNews) June 21, 2023

---

The rumors of the death of Ron DeSantis have been greatly exaggerated. Once Biden exits the race, things will get REALLY interesting.

The talk of a dual party Independent ticket with Joe Manchin running for President and a Republican VP running mate is fascinating to me. Should the Dems and Republicans not abandon a Biden vs. Trump rematch that nobody wants, such a ticket could have a real shot. I certainly would consider it. We shall see.

---

RDS has struggled. It is really, really, really hard to step up from state politics to national politics. He hasta get better. And he may do exactly that. Or he may not. He does have time to do so. The bigger problem is just the emerging perception that, because of his stumbles and overall under-performance to expectations, he's not ready for the big-stage. He's got to break that cycle sooner rather than later, or perception will set in & become reality.

Frankly, if he doesn't get a lot better, he might even miss the ticket altogether.

---

He's basically hired a Jeb Bush campaign blueprint and it absolutely sucks.

The guy is missing out on populist messaging. He's also too formal with his public speaking. He needs to talk personal and bring the fire.

I'd choose RFK Jr. over Desantis at this point.

---

What exactly has RDS been moderate on? He's actually getting hammered by the moderate, corporate types for campaigning to the right of Trump.

---

I didn't say he was moderate, but his campaign messaging is.

Good breakdown on why:
https://www.adamtownsend.me/desantis-campaign/?clear-cache

---

Trump is attacking DeSantis only from the left ... when his not making moronic comments.

---

What helped Trump is that he said sh i t that people were thinking but we're too afraid to say and it gave him loads of publicity.

"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

Trump only endorsed DeSantis two days before the election, after months of attacking him, and it was more in the form of a prediction: "You're going to re-elect Ron DeSantis as Governor of your state."

---

History is not your strong suit. DeSantis was lagging in the pack in a very large primary field in his FIRST campaign for governor. Trump's endorsement rocketed his campaign to the nomination, and he went on to win the General election in what was at the time a very purple state.

If you were to propose that Trump is a positive in some parts of the country and a negative in others, or that he has had some major hits as well as some major misses, I would agree with you. But, in fact, he has his fingerprints on most of the party. He endorsed Kemp in the primary. He even endorsed Youngkin in the general. Ever heard of Youngkin? Did the Trump endorsement doom him? I seem to remember that Youngkin won in a +9 blue state despite a Trump endorsement. Was Trump a drag in 2020? Yeah, on balance mostly so. But Kryptonite? That some pretty weak kryptonite, as far as kryptonite goes.

Geez, guys. Pointing out uncontestable facts (that you try to obscure) is now derided as shilling for Trump?

---

I wasn't commenting on any of that. RDS' first campaign for governor was in 2018, before Trump jumped the shark. You and HB were talking about 2022; calling RDS a "Trump candidate" in that context is misleading at best.

---

LOL. before Trump was Trump. I got a chuckle over that one. Like...."hey guys, remember that time when everyone liked Trump?"

RDS was most assuredly a Trump candidate when he won the Governorship of a very purple FL, during the heat of the neverTrumper madness over Russia collusion and special counsel investigations & such....in one of those elections cited as evidence for the meme Trump as a loser, drag on the party, terrible candidate selection, etc....

Look. there are plenty of valid ways to critique Trump. But facts are facts. There some very glaring discordant refutations of the "loser Trump" narrative. If you want to use that phrase because HE lost in 2020? spot on. But when you try to stretch out to both horizons, don't be surprised when branches start poking holes in the fabric.

---

It was not purple. I live here and was here for that election. Tampa is Dem. South Florida, especially Cubans are red. Scott had this State locked down. The out of the blue candidate was Guillaume (sp). He was pushed by the Dems because Gwen Myers ran a horrible campaign. He beat her with an urban campaign. DeSantis was last man standing, Trump was not the deciding factor.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

sombear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis has "really underperformed" in his 2024 presidential campaign, former GOP Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan says, calling it "one of the worst" campaigns he's seen so far.@MajorCBS: "Is it over for DeSantis?"

Hogan: "I think it's getting close to being over." pic.twitter.com/Krx8AX9L0x

— CBS News (@CBSNews) June 21, 2023

---

The rumors of the death of Ron DeSantis have been greatly exaggerated. Once Biden exits the race, things will get REALLY interesting.

The talk of a dual party Independent ticket with Joe Manchin running for President and a Republican VP running mate is fascinating to me. Should the Dems and Republicans not abandon a Biden vs. Trump rematch that nobody wants, such a ticket could have a real shot. I certainly would consider it. We shall see.

---

RDS has struggled. It is really, really, really hard to step up from state politics to national politics. He hasta get better. And he may do exactly that. Or he may not. He does have time to do so. The bigger problem is just the emerging perception that, because of his stumbles and overall under-performance to expectations, he's not ready for the big-stage. He's got to break that cycle sooner rather than later, or perception will set in & become reality.

Frankly, if he doesn't get a lot better, he might even miss the ticket altogether.

---

He's basically hired a Jeb Bush campaign blueprint and it absolutely sucks.

The guy is missing out on populist messaging. He's also too formal with his public speaking. He needs to talk personal and bring the fire.

I'd choose RFK Jr. over Desantis at this point.

---

What exactly has RDS been moderate on? He's actually getting hammered by the moderate, corporate types for campaigning to the right of Trump.

---

I didn't say he was moderate, but his campaign messaging is.

Good breakdown on why:
https://www.adamtownsend.me/desantis-campaign/?clear-cache

---

Trump is attacking DeSantis only from the left ... when his not making moronic comments.

---

What helped Trump is that he said sh i t that people were thinking but we're too afraid to say and it gave him loads of publicity.

"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

Trump only endorsed DeSantis two days before the election, after months of attacking him, and it was more in the form of a prediction: "You're going to re-elect Ron DeSantis as Governor of your state."

---

History is not your strong suit. DeSantis was lagging in the pack in a very large primary field in his FIRST campaign for governor. Trump's endorsement rocketed his campaign to the nomination, and he went on to win the General election in what was at the time a very purple state.

If you were to propose that Trump is a positive in some parts of the country and a negative in others, or that he has had some major hits as well as some major misses, I would agree with you. But, in fact, he has his fingerprints on most of the party. He endorsed Kemp in the primary. He even endorsed Youngkin in the general. Ever heard of Youngkin? Did the Trump endorsement doom him? I seem to remember that Youngkin won in a +9 blue state despite a Trump endorsement. Was Trump a drag in 2020? Yeah, on balance mostly so. But Kryptonite? That some pretty weak kryptonite, as far as kryptonite goes.

