Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

---

that would be great. Where would you find something like that?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

---

that would be great. Where would you find something like that?

---

Probably have to stay at a Motel 6 to find one.

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

---

that would be great. Where would you find something like that?

---

Probably have to stay at a Motel 6 to find one.

---

Nope. Waffle House.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

---

that would be great. Where would you find something like that?

---

Probably have to stay at a Motel 6 to find one.

---

Nope. Waffle House.

---

I was thinking of Gideons Bible but I've never been in a Waffle House bathroom so am I missing something?

You can’t have Western civilization without Christianity. The real stuff not this watered down B-grade self help version commonly circulating.

That is not my opinion, it is an empirical fact.

pic.twitter.com/9uxJkJcF6r

— Cernovich (@Cernovich) April 8, 2023

Mothra said:

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quash said:

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Mothra said:

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quash said:

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Mothra said:

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RMF5630 said:

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quash said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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RMF5630 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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RMF5630 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

nobody wants to hear what they are doing is sun just as nobody wants to hear they have cancer. But, if a person doesn't know they have cancer, they will not seek a cure. If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?

---

This cancer was invented just to sell their cure.

---

"If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?"

Really? I am sure even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong. You put bullets in someone, sleep with someone else's wife, lie, or steal you know that isn't OK. They don't care and telling them they should or they are going to Hell doesn't seem to have the teeth it did 400 years ago.

Those that seek forgiveness have to care that they are forgiven. Getting that message across needs to change with the times, a Priest or Pastor on a pulpit telling them they are sinners doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.

---

I used to do a lot of evangelism to strangers during my college years. One of the first questions we would ask after asking the individual if they had a faith (which many purported to have) is, "If you died today, and god asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say?" I can't tell you how many people said, "Because I am a good person." If I had to guess at the percentage of people who said that, it was roughly 80%. They had no concept of their depravity, and need for grace.

So, I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion. The message of the Gospels is, and always has been, we are sinners saved by Christ's grace. You can't have one without the other.

---

You disagreed with a point be didn't make. He said people know right from wrong.

---

I addressed very point he made. Get some reading glasses.

---

No. You addressed sin.

---

Do you remember the question he addressed in the post I responded to? Let me help you: "If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness." My post addresses that point.

---

Yes. Yes you did.

But you did so in response to a later post, not to the post that posed that question.

And your post was non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Be more careful.

Wangchung said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

---

that would be great. Where would you find something like that?

---

Probably have to stay at a Motel 6 to find one.

---

Nope. Waffle House.

---

I was thinking of Gideons Bible but I've never been in a Waffle House bathroom so am I missing something?

---

"Timeless wisdom" may be found in more than a book.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

---

that would be great. Where would you find something like that?

---

Probably have to stay at a Motel 6 to find one.

---

Nope. Waffle House.

---

I was thinking of Gideons Bible but I've never been in a Waffle House bathroom so am I missing something?

---

"Timeless wisdom" may be found in more than a book.

---

"Don't try to stop those tra. nnies from brawling, dude, just eat." was the best timeless wisdom I ever had imparted to me at Waffle House.

Wangchung said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

---

that would be great. Where would you find something like that?

---

Probably have to stay at a Motel 6 to find one.

---

Nope. Waffle House.

---

I was thinking of Gideons Bible but I've never been in a Waffle House bathroom so am I missing something?

---

"Timeless wisdom" may be found in more than a book.

---

"Don't try to stop those tra. nnies from brawling, dude, just eat." was the best timeless wisdom I ever had imparted to me at Waffle House.

---

this is what happens when you allow ruttie-tutti, fresh and fruity to go on, unchecked.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

---

that would be great. Where would you find something like that?

---

Probably have to stay at a Motel 6 to find one.

---

Nope. Waffle House.

---

I was thinking of Gideons Bible but I've never been in a Waffle House bathroom so am I missing something?

---

"Timeless wisdom" may be found in more than a book.

---

"Don't try to stop those tra. nnies from brawling, dude, just eat." was the best timeless wisdom I ever had imparted to me at Waffle House.

---

this is what happens when you allow ruttie-tutti, fresh and fruity to go on, unchecked.

