It's interesting because there really is no schism between religion and science from a belief standpoint. The scientific method does not work on God. An atheist can't disprove the existence of a higher power. One can believe in the big bang and be a person of faith. Probably a discussion for another board but it takes a good deal of faith to be a full out atheist. To truly believe that there is no higher power only some random ball of energy that exploded and created everything. I find that much harder to believe than there being a higher power that played a role in creationism. Who is to say "let there be light" wasn't the Big Bang? The lines before say "formless void and darkness"

Waco1947 said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

Many reasons for people leaving the church. My friends that grew up most religious in very strict households are the ones who now are quite happy to call themselves agnostic or atheist. For these people the turnoff was not being allowed to make decisions for themselves or ask questions when reading biblical texts. Iron fisted parents who ruled via the wrath of God and not His love.

Next is the surprising conservative bunch who have left the church. They seem to maybe over embrace the "rugged individualism" of America. They don't need help from a community. They can do everything on their own. They also seem overly concerned with politics. There's also the lefty folks who get into the new aged religions.

Then is a set who got ostracized from a church for supporting a gay family member, deciding a few bourbons on Saturday night wasn't a sin worse than what other members were committing behind closed doors, maybe the church's evangelicalism got a little to much for their taste or what they felt God wanted. At some point they felt their church left them or was being close minded.

Finally is a group that identifies as Christian but not a specific denomination and doesn't feel at home in the churches they've attended. They might work on Sundays to pay the bills, might not like a minister delivering a sermon they view as political in nature, fall asleep singing old hymns, but feel awkward throwing the hands up in a modern rock hymn session, etc.

Life isn't black and white and neither are many peoples decision to leave the church. I've seen comments saying parents have become soft on their kids with regards to church. I'd caution that's a tight line because as mentioned above my friends who grew up in the strictest of religious households tended to flee the furthest upon hitting 18 or whenever they achieved financial independence. Kids need some space to experiment, fail, and ask questions. Asking questions as I do here sure gets one in trouble and I bump into rigid theology that countenances no discrepancy.

---

Your observations are spot on.
The church will not die but it will diminish in numbers and influence because people ask about science and God. Non-denoms and Baptist, Evangelicals and hard line Catholics certainly do not want question. Dogma reigns with them.

---

Agree, but how do you embrace more of the population and maintain the standard? Many on the dogma side are modern day Pharacies, we all think we are not as we defend he law. How does that group allow the church to explore different ways of bringing the message? What we do at service or Mass is not "it". Those services have changed 100 times over the years. Why is some of the other changes so out of bounds? Not using gender specific? So? Pain yes, but heretical?

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

quash said:

---

The end of superstition can't come fast enough.

---

So true

---

He's talking about you as well, numnuts.

---

I agree with quash. The end of superstition cannot come fast enough. The scientific age is happening and secular people understand this new age but but many like you insist on superstition.

---

Is love provable? Do you love your wife? Of course you do. What more proof do you need?
Does Jesus love you? Of course he does. What more proof do you need?


The "scientific age"? Really? Americans tend toward the stupid and are clearly devolving intellectually. Absent the influence of Christianity, what comes next will be beyond our worst imagining.

---

Whether "Americans tend toward stupid" is immaterial to this Fact: The scientific age is here and superstition is dead.
Argue against this premise.

I will admit that Americans tend toward believing in superstition but sciene says it is dead.

---

Certainly. Quash will tell you that belief in God - and the belief that God is love - is itself superstition. But since you say that "the love commandment is provable," then by all means, go ahead and prove it.

---

I do you love your wife? Then there's your proof. Does Jesus love you? Then there's your proof. Love is provable in the ways that we trade each other.

---

Actually love is purely subjective and cannot be scientifically proven or quantified in any way. Furthermore, if Jesus loves me, this is necessarily supernatural, since He died 2000 years ago, and thus His love cannot exist in the worldview which you have expressed. In fact, one might even say that believing that a long-dead person still loves you is superstitious.

---

I did not say love could scientifically prove. Love can be proven in scripture, the cross, and in the Holy Sprit. I am not making an argument for scientifically proven love but scripturally proven love.

