Amen.No Quarterback said:
Back in the day, a person wanting to start their own business would attend some large denominational church in his town to build a client base and cultivate reputation of integrity.
Nowadays? I suspect you could lose business by going to a church that preaches the gospel i.e. repentance of sin and salvation by faith alone in Christ alone through the hearing of God's Word alone for the glory of God alone through scripture alone.
Think about this. Isaiah 55:11 promises us that God's Word will not return void. With this promise in mind, churches need to preach the gospel. If you were to encounter a person dying of hunger on the streets, would they respond to colorful lights on a stage, beautiful stained glass windows, a book about how to live a purpose driven life etc? No, they would want something solid that they could ingest, but sadly they often don't find that in churches.
Lastly, something that has weighed heavily on me is the so-called "sinner' prayer". One of the most destructive beliefs in the history of the Christian faith is this idea that you can pray a prayer in a moment of emotional vulnerability at some point in your life, then your ticket to heaven is punched and you can live the remainder of your life as you please. A profession of faith is not necessarily saving faith
What faith do you believe in ?Waco1947 said:Name one damn quote that I said any of this.Redbrickbear said:Waco1947 said:Christians are doing good in America, the white ones, too.Redbrickbear said:That is why I gave you example number 2Waco1947 said:Then it is a meaningless statistic. In your estimation there are simply more Christians (at least nominally) that hardly speaks of whether Christians are better than others because of their faith..Redbrickbear said:Waco1947 said:How can you possibly know that fact?KaiBear said:joseywales said:It simply amaze me that anyone believes any of the ancient religions which are sjmply superstious beliefs. the knowledge we have today of how mankind got here and the amazing discoveries of just how small we are in relation to the known universe is overwhelming evidence that mna k ow zero about a God if indeed one exists. There is no such thing in our history as a human that was perfectly made and fell from God's grace so we would need to be saved. When you dive into judiaseum and learn that life after death and resurrection pf our dead came from the Persians at the time and that Christianity basic principles came from the various beliefs of its captors ot so plainly evident religion is a manmade Invention. Then you take a look at how Christians treated others in holy wars ,destroying entire cultures with death and destruction it becomes even more evident it is man-made. I went 30 years as a church going Christian until it became evident I was being brainwashed to believe in something that does not exist.Waco1947 said:
What is love? God is love. These are the attributes of love
13 If I speak in the tongues of humans and of angels but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all my possessions and if I hand over my body so that I may boast[a] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable; it keeps no record of wrongs; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. 9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part, 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see only a reflection, as in a mirror, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 And now faith, hope, and love remain, these three, and the greatest of these is love."
This is the way of Jesus in John 8 He looked on the woman (and the Pharisees) with love. There was no "if you do this then I forgive." Love is first and foremost Jesus way with us.
It makes me sad to see so many people who brainwash their children etc to belive something that later in life of they open their minds to the truth will be shocked to find out there os no evidence for an after life a personal God and quite to the contrary, mountains of evidence that all religions are man made devices.
Eventually religion will die out completely as our knowledge presents a picture pf truth and understanding of who we are etc. Much like religion after years pf denying facts, had to admit the Erath was not the center of solar system and or the earth was not flat.
Love and live each day the best you can, cause most likely it is all you have.
I could list over a 100 examples that prove religion os man made and is culture driven, however I will leave up to you to go discover for your selves or you can believe what you want. Humans are so very superstitious by nature and co tinie to be so.
Love ''em or hate 'em……..Christians do the majority of good works in this country .
1. They are still the overwhelming majority of the populace. Saying they are doing the most good works is a objectively true as saying that Christians in the USA are paying the overwhelming majority of taxes. Its simply factual correct.
2. Look up the rates of community service and personal giving....way higher for regular church going Christians than say agnostics.
That studies have consistently shown that active regular church attending Christians are MORE generous with their time, money, and service than any other non-religious or religious group in the USA.
https://philanthropydaily.com/new-study-religious-faith-and-reading-the-bible-increases-generosity/
[A new study from the American Bible Society shows that "Practicing Christians" and "Bible Users" remain more generous than non-religious Americansand that this trend held steady through the pandemic.]
If you count the LDS as Christians (certainly they are not Muslims, Jews, or Hindus) the numbers rise again.
https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/penn-research-shows-mormons-are-generous-and-active-helping-others
p.s.
I again wonder why you are a Christian in the first place. You seem to have a never ending problem with Christians in America (especially White ones) and always doubt they are doing anything good at all compared to other religious and non-religious groups.
But you constantly doubt this....constantly criticize them over other groups in America....and never miss an opportunity to attack your fellow believers in Christ....why?
