Waco1947 said:

---

RMF said: The world is full of people that
1. who just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it.
2. a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.)
3. Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.)

Can you give examples of each category? Also what is your context?

---

We were discussing those that say they are Christian and will Mark it on a form but are not diligent in their practice.

Are they the snakes Jesus spoke of? Or is it those that use God and his word for personal gain and abuse others from a position of trust?

I say the later, the twice a year Christians still say they believe. They are just not as consistent?

Waco1947 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Christianity has waxed and waned in the United States since Jamestown. I think there are several reasons for the current decline:

• There always have been some group of "social" church-goers because at one time social pressure and business success benefited from church identification
• We have created myriad distractions that lure people away from church attendance, and many of us prioritize those activities over church
• Churches (in the 90s?) completely stopped doing organized evangelism as the non-Christian culture told us it was bad to evangelize
• Ironically, I think the "meet people where they are" was well intentioned but had the unintended consequence of diluting the church experience and community to being unrecognizable from other social activities

I pray for Revival, but honestly I need to work on myself as I have failed epically. Yes, you have and particularly with me . Matthew 7:`12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you,

---

---

Matthew 7

3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Honestly, I thought you do not believe in the Bible, or do you just constantly prooftext?

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

Waco1947 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Christianity has waxed and waned in the United States since Jamestown. I think there are several reasons for the current decline:

• There always have been some group of "social" church-goers because at one time social pressure and business success benefited from church identification
• We have created myriad distractions that lure people away from church attendance, and many of us prioritize those activities over church
• Churches (in the 90s?) completely stopped doing organized evangelism as the non-Christian culture told us it was bad to evangelize
• Ironically, I think the "meet people where they are" was well intentioned but had the unintended consequence of diluting the church experience and community to being unrecognizable from other social activities

I pray for Revival, but honestly I need to work on myself as I have failed epically. Yes, you have and particularly with me . Matthew 7:`12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you,

---

---

3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

joseywales said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Share your comments.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/the-collapse-of-faith-in-america/

(ps i posted before I read all of it.)

---

Science has closed the gap between ignorance and superstition quite allot in the past 2000 years. Enough for me to realize my 30 years of being a Christian was having blinders on to the factual knowledge that makes it clear that all religions are cultural and man-made. The perfect human without sin has never existed as we now know through DNA and fossil studies. We know we are primates with an advanced brain that has evolved over millions of years.
So no need to be saved from a fall of grace. Almost all of us have Neanderthal and one other human ancestor in us and that is just recent history.
I have no idea if there is a creator or not of this amazing universe that has hundreds of billions galaxies. Too much for a human brain to comprehend. I am 100 percent sure that all religions and faiths have nothing to do with a supernatural God, just man-made from days of old when that's how things unexplained needed an explanation. because pf a lack pf understanding and knowledge.
And that is just one of the over 50 reasons why I changed paths and live each day being the best I can be to everyone and cherish every moment I have here on this earth.
I understand the need for humans to have religion and faith, it is a comfort and from our earthly perspective an eternal life.is quite the treat. Most likely that's not happening or if it does you will be there with every living organism that has ever existed on this planet not to count all the other planets that surely have life on them.
I respect people's beliefs and understand why it is so important and I keep out of their faith business so to speak, unless they try to deny actual facts to defend their belief system.
Examples below.

I had a conversation with a person recently who believes the earth is flat, and after showing him an exact example and proof that it wasn't, he refused to see the facts. Thats when the conversation ended

I had a conversation with a friend who said her friend had a near dear experince amd saw angels lught etc etc. I told her that people have had the same experience when they fainted. I told her that science can actually induce a near death experience and explained the experiments that had been done..she refused to believe the facts and the conversation ended.



In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."

---

Science has yet to explain near death experiences. I actually researched the topic quite a bit a number of years ago for a paper. It was incredible some of the things that were unexplainable. I recall one story in particular of a person who flat-lined in a hospital, and recalled rising up out of his body and out of the hospital building. He described a sticker on the top of a fan blade, only for the nurse to check and confirm it was there.