---

Friends don't let friends iHop.

Wangchung said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Wangchung said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Interesting that while the collapse of Christianity (and reform Judaism) in the West is on going...it does not seem to be the same trend in Africa and parts of Latin America and Asia.

[In his book "The Unexpected Christian Century," Scott Sunquist notes that in 1900, about 80 percent of the world's Christian population lived in the Western world and about 20 percent in the majority world. By 2000, only 37 percent lived in the Western world, and nearly two-thirds lived in the majority world. Sub-Saharan Africa had the most striking growth of Christianity, growing from around 9 percent Christian at the beginning of the 20th century to almost 45 percent at the end of it. There are around 685 million Christians in Africa now.


"Christianity at the beginning of the 21st century," said George, "is the most global and most diverse and the most dispersed faith."

In Africa, Latin America and Asia, Christianity is growing in historic denominations, such as Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, but the most explosive growth has been in Indigenous, independent Pentecostal churches. Sunquist argues that in addition to Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches, we ought to start talking about a new family of "spiritual" churches that have no historical ties to Western church traditions. These "spiritual" churches are largely not a result of colonial missions. In fact, the meteoric rise of Christianity in the majority world occurred only after the withdrawal of colonial powers when Christianity became more indigenized.

...The largest church congregation in the world belongs to Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, an Assemblies of God church, which has around 480,000 members. Statistics vary but even conservative estimates guess there were around 98 million evangelical Christians globally in 1970. Now, there are over 342 million.
In my own tradition of Anglicanism, with nearly 60 percent of all Anglicans living in Africa and over 30 percent in Nigeria and Uganda alone, there are most likely more Anglicans in Sunday services in these two countries than in America and England combined.]

https://virtueonline.org/global-transformation-christianity-already-here

---

Christianity is a powerful tool to bring prosperity to oppressed and downtrodden people. Eventually that prosperity leads the people to use God as a spare tire rather than a steering wheel. They start worrying more about their own money than about being faithful to Christianity.

---

Well said.

Widespread adoption of Christian moral norms and values leads to a society seeing rapid economic and civic progress.

People get rich and comfortable and forget God.

The civilization-country-society then begins to come apart.

---

Lather
Rinse
Repeat

The world over
and over
and over

---

If only we had some timeless wisdom and morals by which to guide us, that even includes accurate warnings on how societies fall...

---

that would be great. Where would you find something like that?

---

Probably have to stay at a Motel 6 to find one.

---

Nope. Waffle House.

---

I was thinking of Gideons Bible but I've never been in a Waffle House bathroom so am I missing something?

---

"Timeless wisdom" may be found in more than a book.

---

"Don't try to stop those tra. nnies from brawling, dude, just eat." was the best timeless wisdom I ever had imparted to me at Waffle House.

---

"Hon, you want more bacon?" is the wisdom I found there.

FYI; the tran Es did, indeed, fight each other. Westheimer Waffle House in Houston goes off.

We are in for quite a reckoning as it becomes clearer and clearer that the flipside of liberation and empowerment is alienation and atomization. Being bound to no one means no one is bound to you. pic.twitter.com/5wP4yvTTpv

— Ecclesiasticus44 (@Ecclesiasticu12) April 8, 2023

Christianity has died many times and risen again; for it had a God who knew the way out of the grave.

- G.K. Chesterton pic.twitter.com/XXBKtGnjJh

— Jeremy Wayne Tate (@JeremyTate41) April 9, 2023

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

nobody wants to hear what they are doing is sun just as nobody wants to hear they have cancer. But, if a person doesn't know they have cancer, they will not seek a cure. If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?

---

This cancer was invented just to sell their cure.

---

"If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?"

Really? I am sure even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong. You put bullets in someone, sleep with someone else's wife, lie, or steal you know that isn't OK. They don't care and telling them they should or they are going to Hell doesn't seem to have the teeth it did 400 years ago.

Those that seek forgiveness have to care that they are forgiven. Getting that message across needs to change with the times, a Priest or Pastor on a pulpit telling them they are sinners doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.