So then, Matthew 25 teaches eternal punishment?Waco1947 said:The picture described in Matthew 25 is about the last judgment and the criteria for admission into the kingdom. To our surprise, both then and now, is that the criteria of judgment is not confession of faith in Christ. Nothing is said of Grace justification or the forgiveness of sins. what counts is whether or not one has acted with loving care for needy people. Again, let me reference the Love Commandment "to love your neighbor as yourself."LIB,MR BEARS said:Waco1947 said:These are good reminders. I believe in repentance but not repentance prior to God's grace. Jesus asked faith in him.LIB,MR BEARS said:
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Luke 13:1-5
And Jesus answered them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
Luke 5:31-32
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:3
and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:46-47
"What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.' Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7
"Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.' Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Luke 15:8-10
and a few more
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 3:19
Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out.
Acts 5:31
God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 8:22
Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 20:21
Testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 26:20
But declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.
James 5:19-20
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
2 Corinthians 7:9-10
It's the Bible, not a Chinese menu. Take it all, even the egg roll.
What do you suppose is meant by separating the sheep from the goats?
The FINAL criteria for judgment is the loving care of our fellow humans.
If one chooses to be a goat then one lives a lonely, despairing existence outside the kingdom of God. Do you want to run that risk by demanding repentance or do you want to listen to Jesus?
Try again. You swung and missedOldbear83 said:At least fifteen are debatable.Waco1947 said:Oldbear83 said:That's Rhetoric, not Truth, Waco.Waco1947 said:Maybe so but the truth of his statements still standMothra said:Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.Waco1947 said:
Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.
Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:
Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.
- Jim Palmer
Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.
Depending on the context, some of those statements are demonstrably false.
And some are too insipid even for a Hallmark card.
Which ones?
See below:
"Putting certainty over wonder." Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation."Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoiever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."
That is the excuse of the narcissist.Jesus is a narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity."
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite wrd but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife."
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.
He certainly wasted a lot of time and effort on you .Waco1947 said:Try again. You swung and missedOldbear83 said:At least fifteen are debatable.Waco1947 said:Oldbear83 said:That's Rhetoric, not Truth, Waco.Waco1947 said:Maybe so but the truth of his statements still standMothra said:Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.Waco1947 said:
Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.
Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:
Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.
- Jim Palmer
Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.
Depending on the context, some of those statements are demonstrably false.
And some are too insipid even for a Hallmark card.
Which ones?
See below:
"Putting certainty over wonder." Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation."Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoiever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."
That is the excuse of the narcissist.Jesus is a narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity."
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite wrd but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife."
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.
his starting point was all wrong. He was more interested in putting down any ideas that I had thanhe was in accurately getting the context right which is the church and Jesus.KaiBear said:He certainly wasted a lot of time and effort on you .Waco1947 said:Try again. You swung and missedOldbear83 said:At least fifteen are debatable.Waco1947 said:Oldbear83 said:That's Rhetoric, not Truth, Waco.Waco1947 said:Maybe so but the truth of his statements still standMothra said:Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.Waco1947 said:
Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.
Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:
Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.
- Jim Palmer
Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.
Depending on the context, some of those statements are demonstrably false.
And some are too insipid even for a Hallmark card.
Which ones?
See below:
"Putting certainty over wonder." Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation."Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoiever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."
That is the excuse of the narcissist.Jesus is a narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity."
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite wrd but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife."
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.
You dismissed his detailed response out of hand. No real effort on your part to discuss his points .Waco1947 said:his starting point was all wrong. He was more interested in putting down any ideas that I had thanhe was in accurately getting the context right which is the church and Jesus.KaiBear said:He certainly wasted a lot of time and effort on you .Waco1947 said:Try again. You swung and missedOldbear83 said:At least fifteen are debatable.Waco1947 said:Oldbear83 said:That's Rhetoric, not Truth, Waco.Waco1947 said:Maybe so but the truth of his statements still standMothra said:Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.Waco1947 said:
Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.
Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:
Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.
- Jim Palmer
Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.
Depending on the context, some of those statements are demonstrably false.
And some are too insipid even for a Hallmark card.
Which ones?
See below:
"Putting certainty over wonder." Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation."Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoiever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."
That is the excuse of the narcissist.Jesus is a narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity."
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite wrd but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife."
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.
It is obvious you did not read my response. You did not see my analysis. I answered each one biblically and exegetically.KaiBear said:You dismissed his detailed response out of hand. No real effort on your part to discuss his points .Waco1947 said:his starting point was all wrong. He was more interested in putting down any ideas that I had thanhe was in accurately getting the context right which is the church and Jesus.KaiBear said:He certainly wasted a lot of time and effort on you .Waco1947 said:Try again. You swung and missedOldbear83 said:At least fifteen are debatable.Waco1947 said:Oldbear83 said:That's Rhetoric, not Truth, Waco.Waco1947 said:Maybe so but the truth of his statements still standMothra said:Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.Waco1947 said:
Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.
Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:
Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.