I've read some about fainting experiences and their comparison to near death experiences. The research I' reviewed showed marked distinctions. But perhaps you are aware of something I am not.

Belief is a choice, no question. But atheism has too many gaps for me to be comfortable with it, even if I did not have a Christian background. We've yet to find any evidence whatsoever that inanimate matter turned to amino acids, which turned to primitive life with turned to complex organisms. If anything, science would say the such an idea is impossible and patently absurd. We've also yet to find the missing link in our evolutionary chain. So there are LOTS and LOTS of unanswered questions.

I don't adhere to Christianity merely because it makes me comfortable. I simply know the man I was before I had an encounter with Christ, and I know how that man had a night and day change almost instantaneously. It was miraculous. No other way to describe it.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

joseywales said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Share your comments.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/the-collapse-of-faith-in-america/

(ps i posted before I read all of it.)

---

Science has closed the gap between ignorance and superstition quite allot in the past 2000 years. Enough for me to realize my 30 years of being a Christian was having blinders on to the factual knowledge that makes it clear that all religions are cultural and man-made. The perfect human without sin has never existed as we now know through DNA and fossil studies. We know we are primates with an advanced brain that has evolved over millions of years.
So no need to be saved from a fall of grace. Almost all of us have Neanderthal and one other human ancestor in us and that is just recent history.
I have no idea if there is a creator or not of this amazing universe that has hundreds of billions galaxies. Too much for a human brain to comprehend. I am 100 percent sure that all religions and faiths have nothing to do with a supernatural God, just man-made from days of old when that's how things unexplained needed an explanation. because pf a lack pf understanding and knowledge.
And that is just one of the over 50 reasons why I changed paths and live each day being the best I can be to everyone and cherish every moment I have here on this earth.
I understand the need for humans to have religion and faith, it is a comfort and from our earthly perspective an eternal life.is quite the treat. Most likely that's not happening or if it does you will be there with every living organism that has ever existed on this planet not to count all the other planets that surely have life on them.
I respect people's beliefs and understand why it is so important and I keep out of their faith business so to speak, unless they try to deny actual facts to defend their belief system.
Examples below.

I had a conversation with a person recently who believes the earth is flat, and after showing him an exact example and proof that it wasn't, he refused to see the facts. Thats when the conversation ended

I had a conversation with a friend who said her friend had a near dear experince amd saw angels lught etc etc. I told her that people have had the same experience when they fainted. I told her that science can actually induce a near death experience and explained the experiments that had been done..she refused to believe the facts and the conversation ended.



In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."

---

Thoughtful. Thank you.

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Christianity has waxed and waned in the United States since Jamestown. I think there are several reasons for the current decline:

• There always have been some group of "social" church-goers because at one time social pressure and business success benefited from church identification
• We have created myriad distractions that lure people away from church attendance, and many of us prioritize those activities over church
• Churches (in the 90s?) completely stopped doing organized evangelism as the non-Christian culture told us it was bad to evangelize
• Ironically, I think the "meet people where they are" was well intentioned but had the unintended consequence of diluting the church experience and community to being unrecognizable from other social activities

I pray for Revival, but honestly I need to work on myself as I have failed epically. Yes, you have and particularly with me . Matthew 7:`12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you,

---

---

3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

---

I follow the golden rule on this bulletin board. I consistently conscious of my writing and its affect on people; therefore, I do not demean you personally. I do argue vehemently for my ideas and will declare ideas silly not people who wrote them - that is called ad hominem attacks for which you are guilty. If I have offended you or demeaned you please accept my apologies.