---

I recall numerous occasions in which you criticized posters for referring to scripture to prove the existence of a supernatural God. And yet, now you refer to scripture to prove God is love?

Tell us, why do you hold yourself to a different standard than others?

And again, you have still not provided any evidence of how God imparts love to humanity without some unnatural power. Cat got your tongue again? Or you just don't have an answer?

boykin_spaniel said:

---

It's interesting because there really is no schism between religion and science from a belief standpoint. The scientific method does not work on God. An atheist can't disprove the existence of a higher power. One can believe in the big bang and be a person of faith. Probably a discussion for another board but it takes a good deal of faith to be a full out atheist. To truly believe that there is no higher power only some random ball of energy that exploded and created everything. I find that much harder to believe than there being a higher power that played a role in creationism. Who is to say "let there be light" wasn't the Big Bang? The lines before say "formless void and darkness"

---

Well said.

Waco1947 said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

Many reasons for people leaving the church. My friends that grew up most religious in very strict households are the ones who now are quite happy to call themselves agnostic or atheist. For these people the turnoff was not being allowed to make decisions for themselves or ask questions when reading biblical texts. Iron fisted parents who ruled via the wrath of God and not His love.

Next is the surprising conservative bunch who have left the church. They seem to maybe over embrace the "rugged individualism" of America. They don't need help from a community. They can do everything on their own. They also seem overly concerned with politics. There's also the lefty folks who get into the new aged religions.

Then is a set who got ostracized from a church for supporting a gay family member, deciding a few bourbons on Saturday night wasn't a sin worse than what other members were committing behind closed doors, maybe the church's evangelicalism got a little to much for their taste or what they felt God wanted. At some point they felt their church left them or was being close minded.

Finally is a group that identifies as Christian but not a specific denomination and doesn't feel at home in the churches they've attended. They might work on Sundays to pay the bills, might not like a minister delivering a sermon they view as political in nature, fall asleep singing old hymns, but feel awkward throwing the hands up in a modern rock hymn session, etc.

Life isn't black and white and neither are many peoples decision to leave the church. I've seen comments saying parents have become soft on their kids with regards to church. I'd caution that's a tight line because as mentioned above my friends who grew up in the strictest of religious households tended to flee the furthest upon hitting 18 or whenever they achieved financial independence. Kids need some space to experiment, fail, and ask questions. Asking questions as I do here sure gets one in trouble and I bump into rigid theology that countenances no discrepancy.

---

Your observations are spot on.
The church will not die but it will diminish in numbers and influence because people ask about science and God. Non-denoms and Baptist, Evangelicals and hard line Catholics certainly do not want question. Dogma reigns with them.

---

I hate to burst your bubble, 47, but it's not asking questions that gets you in trouble. I am sure you fancy yourself as an intellectual, but your questions are generally not very well-thought-out, not that provocative and not thought provoking. Yes, your posts do get a rise out of people because you engage in condescending stereotypes in which you judge yourself a better Christian than the evangelicals and fundamentalists you loathe, and adhere to beliefs that are contrary to your purported faith. You also get a lot of grief because of your ineptness and total inability to explain the logic behind your positions. You are good at questioning the basic tenets of Christianity, but when someone points out the absurdity of your logic (or your lack of logic), you typically run and hide - totally unable to defend your faith.

Take this thread for example - you have been wholly unable to explain how an un-supernatural "god" long dead is able to impart love to humanity some 2,000 years after his death. You claim that the secular person will refuse to believe in the supernatural when your very belief system relies on god's supernatural ability to impart love to humanity long after his death. How do you explain to the secular person that a man who died 2,000 years ago was a "god" who still imparts his love to us today without invoking the supernatural? The answer is: you can't.

I am fine with honest questions about my faith. I am fine with an actual discussion. Iron sharpens iron, as they say. But engaging with someone who is intellectually dishonest, is a flame thrower who tosses condescending questions like grenades and then runs and hides the first moment his own beliefs are challenged, no thanks. That is not a discussion. It is instead a waste of everyone's time. If you can't answer questions about your faith, then don't dish it out.

Not the US but relevant to the discussion.