- Jim Palmer
Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.
Depending on the context, some of those statements are demonstrably false.
And some are too insipid even for a Hallmark card.
Which ones?
See below:
"Putting certainty over wonder." Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation."Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."
That is the excuse of the narcissist.Jesus is a narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity."
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite wrd but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife."
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.
Why should anyone engage in a discussion with you ?
Wrong.Waco1947 said:Try again. You swung and missedOldbear83 said:At least fifteen are debatable.Waco1947 said:Oldbear83 said:That's Rhetoric, not Truth, Waco.Waco1947 said:Maybe so but the truth of his statements still standMothra said:Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.Waco1947 said:
Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.
Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:
Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.
- Jim Palmer
Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.
Depending on the context, some of those statements are demonstrably false.
And some are too insipid even for a Hallmark card.
Which ones?
See below:
"Putting certainty over wonder." Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation."Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoiever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."
That is the excuse of the narcissist.Jesus is a narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity."
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite wrd but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife."
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.
Yet, you did not deny any of my assertions, You simply to your playbook of attack.Oldbear83 said:Wrong.Waco1947 said:Try again. You swung and missedOldbear83 said:At least fifteen are debatable.Waco1947 said:Oldbear83 said:That's Rhetoric, not Truth, Waco.Waco1947 said:Maybe so but the truth of his statements still standMothra said:Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.Waco1947 said:
Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.
Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:
Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.
- Jim Palmer
Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.
Depending on the context, some of those statements are demonstrably false.
And some are too insipid even for a Hallmark card.
Which ones?
See below:
"Putting certainty over wonder." Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation."Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoiever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."
That is the excuse of the narcissist.Jesus is a narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity."
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite wrd but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife."
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.
In the first place, my role there is more of the umpire, calling your missed pitches for what they were.
Second, your rulebook is clearly that used by Caiaphas, Pilate and Herod. They believed their own counsel rather than heed God's word.
Here's an important tip I have learned. Stop pretending your opinion = Christ's instruction. That way leads to destruction.
Better...much better.Waco1947 said:It is obvious you did not read my response. You did not see my analysis. I answered each one biblically and exegetically.KaiBear said:You dismissed his detailed response out of hand. No real effort on your part to discuss his points .Waco1947 said:his starting point was all wrong. He was more interested in putting down any ideas that I had thanhe was in accurately getting the context right which is the church and Jesus.KaiBear said:He certainly wasted a lot of time and effort on you .Waco1947 said:Try again. You swung and missedOldbear83 said:At least fifteen are debatable.Waco1947 said:Oldbear83 said:That's Rhetoric, not Truth, Waco.Waco1947 said:Maybe so but the truth of his statements still standMothra said:Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.Waco1947 said:
Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.
Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:
Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.
- Jim Palmer
Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.
Depending on the context, some of those statements are demonstrably false.
And some are too insipid even for a Hallmark card.
Which ones?
See below:
"Putting certainty over wonder." Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation."Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."
That is the excuse of the narcissist.Jesus is a narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity."
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite wrd but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife."
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.
Why should anyone engage in a discussion with you ?
Here is again -- His statements and mine in bold
"Putting certainty over wonder."
Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household Security
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation.
"Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."Jesus is a narcissist?
That is the excuse of the narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God"
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity." Again we never approach Jesus or discipleship with our holiness but with our humanity. In fact Jesus had really rough words for all those "holy pharisees"
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite word but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife." What matters is how we live our life of faith here and now. Discipleship is not earning or believing doctrine but doing the word of God.
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.So do you still condemn?
You are quite the hypocrite, Waco.Waco1947 said:Yet, you did not deny any of my assertions, You simply to your playbook of attack.Oldbear83 said:Wrong.Waco1947 said:Try again. You swung and missedOldbear83 said:At least fifteen are debatable.Waco1947 said:Oldbear83 said:That's Rhetoric, not Truth, Waco.Waco1947 said:Maybe so but the truth of his statements still standMothra said:Just FYI, the former pastor you're quoting is now an avowed Atheist.Waco1947 said:
Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.
Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:
Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.
- Jim Palmer
Just want you to know who you are quoting, and who you align yourself with - which of course speaks volumes.
Depending on the context, some of those statements are demonstrably false.
And some are too insipid even for a Hallmark card.
Which ones?
See below:
"Putting certainty over wonder." Palmer is talking about the good news of Jesus Christ not household
I need to be certain of some things, such as turning off stoves, locking doors, my daughter has her keys before she leaves her apartment to come home, etc.
"Putting teaching over conversation."Again,we are talking about the church. Of course, we teach but people own the good news by talking with someone like their teacher and class mates in Disciple groups or Sunday School.
Conversation can be enjoyable and sometimes you can learn from one, but teaching is a vital function which should not be diluted by pretending the student is equal to the teacher.