Geez, guys. Pointing out uncontestable facts (that you try to obscure) is now derided as shilling for Trump?

---

I wasn't commenting on any of that. RDS' first campaign for governor was in 2018, before Trump jumped the shark. You and HB were talking about 2022; calling RDS a "Trump candidate" in that context is misleading at best.

---

LOL. before Trump was Trump. I got a chuckle over that one. Like...."hey guys, remember that time when everyone liked Trump?"

RDS was most assuredly a Trump candidate when he won the Governorship of a very purple FL, during the heat of the neverTrumper madness over Russia collusion and special counsel investigations & such....in one of those elections cited as evidence for the meme Trump as a loser, drag on the party, terrible candidate selection, etc....

Look. there are plenty of valid ways to critique Trump. But facts are facts. There some very glaring discordant refutations of the "loser Trump" narrative. If you want to use that phrase because HE lost in 2020? spot on. But when you try to stretch out to both horizons, don't be surprised when branches start poking holes in the fabric.

---

I haven't used the phrase or made any predictions about 2024. I just don't see what you're accomplishing by convincing yourself it's still 2018. Not everyone liked Trump then, but I did. So did most everyone else here. If that's not a clue, I don't know what to tell you.

---

2018??? GOP lost the Senate! Trumps most vocal supporters lost! Geez, I hope it isn't 2018 over again. Red Wave, my ass.

Small point of order.. Trump didnt lose congress in 2018, he lost the house after the GOP failed to do anything for first 2 years. Thats on the GOP as much as it is Trump.

The COVID media narrative lost Trump the 2020 election. The post 2020 election probably lost Trump any future election.

2018/pre covid Trump was peak Trump

The Pro Trump group will maintain being Pro Trump and the Never Trumpers will not vote for him, he would have to get people to cross over and take the Independents by a strong margin to win the Gen Election. Hard to see that happening

Too many corporate conservatives like JR that enjoy a Dem administration. He has made so much money since Biden came into office.

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

This isn't 2018 my friend. Trump's been on a losing streak since his election. I understand hoping for the best but let's not put our heads in the sand. Trump and trump backed candidates haven't won much since 2018

---

The results are quite a bit more mixed than this argument allows.

---

Not really. The "Trump" candidates who have won since 2016 were strong on their own accord, and as others have pointed out, were begrudgingly endorsed by Trump (see Youngkin and DeSantis). I wouldn't really call DeSantis or Youngkin Trump candidates anyway. The ones who went fullbore Trump lost. See Kari Lake.

I understand the need to spin this in trumps favor, but I think you realize he's pretty much been kryptonite since 2018.

---

LOL. We can't give Trump credit for the wins, because the candidates are strong. Only the losses where the candidates were weak. That is a stronger foundation for the argument that Trump doesn't matter - the good candidates don't need him and he can't help the bad ones.

Facts are facts. For most of the "losses" cited, there was a surprisingly good result somewhere else, as I noted. So I'm not defending anything. Just pointing out the record does not support the conclusion.

---

There's a massive difference between Trump-endorsed candidates (many of which he endorses after his preferred candidate is getting trounced or late in general) and Trump candidates. The fact is, he has a very poor record in general election key races with candidates that were truly Trumpian.

---

LOL lot of qualifiers there......which only serve to highlight the revisionist history.

let's look at RDS: An outspoken Liberty Caucus member in the House, frequent guest on FoxNews shows most evenings, always a vocal thorn in the side of the speaker. Ran for Gov but was badly lagging an establishment statewide elected official. Begged for Trump endorsement. Got it, and it propelled him into the lead. He is the logical successor to Trump, the most Trump-esque candidate visible. Not surprisingly, he's well-ahead of the pack for second place and would probably be unbeatable were the real thing not also in the race.

Remember Brian Kemp? Finished second in the GA Gov primary race but made the runoff. Got the Trump endorsement and won the runoff. Ran a few crazy ads, too. The shotggun ad, the blow something up ad, etc....

Remember Glenn Youngkin? No, he did not get a primary endorsement, but he did get an endorsement for the general and it's hard to say how it hurt him much, given that he won in a +9 blue state.

We could go on like that for a while, you know....

Facts are facts: a Trump endorsement was nigh-on essential to winning a GOP primary in 2018 and 2020. And we did pick up seats in one chamber or other in BOTH cycles. However convenient the kryptonite argument might be for Trump critics, it shatters upon contact with reality. Yes, he lost in 2020, in an election with a couple of asterisks. And we had a disappointing 2022, but somehow here the Trump critics never want to mention Boggs v.Jackson. The strength of candidate argument presumes there were stronger alternatives in the field, and that is very hard to demonstrate....

None of that is to say there aren't valid reasons to be concerned about Trump 3.0.....just that some of the most commonly leveled critiques of him like the Kryptonite meme are not the strongest parts of the case against him.

whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

This isn't 2018 my friend. Trump's been on a losing streak since his election. I understand hoping for the best but let's not put our heads in the sand. Trump and trump backed candidates haven't won much since 2018

---

The results are quite a bit more mixed than this argument allows.

---

Not really. The "Trump" candidates who have won since 2016 were strong on their own accord, and as others have pointed out, were begrudgingly endorsed by Trump (see Youngkin and DeSantis). I wouldn't really call DeSantis or Youngkin Trump candidates anyway. The ones who went fullbore Trump lost. See Kari Lake.

I understand the need to spin this in trumps favor, but I think you realize he's pretty much been kryptonite since 2018.

---

LOL. We can't give Trump credit for the wins, because the candidates are strong. Only the losses where the candidates were weak. That is a stronger foundation for the argument that Trump doesn't matter - the good candidates don't need him and he can't help the bad ones.

Facts are facts. For most of the "losses" cited, there was a surprisingly good result somewhere else, as I noted. So I'm not defending anything. Just pointing out the record does not support the conclusion.

---

There's a massive difference between Trump-endorsed candidates (many of which he endorses after his preferred candidate is getting trounced or late in general) and Trump candidates. The fact is, he has a very poor record in general election key races with candidates that were truly Trumpian.

---

LOL lot of qualifiers there......which only serve to highlight the revisionist history.

let's look at RDS: An outspoken Liberty Caucus member in the House, frequent guest on FoxNews shows most evenings, always a vocal thorn in the side of the speaker. Ran for Gov but was badly lagging an establishment statewide elected official. Begged for Trump endorsement. Got it, and it propelled him into the lead. He is the logical successor to Trump, the most Trump-esque candidate visible. Not surprisingly, he's well-ahead of the pack for second place and would probably be unbeatable were the real thing not also in the race.