Religion in England (2021 Census) 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿:

Christian: 46% (26,000,000)

No Religion: 37% (21,000,000)

Muslim: 7% (4,000,000)

Not Stated: 6% (3,000,000)

Hindu: 2% (1,000,000)

Sikh: 1% (500,000)

Other: 0.6% (300,000)

Jewish: 0.5% (270,000)

Buddhist: 0.5% (260,000) pic.twitter.com/fGRCsGLsdW

— Sir Walter Raleigh 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 (@NxlAnglo) February 15, 2023

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

People will always worship something.

So what could they possible worship, if Christianity is on the decline? Hmmmm... i wonder what it will be...

Don’t fight the culture wars, they say. Meanwhile demons are teaching your kids to worship Satan. I could throw up.

pic.twitter.com/p1rqEwVeSW

— Liz Wheeler (@Liz_Wheeler) February 6, 2023

---

LOL. Art is not life.

Satan isn't real either.

But a lot of snowflakes outed themselves over this.

---

Real or not, he has been a powerful symbol in so-called progressive art and politics from the time of the Romantics, to the mass socialist movements of the 20th century, and down to the present--typically with brutal results. Diabolical forces will do diabolical works, regardless of their origin.

---

There are bad people, not diabolical entities.

boykin_spaniel said:

---

It's interesting because there really is no schism between religion and science from a belief standpoint. The scientific method does not work on God. An atheist can't disprove the existence of a higher power. One can believe in the big bang and be a person of faith. Probably a discussion for another board but it takes a good deal of faith to be a full out atheist. To truly believe that there is no higher power only some random ball of energy that exploded and created everything. I find that much harder to believe than there being a higher power that played a role in creationism. Who is to say "let there be light" wasn't the Big Bang? The lines before say "formless void and darkness"

---

I'm an agnostic because of that "prove a negative" argument. The bible doesn't come close to a supernatural explanation of the natural world. And it wasn't written for that purpose anyway.

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

People will always worship something.

So what could they possible worship, if Christianity is on the decline? Hmmmm... i wonder what it will be...

Don’t fight the culture wars, they say. Meanwhile demons are teaching your kids to worship Satan. I could throw up.

pic.twitter.com/p1rqEwVeSW

— Liz Wheeler (@Liz_Wheeler) February 6, 2023

---

LOL. Art is not life.

Satan isn't real either.

But a lot of snowflakes outed themselves over this.

---

Real or not, he has been a powerful symbol in so-called progressive art and politics from the time of the Romantics, to the mass socialist movements of the 20th century, and down to the present--typically with brutal results. Diabolical forces will do diabolical works, regardless of their origin.

---

There are bad people, not diabolical entities.

---

By "forces" I mean social forces, not necessarily entities. All religions have a social dimension. This is why we're concerned about things like radical Islam, regardless of our religious beliefs.

I've talked with Christians and Jewish folk who read the Bible/Tanakh more as literature. They see Genesis as an epic poem. I think it's possible to see it as both. Divine word and epic poem. Translated from thousands of years ago through multiple languages. I would never fault someone for questioning if every word today is as it was written in it's time.

Many Christians today see the power of Jesus feeding the 5,000 not that he summoned up fish and bread out of nowhere but that he summoned up those were able to bring enough to share and feed those who had nothing. Both can be viewed as a miracle. There are kids in the United States whose only meal comes from school and they don't eat anything over the weekend and fend for themselves over breaks. Bread and fish are not appearing out of thin air for them but good hearted people can show up bringing nourishment and a reminder that they are not forgotten. The latter is perhaps even more impactful.

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

People will always worship something.

So what could they possible worship, if Christianity is on the decline? Hmmmm... i wonder what it will be...

Don’t fight the culture wars, they say. Meanwhile demons are teaching your kids to worship Satan. I could throw up.

pic.twitter.com/p1rqEwVeSW

— Liz Wheeler (@Liz_Wheeler) February 6, 2023

---

LOL. Art is not life.

Satan isn't real either.

But a lot of snowflakes outed themselves over this.

---

Real or not, he has been a powerful symbol in so-called progressive art and politics from the time of the Romantics, to the mass socialist movements of the 20th century, and down to the present--typically with brutal results. Diabolical forces will do diabolical works, regardless of their origin.

---

There are bad people, not diabolical entities.

