My response, which you did not request, is that there are times, when in my opinion, you present some very good arguments, including resources to support them.
Others may disagree with me, as I think that it is the manner in which you present your argument.

Below are some proven examples of how some individuals are often more successful in presenting their ideas:

Before You Speak

Listen Actively: Show you understand their viewpoint before countering; acknowledge their valid points.

Stay Calm: Avoid emotional reactions, as defensiveness shuts down discussion.

Don't Make it Personal: Focus on the ideas, not the individual's character or beliefs.

How to Frame Your View
Use "I" Statements: Say "I think..." or "In my experience..." instead of "You're wrong" to avoid blame.

Acknowledge & Bridge: "I understand your reasoning, and in my opinion..." or "Your points about X are valid; my thought is...".

Avoid "But" & "However": These can minimize the other person's ideas; try "and" or rephrase to avoid them.

Ask Questions: "What's your perspective on...?" or "How did you arrive at that conclusion?" shows curiosity, not challenge.

Be Humble: Admit you could be wrong or that you might need more information.

Structuring Your Argument
Introduce the Counter: Briefly state the opposing view you're addressing to show you understand it.

State Your Objection: Clearly present your differing perspective.

Provide Evidence: Support your rebuttal with logical reasons or data.

Concede Limitations: Acknowledge the boundaries of your own argument if necessary.

Example Phrases
"That's a really interesting point about [topic]. My concern is that it might impact [result], based on what I've seen...".
"I can see why you'd say that. From my perspective, we could also consider...".

It's not uncommon that I agree with what you post; however, neither is it uncommon for me to just skip them due to the manner in which you state them, despite the rationale in which you defend it.

BUDOS said:

---

My response, which you did not request, is that there are times, when in my opinion, you present some very good arguments, including resources to support them.
Others may disagree with me, as I think that it is the manner in which you present your argument.

Below are some proven examples of how some individuals are often more successful in presenting their ideas:

Before You Speak

Listen Actively: Show you understand their viewpoint before countering; acknowledge their valid points.

Stay Calm: Avoid emotional reactions, as defensiveness shuts down discussion.

Don't Make it Personal: Focus on the ideas, not the individual's character or beliefs.

How to Frame Your View
Use "I" Statements: Say "I think..." or "In my experience..." instead of "You're wrong" to avoid blame.

Acknowledge & Bridge: "I understand your reasoning, and in my opinion..." or "Your points about X are valid; my thought is...".

Avoid "But" & "However": These can minimize the other person's ideas; try "and" or rephrase to avoid them.

Ask Questions: "What's your perspective on...?" or "How did you arrive at that conclusion?" shows curiosity, not challenge.

Be Humble: Admit you could be wrong or that you might need more information.

Structuring Your Argument
Introduce the Counter: Briefly state the opposing view you're addressing to show you understand it.

State Your Objection: Clearly present your differing perspective.

Provide Evidence: Support your rebuttal with logical reasons or data.

Concede Limitations: Acknowledge the boundaries of your own argument if necessary.

Example Phrases
"That's a really interesting point about [topic]. My concern is that it might impact [result], based on what I've seen...".
"I can see why you'd say that. From my perspective, we could also consider...".

I expect your usual vitriol, based on repeated personal experience, however, I have hope.

---

I have a suggestion for you. Instead of having "hope" someone will follow your advice....why not follow them yourself? And instead of selectively targeting me, why don't you stop being a hypocrite and hold yourself and others, like OldBear and FreedomBear, to the same? Because maybe you don't see it, but you're coming across as a preachy fraud, who really doesn't care about the truth.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear: " this is a lecture."

No, this is a real debate. You are just upset that reasonable people challenge your lack of scriptural support for your claims, and that you try to wave away Marianism's pernicious threat to many immature bellievers.

---

That is the problem, you are only accepting one side - scripture. The one for one reconciliation isn't there, it cant be. We view Scripture and Church Tradition. You discount anything but scripture. of course there is no reconciliation that is why we had the reformation! Those who didnt believe, left. There can be no answer that makes both sides happy.

By the way, we are all flawed in some way...