Remember Brian Kemp? Finished second in the GA Gov primary race but made the runoff. Got the Trump endorsement and won the runoff. Ran a few crazy ads, too. The shotggun ad, the blow something up ad, etc....

Remember Glenn Youngkin? No, he did not get a primary endorsement, but he did get an endorsement for the general and it's hard to say how it hurt him much, given that he won in a +9 blue state.

We could go on like that for a while, you know....

Facts are facts: a Trump endorsement was nigh-on essential to winning a GOP primary in 2018 and 2020. And we did pick up seats in one chamber or other in BOTH cycles. However convenient the kryptonite argument might be for Trump critics, it shatters upon contact with reality. Yes, he lost in 2020, in an election with a couple of asterisks. And we had a disappointing 2022, but somehow here the Trump critics never want to mention Boggs v.Jackson. The strength of candidate argument presumes there were stronger alternatives in the field, and that is very hard to demonstrate....

None of that is to say there aren't valid reasons to be concerned about Trump 3.0.....just that some of the most commonly leveled critiques of him like the Kryptonite meme are not the strongest parts of the case against him.

---

I'm not sure how primary endorsements (especially 2018) are relevant to the discussion about Trump's losing streak against Dems. And BTW, Kemp was leading when Trump endorsed him. His opponent was in a freefall. Youngkin is a terrible example. He all but hid from Trump in the general. To the extent primaries are relevant, RDS is a fair example.

Yes, there were far better candidates in GA, AZ, PA, and NV. Trump got trounced.

Pro-life candidates did very well; it was the Trumpers who got trounced.

Picked up a seat in one chamber . . . really? Those were massively disappointing cycles.

4th and Inches said:

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Small point of order.. Trump didnt lose congress in 2018, he lost the house after the GOP failed to do anything for first 2 years. Thats on the GOP as much as it is Trump.

The COVID media narrative lost Trump the 2020 election. The post 2020 election probably lost Trump any future election.

2018/pre covid Trump was peak Trump

The Pro Trump group will maintain being Pro Trump and the Never Trumpers will not vote for him, he would have to get people to cross over and take the Independents by a strong margin to win the Gen Election. Hard to see that happening

Too many corporate conservatives like JR that enjoy a Dem administration. He has made so much money since Biden came into office.

---

I generally agree in part, but have a hard time absolving Trump of any blame for 2018 and 2020. His COVID response left MUCH to be desired, and his divisiveness was a huge turnoff to independents and moderates. I agree peak Trump was 2018, but it was a steady decline thereafter, and while I agree some of that is due to outside factors, much of that is on him. If he could have controlled his tongue in 2020, he might still be president.

sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

This isn't 2018 my friend. Trump's been on a losing streak since his election. I understand hoping for the best but let's not put our heads in the sand. Trump and trump backed candidates haven't won much since 2018

---

The results are quite a bit more mixed than this argument allows.

---

Not really. The "Trump" candidates who have won since 2016 were strong on their own accord, and as others have pointed out, were begrudgingly endorsed by Trump (see Youngkin and DeSantis). I wouldn't really call DeSantis or Youngkin Trump candidates anyway. The ones who went fullbore Trump lost. See Kari Lake.

I understand the need to spin this in trumps favor, but I think you realize he's pretty much been kryptonite since 2018.

---

LOL. We can't give Trump credit for the wins, because the candidates are strong. Only the losses where the candidates were weak. That is a stronger foundation for the argument that Trump doesn't matter - the good candidates don't need him and he can't help the bad ones.

Facts are facts. For most of the "losses" cited, there was a surprisingly good result somewhere else, as I noted. So I'm not defending anything. Just pointing out the record does not support the conclusion.

---

There's a massive difference between Trump-endorsed candidates (many of which he endorses after his preferred candidate is getting trounced or late in general) and Trump candidates. The fact is, he has a very poor record in general election key races with candidates that were truly Trumpian.

---

LOL lot of qualifiers there......which only serve to highlight the revisionist history.

let's look at RDS: An outspoken Liberty Caucus member in the House, frequent guest on FoxNews shows most evenings, always a vocal thorn in the side of the speaker. Ran for Gov but was badly lagging an establishment statewide elected official. Begged for Trump endorsement. Got it, and it propelled him into the lead. He is the logical successor to Trump, the most Trump-esque candidate visible. Not surprisingly, he's well-ahead of the pack for second place and would probably be unbeatable were the real thing not also in the race.

Remember Brian Kemp? Finished second in the GA Gov primary race but made the runoff. Got the Trump endorsement and won the runoff. Ran a few crazy ads, too. The shotggun ad, the blow something up ad, etc....

Remember Glenn Youngkin? No, he did not get a primary endorsement, but he did get an endorsement for the general and it's hard to say how it hurt him much, given that he won in a +9 blue state.

We could go on like that for a while, you know....

Facts are facts: a Trump endorsement was nigh-on essential to winning a GOP primary in 2018 and 2020. And we did pick up seats in one chamber or other in BOTH cycles. However convenient the kryptonite argument might be for Trump critics, it shatters upon contact with reality. Yes, he lost in 2020, in an election with a couple of asterisks. And we had a disappointing 2022, but somehow here the Trump critics never want to mention Boggs v.Jackson. The strength of candidate argument presumes there were stronger alternatives in the field, and that is very hard to demonstrate....

None of that is to say there aren't valid reasons to be concerned about Trump 3.0.....just that some of the most commonly leveled critiques of him like the Kryptonite meme are not the strongest parts of the case against him.

---

I'm not sure how primary endorsements (especially 2018) are relevant to the discussion about Trump's losing streak against Dems.

---

This. Nobody ever said or suggested a Trump endorsement didn't help in the primaries. It's interesting how he tries to move the goal posts when the facts don't suit his narrative.

whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

This isn't 2018 my friend. Trump's been on a losing streak since his election. I understand hoping for the best but let's not put our heads in the sand. Trump and trump backed candidates haven't won much since 2018

---

The results are quite a bit more mixed than this argument allows.

---

Not really. The "Trump" candidates who have won since 2016 were strong on their own accord, and as others have pointed out, were begrudgingly endorsed by Trump (see Youngkin and DeSantis). I wouldn't really call DeSantis or Youngkin Trump candidates anyway. The ones who went fullbore Trump lost. See Kari Lake.

I understand the need to spin this in trumps favor, but I think you realize he's pretty much been kryptonite since 2018.

---

LOL. We can't give Trump credit for the wins, because the candidates are strong. Only the losses where the candidates were weak. That is a stronger foundation for the argument that Trump doesn't matter - the good candidates don't need him and he can't help the bad ones.