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Christianity has waxed and waned in the United States since Jamestown. I think there are several reasons for the current decline:

• There always have been some group of "social" church-goers because at one time social pressure and business success benefited from church identification
• We have created myriad distractions that lure people away from church attendance, and many of us prioritize those activities over church
• Churches (in the 90s?) completely stopped doing organized evangelism as the non-Christian culture told us it was bad to evangelize
• Ironically, I think the "meet people where they are" was well intentioned but had the unintended consequence of diluting the church experience and community to being unrecognizable from other social activities

I pray for Revival, but honestly I need to work on myself as I have failed epically. Yes, you have and particularly with me . Matthew 7:`12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you,

---

---

3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

---

I follow the golden rule on this bulletin board. I consistently conscious of my writing and its affect on people; therefore, I do not demean you personally. I do argue vehemently for my ideas and will declare ideas silly not people who wrote them - that is called ad hominem attacks for which you are guilty. If I have offended you or demeaned you please accept my apologies.

---

You are just as guilty of that of which you accuse others. You regularly engage in negative stereotypes and belittle those who adhere to traditional Christian beliefs and scripture. And you are intellectually dishonest and run and hide as soon as your own illogical beliefs are challenged.

No need to apologize. If that's the way you want to behave, that is fine. Just don't fool yourself into believing you are better than those you accuse of attacking you. You behavior is no better than theirs. So, you can dispense with the martyr complex. Nobody is buying it.

Waco1947 said:

---

joseywales said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Share your comments.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/the-collapse-of-faith-in-america/

(ps i posted before I read all of it.)

---

Science has closed the gap between ignorance and superstition quite allot in the past 2000 years. Enough for me to realize my 30 years of being a Christian was having blinders on to the factual knowledge that makes it clear that all religions are cultural and man-made. The perfect human without sin has never existed as we now know through DNA and fossil studies. We know we are primates with an advanced brain that has evolved over millions of years.
So no need to be saved from a fall of grace. Almost all of us have Neanderthal and one other human ancestor in us and that is just recent history.
I have no idea if there is a creator or not of this amazing universe that has hundreds of billions galaxies. Too much for a human brain to comprehend. I am 100 percent sure that all religions and faiths have nothing to do with a supernatural God, just man-made from days of old when that's how things unexplained needed an explanation. because pf a lack pf understanding and knowledge.
And that is just one of the over 50 reasons why I changed paths and live each day being the best I can be to everyone and cherish every moment I have here on this earth.
I understand the need for humans to have religion and faith, it is a comfort and from our earthly perspective an eternal life.is quite the treat. Most likely that's not happening or if it does you will be there with every living organism that has ever existed on this planet not to count all the other planets that surely have life on them.
I respect people's beliefs and understand why it is so important and I keep out of their faith business so to speak, unless they try to deny actual facts to defend their belief system.
Examples below.

I had a conversation with a person recently who believes the earth is flat, and after showing him an exact example and proof that it wasn't, he refused to see the facts. Thats when the conversation ended

I had a conversation with a friend who said her friend had a near dear experince amd saw angels lught etc etc. I told her that people have had the same experience when they fainted. I told her that science can actually induce a near death experience and explained the experiments that had been done..she refused to believe the facts and the conversation ended.



In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."

---

Thoughtful. Thank you.

---

What would you say to him to win him over to the kingdom?

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

No I do not loathe evangelicals or fundamentalist and have made that clear.
From the fundamentalists I learned reverence for scripture and the importance listening to word of God in the scriptures as the scripture is read or preached.
From the Evangelicals I learned exuberance for the sung and preached word of God. I learned from them to visit and help those people to see faith at work in their lives. I learned not be boring when I preached.
I attack the underlying theology of evangelicals and fundamentalists. I don't believe in their dependence on a supernatural god or their literalism, but I hold sacred what I learned and experienced from them. I continue engage in thoughtful conversations with them free of attacks. Mothra you are smart but demeaning attacks of heresy are not thoughtful or helpful.