---

I used to do a lot of evangelism to strangers during my college years. One of the first questions we would ask after asking the individual if they had a faith (which many purported to have) is, "If you died today, and god asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say?" I can't tell you how many people said, "Because I am a good person." If I had to guess at the percentage of people who said that, it was roughly 80%. They had no concept of their depravity, and need for grace.

So, I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion. The message of the Gospels is, and always has been, we are sinners saved by Christ's grace. You can't have one without the other.

---

You disagreed with a point be didn't make. He said people know right from wrong.

---

I addressed very point he made. Get some reading glasses.

---

No. You addressed sin.

---

Do you remember the question he addressed in the post I responded to? Let me help you: "If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness." My post addresses that point.

---

Yes. Yes you did.

But you did so in response to a later post, not to the post that posed that question.

And your post was non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Be more careful.

---

My statement that "I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion" and my use of the example addresses his point that "even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong." As my post points out, that's actually not the case. Many people don't know what they're doing is wrong (i.e. sin). Perhaps it is my use of the word sin instead of wrong that is tripping you up, but in either regard, I addressed his point, contrary to your assertions.

Quote:

---

Burge goes on:
The implications for the Episcopalians are dire. Recall that the average Episcopalian is in their late sixties today, which means that the average attendance (which was about 550,000 in 2019) will likely be around 300,000 in 2030. That's an average loss of 25,000 per year just through death. The church will be baptizing less than 10,000 infants per year. We know that retention for the mainline is just about 50% now, which means half those children who are baptized will eventually leave the church. When 25,000 people are leaving through death and only 5,000 are being replaced through children who stick around the end is near. I don't think that it's an exaggeration at all to believe that the Episcopalians will no longer exist by 2040.

---

The Church of England, by the way, is predicted to run out of people around 2060 (as is the Catholic Church in the UK).

It's not news that TEC is in trouble, and I don't bring up TEC's travails to rub Episcopalians' noses in it...

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Burge goes on:
The implications for the Episcopalians are dire. Recall that the average Episcopalian is in their late sixties today, which means that the average attendance (which was about 550,000 in 2019) will likely be around 300,000 in 2030. That's an average loss of 25,000 per year just through death. The church will be baptizing less than 10,000 infants per year. We know that retention for the mainline is just about 50% now, which means half those children who are baptized will eventually leave the church. When 25,000 people are leaving through death and only 5,000 are being replaced through children who stick around the end is near. I don't think that it's an exaggeration at all to believe that the Episcopalians will no longer exist by 2040.

---

The Church of England, by the way, is predicted to run out of people around 2060 (as is the Catholic Church in the UK).

It's not news that TEC is in trouble, and I don't bring up TEC's travails to rub Episcopalians' noses in it...

---

TEC?

Osodecentx said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Burge goes on:
The implications for the Episcopalians are dire. Recall that the average Episcopalian is in their late sixties today, which means that the average attendance (which was about 550,000 in 2019) will likely be around 300,000 in 2030. That's an average loss of 25,000 per year just through death. The church will be baptizing less than 10,000 infants per year. We know that retention for the mainline is just about 50% now, which means half those children who are baptized will eventually leave the church. When 25,000 people are leaving through death and only 5,000 are being replaced through children who stick around the end is near. I don't think that it's an exaggeration at all to believe that the Episcopalians will no longer exist by 2040.

---

The Church of England, by the way, is predicted to run out of people around 2060 (as is the Catholic Church in the UK).

It's not news that TEC is in trouble, and I don't bring up TEC's travails to rub Episcopalians' noses in it...

---

TEC?

---

The Episcopal Church (TEC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_(United_States)

Not once did Jesus ever define a person by their sexuality. Conservatives are missing a great opportunity to minister to the LGBTQ community. Conservatives will say that they love the LGBTQ community, but ultimately, they condemn them to hell for simply loving another human being of the same sex, or understanding themselves differently than their birth genitals. The Core of a human being is in part of our sexuality, and to judge others by their expression of their sexuality is grossly arrogant and unjustified. In the sinner or not we live in God's grace now and forever. Unless church preaches grace, for all, it will continue to die. Hell is empty and grace abounds eternally for as Paul says where sin bounden abounding grace that all the more abound.