"Putting explanations over empathy." What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
"Putting answers over questions." Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
"Putting membership over friendship." Again we are talking about The Church not associations lawyers, doctors and professional associations. The goal of the church in leading people to discipleship and faith in Jesus is relationships and friendships. It is called relational evangelism.
Membership means belonging to a group, which requires demonstration that you can do whet the group does. My lawyer's membership in his firm is much more important to me when I need counsel, than whether we are buddies. Same for my doctor, who is a member of his medical association, and other professional groups.
"Putting prayer over action."Again, we are talking The Church and discipleship. See Matthew 25 "Whoiever does the will of God Mat 25:40 The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' Palmer means Affte pray then we do, we take Action.
Well, that depends on the action. A rash, knee-jerk action is a very bad idea, where prayer may well help a person choose a wiser course.
"Putting services over self-care." Churches are bad about overworking their members with the organization. After a mission in which Jesus sent the disciples He said, Mark 6: The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, "Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest."
That is the excuse of the narcissist.Jesus is a narcissist.
"Putting functionality over beauty." Again we are talking about The Church. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these.
That one is pure BS. I care much more about whether my marriage is working, than whether my wife is fashionable. I care much more about whether my crew is working well together than whether any of them would get a photo shoot from Vogue. I care a great deal more about how well my truck is running, than whether it has been washed/waxed recently.
"Putting religion over spirituality."The Holy Spirit would beg to differ with you." The HS is not a huckster. Religion can speak to mind but it does speak to the soul like the Holy Spirit.Romans 8 When we cry, "Abba![l] Father!" 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness[m] with our spirit that we are children of God
I need God in my life, not some New Age huckster.
"Putting holiness over humanity."
Absolutely wrong. Holiness is precious and life-changing. Without holiness from God, we cannot be more than brute animals. Your 'humanity' would be nothing more than a self-absorbed mob.
"Putting accountability over acceptance." When it comes to receiving people into discipleship we do not call them to accountability but we accept just as they are (grace and love) like Jesus.
Complete wrong again. Accountability is how a person accomplishes anything of value.
"Putting heaven over earth."What you do here matters than earning heaven Jesus is very clear about this idea. "The kingdom of God is here and coming, repent and believe the good news. There is y9our favorite wrd but how often does Jesus say a person "Repent before healing them, saving them, feeding them. Good Lord he fed 5,000 hungry people - did all 5,000 people repent?
Written like the humanist you are. Had to have to remind you, sir, but earth will end just as our lives will end. If we do not focus on heaven, all we have and do will be futile. You are absolutely backwards wrong on this one.
"Putting the afterlife over the herelife."
If you do not focus on the life yet to come, it's easy to slip into the selfish greed of the non-believer.
"Putting doctrine over reason." No, sound doctrine does not lead to the truth Jesus leads us truth - does I am the Truth. In my person and what I do and say is the truth about life and discipleship not doctrine.
Scripture warns us not to trust the counsel of our own opinion. Reason leads us to do what we think is right, while sound doctrine leads us to the truth.
"Putting hierarchy over equality."Well, the founders in the Declaration of Independence certainly believe all men are created ..Deuteronomy10: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. Luke 14: 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
We are not equal and never will be, nor should we hope to such a fate. One finds joy and happiness by finding out what you do well, and work to become excellent. Social Justice is a highway to Hades, sir.
.
In the first place, my role there is more of the umpire, calling your missed pitches for what they were.
Second, your rulebook is clearly that used by Caiaphas, Pilate and Herod. They believed their own counsel rather than heed God's word.
Here's an important tip I have learned. Stop pretending your opinion = Christ's instruction. That way leads to destruction.
Now, deny my assertions
Caiaphas rule book? I literally quoted the Bible.
Yes, you did assume. And if you still believe Palmer is correct, then you have ignored all my words, all the Scripture cited and quoted, and have no purpose in this thread now but to deny what you cannot dispute or defeat.Waco1947 said:
No I didn't assume. Palmer was clear about What the church gets wrong
I hope you get off your Pharisaical self righteous high and see the real struggles of people looking for faith. These are real people just the 12 and the women who followed Jesus. Watch Jesus not simply his teaching. See how He really sees people with empathic eyes not judgment.Oldbear83 said:Yes, you did assume. And if you still believe Palmer is correct, then you have ignored all my words, all the Scripture cited and quoted, and have no purpose in this thread now but to deny what you cannot dispute or defeat.Waco1947 said:
No I didn't assume. Palmer was clear about What the church gets wrong
I hope Waco, that you may yet accept the greater Reality. Jesus is not a self-help guru, He is the promised Immanuel, who embodies the Law, Grace, and our Future, as a people and individually.
Scripture speaks of Him.