Facts are facts. For most of the "losses" cited, there was a surprisingly good result somewhere else, as I noted. So I'm not defending anything. Just pointing out the record does not support the conclusion.

---

There's a massive difference between Trump-endorsed candidates (many of which he endorses after his preferred candidate is getting trounced or late in general) and Trump candidates. The fact is, he has a very poor record in general election key races with candidates that were truly Trumpian.

---

LOL lot of qualifiers there......which only serve to highlight the revisionist history.

let's look at RDS: An outspoken Liberty Caucus member in the House, frequent guest on FoxNews shows most evenings, always a vocal thorn in the side of the speaker. Ran for Gov but was badly lagging an establishment statewide elected official. Begged for Trump endorsement. Got it, and it propelled him into the lead. He is the logical successor to Trump, the most Trump-esque candidate visible. Not surprisingly, he's well-ahead of the pack for second place and would probably be unbeatable were the real thing not also in the race.

Remember Brian Kemp? Finished second in the GA Gov primary race but made the runoff. Got the Trump endorsement and won the runoff. Ran a few crazy ads, too. The shotggun ad, the blow something up ad, etc....

Remember Glenn Youngkin? No, he did not get a primary endorsement, but he did get an endorsement for the general and it's hard to say how it hurt him much, given that he won in a +9 blue state.

We could go on like that for a while, you know....

Facts are facts: a Trump endorsement was nigh-on essential to winning a GOP primary in 2018 and 2020. And we did pick up seats in one chamber or other in BOTH cycles. However convenient the kryptonite argument might be for Trump critics, it shatters upon contact with reality. Yes, he lost in 2020, in an election with a couple of asterisks. And we had a disappointing 2022, but somehow here the Trump critics never want to mention Boggs v.Jackson. The strength of candidate argument presumes there were stronger alternatives in the field, and that is very hard to demonstrate....

None of that is to say there aren't valid reasons to be concerned about Trump 3.0.....just that some of the most commonly leveled critiques of him like the Kryptonite meme are not the strongest parts of the case against him.

---

sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

This isn't 2018 my friend. Trump's been on a losing streak since his election. I understand hoping for the best but let's not put our heads in the sand. Trump and trump backed candidates haven't won much since 2018

---

The results are quite a bit more mixed than this argument allows.

---

Not really. The "Trump" candidates who have won since 2016 were strong on their own accord, and as others have pointed out, were begrudgingly endorsed by Trump (see Youngkin and DeSantis). I wouldn't really call DeSantis or Youngkin Trump candidates anyway. The ones who went fullbore Trump lost. See Kari Lake.

I understand the need to spin this in trumps favor, but I think you realize he's pretty much been kryptonite since 2018.

---

LOL. We can't give Trump credit for the wins, because the candidates are strong. Only the losses where the candidates were weak. That is a stronger foundation for the argument that Trump doesn't matter - the good candidates don't need him and he can't help the bad ones.

Facts are facts. For most of the "losses" cited, there was a surprisingly good result somewhere else, as I noted. So I'm not defending anything. Just pointing out the record does not support the conclusion.

---

There's a massive difference between Trump-endorsed candidates (many of which he endorses after his preferred candidate is getting trounced or late in general) and Trump candidates. The fact is, he has a very poor record in general election key races with candidates that were truly Trumpian.

---

LOL lot of qualifiers there......which only serve to highlight the revisionist history.

let's look at RDS: An outspoken Liberty Caucus member in the House, frequent guest on FoxNews shows most evenings, always a vocal thorn in the side of the speaker. Ran for Gov but was badly lagging an establishment statewide elected official. Begged for Trump endorsement. Got it, and it propelled him into the lead. He is the logical successor to Trump, the most Trump-esque candidate visible. Not surprisingly, he's well-ahead of the pack for second place and would probably be unbeatable were the real thing not also in the race.

Remember Brian Kemp? Finished second in the GA Gov primary race but made the runoff. Got the Trump endorsement and won the runoff. Ran a few crazy ads, too. The shotggun ad, the blow something up ad, etc....

Remember Glenn Youngkin? No, he did not get a primary endorsement, but he did get an endorsement for the general and it's hard to say how it hurt him much, given that he won in a +9 blue state.

We could go on like that for a while, you know....

Facts are facts: a Trump endorsement was nigh-on essential to winning a GOP primary in 2018 and 2020. And we did pick up seats in one chamber or other in BOTH cycles. However convenient the kryptonite argument might be for Trump critics, it shatters upon contact with reality. Yes, he lost in 2020, in an election with a couple of asterisks. And we had a disappointing 2022, but somehow here the Trump critics never want to mention Boggs v.Jackson. The strength of candidate argument presumes there were stronger alternatives in the field, and that is very hard to demonstrate....

None of that is to say there aren't valid reasons to be concerned about Trump 3.0.....just that some of the most commonly leveled critiques of him like the Kryptonite meme are not the strongest parts of the case against him.

---

I'm not sure how primary endorsements (especially 2018) are relevant to the discussion about Trump's losing streak against Dems. And BTW, Kemp was leading when Trump endorsed him. His opponent was in a freefall. Youngkin is a terrible example. He all but hid from Trump in the general. To the extent primaries are relevant, RDS is a fair example.

Yes, there were far better candidates in GA, AZ, PA, and NV. Trump got trounced.

Pro-life candidates did very well; it was the Trumpers who got trounced.

Picked up a seat in one chamber . . . really? Those were massively disappointing cycles.

---

Kemp's hand-selected senate candidate got trounced in 2020, right?
A former statewide elected official in NV with a luminous GOP heritage is a bad candidate?
A pro-life absolutist candidate in PA got smoked and his abortion position had nothing to do with it?

If you want to make the case that Trump can be, or has been, a drag in some races/states, I'd not be quibbling with you. But you'd also have to look at where that drag occurs. In two of the states you listed, AZ in particular, the neverTrump GOP vote was greater than the margin of victory. So we have some party unity issues going on = moderates more concerned with power than winning elections.

Look. Trump is a polarizing guy, different than anything we've seen before. But his the record is quite a bit better than your argument needs it to be. "Mixed record" would be accurate. "Missed opportunities" would be accurate." Kryptonite is not. Some of his best selections were full blown MAGA types in purple states. It's not like RDS is softer & gentler than Kari Lake. Arguably, she's the warmer and cuddlier of the two, certainly more polished speaker. And she lost by about the same margin in a purple state than RDS won in a purple state. both elections = squeakers that could have gone either way. So just analytically speaking, the kryptonite construction of your argument is hyperbole. The better case is "a softer, gentler, more moderate candidate would have done better." But, then, we'd have to evaluate the track record of those types of candidates, and when we do, we don't see a terribly uniform outcome either.......

Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

---

Quote:

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Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

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Quote:

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"Because you'd be in jail". He straight up talked sh it like the general public does. Desantis won't do that. He behaves like a corporate stooge being watched by HR.

This also brings up another point about GOP and many GOP voters who think "we need to bring respect and formalism back". They don't get it. You can't allow democrats to be ruthless and try to appear like you won't stoop down to their level, it's a losing strategy.

---

1. Trump barely beat one of the least likely politicians in history.
2. Trump lost to a corpse.
3. Virtually every Trump-backed candidate lost in 2022.

Trump is a loser.

---

That is the establishment GOP line, setting up a case for RDS. But there is a pretty cherry-picking big problem with that argument.

RDS was a Trump-backed candidate, too...
So was Kemp.
Etc......

---

This isn't 2018 my friend. Trump's been on a losing streak since his election. I understand hoping for the best but let's not put our heads in the sand. Trump and trump backed candidates haven't won much since 2018

---

The results are quite a bit more mixed than this argument allows.

---

Not really. The "Trump" candidates who have won since 2016 were strong on their own accord, and as others have pointed out, were begrudgingly endorsed by Trump (see Youngkin and DeSantis). I wouldn't really call DeSantis or Youngkin Trump candidates anyway. The ones who went fullbore Trump lost. See Kari Lake.

I understand the need to spin this in trumps favor, but I think you realize he's pretty much been kryptonite since 2018.

---

LOL. We can't give Trump credit for the wins, because the candidates are strong. Only the losses where the candidates were weak. That is a stronger foundation for the argument that Trump doesn't matter - the good candidates don't need him and he can't help the bad ones.

Facts are facts. For most of the "losses" cited, there was a surprisingly good result somewhere else, as I noted. So I'm not defending anything. Just pointing out the record does not support the conclusion.

---

There's a massive difference between Trump-endorsed candidates (many of which he endorses after his preferred candidate is getting trounced or late in general) and Trump candidates. The fact is, he has a very poor record in general election key races with candidates that were truly Trumpian.

---

LOL lot of qualifiers there......which only serve to highlight the revisionist history.

let's look at RDS: An outspoken Liberty Caucus member in the House, frequent guest on FoxNews shows most evenings, always a vocal thorn in the side of the speaker. Ran for Gov but was badly lagging an establishment statewide elected official. Begged for Trump endorsement. Got it, and it propelled him into the lead. He is the logical successor to Trump, the most Trump-esque candidate visible. Not surprisingly, he's well-ahead of the pack for second place and would probably be unbeatable were the real thing not also in the race.

Remember Brian Kemp? Finished second in the GA Gov primary race but made the runoff. Got the Trump endorsement and won the runoff. Ran a few crazy ads, too. The shotggun ad, the blow something up ad, etc....

Remember Glenn Youngkin? No, he did not get a primary endorsement, but he did get an endorsement for the general and it's hard to say how it hurt him much, given that he won in a +9 blue state.

We could go on like that for a while, you know....

Facts are facts: a Trump endorsement was nigh-on essential to winning a GOP primary in 2018 and 2020. And we did pick up seats in one chamber or other in BOTH cycles. However convenient the kryptonite argument might be for Trump critics, it shatters upon contact with reality. Yes, he lost in 2020, in an election with a couple of asterisks. And we had a disappointing 2022, but somehow here the Trump critics never want to mention Boggs v.Jackson. The strength of candidate argument presumes there were stronger alternatives in the field, and that is very hard to demonstrate....

None of that is to say there aren't valid reasons to be concerned about Trump 3.0.....just that some of the most commonly leveled critiques of him like the Kryptonite meme are not the strongest parts of the case against him.

---

---

if they're in the wrong place, they're in the wrong place. I didn't put them there.....

sombear said:

---

You're omitting so much context. AZ had been a pretty reliable GOP state until Trump lost. And they had a string of popular GOP govs. As with many Trumper candidates, a generic GOP candidate performed far better than Lake (and Oz and Walker). And RDS actually has a record to run on. Lake was a lib suddenly turned Trumper.

There is no way to put lipstick on this pig. Trump has a lousy electoral record. And you have access to some of the same internals I do. He was a cancer in polling in 2022. Virtually every true Trumper candidate either lost or underperformed. There was a reason Trump appeared in 90% of Dem ads.

Laxalt looked good on paper but was never popular in NV. He had already lost a statewide race - governor race by 5 points, first Dem gov in 20 years. And he became even less popular when he loudly parroted Trump's rigged election BS.

---

oh, yeah. Context definitely omitted. Cindy McCain endorsed Biden.
The neverTrump GOP is the difference in AZ. (and same for GA......)
NV has been a purple state for a while now.

The main problem with your argument is that it's static. The electoral map does tend to be static in final outcome for a number of cycles, but internals do show trends blue or red and eventually they get competitive. Things change over time. The big blue wall in the great lakes isn't what it once was. The western states are no longer a sea of red. And mail-in voting has closed the gap in a some narrowly red states that were trending more competitive.

but, mostly, times change. If we accept ALL of your points as gospel, it is entirely possible for Biden to do even worse than Trump, a trend which does appear to be happening. Which makes sense. What a wreck of a man and an administration. Makes Trump look like quite the statesman by comparison.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/donald-trump-wins-swing-state-voters-conditions

whiterock said:

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sombear said:

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You're omitting so much context. AZ had been a pretty reliable GOP state until Trump lost. And they had a string of popular GOP govs. As with many Trumper candidates, a generic GOP candidate performed far better than Lake (and Oz and Walker). And RDS actually has a record to run on. Lake was a lib suddenly turned Trumper.

There is no way to put lipstick on this pig. Trump has a lousy electoral record. And you have access to some of the same internals I do. He was a cancer in polling in 2022. Virtually every true Trumper candidate either lost or underperformed. There was a reason Trump appeared in 90% of Dem ads.

Laxalt looked good on paper but was never popular in NV. He had already lost a statewide race - governor race by 5 points, first Dem gov in 20 years. And he became even less popular when he loudly parroted Trump's rigged election BS.

---

oh, yeah. Context definitely omitted. Cindy McCain endorsed Biden.
The neverTrump GOP is the difference in AZ. (and same for GA......)
NV has been a purple state for a while now.