---

I don't know about you, but the most impressive Christians I know are people I met, who held modest titles or none, whose names were unknown because they did not seek fame, but whose work would put most of us to shame.

---

I would include many priests among those.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear: " this is a lecture."

No, this is a real debate. You are just upset that reasonable people challenge your lack of scriptural support for your claims, and that you try to wave away Marianism's pernicious threat to many immature bellievers.

---

That is the problem, you are only accepting one side - scripture. The one for one reconciliation isn't there, it cant be. We view Scripture and Church Tradition. You discount anything but scripture. of course there is no reconciliation that is why we had the reformation! Those who didnt believe, left. There can be no answer that makes both sides happy.

By the way, we are all flawed in some way...

---

I don't know about you, but the most impressive Christians I know are people I met, who held modest titles or none, whose names were unknown because they did not seek fame, but whose work would put most of us to shame.

---

I would include many priests among those.

---

If you had read four words further, you would notice I included Roman Catholics.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear: " this is a lecture."

No, this is a real debate. You are just upset that reasonable people challenge your lack of scriptural support for your claims, and that you try to wave away Marianism's pernicious threat to many immature bellievers.

---

That is the problem, you are only accepting one side - scripture. The one for one reconciliation isn't there, it cant be. We view Scripture and Church Tradition. You discount anything but scripture. of course there is no reconciliation that is why we had the reformation! Those who didnt believe, left. There can be no answer that makes both sides happy.

By the way, we are all flawed in some way...

---

I don't know about you, but the most impressive Christians I know are people I met, who held modest titles or none, whose names were unknown because they did not seek fame, but whose work would put most of us to shame.

---

I would include many priests among those.

---

If you had read four words further, you would notice I included Roman Catholics.

---

But not Catholic clergy.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear: " this is a lecture."

No, this is a real debate. You are just upset that reasonable people challenge your lack of scriptural support for your claims, and that you try to wave away Marianism's pernicious threat to many immature bellievers.

---

That is the problem, you are only accepting one side - scripture. The one for one reconciliation isn't there, it cant be. We view Scripture and Church Tradition. You discount anything but scripture. of course there is no reconciliation that is why we had the reformation! Those who didnt believe, left. There can be no answer that makes both sides happy.

By the way, we are all flawed in some way...

---

I don't know about you, but the most impressive Christians I know are people I met, who held modest titles or none, whose names were unknown because they did not seek fame, but whose work would put most of us to shame.

---

I would include many priests among those.

---

If you had read four words further, you would notice I included Roman Catholics.

---

But not Catholic clergy.

---

I was speaking of my personal experience.

If Mary didnt give birth to Jesus, who is God, to whom did she give birth?

Fre3dombear said:

---

If Mary didnt give birth to Jesus, who is God, to whom did she give birth?

---

Matthew 12:46-50

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

If Mary didnt give birth to Jesus, who is God, to whom did she give birth?

---

Matthew 12:46-50

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

---

John 19:26-27

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother."

We can and have been doing this for 1000 years. We will not agree.

You keep running to a man interpreted book, which there is NO scripture supporting that the version you read is the correct one. I guess Luther tradition is ok, but that is another discussion. But, regardless you think we are doomed for idiology.

From our point of view, you have fallen away from the true Church and fell for Satan's trap of believing that you as a Man can determine what is "true" and what isn't. I feel bad for you guys.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

If Mary didnt give birth to Jesus, who is God, to whom did she give birth?

---

Matthew 12:46-50

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

---

John 19:26-27

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother."

We can and have been doing this for 1000 years. We will not agree.

You keep running to a man interpreted book, which there is NO scripture supporting that the version you read is the correct one. I guess Luther tradition is ok, but that is another discussion. But, regardless you think we are doomed for idiology.

From our point of view, you have fallen away from the true Church and fell for Satan's trap of believing that you as a Man can determine what is "true" and what isn't. I feel bad for you guys.

---

You missed the point.

No one denies Mary was Jesus' mum. But nowhere does that make her Queen, a co-intercessor, or any of the other blasphemous stuff some here have touted.

Scripture is how you test human claims.

---

Well, since we are done with discussion and moved to telling.