Catholics are now the minority among Hispanics: pic.twitter.com/EuvhbPVQMU

— True Discipline (@TruueDiscipline) April 16, 2023

America wrings the religion out of religious immigrant groups and turns them into lukewarms or agnostics https://t.co/8mdg0jx4NP

— HRSTY (@Hrstyyy) April 17, 2023

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

nobody wants to hear what they are doing is sun just as nobody wants to hear they have cancer. But, if a person doesn't know they have cancer, they will not seek a cure. If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?

---

This cancer was invented just to sell their cure.

---

"If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?"

Really? I am sure even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong. You put bullets in someone, sleep with someone else's wife, lie, or steal you know that isn't OK. They don't care and telling them they should or they are going to Hell doesn't seem to have the teeth it did 400 years ago.

Those that seek forgiveness have to care that they are forgiven. Getting that message across needs to change with the times, a Priest or Pastor on a pulpit telling them they are sinners doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.

---

I used to do a lot of evangelism to strangers during my college years. One of the first questions we would ask after asking the individual if they had a faith (which many purported to have) is, "If you died today, and god asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say?" I can't tell you how many people said, "Because I am a good person." If I had to guess at the percentage of people who said that, it was roughly 80%. They had no concept of their depravity, and need for grace.

So, I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion. The message of the Gospels is, and always has been, we are sinners saved by Christ's grace. You can't have one without the other.

---

You disagreed with a point be didn't make. He said people know right from wrong.

---

I addressed very point he made. Get some reading glasses.

---

No. You addressed sin.

---

Do you remember the question he addressed in the post I responded to? Let me help you: "If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness." My post addresses that point.

---

Yes. Yes you did.

But you did so in response to a later post, not to the post that posed that question.

And your post was non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Be more careful.

---

My statement that "I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion" and my use of the example addresses his point that "even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong." As my post points out, that's actually not the case. Many people don't know what they're doing is wrong (i.e. sin). Perhaps it is my use of the word sin instead of wrong that is tripping you up, but in either regard, I addressed his point, contrary to your assertions.

---

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

It is exactly your use of sin instead of wrong that is causing me to trip. That is a qualitative change, which is why I think it is non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Let me put it a different way. I don't think you adequately addressed his point, but you did carefully make your point.

Waco1947 said:

---

Not once did Jesus ever define a person by their sexuality. Conservatives are missing a great opportunity to minister to the LGBTQ community. Conservatives will say that they love the LGBTQ community, but ultimately, they condemn them to hell for simply loving another human being of the same sex, or understanding themselves differently than their birth genitals. The Core of a human being is in part of our sexuality, and to judge others by their expression of their sexuality is grossly arrogant and unjustified. In the sinner or not we live in God's grace now and forever. Unless church preaches grace, for all, it will continue to die. Hell is empty and grace abounds eternally for as Paul says where sin bounden abounding grace that all the more abound.

---

One does not minister to someone by condoning and affirming a sinful lifestyle that will ultimately lead to separation from God. We do so by speaking truth in love, like Christ and his disciples.

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

quash said:

---

Mothra said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

quash said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.

It's really happening in the middle of the country.

States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a

— Ryan Burge 📊 (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023

---

1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money

Wonder why people are not going to Church....

---

what does the church want them to do?

---

You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.

In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...

---

We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.

Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.

---

No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.

They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.

---

Other than not giving, guilt in what?

People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?

Attendance is important, if that's the goal.

It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.

Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?

---

Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.

Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.

---

nobody wants to hear what they are doing is sun just as nobody wants to hear they have cancer. But, if a person doesn't know they have cancer, they will not seek a cure. If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?

---

This cancer was invented just to sell their cure.

---

"If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness?"

Really? I am sure even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong. You put bullets in someone, sleep with someone else's wife, lie, or steal you know that isn't OK. They don't care and telling them they should or they are going to Hell doesn't seem to have the teeth it did 400 years ago.

Those that seek forgiveness have to care that they are forgiven. Getting that message across needs to change with the times, a Priest or Pastor on a pulpit telling them they are sinners doesn't seem to be cutting it anymore.