---

Jesus said and showed otherwise. He rose from the dead. I'll take his word over yours.

RMF5630 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

Many reasons for people leaving the church. My friends that grew up most religious in very strict households are the ones who now are quite happy to call themselves agnostic or atheist. For these people the turnoff was not being allowed to make decisions for themselves or ask questions when reading biblical texts. Iron fisted parents who ruled via the wrath of God and not His love.

Next is the surprising conservative bunch who have left the church. They seem to maybe over embrace the "rugged individualism" of America. They don't need help from a community. They can do everything on their own. They also seem overly concerned with politics. There's also the lefty folks who get into the new aged religions.

Then is a set who got ostracized from a church for supporting a gay family member, deciding a few bourbons on Saturday night wasn't a sin worse than what other members were committing behind closed doors, maybe the church's evangelicalism got a little to much for their taste or what they felt God wanted. At some point they felt their church left them or was being close minded.

Finally is a group that identifies as Christian but not a specific denomination and doesn't feel at home in the churches they've attended. They might work on Sundays to pay the bills, might not like a minister delivering a sermon they view as political in nature, fall asleep singing old hymns, but feel awkward throwing the hands up in a modern rock hymn session, etc.

Life isn't black and white and neither are many peoples decision to leave the church. I've seen comments saying parents have become soft on their kids with regards to church. I'd caution that's a tight line because as mentioned above my friends who grew up in the strictest of religious households tended to flee the furthest upon hitting 18 or whenever they achieved financial independence. Kids need some space to experiment, fail, and ask questions. Asking questions as I do here sure gets one in trouble and I bump into rigid theology that countenances no discrepancy.

---

Your observations are spot on.
The church will not die but it will diminish in numbers and influence because people ask about science and God. Non-denoms and Baptist, Evangelicals and hard line Catholics certainly do not want question. Dogma reigns with them.

---

Agree, but how do you embrace more of the population and maintain the standard? Many on the dogma side are modern day Pharacies, we all think we are not as we defend he law. How does that group allow the church to explore different ways of bringing the message? What we do at service or Mass is not "it". Those services have changed 100 times over the years. Why is some of the other changes so out of bounds? Not using gender specific? So? Pain yes, but heretical?

---

If Jesus said for us to refer to God as "Our FATHER, who is in Heaven..", is it a small thing to directly oppose what Jesus prescribes? From what spirit would such a movement come, God's Holy Spirit....or the spirit of the enemy?

Here's something a little more definitive that you should take heed: the book of Revelation distinctly refers to God as "Father" and "him". At the end of Revelation, there is a chilling warning:

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

So yes - painful, heretical... and eternally disqualifying. I say this settles it, don't you think?

The Gospel is still being spread by TV and the internet . Its estimated there are about 2.2 billion Christians worldwide.

chriscbear said:

---

The Gospel is still being spread by TV and the internet . Its estimated there are about 2.2 billion Christians worldwide.

---

Of course and we can all be thankful of that.

"and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

But we can of course notice and mourn that Christianity is dying in the Western world.

Waco1947 said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

Many reasons for people leaving the church. My friends that grew up most religious in very strict households are the ones who now are quite happy to call themselves agnostic or atheist. For these people the turnoff was not being allowed to make decisions for themselves or ask questions when reading biblical texts. Iron fisted parents who ruled via the wrath of God and not His love.

Next is the surprising conservative bunch who have left the church. They seem to maybe over embrace the "rugged individualism" of America. They don't need help from a community. They can do everything on their own. They also seem overly concerned with politics. There's also the lefty folks who get into the new aged religions.

Then is a set who got ostracized from a church for supporting a gay family member, deciding a few bourbons on Saturday night wasn't a sin worse than what other members were committing behind closed doors, maybe the church's evangelicalism got a little to much for their taste or what they felt God wanted. At some point they felt their church left them or was being close minded.

Finally is a group that identifies as Christian but not a specific denomination and doesn't feel at home in the churches they've attended. They might work on Sundays to pay the bills, might not like a minister delivering a sermon they view as political in nature, fall asleep singing old hymns, but feel awkward throwing the hands up in a modern rock hymn session, etc.