Salvation comes through Christ as the head and his Church the Body. Christ and The Church cannot be separated. You can read Luther's, Calvin's, or John Smith's bible all you like, it is a good intellectual exercise. But, salvation is through faith and the gift of God's Grace preparing through participation in his Church, not Bible Study or a one time ticket from declaring you are saved. You are adults that know, make your own decision and follow your heart. Faith can't be faked.

By the way, reading scripture without the Church Tradition is like reading an encrypted message without the key. The two go together.

Sorry, there is absolutely no need for the Roman Catholics to tell everyone what you think we should believe.

Once you abandoned Jesus in favor of your 'tradition', you abandoned the Holy Spirit.

There are certainly Roman Catholics who remained faithful to Christ, but they did that through the Holy Spirit, not some dude in Rome.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sorry, there is absolutely no need for the Roman Catholics to tell everyone what you think we should believe.

Once you abandoned Jesus in favor of your 'tradition', you abandoned the Holy Spirit.

There are certainly Roman Catholics who remained faithful to Christ, but they did that through the Holy Spirit, not some dude in Rome.

---

You are doing it everyday. Tradition cannot be separated or it is Bible Study. Just like a service without sacraments is Bible Study.

You just explained to us what Scripture is for and how to use it. Why wouldn't i tell you our believes? Turnabout is fair play, right old man? We paid our Baylor tuition...

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

If Mary didnt give birth to Jesus, who is God, to whom did she give birth?

---

Matthew 12:46-50

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

---

John 19:26-27

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother."

We can and have been doing this for 1000 years. We will not agree.

You keep running to a man interpreted book, which there is NO scripture supporting that the version you read is the correct one. I guess Luther tradition is ok, but that is another discussion. But, regardless you think we are doomed for idiology.

From our point of view, you have fallen away from the true Church and fell for Satan's trap of believing that you as a Man can determine what is "true" and what isn't. I feel bad for you guys.

---

Jesus isn't even calling Mary his "mother" in the verse you gave. He calls her "woman". You're only furthering the point. In fact, the only time Jesus references Mary as a "mother" is when he is saying she is JOHN'S mother, not his.

I really do wonder about you guys.

" Tradition cannot be separated or it is Bible Study"

That is a lie.

Lying is a sin, even for Roman Catholics.

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Tradition cannot be separated or it is Bible Study"

That is a lie.

Lying is a sin, even for Roman Catholics.

---

Scripture service alone is Bible Study. They read certain passages and they tell you what it means. You may sing a song or agree with an "amen", but that is it. There is nothing after, no actions on your part, as you have been saved since 1972. No requirement to be better Christian or try to do better. No need to confess to account for yourself. Your actions are dirty rags to God, right? You are forgiven because you asked for it when you were 16ish. You got the stamp and it is done. As long as you believe that is it. Luther's translation says so and all that matters is his Bible. Any passages to the contrary are not literal.

That is not how we believe it works.

Church Tradition and the Word are inseparably linked. The Church bases church tradition off of the combination of scripture and church history. You can see in the Mass, the Word is part of the Mass, not the entire service. You are missing the Sacraments. Missing the effort to do better and account for our actions. To try and perfect life, it cant be put their is value in the effort. We dont succeed all the time. (You are a penance trip for me, I enjoy ****ing with you too much. This week will be a bunch of Our Fathers...)

So, you only get half the picture because you are only reading half the book. But, everyone's path is different. We dont do it here, we do it in Purgatory.

That is why i feel bad about Protestants. : )

Show me the verses where Jesus spoke of 'purgatory'.

Pope quotes don't count.

Your 'tradition' is pretty much just RC bullying, and won't work on most adults now.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Show me the verses where Jesus spoke of 'purgatory'.

Pope quotes don't count.

Your 'tradition' is pretty much just RC bullying, and won't work on most adults now.

---

1 Corinthians 3:12
Malichi 3:2
Phillipians 1:6

Those are the ones I pretty much hang my hat that the concept is scriptual. There are more, the theme of sin being purged through fire are pretty much throughout the Bible, it is not a unique concept. Purgatory has been a part of Church teaching and tradition since the 1st Century. Luther was a big proponent, until he wasn't (like most things he believed). It only went away when Men decided that they knew more and every Word had to be reconciled to their Bible.