---

I used to do a lot of evangelism to strangers during my college years. One of the first questions we would ask after asking the individual if they had a faith (which many purported to have) is, "If you died today, and god asked you why he should let you into heaven, what would you say?" I can't tell you how many people said, "Because I am a good person." If I had to guess at the percentage of people who said that, it was roughly 80%. They had no concept of their depravity, and need for grace.

So, I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion. The message of the Gospels is, and always has been, we are sinners saved by Christ's grace. You can't have one without the other.

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You disagreed with a point be didn't make. He said people know right from wrong.

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I addressed very point he made. Get some reading glasses.

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No. You addressed sin.

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Do you remember the question he addressed in the post I responded to? Let me help you: "If a person doesn't know they are a sinner, why would they ever seek forgiveness." My post addresses that point.

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Yes. Yes you did.

But you did so in response to a later post, not to the post that posed that question.

And your post was non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Be more careful.

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My statement that "I have to disagree with you that people's recognition of themselves as sinners is a foregone conclusion" and my use of the example addresses his point that "even the most amoral person knows when they are breaking the 10 Commandments. Let's just end that charade, people know when they are doing wrong." As my post points out, that's actually not the case. Many people don't know what they're doing is wrong (i.e. sin). Perhaps it is my use of the word sin instead of wrong that is tripping you up, but in either regard, I addressed his point, contrary to your assertions.

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Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

It is exactly your use of sin instead of wrong that is causing me to trip. That is a qualitative change, which is why I think it is non-responsive to the post you replied to.

Let me put it a different way. I don't think you adequately addressed his point, but you did carefully make your point.

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Even if we use the word "wrong" instead of "sin," it doesn't change my response to his post. If someone doesn't understand that something is wrong (and therefore sinful), then they also need to hear about the consequences of doing wrong, and the corresponding need for grace. As I said before, I have encountered countless people who, although they would acknowledge they've broken the 10 commandments, didn't understand the consequences of it. Whether you agree with the Christian tenets or not, a bedrock of the faith is the depravity of man, and need for a savior.

JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Not once did Jesus ever define a person by their sexuality. Conservatives are missing a great opportunity to minister to the LGBTQ community. Conservatives will say that they love the LGBTQ community, but ultimately, they condemn them to hell for simply loving another human being of the same sex, or understanding themselves differently than their birth genitals. The Core of a human being is in part of our sexuality, and to judge others by their expression of their sexuality is grossly arrogant and unjustified. In the sinner or not we live in God's grace now and forever. Unless church preaches grace, for all, it will continue to die. Hell is empty and grace abounds eternally for as Paul says where sin bounden abounding grace that all the more abound.

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Doesn't grace call for repentance and turning away from sin?

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If grace called for repentance then it would not be grace

Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Not once did Jesus ever define a person by their sexuality. Conservatives are missing a great opportunity to minister to the LGBTQ community. Conservatives will say that they love the LGBTQ community, but ultimately, they condemn them to hell for simply loving another human being of the same sex, or understanding themselves differently than their birth genitals. The Core of a human being is in part of our sexuality, and to judge others by their expression of their sexuality is grossly arrogant and unjustified. In the sinner or not we live in God's grace now and forever. Unless church preaches grace, for all, it will continue to die. Hell is empty and grace abounds eternally for as Paul says where sin bounden abounding grace that all the more abound.

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Doesn't grace call for repentance and turning away from sin?

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If grace called for repentance then it would not be grace

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You are confusing License with Grace again, Waco.

Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Not once did Jesus ever define a person by their sexuality. Conservatives are missing a great opportunity to minister to the LGBTQ community. Conservatives will say that they love the LGBTQ community, but ultimately, they condemn them to hell for simply loving another human being of the same sex, or understanding themselves differently than their birth genitals. The Core of a human being is in part of our sexuality, and to judge others by their expression of their sexuality is grossly arrogant and unjustified. In the sinner or not we live in God's grace now and forever. Unless church preaches grace, for all, it will continue to die. Hell is empty and grace abounds eternally for as Paul says where sin bounden abounding grace that all the more abound.