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Christianity has waxed and waned in the United States since Jamestown. I think there are several reasons for the current decline:

• There always have been some group of "social" church-goers because at one time social pressure and business success benefited from church identification
• We have created myriad distractions that lure people away from church attendance, and many of us prioritize those activities over church
• Churches (in the 90s?) completely stopped doing organized evangelism as the non-Christian culture told us it was bad to evangelize
• Ironically, I think the "meet people where they are" was well intentioned but had the unintended consequence of diluting the church experience and community to being unrecognizable from other social activities

I pray for Revival, but honestly I need to work on myself as I have failed epically. Yes, you have and particularly with me . Matthew 7:`12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you,

---

---

3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

---

I follow the golden rule on this bulletin board. I consistently conscious of my writing and its affect on people; therefore, I do not demean you personally. I do argue vehemently for my ideas and will declare ideas silly not people who wrote them - that is called ad hominem attacks for which you are guilty. If I have offended you or demeaned you please accept my apologies.

---

You are just as guilty of that of which you accuse others. You regularly engage in negative stereotypes and belittle those who adhere to traditional Christian beliefs and scripture. And you are intellectually dishonest and run and hide as soon as your own illogical beliefs are challenged.

No need to apologize. If that's the way you want to behave, that is fine. Just don't fool yourself into believing you are better than those you accuse of attacking you. You behavior is no better than theirs. So, you can dispense with the martyr complex. Nobody is buying it.

---

There is a consistent thread of lack of awareness among most leftist fundamentalists. It's so shocking that I wonder if they actually are gaslighting or truly ignorant. I think for some their fundamentalist crusade gives them a sense that whatever done in service of the crusade is acceptable and righteous how National Socialists could justify the Holocaust or Stalinists could justify killing tends of millions for the cause.

Waco1947 said:

---

joseywales said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Share your comments.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/the-collapse-of-faith-in-america/

(ps i posted before I read all of it.)

---

Science has closed the gap between ignorance and superstition quite allot in the past 2000 years. Enough for me to realize my 30 years of being a Christian was having blinders on to the factual knowledge that makes it clear that all religions are cultural and man-made. The perfect human without sin has never existed as we now know through DNA and fossil studies. We know we are primates with an advanced brain that has evolved over millions of years.
So no need to be saved from a fall of grace. Almost all of us have Neanderthal and one other human ancestor in us and that is just recent history.
I have no idea if there is a creator or not of this amazing universe that has hundreds of billions galaxies. Too much for a human brain to comprehend. I am 100 percent sure that all religions and faiths have nothing to do with a supernatural God, just man-made from days of old when that's how things unexplained needed an explanation. because pf a lack pf understanding and knowledge.
And that is just one of the over 50 reasons why I changed paths and live each day being the best I can be to everyone and cherish every moment I have here on this earth.
I understand the need for humans to have religion and faith, it is a comfort and from our earthly perspective an eternal life.is quite the treat. Most likely that's not happening or if it does you will be there with every living organism that has ever existed on this planet not to count all the other planets that surely have life on them.
I respect people's beliefs and understand why it is so important and I keep out of their faith business so to speak, unless they try to deny actual facts to defend their belief system.
Examples below.

I had a conversation with a person recently who believes the earth is flat, and after showing him an exact example and proof that it wasn't, he refused to see the facts. Thats when the conversation ended

I had a conversation with a friend who said her friend had a near dear experince amd saw angels lught etc etc. I told her that people have had the same experience when they fainted. I told her that science can actually induce a near death experience and explained the experiments that had been done..she refused to believe the facts and the conversation ended.



In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."

---

Thoughtful. Thank you.

---

Lol. Virtually EVERY comment that is wrong and against God you agree with or praise. You truly are a man of darkness.

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

No I do not loathe evangelicals or fundamentalist and have made that clear.
From the fundamentalists I learned reverence for scripture and the importance listening to word of God in the scriptures as the scripture is read or preached.
From the Evangelicals I learned exuberance for the sung and preached word of God. I learned from them to visit and help those people to see faith at work in their lives. I learned not be boring when I preached.
I attack the underlying theology of evangelicals and fundamentalists. I don't believe in their dependence on a supernatural god or their literalism, but I hold sacred what I learned and experienced from them. I continue engage in thoughtful conversations with them free of attacks. Mothra you are smart but demeaning attacks of heresy are not thoughtful or helpful.