The main problem with your argument is that it's static. The electoral map does tend to be static in final outcome for a number of cycles, but internals do show trends blue or red and eventually they get competitive. Things change over time. The big blue wall in the great lakes isn't what it once was. The western states are no longer a sea of red. And mail-in voting has closed the gap in a some narrowly red states that were trending more competitive.

but, mostly, times change. If we accept ALL of your points as gospel, it is entirely possible for Biden to do even worse than Trump, a trend which does appear to be happening. Which makes sense. What a wreck of a man and an administration. Makes Trump look like quite the statesman by comparison.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/donald-trump-wins-swing-state-voters-conditions

---

On that we can agree. Biden is so bad that I've changed my mind and believe Trump has a fighting chance. I still think the other GOP candidates would do much better and that Trump is still the underdog, but he could win.

BTW given what Trump said about John McCain, I would have done the same thing as Cindy . . . .

sombear said:

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whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

You're omitting so much context. AZ had been a pretty reliable GOP state until Trump lost. And they had a string of popular GOP govs. As with many Trumper candidates, a generic GOP candidate performed far better than Lake (and Oz and Walker). And RDS actually has a record to run on. Lake was a lib suddenly turned Trumper.

There is no way to put lipstick on this pig. Trump has a lousy electoral record. And you have access to some of the same internals I do. He was a cancer in polling in 2022. Virtually every true Trumper candidate either lost or underperformed. There was a reason Trump appeared in 90% of Dem ads.

Laxalt looked good on paper but was never popular in NV. He had already lost a statewide race - governor race by 5 points, first Dem gov in 20 years. And he became even less popular when he loudly parroted Trump's rigged election BS.

---

oh, yeah. Context definitely omitted. Cindy McCain endorsed Biden.
The neverTrump GOP is the difference in AZ. (and same for GA......)
NV has been a purple state for a while now.

The main problem with your argument is that it's static. The electoral map does tend to be static in final outcome for a number of cycles, but internals do show trends blue or red and eventually they get competitive. Things change over time. The big blue wall in the great lakes isn't what it once was. The western states are no longer a sea of red. And mail-in voting has closed the gap in a some narrowly red states that were trending more competitive.

but, mostly, times change. If we accept ALL of your points as gospel, it is entirely possible for Biden to do even worse than Trump, a trend which does appear to be happening. Which makes sense. What a wreck of a man and an administration. Makes Trump look like quite the statesman by comparison.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/donald-trump-wins-swing-state-voters-conditions

---

On that we can agree. Biden is so bad that I've changed my mind and believe Trump has a fighting chance. I still think the other GOP candidates would do much better and that Trump is still the underdog, but he could win.

BTW given what Trump said about John McCain, I would have done the same thing as Cindy . . . .

---

Trump turned AZ blue with a big assist from Lake. AZ used to have 2 GOP senators; then Trump

Blaming Trump for everything in 2020/22 is as stupid as giving him all the credit for 2016. Historically, the Democrats can count on 232 EV from 20 states plus DC, while the Republicans can count on 218 EV from 22 states plus one Maine District. Eight states will decide the 2024 election, so it comes down to who can win the following states:


Florida: 29 EV, won by Trump in both 2016 and 2020, but with less than a majority in 2016
Pennsylvania: 20 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020, just look at Fetterman and understand no prediction is trustworthy here
Georgia: 16 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020 (Both times GA was far from the national average of support)
Michigan: 16 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020
North Carolina: 15 EV, won by Trump in both 2016 and 202, but with less than a majority each time
Arizona: 11 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020
Wisconsin: 10 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020
Utah: 6 EV, won by Trump in both 2016 and 2020, but with less than a majority in 2016

With no state polls out yet, this race is wide open.

Osodecentx said:

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sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

You're omitting so much context. AZ had been a pretty reliable GOP state until Trump lost. And they had a string of popular GOP govs. As with many Trumper candidates, a generic GOP candidate performed far better than Lake (and Oz and Walker). And RDS actually has a record to run on. Lake was a lib suddenly turned Trumper.

There is no way to put lipstick on this pig. Trump has a lousy electoral record. And you have access to some of the same internals I do. He was a cancer in polling in 2022. Virtually every true Trumper candidate either lost or underperformed. There was a reason Trump appeared in 90% of Dem ads.

Laxalt looked good on paper but was never popular in NV. He had already lost a statewide race - governor race by 5 points, first Dem gov in 20 years. And he became even less popular when he loudly parroted Trump's rigged election BS.

---

oh, yeah. Context definitely omitted. Cindy McCain endorsed Biden.
The neverTrump GOP is the difference in AZ. (and same for GA......)
NV has been a purple state for a while now.

The main problem with your argument is that it's static. The electoral map does tend to be static in final outcome for a number of cycles, but internals do show trends blue or red and eventually they get competitive. Things change over time. The big blue wall in the great lakes isn't what it once was. The western states are no longer a sea of red. And mail-in voting has closed the gap in a some narrowly red states that were trending more competitive.

but, mostly, times change. If we accept ALL of your points as gospel, it is entirely possible for Biden to do even worse than Trump, a trend which does appear to be happening. Which makes sense. What a wreck of a man and an administration. Makes Trump look like quite the statesman by comparison.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/donald-trump-wins-swing-state-voters-conditions

---

On that we can agree. Biden is so bad that I've changed my mind and believe Trump has a fighting chance. I still think the other GOP candidates would do much better and that Trump is still the underdog, but he could win.

BTW given what Trump said about John McCain, I would have done the same thing as Cindy . . . .

---

Trump turned AZ blue with a big assist from Lake. AZ used to have 2 GOP senators; then Trump

---

Georgia says "Hold my beer!"

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

You're omitting so much context. AZ had been a pretty reliable GOP state until Trump lost. And they had a string of popular GOP govs. As with many Trumper candidates, a generic GOP candidate performed far better than Lake (and Oz and Walker). And RDS actually has a record to run on. Lake was a lib suddenly turned Trumper.

There is no way to put lipstick on this pig. Trump has a lousy electoral record. And you have access to some of the same internals I do. He was a cancer in polling in 2022. Virtually every true Trumper candidate either lost or underperformed. There was a reason Trump appeared in 90% of Dem ads.

Laxalt looked good on paper but was never popular in NV. He had already lost a statewide race - governor race by 5 points, first Dem gov in 20 years. And he became even less popular when he loudly parroted Trump's rigged election BS.

---

oh, yeah. Context definitely omitted. Cindy McCain endorsed Biden.
The neverTrump GOP is the difference in AZ. (and same for GA......)
NV has been a purple state for a while now.