You ignore Scripture, Waco,Waco1947 said:I hope you get off your Pharisaical self righteous high and see the real struggles of people looking for faith. These are real people just the 12 and the women who followed Jesus. Watch Jesus not simply his teaching. See how He really sees people with empathic eyes not judgment.Oldbear83 said:Yes, you did assume. And if you still believe Palmer is correct, then you have ignored all my words, all the Scripture cited and quoted, and have no purpose in this thread now but to deny what you cannot dispute or defeat.Waco1947 said:
No I didn't assume. Palmer was clear about What the church gets wrong
I hope Waco, that you may yet accept the greater Reality. Jesus is not a self-help guru, He is the promised Immanuel, who embodies the Law, Grace, and our Future, as a people and individually.
Scripture speaks of Him.
Waco1947 said:I hope you get off your Pharisaical self righteous high and see the real struggles of people looking for faith. These are real people just the 12 and the women who followed Jesus. Watch Jesus not simply his teaching. See how He really sees people with empathic eyes not judgment.Oldbear83 said:Yes, you did assume. And if you still believe Palmer is correct, then you have ignored all my words, all the Scripture cited and quoted, and have no purpose in this thread now but to deny what you cannot dispute or defeat.Waco1947 said:
No I didn't assume. Palmer was clear about What the church gets wrong
I hope Waco, that you may yet accept the greater Reality. Jesus is not a self-help guru, He is the promised Immanuel, who embodies the Law, Grace, and our Future, as a people and individually.
Scripture speaks of Him.
But you had just cited Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats parable, where Jesus does in fact see people with judgement. I asked you about it, and of course, as usual, you just ignored it.Waco1947 said:I hope you get off your Pharisaical self righteous high and see the real struggles of people looking for faith. These are real people just the 12 and the women who followed Jesus. Watch Jesus not simply his teaching. See how He really sees people with empathic eyes not judgment.Oldbear83 said:Yes, you did assume. And if you still believe Palmer is correct, then you have ignored all my words, all the Scripture cited and quoted, and have no purpose in this thread now but to deny what you cannot dispute or defeat.Waco1947 said:
No I didn't assume. Palmer was clear about What the church gets wrong
I hope Waco, that you may yet accept the greater Reality. Jesus is not a self-help guru, He is the promised Immanuel, who embodies the Law, Grace, and our Future, as a people and individually.
Scripture speaks of Him.
What is wrong with you? I did not deny teaching but evangelism starts with empathy and hearing the pain of the sinner before we explain any doctrine to themOldbear83 said:
3. "Putting explanations over empathy."
My response 1: If you want to solve a problem, you have to understand the cause. Empathy is great for Disney plots but useless in a lot of real-world situations.
Waco response: "What is your proof that empathy in useless in real world situations l? Empathy is needed in crisis - divorce, death, grief, suffering, racism, health concerns. Explanations are not helpful to those dealing with sin and suffering. Explanations push people away. Real disciples are empathetic like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
My response 2: Here are verses which speak to the value and importance of understanding/explanations: Exodus 31:3, Exodus 35:31, Deuteronomy 1:13, Deuteronomy 4:6, Deuteronomy 32:21, 1 Kings 4:29, 1 Kings 7:14, 1 Chronicles 22:12, 2 Chronicles 30:22, Job 8:10, Job 12:12, Job 12:13, Job 17:4, Job 20:3. Job 28:12, Job 28:20, Job 28:28, Job 32:8, Job 34:10, Job 34:16, Job 34:34, Job 36:26, Job 37:5, Job 38:36, Psalm 32:9, Psalm 49:3, Psalm 49:20, Psalm 111:10, Psalm 119:32, Psalm 119:34, Psalm 119:100, Psalm 119:104, Psalm 119:130, Psalm 119:144, Psalm 119:169, Psalm 119:169, Psalm 136:5, Psalm 147:5, Proverbs 1:2, Proverbs 1:6, Proverbs 2:2, Proverbs 2:3, Proverbs 2:6, Proverbs 2:11, Proverbs 3:5, Proverbs 3:13, Proverbs 3:19, Proverbs 3:21, Proverbs 4:1, Proverbs 4:5, Proverbs 4:7, Proverbs 8:1, Proverbs 9:10, Proverbs 10:23, Proverbs 11:12, Proverbs 14:29, Proverbs 15:21, Proverbs 15:32, Proverbs 17:27, Proverbs 18:2, Proverbs 19:8, Proverbs 24:3, Proverbs 30:2, Isaiah 5:13, Isaiah 6:9, Isaiah 10:13, Isaiah 11:2, Isaiah 27:11, Isaiah 28:19, Isaiah 29:24, Isaiah 40:14, Isaiah 40:28, Isaiah 44:19, Isaiah 56:11, Jeremiah 3:15, Jeremiah 4:22, Jeremiah 9:24, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Ezekiel 28:4, Daniel 1:17, Daniel 1:20, Daniel 5:12, Daniel 8:27, Daniel 9:22, Daniel 10:1, Daniel 10:12, Hosea 4:11, Hosea 4:14, Obadiah 1:8, Matthew 13:14, Mark 4:12, Mark 12:33, Luke 2:47, Acts 28:26, Romans 1:31, Romans 10:19, Romans 13:11, 1 Corinthians 14:15, 2 Corinthians 6:6, Ephesians 1:8, Ephesians 4:18, Philippians 4:7, Colossians 1:9, Colossians 2:2, Philemon 1:6, James 3:13, and 1 John 5:20
Also consider:
Was Solomon praised for his empathy, or for his understanding?