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents here.

joseywales said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Share your comments.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/the-collapse-of-faith-in-america/

(ps i posted before I read all of it.)

---

Science has closed the gap between ignorance and superstition quite allot in the past 2000 years. Enough for me to realize my 30 years of being a Christian was having blinders on to the factual knowledge that makes it clear that all religions are cultural and man-made. The perfect human without sin has never existed as we now know through DNA and fossil studies. We know we are primates with an advanced brain that has evolved over millions of years.

---

This is as about as ridiculous and ignorant as anything I've ever read. DNA or fossil studies can't tell you whether the first man and woman were without sin or not.

There's science, and then there's absurd conclusions some grasp for from that science in order to rationalize their beliefs.

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

I thought I included all sides from non-believers to evangelicals. All can be snakes. My loathing is not limited, I am open minded in my loathing. It is close mined people that I can't stand!

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

I thought I included all sides from non-believers to evangelicals. All can be snakes. My loathing is not limited, I am open minded in my loathing. It is close mined people that I can't stand!

---

That message was directed to Waco47.

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

I thought I included all sides from non-believers to evangelicals. All can be snakes. My loathing is not limited, I am open minded in my loathing. It is close mined people that I can't stand!

---

That message was directed to Waco47.

---

Thanks, got it. You know me, I am an equal opportunity loather... : )

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we hafve those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

Christ didn't yell and scream at the rich young ruler. He told him what he needed to do and then let him decide.

The people Christ really got onto (snakes) were the hypocrites.

---

Let's define hypocrite. Is the person that identifies Christian and goes to Church on Christmas and Easter what he was talking about? Or the Pastor that guilts the widow out of her grocery money so he can live in a mansion? Or the Pastor committing adultry with someone that came for counseling? Or the pedifile Prest?

I belief the last three are the snakes.

---

Not defining hypocrisy broadly, but my exegesis is that Jesus in the passages about the "snakes" were specifically describing the powerful in the Faith that use the Temple / Church to abuse members of the body ... I do no believe he was talking about average believers but leadership.

---

He gave four examples in his questions, three of which dealt with church leaders. His point stands.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

No I do not loathe evangelicals or fundamentalist and have made that clear.
From the fundamentalists I learned reverence for scripture and the importance listening to word of God in the scriptures as the scripture is read or preached.
From the Evangelicals I learned exuberance for the sung and preached word of God. I learned from them to visit and help those people to see faith at work in their lives. I learned not be boring when I preached.
I attack the underlying theology of evangelicals and fundamentalists. I don't believe in their dependence on a supernatural god or their literalism, but I hold sacred what I learned and experienced from them. I continue engage in thoughtful conversations with them free of attacks. Mothra you are smart but demeaning attacks of heresy are not thoughtful or helpful.

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents her

---

Thank you I try to be civil.
A heretical charge is a meaningless charge. By what authority does level the charge against me. It is sloppy thinking. I do stand outside orthodox beliefs but not heretical. I stand within a tradition at 150 years old. Superstition is dying and the schools I advocate want to see the survival of faith (not dogma.)

Waco1947 said:

---

As always with evangelicals it's the people's own fault. It is clearly stated here in the last paragraphs.
" Just as He has done throughout the past two thousand years, Jesus is still showing people that He is alive.

Sadly, many Americans simply do not care.

Our nation is choosing to reject faith like never before, and right now there are no indications that this is going to turn around any time soon.."
1. "Americans simply do not care" so it's Americans fault because apparently they are blind
2. " Our nation is choosing to reject faith like never before"
Apparently America is at fault for rejecting faith and NOT how the evangelicals' share the good news of Christ.
If Jesus is alive then it's not Jesus fault that people reject His good news but just maybe that evangelicals are so literal, arrogant, and so narrow about the faith and so far removed from sharing His grace.

---

In all fairness, the religions have not done a lot to change with the times either. It has been either you accept or go to hell... Well, to people that don't necessarily believe there is a hell, not an enticing message.