Life isn't black and white and neither are many peoples decision to leave the church. I've seen comments saying parents have become soft on their kids with regards to church. I'd caution that's a tight line because as mentioned above my friends who grew up in the strictest of religious households tended to flee the furthest upon hitting 18 or whenever they achieved financial independence. Kids need some space to experiment, fail, and ask questions. Asking questions as I do here sure gets one in trouble and I bump into rigid theology that countenances no discrepancy.

---

Your observations are spot on.
The church will not die but it will diminish in numbers and influence because people ask about science and God. Non-denoms and Baptist, Evangelicals and hard line Catholics certainly do not want question. Dogma reigns with them.

---

Actually, I find the Roman church welcomes questions and more to the point, will direct you to the answers perhaps more than any other denomination. They have the benefit of almost 2000 years of deep thought,
debate, and councils who thrashed through most questions and left written responses. Their catechism is fairly comprehensive. We may not agree on everything, but there's little that hasn't been asked and answered. Your problem is you don't like most orthodox Christian answers. Not the same thing as not welcoming questions.

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we hafve those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we hafve those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

Christ didn't yell and scream at the rich young ruler. He told him what he needed to do and then let him decide.

The people Christ really got onto (snakes) were the hypocrites.

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

quash said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

People will always worship something.

So what could they possible worship, if Christianity is on the decline? Hmmmm... i wonder what it will be...

Don’t fight the culture wars, they say. Meanwhile demons are teaching your kids to worship Satan. I could throw up.

pic.twitter.com/p1rqEwVeSW

— Liz Wheeler (@Liz_Wheeler) February 6, 2023

---

LOL. Art is not life.

Satan isn't real either.

But a lot of snowflakes outed themselves over this.

---

Real or not, he has been a powerful symbol in so-called progressive art and politics from the time of the Romantics, to the mass socialist movements of the 20th century, and down to the present--typically with brutal results. Diabolical forces will do diabolical works, regardless of their origin.

---

There are bad people, not diabolical entities.

---

By "forces" I mean social forces, not necessarily entities. All religions have a social dimension. This is why we're concerned about things like radical Islam, regardless of our religious beliefs.

---

I can buy that.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we hafve those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

Christ didn't yell and scream at the rich young ruler. He told him what he needed to do and then let him decide.

The people Christ really got onto (snakes) were the hypocrites.

---

Let's define hypocrite. Is the person that identifies Christian and goes to Church on Christmas and Easter what he was talking about? Or the Pastor that guilts the widow out of her grocery money so he can live in a mansion? Or the Pastor committing adultry with someone that came for counseling? Or the pedifile Prest?

I belief the last three are the snakes.

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we hafve those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

Christ didn't yell and scream at the rich young ruler. He told him what he needed to do and then let him decide.

The people Christ really got onto (snakes) were the hypocrites.

---

Let's define hypocrite. Is the person that identifies Christian and goes to Church on Christmas and Easter what he was talking about? Or the Pastor that guilts the widow out of her grocery money so he can live in a mansion? Or the Pastor committing adultry with someone that came for counseling? Or the pedifile Prest?

I belief the last three are the snakes.

---

At some point today, I have to work. I'll get back with you.

Christianity has waxed and waned in the United States since Jamestown. I think there are several reasons for the current decline:

• There always have been some group of "social" church-goers because at one time social pressure and business success benefited from church identification
• We have created myriad distractions that lure people away from church attendance, and many of us prioritize those activities over church
• Churches (in the 90s?) completely stopped doing organized evangelism as the non-Christian culture told us it was bad to evangelize
• Ironically, I think the "meet people where they are" was well intentioned but had the unintended consequence of diluting the church experience and community to being unrecognizable from other social activities

I pray for Revival, but honestly I need to work on myself as I have failed epically.

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we hafve those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

Christ didn't yell and scream at the rich young ruler. He told him what he needed to do and then let him decide.

The people Christ really got onto (snakes) were the hypocrites.

---

Let's define hypocrite. Is the person that identifies Christian and goes to Church on Christmas and Easter what he was talking about? Or the Pastor that guilts the widow out of her grocery money so he can live in a mansion? Or the Pastor committing adultry with someone that came for counseling? Or the pedifile Prest?