The main problem with your argument is that it's static. The electoral map does tend to be static in final outcome for a number of cycles, but internals do show trends blue or red and eventually they get competitive. Things change over time. The big blue wall in the great lakes isn't what it once was. The western states are no longer a sea of red. And mail-in voting has closed the gap in a some narrowly red states that were trending more competitive.

but, mostly, times change. If we accept ALL of your points as gospel, it is entirely possible for Biden to do even worse than Trump, a trend which does appear to be happening. Which makes sense. What a wreck of a man and an administration. Makes Trump look like quite the statesman by comparison.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/donald-trump-wins-swing-state-voters-conditions

---

On that we can agree. Biden is so bad that I've changed my mind and believe Trump has a fighting chance. I still think the other GOP candidates would do much better and that Trump is still the underdog, but he could win.

BTW given what Trump said about John McCain, I would have done the same thing as Cindy . . . .

---

Spot on, especially the bolded part, though I am not as optimistic about Trump having much of a chance to beat even an abysmal Biden. I think he loses soundly in the general. The frustrating aspect of that is I agree with you that most of the Republican candidates would beat Biden in the election.

I suspect this is all going according to the Dems plans. They want Trump - the much more beatable candidate - to be the nominee. Biden will have a much easier time against him than say someone like DeSantis, who would eat his lunch.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Blaming Trump for everything in 2020/22 is as stupid as giving him all the credit for 2016. Historically, the Democrats can count on 232 EV from 20 states plus DC, while the Republicans can count on 218 EV from 22 states plus one Maine District. Eight states will decide the 2024 election, so it comes down to who can win the following states:


Florida: 29 EV, won by Trump in both 2016 and 2020, but with less than a majority in 2016
Pennsylvania: 20 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020, just look at Fetterman and understand no prediction is trustworthy here
Georgia: 16 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020 (Both times GA was far from the national average of support)
Michigan: 16 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020
North Carolina: 15 EV, won by Trump in both 2016 and 202, but with less than a majority each time
Arizona: 11 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020
Wisconsin: 10 EV, won by Trump in 2016, Biden in 2020
Utah: 6 EV, won by Trump in both 2016 and 2020, but with less than a majority in 2016

With no state polls out yet, this race is wide open.

---

On this we agree.

It looks like Trump is trying to be declared the winner before any Primaries occur. Popular vote means nothing. If Trump gets a surprise or 2 in NH, Iowa or SC all bets are off.

For the General, you are correct those 8 states will determine the winner.

There is no way Trump wins this.

sombear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

sombear said:

---

You're omitting so much context. AZ had been a pretty reliable GOP state until Trump lost. And they had a string of popular GOP govs. As with many Trumper candidates, a generic GOP candidate performed far better than Lake (and Oz and Walker). And RDS actually has a record to run on. Lake was a lib suddenly turned Trumper.

There is no way to put lipstick on this pig. Trump has a lousy electoral record. And you have access to some of the same internals I do. He was a cancer in polling in 2022. Virtually every true Trumper candidate either lost or underperformed. There was a reason Trump appeared in 90% of Dem ads.

Laxalt looked good on paper but was never popular in NV. He had already lost a statewide race - governor race by 5 points, first Dem gov in 20 years. And he became even less popular when he loudly parroted Trump's rigged election BS.

---

oh, yeah. Context definitely omitted. Cindy McCain endorsed Biden.
The neverTrump GOP is the difference in AZ. (and same for GA......)
NV has been a purple state for a while now.

The main problem with your argument is that it's static. The electoral map does tend to be static in final outcome for a number of cycles, but internals do show trends blue or red and eventually they get competitive. Things change over time. The big blue wall in the great lakes isn't what it once was. The western states are no longer a sea of red. And mail-in voting has closed the gap in a some narrowly red states that were trending more competitive.

but, mostly, times change. If we accept ALL of your points as gospel, it is entirely possible for Biden to do even worse than Trump, a trend which does appear to be happening. Which makes sense. What a wreck of a man and an administration. Makes Trump look like quite the statesman by comparison.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/donald-trump-wins-swing-state-voters-conditions

---

On that we can agree. Biden is so bad that I've changed my mind and believe Trump has a fighting chance. I still think the other GOP candidates would do much better and that Trump is still the underdog, but he could win.

BTW given what Trump said about John McCain, I would have done the same thing as Cindy . . . .

---

If the establishment was all it purported itself to be, it would have smiled and endorsed Trump. But instead, Cindy made it personal (as McCain himself was wont to do) and engaged in the same kind of behavior she purportedly abhored.

She could have said "no thanks" when he asked for a check. But endorsing a Democrat is spiteful and unforgivable. Talk about sowing ill will.......

Can't imagine the DeSantis team likes this news.

New polls on @FoxNewsSunday just now. DeSantis behind Haley in SC. Scott within 5 of DeSantis in Iowa. Trump 30 or more points ahead in both.

Iowa
Trump: 46
DeSantis: 16
Scott: 11

South Carolina:
Trump: 48
Haley: 14
DeSantis: 13
Scott: 10 pic.twitter.com/0M1R3n7dnJ

— Alex Thompson (@AlexThomp) July 23, 2023

HuMcK said:

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Can't imagine the DeSantis team likes this news.

New polls on @FoxNewsSunday just now. DeSantis behind Haley in SC. Scott within 5 of DeSantis in Iowa. Trump 30 or more points ahead in both.

Iowa
Trump: 46
DeSantis: 16
Scott: 11

South Carolina:
Trump: 48
Haley: 14
DeSantis: 13
Scott: 10 pic.twitter.com/0M1R3n7dnJ

— Alex Thompson (@AlexThomp) July 23, 2023

---

Haley is on fire!!!!!!!! LOL! If you believe that you probably think Joe and Hunter Biden are squeaky clean and patriotic Americans.

The Democrat Party and mainstream media want DeSantis out. The Only Trumpers want DeSantis out. Good to see that the Dems and Trumpers are able to come together and agree on something.

"Too many mindless drones out there supporting Trump. "

This is not a wise statement to make about Trump's base.

Like it or not, if you want the White House and you are a Republican, you need to win over Trump's base.

Very few of them can accurately be described as 'mindless drones'. That phrase actually is far more accurate applied to Biden's supporters, in light of all we know about him.

The good news, is that DeSantis can win the states needed to make the difference, as long as he has Trump's base behind him.

The second bit of good news, is that the Democrats have been late in beginning to consider replacing Biden with someone else on their ticket. Given the machinations which took place in the 2016 and 2020 elections, it's likely there will be some confusion among Democrats on who they are expected to support, making the primary season enough of a mess that we have time to work things out on our side.