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Doesn't grace call for repentance and turning away from sin?

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If grace called for repentance then it would not be grace

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"Go, and sin no more…. or, keep sinning. It really doesn't matter to me."
47s self-created god.

Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.

Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:

Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.

- Jim Palmer

Waco1947 said:

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Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.

Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:

Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.

- Jim Palmer

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Hey Jim. I've a lot more respect for you as a pitcher than a preacher.

Talk to me about two things please, how would you describe "skip in a fast ball" and "go and sin no more". Thanks in advance.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Not once did Jesus ever define a person by their sexuality. Conservatives are missing a great opportunity to minister to the LGBTQ community. Conservatives will say that they love the LGBTQ community, but ultimately, they condemn them to hell for simply loving another human being of the same sex, or understanding themselves differently than their birth genitals. The Core of a human being is in part of our sexuality, and to judge others by their expression of their sexuality is grossly arrogant and unjustified. In the sinner or not we live in God's grace now and forever. Unless church preaches grace, for all, it will continue to die. Hell is empty and grace abounds eternally for as Paul says where sin bounden abounding grace that all the more abound.

---

Doesn't grace call for repentance and turning away from sin?

---

If grace called for repentance then it would not be grace

---

"Go, and sin no more…. or, keep sinning. It really doesn't matter to me."
47s self-created god.

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"Romans 5: 20 But law came in, so that the trespass might increase, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so grace might also reign through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

Back in the day, I was a pastor at the largest church in North America. Eventually I walked away from it all because I could not teach beliefs and doctrines that I myself no longer accepted. No person taught evangelical theology with the devotion and passion that I did, but one day I realized this did not produce true and lasting change in others lives or my own.

Looking back, I can see I made at least these mistakes as a megachurch pastor:

Putting church over community
Putting orthodoxy over love.
Putting certainty over wonder.
Putting teaching over conversation.
Putting polished over real.
Putting explanations over empathy.
Putting answers over questions.
Putting membership over friendship.
Putting prayer over action.
Putting services over self-care.
Putting style over substance.
Putting appearance over authenticity.
Putting functionality over beauty.
Putting religion over spirituality.
Putting numbers over faces.
Putting holiness over humanity.
Putting accountability over acceptance.
Putting heaven over earth.
Putting meetings over relationships.
Putting reputation over risk.
Putting superiority over humility.
Putting charisma over compassion.
Putting the afterlife over the herelife.
Putting doctrine over reason.
Putting hierarchy over equality.

- Jim Palmer

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Hey Jim. I've a lot more respect for you as a pitcher than a preacher.

Talk to me about two things please, how would you describe "skip in a fast ball" and "go and sin no more". Thanks in advance.

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Ha Ha Ha! I see what you did there.

"Go and sin no more" Of course Jesus said it and it is the holy way to live but remember Jesus forgave her sin - where sin abounded grace did all the more abound."

And what about all those guys wanting Jesus to approve their actions of stoning her. They should go and sin no more, too. You miss the context - in the the story Jesus was first and foremost grace and if she sinned again Jesus would again forgive her.

We, Disciples, finally, figure out that grace means gratitude on our part so we become a new creation in Christ and strive to live a holy life.

Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

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Not once did Jesus ever define a person by their sexuality. Conservatives are missing a great opportunity to minister to the LGBTQ community. Conservatives will say that they love the LGBTQ community, but ultimately, they condemn them to hell for simply loving another human being of the same sex, or understanding themselves differently than their birth genitals. The Core of a human being is in part of our sexuality, and to judge others by their expression of their sexuality is grossly arrogant and unjustified. In the sinner or not we live in God's grace now and forever. Unless church preaches grace, for all, it will continue to die. Hell is empty and grace abounds eternally for as Paul says where sin bounden abounding grace that all the more abound.

---

Doesn't grace call for repentance and turning away from sin?

---

If grace called for repentance then it would not be grace

---

"Go, and sin no more…. or, keep sinning. It really doesn't matter to me."
47s self-created god.

---

"Romans 5: 20 But law came in, so that the trespass might increase, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so grace might also reign through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Keep reading. Romans 6 follows Romans 5