Did God advise Job to prize empathy, or understanding?
Consider this verse: "all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise."
Why is understanding advised, and not empathy?
In Romans 1:31, why is it said that with no understanding there is no mercy?
In Mark 4:12, why is it said that those who do not understand will not turn from sin?
Why does 1 John 5:20 say that humility comes from wisdom and understanding?
Your rejection of understanding is simple foolishness, Waco.
4. "Putting answers over questions."
My response 1: Answers are knowledge. Questions sometimes only run in circles.
Waco response: Again, we are talking about the church and our discipleship. We have questions and sometimes we need help working out the answers in conversation with another disciple.
My response 2: See my answer above regarding teaching in Temple/Church.
You quote no Scripture, Waco.Waco1947 said:
ob83 "You ignore Scripture, Waco, Good lord what is wrong with you I literally quoted scripture
You also 'paraphrase' Jesus teachings to suit your humanist agenda. I am Christian not a humanist you liar.You did not get to deny my faith. Jesus decides my faith not you.
You wanted more response from me, I gave you pages of references and you still can do no better than lie and pretend Jesus was no better than, as you claimed, "a narcissist".Good lord what is the matter with you. You claimed some stupid narcissist views and I quoted scripture that undid narcissism claim and then asked Is Jesus a narcissist? Do not misquote liar.
Thank you for one thing. Your behavior in this thread has revealed your shallow, hate-towards-God character.You damn pharisee. I know God, I have faith in God (not your God) and you sir, are not God.
I had hoped you would turn from your sin. I see now you are enamoured with it.You are a Pharisee dotting every iota and tittle about "sinners" but failing to see your loveless ways. There is nothing about any of your posts that would lead sinner out of their disconnect with God. All you have is an angry God who will smite sinners i.e. the wheat and tares or the sheep and the goats.You really want the tares and the goats to burn. No wonder people find your God repugnant. Those scriptures are literally about the nature of God's patience and steadfast love for us(Mt 13) and the literal presence of Christ in our midst in our down and out brothers and sisters. These passages are not about sinners but God's reality in our midst.
God help you, sir. God give you love, sir
Mothra said:Even if we use the word "wrong" instead of "sin," it doesn't change my response to his post. If someone doesn't understand that something is wrong (and therefore sinful), then they also need to hear about the consequences of doing wrong, and the corresponding need for grace. As I said before, I have encountered countless people who, although they would acknowledge they've broken the 10 commandments, didn't understand the consequences of it. Whether you agree with the Christian tenets or not, a bedrock of the faith is the depravity of man, and need for a savior.quash said:Mothra said:My statement that "I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion" and my use of the example addresses his point that "even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong." As my post points out, that's actually not the case. Many people don't know what they're doing is wrong (i.e. sin). Perhaps it is my use of the word sin instead of wrong that is tripping you up, but in either regard, I addressed his point, contrary to your assertions.quash said:Mothra said:Do you remember the question he addressed in the post I responded to? Let me help you: "If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness." My post addresses that point.quash said:Mothra said:quash said:Mothra said:I used to do a lot of evangelism to strangers during my college years. One of the first questions we would ask after asking the individual if they had a faith (which many purported to have) is, "If you died today, and god asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say?" I can't tell you how many people said, "Because I am a good person." If I had to guess at the percentage of people who said that, it was roughly 80%. They had no concept of their depravity, and need for grace.RMF5630 said:"If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?"quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:nobody wants to hear what they are doing is sun just as nobody wants to hear they have cancer. But, if a person doesn't know they have cancer, they will not seek a cure. If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?RMF5630 said:Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.LIB,MR BEARS said:RMF5630 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:RMF5630 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:what does the church want them to do?RMF5630 said:Redbrickbear said:The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.
— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023
It's really happening in the middle of the country.
States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.
Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a
1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money
Wonder why people are not going to Church....
You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.
In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...
We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.
Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.
No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.
They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.
Other than not giving, guilt in what?
People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?
Attendance is important, if that's the goal.
It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.
Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?
Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.
This cancer was invented just to sell their cure.