This is not the first time in history that religion will have to re-invent itself and find new ways to get the message out. About the time of the Reformation most Catholics believed that Protestants were heretics. I know you all find that hard to believe, because you think Luther, Wesley, Calvin were right, but that was not the prevailing wisdom when it happened. That Lutheranism was more about German Nobility keeping their money in Germany, I am sure many talked about the Catholic Church losing members.

In the 50's, the Catholic Church introduced Vatican 2. What will be next? It will not be the status quo, it never is.

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

No I do not loathe evangelicals or fundamentalist and have made that clear.
From the fundamentalists I learned reverence for scripture and the importance listening to word of God in the scriptures as the scripture is read or preached.
From the Evangelicals I learned exuberance for the sung and preached word of God. I learned from them to visit and help those people to see faith at work in their lives. I learned not be boring when I preached.
I attack the underlying theology of evangelicals and fundamentalists. I don't believe in their dependence on a supernatural god or their literalism, but I hold sacred what I learned and experienced from them. I continue engage in thoughtful conversations with them free of attacks. Mothra you are smart but demeaning attacks of heresy are not thoughtful or helpful.

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents her

---

Thank you I try to be civil.
A heretical charge is a meaningless charge. By what authority does level the charge against me. It is sloppy thinking. I do stand outside orthodox beliefs but not heretical. I stand within a tradition at 150 years old. Superstition is dying and the schools I advocate want to see the survival of faith (not dogma.)

---

One can level heresy against you by the objective text in the Bible. The problem is that the Bible holds no authority for you. So, it would be like someone calling me a poor follower of Muhammad or Buddha. It just wouldn't bother you because you don't recognize the authority of Christian Scripture.

He Hate Me said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

No I do not loathe evangelicals or fundamentalist and have made that clear.
From the fundamentalists I learned reverence for scripture and the importance listening to word of God in the scriptures as the scripture is read or preached.
From the Evangelicals I learned exuberance for the sung and preached word of God. I learned from them to visit and help those people to see faith at work in their lives. I learned not be boring when I preached.
I attack the underlying theology of evangelicals and fundamentalists. I don't believe in their dependence on a supernatural god or their literalism, but I hold sacred what I learned and experienced from them. I continue engage in thoughtful conversations with them free of attacks. Mothra you are smart but demeaning attacks of heresy are not thoughtful or helpful.

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents her

---

Thank you I try to be civil.
A heretical charge is a meaningless charge. By what authority does level the charge against me. It is sloppy thinking. I do stand outside orthodox beliefs but not heretical. I stand within a tradition at 150 years old. Superstition is dying and the schools I advocate want to see the survival of faith (not dogma.)

---

One can level heresy against you by the objective text in the Bible. The problem is that the Bible holds no authority for you. So, it would be like someone calling me a poor follower of Muhammad or Buddha. It just wouldn't bother you because you don't recognize the authority of Christian Scripture.

---

And that encapsulates the problem. Those that we are trying to convince, don't trust or respect the sources we use and rely.

RMF5630 said:

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He Hate Me said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

No I do not loathe evangelicals or fundamentalist and have made that clear.
From the fundamentalists I learned reverence for scripture and the importance listening to word of God in the scriptures as the scripture is read or preached.
From the Evangelicals I learned exuberance for the sung and preached word of God. I learned from them to visit and help those people to see faith at work in their lives. I learned not be boring when I preached.
I attack the underlying theology of evangelicals and fundamentalists. I don't believe in their dependence on a supernatural god or their literalism, but I hold sacred what I learned and experienced from them. I continue engage in thoughtful conversations with them free of attacks. Mothra you are smart but demeaning attacks of heresy are not thoughtful or helpful.

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents her

---

Thank you I try to be civil.
A heretical charge is a meaningless charge. By what authority does level the charge against me. It is sloppy thinking. I do stand outside orthodox beliefs but not heretical. I stand within a tradition at 150 years old. Superstition is dying and the schools I advocate want to see the survival of faith (not dogma.)