Except Trinity, you don't believe in the Trinity? It isn't in the Bible. Hey, a fun game. Let's list the things not in the Bible that Protestants belief. Game?

Faith alone, not Biblical.
Sola Scriptura is not Biblical.
Rapture, not there.
That all revelation ended with the Apostles, not Biblical

This is fun, thanks guys. These discussions has really helped me get back in touch with a lot of my Religion that I haven't thought about for a long time. Since I have been on this site, I have been more diligent and enjoyed Mass more. Hope it helps you on your path, since we will all meet at the end in the same place. (I could say Purgatory, but that would be a dick move...)

" Faith alone, not Biblical."

I agree, actually. Didn't James write " As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead"?

Of course, Jesus seems to have thought very highly of faith, from the Roman Centurion to the woman to whom He said "your faith has healed you" (Matthew 9:22), or the power of faith even to move mountains (Matthew 21:21).

And that's just a start.


"Sola Scriptura is not Biblical."

Also true, although Jesus seemed to believe it was important to show Scriptural support when He spoke.


"Rapture, not there."

The word, no. The event, however, one might consider what 1st Corinthians 15:52 says, as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Sorry if it bothers you, but I really do like to keep God's word attached to the discussion.

Oldbear83 said:

---

" Faith alone, not Biblical."

I agree, actually. Didn't James write " As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead"?

---

Jesus and Paul literally contradict you.

James saying that "faith without deeds is dead" is not saying the deeds are what save you. If he was saying that, then he and Paul would be in direct contradiction. James is saying that the kind of faith that saves is the kind that has works (given time and opportunity). But Scripture is clear that faith alone saves, apart from works.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people use James' words which they don't understand correctly to invalidate everything else in Scripture about salvation.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

If Mary didnt give birth to Jesus, who is God, to whom did she give birth?

---

Matthew 12:46-50

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

---

If you educate yourself on the original words it will all be clear.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Sorry, there is absolutely no need for the Roman Catholics to tell everyone what you think we should believe.

Once you abandoned Jesus in favor of your 'tradition', you abandoned the Holy Spirit.

There are certainly Roman Catholics who remained faithful to Christ, but they did that through the Holy Spirit, not some dude in Rome.

---

You are doing it everyday. Tradition cannot be separated or it is Bible Study. Just like a service without sacraments is Bible Study.

You just explained to us what Scripture is for and how to use it. Why wouldn't i tell you our believes? Turnabout is fair play, right old man? We paid our Baylor tuition...

---

Can't have worship without sacrifice. Protestants have no sacrifice so no Worship.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

If Mary didnt give birth to Jesus, who is God, to whom did she give birth?

---

Matthew 12:46-50

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

---

If you educate yourself on the original words it will all be clear.

---

Seems clear enough. No pope necessary, nor a Queen.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Show me the verses where Jesus spoke of 'purgatory'.

Pope quotes don't count.

Your 'tradition' is pretty much just RC bullying, and won't work on most adults now.

---

In itony of ironies they dont even realize how many many hundreds of years after his death it was that the word Jesus even appeared.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Show me the verses where Jesus spoke of 'purgatory'.

Pope quotes don't count.

Your 'tradition' is pretty much just RC bullying, and won't work on most adults now.

---

In itony of ironies they dont even realize how many many hundreds of years after his death it was that the word Jesus even appeared.

---

Ah. You have another name you prefer us to use?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Show me the verses where Jesus spoke of 'purgatory'.

Pope quotes don't count.

Your 'tradition' is pretty much just RC bullying, and won't work on most adults now.

---

In itony of ironies they dont even realize how many many hundreds of years after his death it was that the word Jesus even appeared.

---

Ah. You have another name you prefer us to use?

---

Thats up to you as an adherent to sola scriptura as i understand it. Youre using a name that never existed in scripture. In fact it didnt likely exist until the 1600s over a 100 years after your religion formed.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Show me the verses where Jesus spoke of 'purgatory'.

Pope quotes don't count.