The third bit of good news, is that very fact that most of Trump's supporters are actually reasonable people who just want certain assurances about draining the Swamp, making government accountable, and undoing the damage done by the Left since 2020. There are several Republican candidates who can serve that expectation this time, which was not the case in 2016 or 2020.

Oldbear83 said:

---

"Too many mindless drones out there supporting Trump. "

This is not a wise statement to make about Trump's base.

Like it or not, if you want the White House and you are a Republican, you need to win over Trump's base.

Very few of them can accurately be described as 'mindless drones'. That phrase actually is far more accurate applied to Biden's supporters, in light of all we know about him.

The good news, is that DeSantis can win the states needed to make the difference, as long as he has Trump's base behind him.

The second bit of good news, is that the Democrats have been late in beginning to consider replacing Biden with someone else on their ticket. Given the machinations which took place in the 2016 and 2020 elections, it's likely there will be some confusion among Democrats on who they are expected to support, making the primary season enough of a mess that we have time to work things out on our side.

The third bit of good news, is that very fact that most of Trump's supporters are actually reasonable people who just want certain assurances about draining the Swamp, making government accountable, and undoing the damage done by the Left since 2020. There are several Republican candidates who can serve that expectation this time, which was not the case in 2016 or 2020.

---

Anyone who thinks DeSantis is liberal while Trump is a conservative lacks a certain amount of critical thinking skills and easily buys propaganda. In that sense I don't know that his sycophants are all that different from Biden's supporters.

I've lost hope that DeSantis has the ability to woo Trumpists. Trump's attacks on DeSantis have just done far too much damage. As such I think it's going to be Trump, in which case he loses a somewhat close race to Biden.

If the Dems wise up and run a guy like Newsom, I think he beats Trump in a landslide. Either way conservatives lose. Again.

"Anyone who thinks DeSantis is liberal while Trump is a conservative lacks a certain amount of critical thinking skills and easily buys propaganda. In that sense I don't know that his sycophants are all that different from Biden's supporters."

Again, that is an assumption, not borne out in fact from what I have seen.

That is, the Trump supporters I talk to are very angry at how he has been treated in these cases. It's not that DeSantis is seen as liberal by Trump supporters, it's that he is not seen as doing all that much to defend Trump. That's unfair to DeSantis, of course, but it's far less odious than the idea that DeSantis is somehow seen as a liberal.

I also think that with the entire Primary season ahead of us, this is far from a sure thing for Trump. Despite the hype, Trump voters are issues voters, they just think Trump has a lock on the issues ... for now.

Mothra said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

"Too many mindless drones out there supporting Trump. "

This is not a wise statement to make about Trump's base.

Like it or not, if you want the White House and you are a Republican, you need to win over Trump's base.

Very few of them can accurately be described as 'mindless drones'. That phrase actually is far more accurate applied to Biden's supporters, in light of all we know about him.

The good news, is that DeSantis can win the states needed to make the difference, as long as he has Trump's base behind him.

The second bit of good news, is that the Democrats have been late in beginning to consider replacing Biden with someone else on their ticket. Given the machinations which took place in the 2016 and 2020 elections, it's likely there will be some confusion among Democrats on who they are expected to support, making the primary season enough of a mess that we have time to work things out on our side.

The third bit of good news, is that very fact that most of Trump's supporters are actually reasonable people who just want certain assurances about draining the Swamp, making government accountable, and undoing the damage done by the Left since 2020. There are several Republican candidates who can serve that expectation this time, which was not the case in 2016 or 2020.

---

If the Dems wise up and run a guy like Newsom, I think he beats Trump in a landslide. Either way conservatives lose. Again.

---

Yep

4th and Inches said:

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Small point of order.. Trump didnt lose congress in 2018, he lost the house after the GOP failed to do anything for first 2 years. Thats on the GOP as much as it is Trump.

The COVID media narrative lost Trump the 2020 election. The post 2020 election probably lost Trump any future election.

2018/pre covid Trump was peak Trump

The Pro Trump group will maintain being Pro Trump and the Never Trumpers will not vote for him, he would have to get people to cross over and take the Independents by a strong margin to win the Gen Election. Hard to see that happening

Too many corporate conservatives like JR that enjoy a Dem administration. He has made so much money since Biden came into office.

---

Firstly, I'm not a Corporate Conservative. I'm just your generic business guy who works for himself. I'm an Independent who leans hard Rep. Unfortunately, the R's (maga nonsense)have FUBARD the party. Yes, generally speaking in my business (oil and gas) are much more profitable under the dems. The reason is that they dumb mfers always try to run us out of business with regs and new energy and it always blows up in their face. Thanks Joe and Obama. Just wanted to clarify .

Let's face it. It hasn't been a great start for @RonDeSantis

But, he's killing it with Texas donors still. I broke down TX fundraising and he's outraising Trump with Texas donors since getting in the race.

PS: Check out @NikkiHaley's TX haulhttps://t.co/Nd4EmaJTU3

— Jeremy Wallace (@JeremySWallace) July 24, 2023

IMO. Vivek Ramaswamy is the only primary candidate who has a chance of cutting into Trump's lead. No chance though in the general election this time around.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Let's face it. It hasn't been a great start for @RonDeSantis

But, he's killing it with Texas donors still. I broke down TX fundraising and he's outraising Trump with Texas donors since getting in the race.

PS: Check out @NikkiHaley's TX haulhttps://t.co/Nd4EmaJTU3

— Jeremy Wallace (@JeremySWallace) July 24, 2023

---

Went grocery shopping at HEB in Seguin yesterday wearing my DeSantis 2024 t-shirt and was somewhat shocked by the number of positive responses!

We must remember the election is still 15 months away. A whole bunch of things are gonna change between now and then.

---

Wear a Biden '24 shirt next time you go to the store and see what reaction you get.

ABC BEAR said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

Let's face it. It hasn't been a great start for @RonDeSantis

But, he's killing it with Texas donors still. I broke down TX fundraising and he's outraising Trump with Texas donors since getting in the race.

PS: Check out @NikkiHaley's TX haulhttps://t.co/Nd4EmaJTU3

— Jeremy Wallace (@JeremySWallace) July 24, 2023

---

Went grocery shopping at HEB in Seguin yesterday wearing my DeSantis 2024 t-shirt and was somewhat shocked by the number of positive responses!

We must remember the election is still 15 months away. A whole bunch of things are gonna change between now and then.

---

Wear a Biden '24 shirt next time you go to the store and see what reaction you get.

---

Same reaction. They're just glad he's wearing a shirt!