Really? I am sure even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong. You put bullets in someone, sleep with someone else's wife, lie, or steal you know that isn't OK. They don't care and telling them they should or they are going to Hell doesn't seem to have the teeth it did 400 years ago.
Those that seek forgiveness have to care that they are forgiven. Getting that message across needs to change with the times, a Priest or Pastor on a pulpit telling them they are sinners doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.
So, I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion. The message of the Gospels is, and always has been, we are sinners saved by Christ's grace. You can't have one without the other.
You disagreed with a point be didn't make. He said people know right from wrong.
I addressed very point he made. Get some reading glasses.
No. You addressed sin.
Yes. Yes you did.
But you did so in response to a later post, not to the post that posed that question.
And your post was non-responsive to the post you replied to.
Be more careful.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
It is exactly your use of sin instead of wrong that is causing me to trip. That is a qualitative change, which is why I think it is non-responsive to the post you replied to.
Let me put it a different way. I don't think you adequately addressed his point, but you did carefully make your point.
Get clear on you're first foremost understanding of the reality of God. Your God is based on your interpretation of Scripture and my God is based on my interpretation of scripture. First and foremost is that God is love and that to me is the overwhelming witness of Scripture.Oldbear83 said:You quote no Scripture, Waco.Waco1947 said:
ob83 "You ignore Scripture, Waco, Good lord what is wrong with you I literally quoted scripture
You also 'paraphrase' Jesus teachings to suit your humanist agenda. I am Christian not a humanist you liar.You did not get to deny my faith. Jesus decides my faith not you.
You wanted more response from me, I gave you pages of references and you still can do no better than lie and pretend Jesus was no better than, as you claimed, "a narcissist".Good lord what is the matter with you. You claimed some stupid narcissist views and I quoted scripture that undid narcissism claim and then asked Is Jesus a narcissist? Do not misquote liar.
Thank you for one thing. Your behavior in this thread has revealed your shallow, hate-towards-God character.You damn pharisee. I know God, I have faith in God (not your God) and you sir, are not God.
I had hoped you would turn from your sin. I see now you are enamoured with it.You are a Pharisee dotting every iota and tittle about "sinners" but failing to see your loveless ways. There is nothing about any of your posts that would lead sinner out of their disconnect with God. All you have is an angry God who will smite sinners i.e. the wheat and tares or the sheep and the goats.You really want the tares and the goats to burn. No wonder people find your God repugnant. Those scriptures are literally about the nature of God's patience and steadfast love for us(Mt 13) and the literal presence of Christ in our midst in our down and out brothers and sisters. These passages are not about sinners but God's reality in our midst.
God help you, sir. God give you love, sir
Very strange for a 'minister'.
And for all your anger, I am no Pharisee. You are simply not a Christian, as defined by Scripture.
You speak of "love" but you clearly mean license. You do nothing to turn anyone away from their own destruction, you see nothing of the harms of lust, greed, gluttony, lies, or any of the sins set out in Scripture.
Before you start another rant, consider that the God of the Old Testament, whom you hate, is the same God of the New Testament. OT Scripture is full of foretelling Christ, and God's mercy is evident throughout the Old Testament. You miss that because you hate God's Law.
The New Testament is also full of Judgment and Consequence. You ignore that Jesus was furious and drove out the Merchants in the Temple. You ignore that Jesus also cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit (an important passage, not a mistake or trivial thing). You ignore that Jesus said that it would have been better if the one who betrayed Him had never been born. You ignore Jesus' words regarding those who do not follow the Law.
As for misquoting, you did post that (in your opinion) Jesus was a Narcissist. If you now count that as false, find a mirror to make your accusations.
And you certainly like to lie about me! Unlike you, I care about the consequence of doing evil, because I see where it leads. You would supply strong drink to the alcoholic, drugs to the addict, and irreversible surgery to the sexually confused, simply because you see nothing wrong in what that does. I have never claimed to be perfect and certainly have my own sins to fight against, but I will not pretend evil is good simply because it's easier to accept it than fight it.
You are correct that I am not God. Neither are you, sir. This is precisely why I cited and quoted all that Scripture, to show what God has said on these matters,
And you have not even addressed any of them!
Yet you imagine you are speaking for God.
How do you know who or what speaks through you, if you do not test your words against Scripture, if you play at vague assumption as if Christ's teachings were spiritual Play-Doh, so 'love' means whatever suits your argument, with nothing for the human to do to improve,
Have you not noticed that Jesus always told those He healed to take action, such as 'rise and walk', or 'tell me what you see'. Jesus also always reminded people to 'go and sin no more'.
I took care to answer you with an abundance of Scripture, so that there would be no confusion, and that you would see I do not speak on these points from my own opinion.
You responded with vague claims unsupported by Scripture, and have exploded in anger when called out for your failure to defend your claims. What spirit dwells in you, that hate and anger and denial are your first choices?