Your 'tradition' is pretty much just RC bullying, and won't work on most adults now.

---

In itony of ironies they dont even realize how many many hundreds of years after his death it was that the word Jesus even appeared.

---

Ah. You have another name you prefer us to use?

---

Thats up to you as an adherent to sola scriptura as i understand it. Youre using a name that never existed in scripture. In fact it didnt likely exist until the 1600s over a 100 years after your religion formed.

---

Again, what name do you prefer, and why?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Show me the verses where Jesus spoke of 'purgatory'.

Pope quotes don't count.

Your 'tradition' is pretty much just RC bullying, and won't work on most adults now.

---

In itony of ironies they dont even realize how many many hundreds of years after his death it was that the word Jesus even appeared.

---

Ah. You have another name you prefer us to use?

---

Thats up to you as an adherent to sola scriptura as i understand it. Youre using a name that never existed in scripture. In fact it didnt likely exist until the 1600s over a 100 years after your religion formed.

---

Again, what name do you prefer, and why?

---

My religion is Christianity.

You seem confused on that point, as well.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Show me the verses where Jesus spoke of 'purgatory'.

Pope quotes don't count.

Your 'tradition' is pretty much just RC bullying, and won't work on most adults now.

---

In itony of ironies they dont even realize how many many hundreds of years after his death it was that the word Jesus even appeared.

---

Ah. You have another name you prefer us to use?

---

Thats up to you as an adherent to sola scriptura as i understand it. Youre using a name that never existed in scripture. In fact it didnt likely exist until the 1600s over a 100 years after your religion formed.

---

Again, what name do you prefer, and why?

---

---

Im not a sola scriptua person. Not sue what that does to your faith. Maybe use something in scripture?

So you have no answer.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Show me the verses where Jesus spoke of 'purgatory'.

Pope quotes don't count.

Your 'tradition' is pretty much just RC bullying, and won't work on most adults now.

---

In itony of ironies they dont even realize how many many hundreds of years after his death it was that the word Jesus even appeared.

---

Ah. You have another name you prefer us to use?

---

Thats up to you as an adherent to sola scriptura as i understand it. Youre using a name that never existed in scripture. In fact it didnt likely exist until the 1600s over a 100 years after your religion formed.

---

Again, what name do you prefer, and why?

---

---

Im not a sola scriptua person. Not sue what that does to your faith. Maybe use something in scripture?

---

Considering our Lord spoke Greek, Hebrew, maybe some Latin, I sincerely doubt that you call Him by name, anyway.

You're reduced to arguing meaningless trivia just to bicker.

If you have a preferred name, please say what it is and why. Otherwise, I suspect my Lord will know me by my constant communication with Him, just as He knows you by yours.

Mothra said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

If Mary didnt give birth to Jesus, who is God, to whom did she give birth?

---

Matthew 12:46-50

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

---

John 19:26-27

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother."

We can and have been doing this for 1000 years. We will not agree.

You keep running to a man interpreted book, which there is NO scripture supporting that the version you read is the correct one. I guess Luther tradition is ok, but that is another discussion. But, regardless you think we are doomed for idiology.

From our point of view, you have fallen away from the true Church and fell for Satan's trap of believing that you as a Man can determine what is "true" and what isn't. I feel bad for you guys.

---

The irony here is you don't even accept Paul's letters as canon. Kind of ironic to accuse people of falling away from the "true Church," as you call it, when you don't even accept your true Church's teachings.

Bottom line is there is nothing in either the Protestant Bible, or the Catholic Bible, that states, much less suggests, that Mary should be honored and prayed to. You have to lie on your Church's evolving and sometimes contradictory doctrine to reach that conclusion.

---

After 1000 years you guys still dont get it. We do not agree with Sola Scriptura. A word for word reconciliation will not be there. If that is your only criteria, you will not find it. You will find Biblical passages that support Church Tradition, but not a cool book recipe from Christ.

The Bible was compiled 400 years after Christ and 1500 years have occurred after its compilation. So, how do you address everything before the Bible and everything after that is not included. There has been no revelation from God since the Apostles? And Augustine and the Church Fathers before are not to be listened to if it didn't make Jerome's and then Luther's cut?