I belief the last three are the snakes.

---

Not defining hypocrisy broadly, but my exegesis is that Jesus in the passages about the "snakes" were specifically describing the powerful in the Faith that use the Temple / Church to abuse members of the body ... I do no believe he was talking about average believers but leadership.

RMF5630 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

Many reasons for people leaving the church. My friends that grew up most religious in very strict households are the ones who now are quite happy to call themselves agnostic or atheist. For these people the turnoff was not being allowed to make decisions for themselves or ask questions when reading biblical texts. Iron fisted parents who ruled via the wrath of God and not His love.

Next is the surprising conservative bunch who have left the church. They seem to maybe over embrace the "rugged individualism" of America. They don't need help from a community. They can do everything on their own. They also seem overly concerned with politics. There's also the lefty folks who get into the new aged religions.

Then is a set who got ostracized from a church for supporting a gay family member, deciding a few bourbons on Saturday night wasn't a sin worse than what other members were committing behind closed doors, maybe the church's evangelicalism got a little to much for their taste or what they felt God wanted. At some point they felt their church left them or was being close minded.

Finally is a group that identifies as Christian but not a specific denomination and doesn't feel at home in the churches they've attended. They might work on Sundays to pay the bills, might not like a minister delivering a sermon they view as political in nature, fall asleep singing old hymns, but feel awkward throwing the hands up in a modern rock hymn session, etc.

Life isn't black and white and neither are many peoples decision to leave the church. I've seen comments saying parents have become soft on their kids with regards to church. I'd caution that's a tight line because as mentioned above my friends who grew up in the strictest of religious households tended to flee the furthest upon hitting 18 or whenever they achieved financial independence. Kids need some space to experiment, fail, and ask questions. Asking questions as I do here sure gets one in trouble and I bump into rigid theology that countenances no discrepancy.

---

Your observations are spot on.
The church will not die but it will diminish in numbers and influence because people ask about science and God. Non-denoms and Baptist, Evangelicals and hard line Catholics certainly do not want question. Dogma reigns with them.

---

Agree, but how do you embrace more of the population and maintain the standard? Many on the dogma side are modern day Pharisees, we all think we are not as we defend he law. How does that group allow the church to explore different ways of bringing the message? What we do at service or Mass is not "it". Those services have changed 100 times over the years. Why is some of the other changes so out of bounds? Not using gender specific? So? Pain yes, but heretical?

---

Help me out here. I cannot quite figure what you are saying. I few edits would help me

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Christianity has waxed and waned in the United States since Jamestown. I think there are several reasons for the current decline:

• There always have been some group of "social" church-goers because at one time social pressure and business success benefited from church identification
• We have created myriad distractions that lure people away from church attendance, and many of us prioritize those activities over church
• Churches (in the 90s?) completely stopped doing organized evangelism as the non-Christian culture told us it was bad to evangelize
• Ironically, I think the "meet people where they are" was well intentioned but had the unintended consequence of diluting the church experience and community to being unrecognizable from other social activities

I pray for Revival, but honestly I need to work on myself as I have failed epically. Yes, you have and particularly with me . Matthew 7:`12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you,

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. True but why?
Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it. Are you sure they heard it? Maybe the messenger is a fundamentalist or evangelical who simply are Pharisees or non accepting of others who are differently from them. Also secular people will never buy your all powerful god who allows earthquakes to happen and is supposed to love.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

RMF said: The world is full of people that
1. who just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it.
2. a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.)
3. Then we have those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.)

Can you give examples of each category? Also what is your context?

'Pharacies'?

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

boykin_spaniel said:

---

I believe in the resurrection. Just sharing what I've heard others say during theological discussions. Did not broach the resurrection. Can share their thoughts next theological debate that arises.

I wonder if Christianity is starting to parallel Judaism. I've talked to Jewish people who identify as Jewish but aren't practicing. They aren't kosher, don't read the Torah, etc, but they appreciate the culture, community, and history. Having lived in the Czech Republic, one of the worlds least religious countries, they would ask Americans if they truly believe or if they identified as more of a cultural thing. Some of the best questions I've been asked on faith and religion were by non religious Czechs.

