Osodecentx said:Seems like you should take the parts you agree with and the parts that make you uncomfortable, the whole counsel of God.RMF5630 said:We all have different parts that we like. I am partial to Mark over the other Gospels. Due to it being the earliest, my wife read Mathew. I thought Paul was a whiny know it all *****, preferred Peter. Such is human bias.Oldbear83 said:Seems to me Paul's writings are consistent with Gospel teachings. As for what he saw, we only have the testimony of Mary and some others that Jesus rose from the dead.RMF5630 said:Seems most of how Churches operate seem attributed to him and his letters. He was sort of a know it all that pushed his way to the adult table, even though there is no proof he saw Christ. Just not my favorite.Mothra said:I agree with your statement that dogmas of the institutions are the issue as opposed to scripture itself. When we add requirements to salvation, among other things, we are twisting the gospel message.RMF5630 said:I agree that the Gospel does not change. I also believe that there are sound basics that don't change, such as 10 Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Gospels. I would venture that most of the issues are more from dogma's of the institutions, not the Gospels... No one said water down the Gospels. Maybe focus on the Gospels and sacraments more and the how to live your life from the pulpit less.Mothra said:RMF5630 said:The original discussion was Church membership and attendance is falling off more and more.Mothra said:Osodecentx said:Glad I haven't attended your church. I think that is an incorrect interpretation/application if it is being taught as a requirementForest Bueller_bf said:It's not a stumbling issue for me at all. I have attended, in the past, a church that required a 10% commitment, and then shaming if you couldn't keep up with that.Osodecentx said:Forest Bueller_bf said:The 10% requirement game is a sin in my mind.RMF5630 said:Oh, beside tithing (the favorite of the Protestants, the Catholics are copying on that!) sex life, service attendance, morals in general. The "stick" message is not being received by the younger generations, time to try something else.LIB,MR BEARS said:RMF5630 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:RMF5630 said:LIB,MR BEARS said:what does the church want them to do?RMF5630 said:Redbrickbear said:The nonreligious aren't growing where many people would assume.
— Ryan Burge π (@ryanburge) April 2, 2023
It's really happening in the middle of the country.
States like Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.
Religion is still growing in the Bible Belt, but also big numbers in Florida, too. pic.twitter.com/tiHXqET18a
1 - Continually tell people that they are living wrong.
2 - Guilt them into doing what the Church wants them to do.
3 - Continually hit them up for money
Wonder why people are not going to Church....
You want people to come to Service, stop guilting the **** out of them. I can't go to a service, Catholic or Lutheran and not get hit up for money. If it's not 10% of gross, you are not tithing and are lectured why I should.
In FL Baptist are worse, your whole life has to revolve around their building complex. Yeah, that will attract people to the Word. Too many, the Word is "revenue"...
We'll, that answered your #3 by basically repeating #3. Close enough.
Let's try your #2. It sounds like a big concern.
No, the guilt is much more than just money. It is basically anything the Church doesn't want. They don't just explain what is wrong, they pound on eternal damnation etc. In a time of more educated congregation, it plays as control not moral assistance. Then hitting up for cash makes it worse.
They wonder why attendance is down? Can't use 19th Century tactics on a 21st Century congregation. They will walk away.
Other than not giving, guilt in what?
People are different and churches are led by people. Do all the church leaders want the same thing?
Attendance is important, if that's the goal.
It seems odd that if money seems to be the goal the church couldn't figure out that low attendance doesn't lead to big money.
Joel Olsteen doesn't seem to have an issue with attendance or inflicting guilt and the dudes got tons of money coming in. Is he doing it the right way?
Pews are half empty every week. The number of families I see, I can count on one hand. Most are over 40, with a good percent over 60. We go to an early Mass, so probably more at later services but not many. I am seeing Communion and Confirmation classes of 3 to 5. What I made mine, over 150 easy. Data seems to be supporting it. My Adult kids, only on Christmas and Easter. They both went to Catholic school, Church every Sunday, and never missed Communion or Confirmation classes. In their 20's, as I am told, they don't want to hear that living together is a sin or to give 10% of the 50k he makes and can barley survive. It is not an uncommon message.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
2 Corinthians 8:12
For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.
If 10% is a requirement, how can we be commanded in the New Testament, not to give under compulsion or as a requirement. If we simply don't have the money, how can you give according to what you don't have.
I think educated Theologians should be taken out to the woodshed for pushing the tithe as if it is a Law, when through Christ we are no longer under the burden of the law. How can you "give freely" if there is a minimum requirement.
Southern Baptist teach it as if it is the 11th commandment. I believe their theology here is in error. I have never been to a SBC church where they didn't say to give your Tithes and Offerings, as if we are still under the Law of the Tithe.
10% isn't a requirement for salvation
I'm a member of a Southern Baptist church. I haven't heard 10% preached in my memory. We do support our church and several parachurch organizations
God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He doesn't need your money. If that is stumbling you, keep your money
It is a stumbling issue though for pastors who teach this subject incorrectly. It should be taught as it is in the New Testament church, not in the Old Testament Temple. Incorrect teaching is my issue. And incorrect teaching that shames poor, who often actually need help and assistance, not a requirement to give 10% of what they don't posses.
When giving time comes around and "tithes and offerings" are on the projection or mentioned, which it has been in every Baptist church I've ever attended, tithe means 10%, so it may not be preached, but it is certainly assumed.
Some in church should give much much more than 10%, some can't give any, all should give what they have determined in their heart, without compulsion.
While tithing is not a requirement for salvation, it is an act of obedience. And I do think it could be interpreted as sinful if one neglects that act of obedience. Of course, there is no requirement of 10%.
I am offering reasons why the younger generations are avoiding Church. We all will pretty much disagree that they are satisfactory reasons, since everyone here pretty much attends every week (at least based on the conversation).
But it is all a matter of degrees:
I usually show up for the homily, leave when the Priest says "the Mass has ended, go" and am not a stickler on Holy Days. My pre-Vatican 2 Dad, is on me about it every time the subject comes up, even though I never miss a Sunday, Christmas or Easter, go to confession once a year and go to communion consistently. He is constantly on me about it.
My son and daughter, they do not attend, live with their significant others and see no use for Church until they have kids. They say they believe and were raised going every week, My wife (she goes on time and follows every tenant) and I disagree with them and would be happy if they went once a month and got married!
I have nieces and nephews that pretty much don't believe and think it is superstition akin to voodoo or worshiping a volcano. My in-laws would be ecstatic if they just came back to believing.
Some would say all are the same. The one showing up late is just as bad as those that don't go or don't believe. That is a tough nut for the current times...
What is interesting is that while the traditional denominations have seen a steady decline, the non-denominational Bible churches, have seen rapid growth the last decade. So not all churches are dying. I do think that part of the problem with some of these churches is an attempt to conform to today's mores. If history has shown us, anything, it is that a water down version of the gospel will not attract people. When the church embraces sin and lifestyles that are outside of God's will, as many of today's churches have done (see the Presbyterian's, Methodists and Episcopalians) it is always followed by a significant decline in membership.
By the way, I didn't say Bible because the Gospels seem to be the only thing the denominations seem to agree on! Where I have issues in the Bible is more with Paul's teachings, not a big fan of Paul.
As for Paul, what is your issue with him?
I take it on faith.
Don't we all do that to some extend. Obedience does not mean agreement. Don't you think God wants us to think about these things? Or, do you believe Jesus message is blind obedience to the rules and interpretations the "Church" or "Pharacies" say?