---

One can level heresy against you by the objective text in the Bible. The problem is that the Bible holds no authority for you. So, it would be like someone calling me a poor follower of Muhammad or Buddha. It just wouldn't bother you because you don't recognize the authority of Christian Scripture.

---

And that encapsulates the problem. Those that we are trying to convince, don't trust or respect the sources we use and rely.

---

He is a preacher. Agreeing on the authority of the Bible should not be an issue.

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents her

---

Thank you I try to be civil.
A heretical charge is a meaningless charge. By what authority does level the charge against me. It is sloppy thinking. I do stand outside orthodox beliefs but not heretical. I stand within a tradition at 150 years old. Superstition is dying and the schools I advocate want to see the survival of faith (not dogma.)

---

The point isn't whether you think you are a heretic. The point is that heresy is the standard charge lobbed when you disagree on theology. Argue the theology, not the label. It's trollbait, ignore it.

quash said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents her

---

Thank you I try to be civil.
A heretical charge is a meaningless charge. By what authority does level the charge against me. It is sloppy thinking. I do stand outside orthodox beliefs but not heretical. I stand within a tradition at 150 years old. Superstition is dying and the schools I advocate want to see the survival of faith (not dogma.)

---

The point isn't whether you think you are a heretic. The point is that heresy is the standard charge lobbed when you disagree on theology. Argue the theology, not the label. It's trollbait, ignore it.

---

or, self-examine after the charge first and then, argue the theology.

"The creation of man whom God in His foreknowledge knew doomed to sin was the awful index of God's omnipotence. For it would have been a thing of trifling and contemptible ease for Perfection to create mere perfection. To do so would, to speak truth, be not creation but extension. Separateness is identity and the only way for God to create, truly create, man was to make him separate from God Himself, and to be separate from God is to be sinful. The creation of evil is therefore the index of God's glory and His power. That had to be so that the creation of good might be the index of man's glory and power. But by God's help. By His help and in His wisdom."
Robt Penn Warren

He Hate Me said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

No I do not loathe evangelicals or fundamentalist and have made that clear.
From the fundamentalists I learned reverence for scripture and the importance listening to word of God in the scriptures as the scripture is read or preached.
From the Evangelicals I learned exuberance for the sung and preached word of God. I learned from them to visit and help those people to see faith at work in their lives. I learned not be boring when I preached.
I attack the underlying theology of evangelicals and fundamentalists. I don't believe in their dependence on a supernatural god or their literalism, but I hold sacred what I learned and experienced from them. I continue engage in thoughtful conversations with them free of attacks. Mothra you are smart but demeaning attacks of heresy are not thoughtful or helpful.

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents her

---

Thank you I try to be civil.
A heretical charge is a meaningless charge. By what authority does level the charge against me. It is sloppy thinking. I do stand outside orthodox beliefs but not heretical. I stand within a tradition at 150 years old. Superstition is dying and the schools I advocate want to see the survival of faith (not dogma.)

---

One can level heresy against you by the objective text in the Bible. The problem is that the Bible holds no authority for you. So, it would be like someone calling me a poor follower of Muhammad or Buddha. It just wouldn't bother you because you don't recognize the authority of Christian Scripture.

---

And that encapsulates the problem. Those that we are trying to convince, don't trust or respect the sources we use and rely.

---

He is a preacher. Agreeing on the authority of the Bible should not be an issue.

---

Which Bible? The Vulgate or the King James? Does the various Church histories and non-biblical texts count? It is never as easy as that!!

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

No I do not loathe evangelicals or fundamentalist and have made that clear.
From the fundamentalists I learned reverence for scripture and the importance listening to word of God in the scriptures as the scripture is read or preached.
From the Evangelicals I learned exuberance for the sung and preached word of God. I learned from them to visit and help those people to see faith at work in their lives. I learned not be boring when I preached.
I attack the underlying theology of evangelicals and fundamentalists. I don't believe in their dependence on a supernatural god or their literalism, but I hold sacred what I learned and experienced from them. I continue engage in thoughtful conversations with them free of attacks. Mothra you are smart but demeaning attacks of heresy are not thoughtful or helpful.