Now it is true that unlike others here, I speak bluntly. But even there I follow precedent. See how Jeremiah spoke to Zedekiah, or Peter to Ananias, or Daniel to Balshazzar, or Jonah to the people of Nineveh.
Sometimes God sends stern warnings.
The good news is that you may yet turn from your sin. The question is whether you will choose to do so.
quash said:Mothra said:Even if we use the word "wrong" instead of "sin," it doesn't change my response to his post. If someone doesn't understand that something is wrong (and therefore sinful), then they also need to hear about the consequences of doing wrong, and the corresponding need for grace. As I said before, I have encountered countless people who, although they would acknowledge they've broken the 10 commandments, didn't understand the consequences of it. Whether you agree with the Christian tenets or not, a bedrock of the faith is the depravity of man, and need for a savior.quash said:Mothra said:My statement that "I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion" and my use of the example addresses his point that "even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong." As my post points out, that's actually not the case. Many people don't know what they're doing is wrong (i.e. sin). Perhaps it is my use of the word sin instead of wrong that is tripping you up, but in either regard, I addressed his point, contrary to your assertions.quash said:Mothra said:Do you remember the question he addressed in the post I responded to? Let me help you: "If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness." My post addresses that point.quash said:Mothra said:quash said:Mothra said:I used to do a lot of evangelism to strangers during my college years. One of the first questions we would ask after asking the individual if they had a faith (which many purported to have) is, "If you died today, and god asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say?" I can't tell you how many people said, "Because I am a good person." If I had to guess at the percentage of people who said that, it was roughly 80%. They had no concept of their depravity, and need for grace.RMF5630 said:"If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?"quash said:LIB,MR BEARS said:nobody wants to hear what they are doing is sun just as nobody wants to hear they have cancer. But, if a person doesn't know they have cancer, they will not seek a cure. If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?RMF5630 said:Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.LIB,MR BEARS said:RMF5630 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:RMF5630 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:what does the church want them to do?RMF5630 said:Redbrickbear said:The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.
— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023
It's really happening in the middle of the country.
States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.
Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a
1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money
Wonder why people are not going to Church....
You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.
In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...
We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.
Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.
No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.
They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.
Other than not giving, guilt in what?
People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?
Attendance is important, if that's the goal.
It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.
Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?
Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.
This cancer was invented just to sell their cure.
Really? I am sure even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong. You put bullets in someone, sleep with someone else's wife, lie, or steal you know that isn't OK. They don't care and telling them they should or they are going to Hell doesn't seem to have the teeth it did 400 years ago.
Those that seek forgiveness have to care that they are forgiven. Getting that message across needs to change with the times, a Priest or Pastor on a pulpit telling them they are sinners doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.
So, I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion. The message of the Gospels is, and always has been, we are sinners saved by Christ's grace. You can't have one without the other.
You disagreed with a point be didn't make. He said people know right from wrong.
I addressed very point he made. Get some reading glasses.
No. You addressed sin.
Yes. Yes you did.
But you did so in response to a later post, not to the post that posed that question.
And your post was non-responsive to the post you replied to.
Be more careful.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
It is exactly your use of sin instead of wrong that is causing me to trip. That is a qualitative change, which is why I think it is non-responsive to the post you replied to.
Let me put it a different way. I don't think you adequately addressed his point, but you did carefully make your point.
And outside of the Christian faith no such requirement exists.
Given the number of non-believers around you might have better luck with a harm analysis that excludes the consequences of sin and instead showed the consequences of the specific action.
TrueMothra said:Waco1947 said:I hope you get off your Pharisaical self righteous high and see the real struggles of people looking for faith. These are real people just the 12 and the women who followed Jesus. Watch Jesus not simply his teaching. See how He really sees people with empathic eyes not judgment.Oldbear83 said:Yes, you did assume. And if you still believe Palmer is correct, then you have ignored all my words, all the Scripture cited and quoted, and have no purpose in this thread now but to deny what you cannot dispute or defeat.Waco1947 said:
No I didn't assume. Palmer was clear about What the church gets wrong
I hope Waco, that you may yet accept the greater Reality. Jesus is not a self-help guru, He is the promised Immanuel, who embodies the Law, Grace, and our Future, as a people and individually.
Scripture speaks of Him.
The gospel has appealed to sinners for more than 2000 years. And for 2000 years, false teachers have attempted to rework and repackage the central tenets of the faith.
In the satanic temple in Boston, Satanists shredded a Holy Bible and ripped up a pro-police ‘Thin Blue Line’ flag during their opening ritual this weekend.
— Sarah Fields (@SarahisCensored) April 30, 2023
These lost individuals FEAR Christians. Satan fears the blood of Christ because it has the power to take everything away… pic.twitter.com/gVosTrJRy6