---

This has already happened in places like Russia and Quebec.

Where people still call themselves Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic. But almost never go Church during the year. Don't read the Bible. Don't pray. And don't know much or care much about the actual theology of their faith.

They get Baptized, married, and buried in a religious service at Church and will still mark Christian on a census form…so in that way they are very similar to modern secular or reform Jews who act in a similar way.

---

Prompts the question what is the acceptable level of belief? Believing but not practicing? Is reading Bible and going to Church the true level of belief? I know many who would say yes, but is that a "pharacitical"(?) response? Is bearing good fruit, going to church or loving your neighbor? Going to Church and then making a ton of money, belief?

My opinion, no one can question their belief, as no one knows except for marking the form.

---

Some people identify as friends and then slander and undercut the other. They really aren't friends.

Some people identify as republicans but don't vote or speak like it (RINOs). They really aren't republicans.

Some people identify as independents but vote with democrats and caucus with democrats. They really aren't independents

Some people identify as married…. with everyone except their mistress. They really aren't married.

Some really aren't Christian
Some really aren't Jewish
Some really aren't Muslims

Some identify as _____ but are really secular.

---

The world is full of people that just blatantly don't believe and are proud of it. Here we have a segment of the population that says they believe (I have to think they want to believe, no law saying you must.) Then we hafve those that are all about "doing what is necessary to show they believe.) My logic:

• The last group doesn't need my guidance. They do the "right" things, whether it is real is for a higher power to answer.
• The proudly not believing is out of reach, they heard the message and denied it.
• The last group still identify, but are not willing to make the outward effort.

This last group is the group that we turn on? They want to believe, ostracizing them for not living up to the standard doesn't seem a productive way to help.

---

Christ didn't yell and scream at the rich young ruler. He told him what he needed to do and then let him decide.

The people Christ really got onto (snakes) were the hypocrites.

---

Let's define hypocrite. Is the person that identifies Christian and goes to Church on Christmas and Easter what he was talking about? Or the Pastor that guilts the widow out of her grocery money so he can live in a mansion? Or the Pastor committing adultry with someone that came for counseling? Or the pedifile Prest?

I belief the last three are the snakes.

---

Luke 20
46 "Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.
47 They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely."

Luke
46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

I think here w/o passages best demonstrate hypocrisy but, there are others.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Share your comments.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/the-collapse-of-faith-in-america/

(ps i posted before I read all of it.)

---

Science has closed the gap between ignorance and superstition quite allot in the past 2000 years. Enough for me to realize my 30 years of being a Christian was having blinders on to the factual knowledge that makes it clear that all religions are cultural and man-made. The perfect human without sin has never existed as we now know through DNA and fossil studies. We know we are primates with an advanced brain that has evolved over millions of years.
So no need to be saved from a fall of grace. Almost all of us have Neanderthal and one other human ancestor in us and that is just recent history.
I have no idea if there is a creator or not of this amazing universe that has hundreds of billions galaxies. Too much for a human brain to comprehend. I am 100 percent sure that all religions and faiths have nothing to do with a supernatural God, just man-made from days of old when that's how things unexplained needed an explanation. because pf a lack pf understanding and knowledge.
And that is just one of the over 50 reasons why I changed paths and live each day being the best I can be to everyone and cherish every moment I have here on this earth.
I understand the need for humans to have religion and faith, it is a comfort and from our earthly perspective an eternal life.is quite the treat. Most likely that's not happening or if it does you will be there with every living organism that has ever existed on this planet not to count all the other planets that surely have life on them.
I respect people's beliefs and understand why it is so important and I keep out of their faith business so to speak, unless they try to deny actual facts to defend their belief system.
Examples below.

I had a conversation with a person recently who believes the earth is flat, and after showing him an exact example and proof that it wasn't, he refused to see the facts. Thats when the conversation ended

I had a conversation with a friend who said her friend had a near dear experince amd saw angels lught etc etc. I told her that people have had the same experience when they fainted. I told her that science can actually induce a near death experience and explained the experiments that had been done..she refused to believe the facts and the conversation ended.



In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."

Oldbear83 said:

---

'Pharacies'?

---

The Pharisee went to the Pharmacy to complain about their Pharacies.