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents her

---

Thank you I try to be civil.
A heretical charge is a meaningless charge. By what authority does level the charge against me. It is sloppy thinking. I do stand outside orthodox beliefs but not heretical. I stand within a tradition at 150 years old. Superstition is dying and the schools I advocate want to see the survival of faith (not dogma.)

---

Faith in what?

---

A very good question.

RMF5630 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

He Hate Me said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

---

You never pass up an opportunity to attack those evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, do you?

Very Christ-like of you.

---

No I do not loathe evangelicals or fundamentalist and have made that clear.
From the fundamentalists I learned reverence for scripture and the importance listening to word of God in the scriptures as the scripture is read or preached.
From the Evangelicals I learned exuberance for the sung and preached word of God. I learned from them to visit and help those people to see faith at work in their lives. I learned not be boring when I preached.
I attack the underlying theology of evangelicals and fundamentalists. I don't believe in their dependence on a supernatural god or their literalism, but I hold sacred what I learned and experienced from them. I continue engage in thoughtful conversations with them free of attacks. Mothra you are smart but demeaning attacks of heresy are not thoughtful or helpful.

---

Calling you a heretic isn't demeaning or attacking. It simply means you don't hold orthodox beliefs. I do give you credit for being more civil than most of your opponents her

---

Thank you I try to be civil.
A heretical charge is a meaningless charge. By what authority does level the charge against me. It is sloppy thinking. I do stand outside orthodox beliefs but not heretical. I stand within a tradition at 150 years old. Superstition is dying and the schools I advocate want to see the survival of faith (not dogma.)

---

One can level heresy against you by the objective text in the Bible. The problem is that the Bible holds no authority for you. So, it would be like someone calling me a poor follower of Muhammad or Buddha. It just wouldn't bother you because you don't recognize the authority of Christian Scripture.

---

And that encapsulates the problem. Those that we are trying to convince, don't trust or respect the sources we use and rely.

---

He is a preacher. Agreeing on the authority of the Bible should not be an issue.

---

Which Bible? The Vulgate or the King James? Does the various Church histories and non-biblical texts count? It is never as easy as that!!

---

It is hard if you want to make it hard. Otherwise, it is pretty simple. Do you want salvation in its simplicity? Or do you just want to argue about why you are right and God is wrong?

Who is to say he is wrong? There is a reason there are so many branches of one religion. There are many disagreements between believers with each denomination saying "my way is the right way just as God said it." If there was only one way to interpret the scriptures then I'd be attending the same church as all my friends. Some go to mass, some move to the spirit during rock concerts with arms in the air, and others sing old hymns to an organ with old ladies in white robes playing hand bells as their grandmother sings opera style, and maybe a couple partake in Gregorian chant… the hand bells and operatic performance are quite the memories

boykin_spaniel said:

---

Who is to say he is wrong? There is a reason there are so many branches of one religion. There are many disagreements between believers with each denomination saying "my way is the right way just as God said it." If there was only one way to interpret the scriptures then I'd be attending the same church as all my friends. Some go to mass, some move to the spirit during rock concerts with arms in the air, and others sing old hymns to an organ with old ladies in white robes playing hand bells as their grandmother sings opera style, and maybe a couple partake in Gregorian chant… the hand bells and operatic performance are quite the memories

---

That post seems to imply that believers have strong differences. I believe most Methodists would consider Southern Baptists brothers and sisters in Christ, and the same for Roman Catholics, Episcopalians and most of the denominations.

There are some outright heretics, but those make themselves known by denying the Gospel and the essentials of the faith. But even there I do not see Christians seeking violent punishment for someone with different beliefs.

boykin_spaniel said:

---

Who is to say he is wrong?

---

The objective, written word in Scripture. Agreement with each other is not nearly as important as agreement with Scripture.